Werewolf LXXXVIII: Game Thread

[Danny]

Im going to be late now, so see you guys later

[RendeR]

Ok, one by one, I'm going to try and look at these from a neutral standpoint:

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I'll make the objective case here:

1. Telle's "reveal" was fishy from the start. She threw it out at the last second and definitely hasn't acted like she was truly Gabriel after the reveal.

Revealing at the last minute is presicely what a roled character should do. You never reveal until you absolutely have to. As for "acting like gabriel" thats far too subjective to be worth anything here.

Originally Posted by RealDeal

2. She refuses to give any detail at all corraborating that she is Gabriel. I've gone freakin open kimodo. Now I understand the rationale of not wanting to give information to wolves, but if you're up on the block, and you've already revealed, seems like you should be able to come up with something. She can't because she isn't Gabriel.

OK first off, if you notice the vote count, she really Isn't on the block yet. you are, deeply, so your reasoning for her to reveal more about herself falls flat here. if she had as many votes as you or anyone else I'd say you might be right, however think about the role in question, why would someone reveal anything at all about what amounts to the most powerful good role in the game? That just doesn't make any sense, especially if it afects the other roled players.

Originally Posted by RealDeal

3. Daddy Torgo claims to have used an ability to determine whether or not telle's "I am Gabriel" statement was true AND IT WASN'T!!! If you think I'm lying, then you have to assume he is too.

I stated this before, this is a FALSE statement. DT does not have to be lying. She could well be another angel or even Lucifer. She could be ANYONE. The only people that will know for certain are the angels and Lucifer, if she's Lucifer, Gabriel's got her by the short hairy ones, if she's Gabriel Lucifer can't come after her without giving himself up. If she's just another angel claiming she's gabriel protects the real gabriel.

Originally Posted by RealDeal

4. There is no rationale out there for voting for me other than the fact I "jumped on Telle". Damn straight I jumped on her: I know she isn't Gabriel. You can go back to when she "revealed"; even then I tried to hint what I knew with the "sounds fishy to me" post I made.

[/quote]

Actually the rational for voting you STARTED with your unreal overreaction to telle. Since then you've compounded it with overly intricate reasonings and admitions of lying to us all and faking work.

overall you've really screwed yourself here. Even if you're right nothing you've done thus far has suported that because of your reactions and your scheming.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Danny

Vote Telle

I think it's clear she is not Gabriel and I find her play today more suspicious than RealDeal's. If It were me and I was revealed as St. Gabriel. I would be acting very different from her. I also don't think Real Deal reveals that early if he is a demon.

But you think A Demon is going to reveal as the most powerful player in the game on day 1 when there are at least 4 other players that can refute the fact?

I just don't see that.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Danny

Who knows, like I said hopefully it turns out alright. I just don't see a wolf pushing so hard for Telle and revealing when they could probably night kill her.

I do agree than Real Deal's style isn't helping his argument, but I am ignoring that and simply going on who I think is more likely based on what we know.

All we know is what people are saying, there is nothing to verify anyones claims. realdeal's explanation of his activities yesterday are about as convoluted a story as I've ever heard on here. its disjointed and makes no real sense.

I'm a little perplexed at the thought that Telle is an angel(whichever one) and realdeal is falsly revealing as micah to try and draw out the real micah so they can whammy 2 angels in 3 days.

thats why I'm more willing to give telle another day on the trusted side right now. If we lynch micah and he's telling the truth, then we have telle dead to rights tomorrow without any real question.

If we lynch micah and he's a demon, then we have You, DT and a couple others to look much closer at.

[RendeR]

Lynch realdeal X2 in the above post, not micah

[jeheinz72]

Well, I'm out of here for the night. I should be on tomorrow, but I actually may have jury duty and only be on very briefly.

[RealDeal]

She says that she's Gabriel. However you interpret DT's statement, he says she's not Gabriel. If she were a human, why would she lie and say she was Gabriel. If she's an angel who's not Gabriel, why would she say she was Gabriel. I find it hard to believe you are trying to be objective when you essentially ignore that.

And to your statement that why would she reveal when four people would say she's lying, well, I'm one of those four people and look what good it's done me. Do you need every single angel to reveal themselves at once for you to believe it.

The reason why I'm frustrated is that I give specific information and there's DT who corroborates that, at a minimum the other person is lying, and yet people are piling on me. There's real evidence that Telle's the wolf. The arguments for me have none. For me, it's like no good deed goes unpunished.

And as far as, well if we're wrong we can get the right one tomorrow, yeah that's true but wouldn't you prefer to get the right one first? My ability to guard one part of the cathedral per night from sabotage seems important enough to at least base the decision on facts and evidence and things like that.

[RealDeal]

vote telle
vote telle
vote telle

This is using my baker ability to have an extra turn.

[DaddyTorgo]

ok - i'm back

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

She says that she's Gabriel. However you interpret DT's statement, he says she's not Gabriel. If she were a human, why would she lie and say she was Gabriel. If she's an angel who's not Gabriel, why would she say she was Gabriel. I find it hard to believe you are trying to be objective when you essentially ignore that.

