Diversity in the NFL

[Bonegavel]

This isn't a troll post, I am truly curious.

With all the talk about the lack of Black coaches etc., why isn't there a cry regarding other races, or, the complete lack of females?

I know this is a sensitive subject, but red flags always grab my attention when issues of quotas, for lack of a better word, come up in situations like this. I think it is interesting that one group usually grabs the issue and leaves behind all the other groups.

I personally think this issue is important, in that, no person should be purposely overlooked based on race etc., but shouldn't it be left up to the teams to decide this? I only mention this because I think Johnny Cochran was somehow involved in possibly formulating a law-suit of some sort.

thoughts?

[Ksyrup]

How many females and, say, Hispanics, are playing or coaching in football right now? I think that answers the question, doesn't it?

I applaud the goal of the minority interview requirements, but taking Detroit to task for the way they went about hiring Mooch is only going to cause a backlash against an otherwise good idea. He was the guy Detroit originally wanted two years ago, the guy they got won 5 games in two years, then the original guy they want becomes available, after leading his team within a couple of games of the championship. Detroit tried to play along with the rules, but from what I read, upwards of 5 black candidates refused to interview.

Is that Detroit's fault, that there just happened to be an obvious candidate? Is the decision to hire Mooch any worse than the 49'ers decision not to hire Cottrell? Are black candidates any better off after either process, since neither team hired a black coach and Cottrell became this year's Marvin Lewis (obviously qualified candidate who somehow lost out on a job he was destined for)?

For every righteous step forward people like Jesse Jackson and Johnnie Cochran take, they always take 3 self-righteous steps backward. That's why very few people take either of them seriously.

[rkmsuf]

I find it interesting that Dan Rooney is one of the ones leading the charge on this...I'd love to take a look at the composition of his staff and the organizations hiring practices over the years...

It's fine to want a fair process but is unlikely going to change the way people think or choose their coaches ultimately.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
How many females and, say, Hispanics, are playing or coaching in football right now? I think that answers the question, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't answer the question. You don't need to have played a sport to coach.

[The_herd]

The detriot situation is getting bad press for no reason. They wanted Mooch, Mooch wanted to be in detriot. Detriot made an attempt to follow league guildlines by contacting Denny Green, Blache from the bears, and a few other people. But, no one wanted to be in a situation where they were just going to end up as an "also ran" in the coaching search. What person wants to be contacted for a coaching job because the league is forcing them to.

The current setup is an improvement, however, this is going to be common when the team with the coaching vacancy knows from the start who they want, as I said earlier, no one wants interviewed for a job just so that team can finish the paperwork they have to file with the league.

[Ksyrup]

I said played OR coached. You need to know something about the sport to do either, don't you?

How many managers/coaches in any major professional league can you name me that were not either players or coaches before they became a major professional league manager/coach?

And, you DO need to have played the game at some point - whether it ended in college, high school, whatever - in order to be a coach. I doubt very few high school coaches do not have some level of playing experience. So how can you NOT expect the same from the top-level professionals?

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I said played OR coached. You need to know something about the sport to do either, don't you?

How many managers/coaches in any major professional league can you name me that were not either players or coaches before they became a major professional league manager/coach?

But this isn't the point. There is a cry for diversity, and just hiring more black coaches is selected diversity.

As far as knowing something about a sport before coaching, it could easily be argued that there are women out there that know just as much and could coach just as well as anyone in the league now.

I don't know anything about soccer (or care to know) and I certainly have never played it. But, I guarantee you I could follow it, study it and, eventually, coach it. I may wind up being the Jeff Kotite of soccer, but, given my devotion, I could do it.

Are you saying that only somebody who has participated in something can instruct others in it? A lot of coaching is mental and a lot of the principals are the same across the spectrum of sports. Also, there is no need to have played to understand the tactics.

[rkmsuf]

There are examples of very good coaches never to have played...see Gruden this year. What I found interesting was when I heard someone asked if they could name a black coach who never played the game. I can't think of one...

[The_herd]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
What I found interesting was when I heard someone asked if they could name a black coach who never played the game. I can't think of one...

I'm stumped

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
There are examples of very good coaches never to have played...see Gruden this year. What I found interesting was when I heard someone asked if they could name a black coach who never played the game. I can't think of one...

Technically, he was a backup QB at some small college, so he does have college ball on his resume. But, he is a great example for my argument, in that, he spent all of this time talking to the coaches, knowing he wasn't playing material. He used college football as his coaching classroom and the playing part was ancillary.

rkmsuf, I thought, from another post, that you do nothing but complain? What are you doing adding meaningful discussion? You disappoint me. ;-)

[henry296]

Originally posted by rkmsuf
I find it interesting that Dan Rooney is one of the ones leading the charge on this...I'd love to take a look at the composition of his staff and the organizations hiring practices over the years...

