Need Some More CD-Related Help (Link To A New MP3 Inside!)

[Ben E Lou]

OK, things are now coming down to the wire. I received what we'll call here the "beta" version of the CD this morning--all musicians have done their thing, and now its just a matter of tweaking levels, subtracting things I don't like, etc. I feel VERY good about the production on 9 of the 10 songs, but I'm a little ambivalent about "Cry Of My Heart." Its pretty different. I kind of like it, but I'm not sure about it. I've uploaded the "beta" version of this song. I'd LOVE to hear your thoughts and constructive criticism on the production. The acoustic guitar and lead vocals aren't going to change at this point, but everything else is negotiable.

Cry Of My Heart Beta Version

The above linked-to MP3 file is (c) and (p) 2003, Ben Lewis.

[Craptacular]

Hmm, I think there's just too much going on, taking away from your voice and the guitar. What is that little beep sound starting at 0:08 that repeats a couple of times? I don't think it needs the rattlesnake sound at 0:35. I like the background during the chorus. Starting around 2:15, there are a few drum beats that just don't seem to fit. Around 2:22-2:32, there's another set of beeps/pops (??) every 2 seconds or so that just sounds weird to me. There they are at 3:00 again (sorry to say I don't know what that sound is).

I like some of the additions, but I really like the guitar and your voice and don't think anything should distract the listener from that.

[Ben E Lou]

Crap:

Thanks for the detail! As for specifics, I have NO idea what that little beep sound is. You heard the last version I had heard before today! The other nine songs I feel are very solid. This is the only one that I'm not sold on. Your comments echo some of my gut feelings on it.

[Ben E Lou]

Others?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I think your music is very good man, so don't judge it to hard... It is very listenable, I will buy a CD when it comes out....

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by A-Husker-4-Life
I think your music is very good man, so don't judge it to hard... It is very listenable, I will buy a CD when it comes out....

I appreciate that, but don't feel like it is being judged harshly, especially from a production standpoint. I had next-to-nothing to do with anything beyond the acoustic guitar and lead vocals.

[Anrhydeddu]

So much for making the music YOU want to make.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
So much for making the music YOU want to make.

Actually the problem is I don't have a freakin' CLUE about production. I HAVE made the music I want to make in terms of lyrics, vocals and guitar, but I know I don't want that song to be just guitar and vocals. I just don't know what needs to be added and what doesn't. That's why I hired a producer who I know and trust, and I'd say it has worked out. Like I said, nine out of the ten songs on the CD I unequivocally LOVED the moment I heard them. This was the only one that I'm not sure about.

[Bishop]

The lyrics, vocals and guitar are all good, pretty easy to get into... but some of the background sounds take too much attention off of all that and seem out of place.

Craptacular pointed out a few..

1:29-1:32, the little noise in the background seems kind of out of place... atleast to me.

I'd agree with the rattling noise not being needed also..

mostly though, just a few of them set off the rythem because you hear one noise then never hear it again... instead you hear some other noise an so forth... don't wanna over do it.

But i'm sure alot of it is just preference too as I listened to some of the original songs you posted, without any of the background an really liked those.

If your really not sure about the song, I'd say pick out the parts you like best and try a cut with just those an see what you think.

[SaintAnselm]

I pretty much agree with what has already been said. I absolutely loved the song before and now I am not so sure. There is just too much else going on. Beyond that, a lot of the background stuff just does not seem to fit in with the vocals and guitar the way it should.

[BishopMVP]

I like the chorus in the second version better, but for the song itself I agree with what others have said. I don't mind the drum beat or the violin in the backround, but all the other things like the rattle and the bells/chimes in the backround sounded funny coming in for a little like they did. I didn't hear any beeps like C-Tac, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by BishopMVP
I didn't hear any beeps like C-Tac, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

"Beep" isn't a great description, but I know what he's talking about. Sounds like a xylophone maybe?

[BishopMVP]

Maybe what he said are beeps are what I called bells/chimes. I think Xylophone is right, but I don't have a great ear. I'll agree they are annoying.

I like this one better, but for the most part I enjoy more up-tempo music, so take it for what it's worth. Definitely looking forward to the CD.

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by SkyDog
"Beep" isn't a great description, but I know what he's talking about. Sounds like a xylophone maybe?

That could very well be it.

[AnalBumCover]

Drums kick off too complex in the beginning. Maybe build up to it, starting with a simple high-hat riff to complement the guitar for the first few stanzas, then throw in the more complex beat once you get to the meat of the song (about where that rattlesnake attacks).

Some drumming in the up-beat just doesn't sound right for some reason.

Hope this helps.

[AnalBumCover]

dola.

Chorus kicks a$$. I like the touch of the vocal background there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by SkyDog Actually the problem is I don't have a freakin' CLUE about production. I HAVE made the music I want to make in terms of lyrics, vocals and guitar, but I know I don't want that song to be just guitar and vocals. I just don't know what needs to be added and what doesn't.

From the FWIW department -- I know pretty well what you mean. I have zero musical ability whatsoever, and only the most basic of skill at a production board, but have occasionally been in position professionally to have to use "my ear".

