Military History: Decisive battles that turned the tide

[ACStrider]

Hehe...as a Texan I have to say the Alamo. It was a "loss" but a turning point at the same time. Winning the battle at the expense of 10-1 casulties is certainly enough to motivate the opposing side and stall any further offensive. If not the Alamo then the battle of San Jacinto.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by ColtCrazy
Great points Fritz. Combine 1 and 3 and Hitler's big mistake was launching his Russian offensive too late in the year and changing his tactics midway. Had he started a few months earlier, like May, and then concentrated on Moscow, Germany probably would have taken it and still had time left in the year before winter to turn south.
One of the classic world war pictures of Germany's lack of winter gear was one of russian laughing at German whicker-like boots.

This still leaves Leningrad and the troops not quartered in what we presume to be still standing cities. Even parts of Russia to the south could be deathly cold.

I do agree that starting in June was a terrible mistake

About declaring war on the US, would the US not have got into it anyway, or would they have concentrated on Japan alone? I'd like to think the US would have gotten involved anyway.

Oh, the US probably would have gotten involved at some point, but perhaps not. If we were fully focused on the "yellow peril" the war in Europe might not have been an easy sell for Roosevelt. As it was, Europe First, was not the obvious policy.

A non declaration would have atleast delayed the entry of the US into the war. enough delay could have kept the allies out of NW Africa and Italy until 44.

And again, for arguments sake is invading Poland really a mistake, considering Germany's initial successes? Maybe more of a French mistake for not attacking Germany while they were preoccupied.

Absolutely. This is the "one step over the line" that starts the general war.

One thing I forgot to add to my lists was "treating the western soviet lands like conquerors and not liberators." Liberated Belorussians and Ukrainians could have made willing fascist cohorts.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

You May Be Owed
Unclaimed Money
To Find Out, Enter Your Last Name Here:

Really?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by ACStrider
Hehe...as a Texan I have to say the Alamo. It was a "loss" but a turning point at the same time. Winning the battle at the expense of 10-1 casulties is certainly enough to motivate the opposing side and stall any further offensive. If not the Alamo then the battle of San Jacinto.

You know all the years I have been here as a native Texan, I have never been to the Alamo. Thanks for reminding me.

[GoldenEagle]

I have been to the Alamo and I must say that it is a neat little place. You can still feel the tension there today

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I have always wanted to go to The Alamo and feel the tension that I heard permiates through places of significance .
Maybe someday I will visit this hollowed ground and feel it for myself .

[ACStrider]

The thing that caught my attention about the Alamo is how small it was. It lives up to such a large myth that it's easy to picture it as this huge fortress or something. But when you actually visit, it's hard to picture that a major batle actually took place there. It's strange walking around in that area of San Antonio because it's such a peaceful and beautiful city. And then you come across the Alamo where it's a strange mixture of beauty and the ghosts of the past. It's startling and eerie and really gives you pause.

[Fritz]

didn't they move the alamo?

[GoldenEagle]

I think it being in downtown San Antonio helps its causes. It is a small buidling, but one that I was so impressed by. But then again, I am a big history buff. My mom and sister didnt share my passion.

[Fritz]

a battlefield to see is the Custer Battlefield at little bighorn.

[Mountain]

The landing at Inchon during the Korean "conflict." McArthur's last great masterstroke.

[sachmo71]

The Alamo is smaller than it was during the battle...the part you see today is the Chapel. The entire compound that surrounded the Chapel no longer exists.

[ACStrider]

Ah, nice call (and pic) Sachmo. It does make a lot more sense. It's been a while since I was down to SA, I really should make another drip down there sometime...maybe ctch a Spurs-Mavs game if a ticket's available. =) I remember that there's another spanish mission/fort in the area that is really big, but I can't remember the name.

Golden Eagle - I guess I'm a little lucky. History has been something that I've always grown up with. My dad is a trivia magnet (no joke...don't play Trivial Pursuit against him...you'll lose). I've seriously considered buying him a ticket to LA so that he could try out for Jeopardy, but I digress. He easily could teach college level (and frankly knows more then most history professors) but he needs a doctorate if he wants to do that. Growing up with this background made it easy to enjoy and study history. He's probably the best teacher that I had in high school, and I had some pretty good teachers.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yeah I agree about the feeling of tension. I have been to Hawaii and the memorial, it is very eerie.

On a semirelated note if you have a chance to come up this way, check out the JFK Memorial and the book depository. It is the same kind of thing every time I go over there.

[ACStrider]

Pardon my ignorance here, but is the JFK Memorial in Dallas? I'm probably moving to Dallas next fall. If so, I would love to catch that piece of our history.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yeah. Here is a link to some stuff in Dallas along with the memorial, but the pictures dont really do it justice.

http://www.visionsdfw.com/v_VirtDFW/pois.htm

[Chief Rum]

Thanks for reminding me, HFP. I have never been to Alamo (want to someday), but I was having trouble identifying with the eerie tension you guys were talking about.

You mentioning the Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor reminded me, since I visited there years ago. And, yes, I remember that very well. Seeing parts of the Arizona through the water was very offputting, and I was definitely struck by the feeling of being in a place of history. Tragic history, but history.