It's fine to want a fair process but is unlikely going to change the way people think or choose their coaches ultimately.

Without a lot of detail researching, the Steelers probably are as good as most.

Tony Dungy and Marvin Lewis were both Steeler assistants. The current defensive coordinator is African American - Tim Lewis, who up until this year was thought to be head coaching material.

Other current black assistants are Kenny Jackson - WR, John Mitchell - DL, and Darren Perry, DBs.

Todd

[rkmsuf]

rkmsuf, I thought, from another post, that you do nothing but complain? What are you doing adding meaningful discussion? You disappoint me. ;-)

I want to be on my best behavior for when Mr. Nibbles comes prancing in out of the fog...

PS - you suck and this thread sucks.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by rkmsuf


PS - you suck and this thread sucks.

That's the spirit.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by BoneGavel
But this isn't the point. There is a cry for diversity, and just hiring more black coaches is selected diversity.

As far as knowing something about a sport before coaching, it could easily be argued that there are women out there that know just as much and could coach just as well as anyone in the league now.

I don't know anything about soccer (or care to know) and I certainly have never played it. But, I guarantee you I could follow it, study it and, eventually, coach it. I may wind up being the Jeff Kotite of soccer, but, given my devotion, I could do it.

Are you saying that only somebody who has participated in something can instruct others in it? A lot of coaching is mental and a lot of the principals are the same across the spectrum of sports. Also, there is no need to have played to understand the tactics.

Neither you nor anyone else could coach in a top-tier professional league without having played the game (and I'm not talking about having played in that particular league, just having played at some advanced level) or having coached for some extended period of time. Jon Gruden did both. I don't know about Kotite, but jeez, come up with a better example than him!

A woman could very easily coach and/or play basketball and gain enough skills to translate that to the NBA. Football is unique in that very few women can play in an advanced football league or have the ability to gain coaching experience in football as well, so no, I do not think females can coach football, Goldie Hawn aside. Perhaps specialized areas such as kicking or conditioning, sure, but I would not feel comfortable hiring a female as an OL coach, for example. There's more to coaching than just textbook study.

[rkmsuf]

Part of the job requirement of coach is to inspire and motivate a team aside from X's and O's. Can a women do that for a men's team in football or basketball? Right or wrong that's doubtful.

PS - I think Parcells is one who at least never played a down. I still want to know of a black head coach who did not play the game.

[Ksyrup]

Again, I didn't say professional playing experience is necessary. Many guys went straight from playing in college to coaching, like Parcells:

"After a playing career that included stops at Colgate University and Wichita State University, Parcells began his coaching career in 1964 as a defensive assistant at Hastings College. He returned to Wichita State in 1965 as a defensive line coach before coming back east in 1966 to coach at Army (working in the same athletic department as Army basketball coach Bob Knight).

After four years at West Point, Parcells left for stints at Florida State, Vanderbilt and Texas Tech. His first head coaching position came at the Air Force Academy in 1978.

After completing his college apprenticeship, Parcells joined Ray Perkins' staff as an assistant coach with the New York Giants. He moved briefly for one season to the New England Patriots in 1980 as linebackers coach before returning to the Giants as defensive coordinator and linebackers coach, the position he held until taking over as head coach in 1983."

And of course we know the rest from there. That's a helluva lot of experience. I think it also explains, to an extent, why you haven't seen a black head coach rise solely through the coaching ranks - how many black contemporaries did people like Parcells have while working their way up through the ranks in the 60's and 70's? Probably a few, but nowhere near the number there are now. Assistant coaching positions held by blacks 30 years ago were probably at about the level that NFLhead coaching positions are held by blacks now - that is, not many. I think we'll start to see it happen, but "seasoning" a coach can take time, and clearly, blacks were not being afforded those opportunities years ago. But look into the future, and I think you'll see some opportunities just by the sheer number of black assistants out there.

[Fritz]

who gives a fuck about the race of the coaches (or players for that matter)? just watch the fucking game.

[Blackadar]

This thing with the Lions is really pissing me off. They wanted a certain guy, he came open on the market and they got him. Now the NFL wants to "investigate" their hiring process to see if minorities were considered?

I still think it smacks of quotaism, but I can see interviewing minorities if it was an open search, like the 49ers search. But shit, the Lions wanted Mooch. He was THE guy. So what the hell is all the crying about?

Stuff like this is what hardens people's perceptions of "racism" and turns them against affirimative action and any sort of help along racial lines. I know it pisses me off.