That's what I call the ability to know what I think/want something to sound like, if only I can describe it well enough.

And that's the tricky part, the part that makes a good relationship with the "texperts" (say it like "experts") a must for me if I'm going to be happy with the finished product.

Unless there's a real time crunch pushing you, spend as much time as you need & can afford to get what you're looking for.

Break the track down to the basics, the parts you seem pretty happy with, and talk your way through it in-studio, adding elements one at a time. Be honest, if you hate something, dismiss it, it's not personal so just shoot from the hip. If you like an element here or there but it's not quite right, earmark it and keep going. When you like something, keep it then revisit the ones you filed aside.

It's kinda like building a great Dagwood sammich, except you get to sample the flavors in combination & start over until you get it just right.

Dang, I'm babbling, ain't I?

[Draft Dodger]

well, that was pretty awful from a production standpoint.

there's just way too much going on there, especially for a song that's got a rather busy guitar part.

drums are "ok" - they seem a too much at times, but I think that's more because of all the other stuff on there. that said, sounds like there's some bongo-type drums in addition to the standard drums, and that's too much. I'd ditch the bongos.

bass is good - works well here.

the 2nd guitar - the one that's doing on the little breaks and fill-ins; I would kill all of that - it is extremely distracting, especially in the very beginning which comes out sounding like mud. I think this is the biggest offender in terms of making this song too busy.

I don't mind the background vocals on the chorus, but they are mixed way too high compared to your voice.

as for all the other bells and whistles - the problem is that there's just too many of them; sounds like the producer just got carried away. some are okay (the violinish stuff, for example).

if you could only make a few changes, get rid of that 2nd guitar and that bizarre beepy thing that people mentioned, and I think this turns out very nicely.

[BigDPW]

I agree that their is too much going on and especially on the drums they seem to be doing way to much too often... They basically take over the song at points when they should definetely not be the focus...

I think overall the song could just use a little toning down on all of the secondary stuff b/c it is distracting from the "meat" of the song... My analogy is that you are proud of this great main course that you created but someone goes overboard on the veggies, desert, and appetizer and then your main course doesn't look so good anymore???

I really liked the acoustic version of this song and agree that it need "a little something" but not all of that...

Thanks for letting us be a part of your journey with this CD it has been alot of fun and very enlightening about the way it works!

[Ben E Lou]

Interesting update. She Who Must Be Obeyed loves it almost just the way it is. She wants to get rid of the "rattlesnake" and some of the "beeps". She absolutely LOVES the 2nd guitar doing the breaks and fill-ins. Considering that we're in this together financially (Can you say, "home equity line???"), I definitely need to let her have her say on this one. Ed and I have done some things on 2 or 3 other songs that she wasn't a big fan of, so I probably need to let her lead on this one, especially considering that there are large parts of the production that I DO really like.

The other thing that just occurred to me is that y'all haven't heard the rest of the CD. This song is definitely different-sounding from everything else. The rest of it has an acoustic/drum/bass/vocal focus. Jen pointed out that she thinks it is a nice change of pace. So, there'll be some changes to it, but probably not wholesale ones. I'll definitely sort through all of the suggestions here. Y'all keep 'em coming! Ed and I will be talking at lunch Monday.

[Ben E Lou]

bump for those that missed this stuff over the weekend...

[Craptacular]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Interesting update. She Who Must Be Obeyed loves it almost just the way it is. She wants to get rid of the "rattlesnake" and some of the "beeps".

Well, you know I like those two ideas!

[Craptacular]

Just to clarify ... to me, at least, it sounds like you have the same instrument (xylophone or whatever) for a few notes around 1:30 while you're singing "I want to be true to myself" (again, I may be wrong). It sounds nice in that instance, where it blends in with the lyrics and other backgrounds.

I just listened to it a couple of times in a row, and if you make those couple of changes, I'll buy the single.

[Bee]

I agree with SWMBO. I like the 2nd guitar, but get rid of some of the other "sounds". I think if you clean that up, the 2nd guitar will be a little more natural and not stand out quite so much. With all the other sounds, you start listening to the background and the 2nd guitar stands out more than it would otherwise.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Bee
I agree with SWMBO.

...which is good policy in general, so I've learned over the past 4 1/2 years.

[AnalBumCover]

bump.

I'm kinda curious how our suggestions played out in the re-edit of this song. How about a short clip SkyDog? Or are you going to make us wait until the release?

ABC

[Ben E Lou]

Wow. A big bump there Album Cover.

At any rate, the tweaks were subtle, but I think good ones. Ed cleaned up the first part of the song. It doesn't sound nearly as "busy" any more. The level of that first "rattle" was dropped to match the others. I also had him increase the volume on the bass just a hair. I'm now VERY pleased with this one. There is a clip at www.benelou.com

Thanks again for your help. Everything is finished on my end now. I showed the final artwork to the guys at the OOTP party last night. I was told that my package now looks even more professional and crisp. The CD has been mastered, and is in the replication process at Disc Makers right now. They have an estimated completion date of March 18th, which means I should receive the CD's a week or so before the March 29th release date. Lookin' good.

--Ben
--Ben