I can't remember for sure, but isn't it true that the same 1000 men who died trapped in the hulls of the Arizona are still down there, and that it has been named an official burial site (never to be used again, of course)?

Chief Rum

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yes the Arizona was never broken into. Where it sits is where it was sunk.

If I remember, in 1950 a flagpole was erected on top of it and Eisenhower later made it a memorial with the plaque, then they finished the building sometime in the early 60's. The building is bow-shaped like an old conquistador.

If anyone else ever has a chance to go to Hawaii it would be worthwhile to go there.

[Leonidas]

Nova recently did a special on the Alamo. They used the journals of Santa Anna's second in command, who said some things that defied conventional history. Like that many people were captured, to include Davy Crockett. He claimed Crockett was later executed. He made these claims to denounce Santa Anna, whom he disliked.

Naturally, many Texans don't like this notion. While the archeologists could neither prove nor disprove the whole Crockett thing they did use several obscure details from his journal and found they could disprove none of them. As a matter of fact, they discovered many things previously unknown about the Alamo based on his writings. They also had some historians who said the defense of the Alamo was actually poorly conceived and they should have been able to hold out longer but had one wall poorly defended.

Still, made for a great rallying cry and is a unique part of our history.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Well Discovery Channel has a special on the ALAMO tonight at 9 00 Debunking certain things and stuff .

[ACStrider]

Well, when you're outnumbered at a rate of 2000 to 189, it's really hard to imagine that it could be defended better then it was. They had a weak wall but still managed to take down roughly 1,600 attackers. I would be interested to hear how the Nova documentary would account for the surviving women's stories which stated that no men were left alive. Interesting theories, though.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Ive heard Urban Legends that some defenders actually escaped or were captured and let go .

[AgPete]

Was it a top ranking officer? I thought a private (or the Mexican Army equivalent) also wrote stories of Alamo survivors. I know one historian brought this information out a while ago and it pissed off Texan historians. Texas has its own version of the Daughters of the American Revolution but they concentrate on Texas history. I want to say the historian was even sued by them. If I recall, didn't he say one of the victims had a racoon skin hat and that was why people thought it might be Davy Crockett?

Originally posted by ACStrider
Pardon my ignorance here, but is the JFK Memorial in Dallas? I'm probably moving to Dallas next fall. If so, I would love to catch that piece of our history.

You should definitely check it out. I went there once. It's on the same floor of the Texas Schoolbook Depository where Oswald set up. It was eerie standing right next to where Lee Harvey Oswald shot the President. What I remember most though is a quote from LBJ pasted on one of the walls in which he confesses that he believes there is a good chance more than one shooter was involved and that we will probably never know the truth.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

I dont remember but my History teacher in HS told me to keep an open mind and told us about possible survivors.If anyone has any info or sites please post a link .

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

If I remember correctly I think it was a lower ranking officer (a Lieutenant perhaps) that wrote it in his diary as well as a few from the enlisted /conscripted ranks .

[WSUCougar]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
You mentioning the Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor reminded me, since I visited there years ago. And, yes, I remember that very well. Seeing parts of the Arizona through the water was very offputting, and I was definitely struck by the feeling of being in a place of history. Tragic history, but history.

For those who might be interested, here's a link to the National Park Service website:

U.S.S. Arizona Memorial

[JPhillips]

Inchon was definately the turning point in the first phase of the Korean War, but the heroic defense around the Pusan perimeter was more important. The troops there were constantly shifted from hot spot to hot spot to buy enough time for a US counter attack. At first they were left without anything to stop NK tanks and were basically buying time by giving their lives. The troops, both US and ROK, that kept the NKs from overrunning the Korean peninsula were the decisive factor until the Chinese got into the game.

[Anrhydeddu]

American Civil War:

The Battle of Antietam was the turning for the South (negative)

and the capture of Atlanta which led to the re-election of Lincoln was the turning point for the North (positive)

[GoldenEagle]

This thread has aroused my curiosity on the Alamo. I will try to do some research later and post my findings.

[Leonidas]

[quote]Originally posted by AgPete
[b]Was it a top ranking officer? I thought a private (or the Mexican Army equivalent) also wrote stories of Alamo survivors. I know one historian brought this information out a while ago and it pissed off Texan historians.


As I stated, it was Santa Anna's number two, his second ranking officer who wrote the journal. I'd say he was high ranking. His intent was to discredit Santa Anna, whom he perceived as his rival. The discredit was from the fact that executing these men was a dishonrable act in the eyes if the Latino soldier.

The theory was not proved, but it was also not disproved. Obscure facts from the journal were proven correct, and no obscure facts were disproven. Thus the new hypothesis is that since lessor facts were proven true, and none disproven, the journal could be considered by some as legit. Just the way historians work.

As for the JFK thing, I highly recommend it. Outstanding exhibit. If you go in with an open mind it dispells many of those conspiracy theories. Lots of hard facts that are hard to argue with. Besides, I can clearly remember a somewhat psycopathtic cohort I visited it with who was so ecstatic that he could exclaim to the world he ate a hot dog on the grassy knoll.