[EagleFan]

I agree with Blackadar on this one. If the Lions wanted one coach, and it was a minority coach and went after and got him there would be no issue.

Not to attach another issue with this but it goes back to a statement on the old board someone made about feeling uncomfortable when they heard black athletes being refered to as athletic. If your chosen field is athletics, than isn't it a compliment that you are athletic. A reference to throwback players was tied to being said about white athletes. Isn't that more of an insult to them. You're not really athletic, just gritty. I want my athletes to be athletic (regardless of color), lust like I want my surgeon to be a skilled surgeon, I don't want to hear "He really tries his best in there, leaves it all on the table, a real throwback."

I've also heard people complain when an announcer points out that a black athlete has a good head on his shoulders saying there is no need to point that out. If that statement is made about a white athlete than the complaint is that it's not made about black athletes. If it's made about a black athlete than there's a complaint that "It had to be pointed out."

Sorry, it's late and I'm getting tired of waiting on some of my seb site being transferred to another server. I think I'm just getting a little bit cranky. (Or maybe more than a little bit)

Okay, my thread hijack is over.

[oykib]

First thing, I don't agree with strict quotas in Affirmative Action. But let me ask you all to be honest. In the U.S. in 2003, do you really think that-- barring some kind of expected backlash-- that taking an equally qualified minority or white male candidate applying for just about any job: the minority candidate is gonna get it?

I would submit that in most situations that it wouldn't come down to the coin flip that it should.

That being said, this business with the Lions and Cowboys is stupid. There is no more qualified candidate than a proven successful NFL head coach to be an NFL head coach.

I think that these shennanigans distract people from the real issues.

Below is an interesting point/counterpoint about this issue on a local New York station.

http://wfan.com/chrismikeaudio/local...043184616.html

I agree in principle with Cotrell. People should in most situations be talked to. But the real issue is with college. As KSyrup pointed out with his Bio of Parcells: you can't get to be an NFL head coach without the requisite stops along the college line. It's just another way that universities exploit poor and, particularly, black athletes.

The call should be going out at the colleges. The pros don't have a great history. But you can't find much too shoot at in the very recent past on the NFL. They have done as much as you could reasonably expect over the last two years or so. At the very least, college is a more pressing issue that needs to be addressed.

[dread]

I think the NFL making an issue with Detroit is all smokescreen and they may even make Detroit a scapegoat just to appease whomever they are trying to appease. Im sure most black Detroit Lions fans could not be happier to get Mariucci and none of the black coaching canidates with maybe the exception of Willingham would have made them as happy. Why would the NFL have coaches being interviewed who would have no chance to get a job when a team is already set on who they want.

An example lets say that Cinncinati interviewed Bob Stoops and clearly was leaning to Bob Stoops because of his stature and college record, do you really think that many other canidates minority or not would want to interview for the position. In fact everybody is praising Cinncinnati for hiring Lewis when in all reality they wanted to hire Mularkey but he wanted a less flexible contract for the team to dump him early and they went with Lewis , not thier first choice. So very easily the team could have been at scrutiny for not hiring Marvin lewis.

The only hiring that I question at all was jack del Rio, but because they at least brought in a black canidate as a token interview that seemed to be enough for the NFL. What Hypocrisy. If the lions wanted Doug Williams and interviewed no one else then Jessie Jackson would have no problem at all with it. There are many more minority assistants in the NFL than 10 years ago and with the numbers of assistants at all time high eventually this will create more minority head coaches in the long run.

The numbers being looked at are skewed as black players to white players you have to look at over the last 10 years the increase in minority coaching assistants has increased but prior to that the numbers were much lower and so there is a limited number in relation that have coached for an extended amount of time in the NFL .

The NFL should push for diversity , but not just for the sake of diversity the best man should be the one to get the job, no quotas just look at the best canidates and make a choice.

[JW]

Imagine a thread that, with a few exceptions, actually has remained on topic and reached a pretty good consensus. I think the consensus is that Detroit didn't do anything wrong, and that although the NFL is right to push for more minority coaches, that the Detroit hiring has nothing to do with racism. It makes the NFL look stupid to push the issue, but then that is the problem with racial politics. It is so easy to move from trying to do the right thing to doing the wrong thing in the name of 'racial justice.' It reminds me of the extortionist tactics used by the likes of Jesse Jackson and so-called environmental racism, i.e., you can't put that factory in the poor black neighborhood, put it somewhere else. So the factory goes somewhere else and that community gets the jobs, while the poor community that didn't get the factory gets 'justice' but no jobs. Meanwhile, the likes of Jesse gets lots of publicity and brags about how he kept the bad old factory away.