And to your statement that why would she reveal when four people would say she's lying, well, I'm one of those four people and look what good it's done me. Do you need every single angel to reveal themselves at once for you to believe it.

The reason why I'm frustrated is that I give specific information and there's DT who corroborates that, at a minimum the other person is lying, and yet people are piling on me. There's real evidence that Telle's the wolf. The arguments for me have none. For me, it's like no good deed goes unpunished.

And as far as, well if we're wrong we can get the right one tomorrow, yeah that's true but wouldn't you prefer to get the right one first? My ability to guard one part of the cathedral per night from sabotage seems important enough to at least base the decision on facts and evidence and things like that.

Fact 1: there is no proof, as you say that anyone is being honest, you, DT or Telle. That being the case there is nothing to go on beyond appearances. You come out guns blazing and frankly, thats wolfish. If you're telling the truth, perhaps this will be a good lesson for the next game

Fact 2: You Lied to everyone already, why should we listen to you again? Why such an elaborate story about what you were doing and why? Occamz razor, simplest answer is usually right, your story is about as far from simple as it gets.

Fact 3: You admitted faking work on the walls. Even if you needed to fake work for a GOOD reason, you would have known better than to fake work on the ONE thing that we MUST finish. You chose to fake work that delayed us even further, thats not a good decision at best and its a deliberate sabotage at worst. I'm a bit of a pessimist, guess where I think it falls?

Fact 4: You reveal as probably the second MOST important angel. if the angels had to decide on one of them to reveal themselves to refute telle it sure as hell wouldn't be Micah. If you are Micah, again terrible decision on your part, that would make 2 or 3 so far and I don't think ANYONE makes that many bad choices in one sitting. If you're not micah you're trolling to get him to reveal to pick off another high profile person.

As for your opening argument, I've answered that already, twice. Revealing as Gabriel as a good player if she is NOT gabriel keeps the heat off the real gabriel for more time. revealing as gabriel as any of the demon is suicide on day 1.


You can keep going if you want, but the over the top play you put on is a bad move even if you're right. There is more in what you've posted that sounds like a bad wolf covering his ass than there is of anything that incriminates telle further.

lastly, there is the fact that reveals tend to go first reveal trusted second one lynched (in my memory anyway) so thats going against you as well.

You've done your part. We'll see where the chips fall. If I'm wrong it won;t be the first time and we get her tomorrow. Either way its shiny.

[DaddyTorgo]

RealDeal - all I've said is that Telle isn't Gabriel. Maybe she is the real Micah for all I know?

As for your answer to why any other angel would reveal as Gabriel, it's simple: Gabriel is the only angel we know for sure is in the game, just as Lucifer is the only demon we know for sure is in the game. In order to mask what additional powers both sides have at play, I would fully expect them to all reveal as either Gabriel/Lucifer.

In this light, your reveal as Micah is interesting. Because now you have given the demons that information, when you could have just as easily counter-revealed as Gabriel.

As for why I voted you versus Telle at this point - RendeR laid out a nice looking case, and I wanted to get a vote in vefore I left work for home, just to try to spur discussion and interaction.

[RendeR]

And I'm also confused as to what specifi information you've given us that DT has corroborated? I don't recall that.

[RendeR]

Anyone got a vote count?

[DaddyTorgo]

I think he's referring to Telle's identity?

I'd love to see a vote count, that's for sure

[RealDeal]

I didn't reveal as Gabriel because I'm not Gabriel. If I had revealed as Gabriel and the real Gabriel had gotten lynched or wolf-killed, I would have been lynched instantly. I figured (perhaps incorrectly) that if you are going to reveal you should do full disclosure. Time will tell if that was the right thing to do.

[Telle]

Vote count as of 465:

6 - RealDeal - RendeR (275), DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437)
4 - Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458)
2 - Alan T - PurdueBrad (286), PurdueBrad (286)

[DaddyTorgo]

interesting vote distribution there

[Telle]

Work as of post 467:

walls - 2 - Pass(282), Pass(282)
carpentry - 4 - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419),
artwork - 2 - Hoops(315), Jackal(318),

[The Jackal]

WORK ON CARPENTRY

[The Jackal]

I don't have a good read on either RD or Telle, so I think my action is best put towards building the cathedral.

[Telle]

Remaining actions as of 468:

Jackal(1), Chief Rum(2), Daddy T(1), KWhit (2), Alan T(2), Jonathan(2), Render(1)

[Telle]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

interesting vote distribution there

Of course, it's also assuming that RealDeal really can place three votes. We must consider this as suspect as the rest of his claims.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Lynch realdeal X2 in the above post, not micah

I've only skimmed since the afternoon, but this seems like a big mix-up. Render, do you believe RealDeal is Michah? Like I said, I've only skimmed, so I have probably missed stuff -- do you think he is Michah and is lying about Telle, or that he is lying about being Michah?

[PurdueBrad]

I'm back. I'm glad to hear that we now know of at least one of the work fakes, and that limits the options further. I'm not ready yet to sacrifice Telle because there was never the angel run on her for a fake reveal that I expected. I could be wrong though and they are being much more subtle. I'm still sticking with Alan T. with my vote although it won't carry from the looks of it.

[Passacaglia]

Bear in mind, I'm already set on doing work, so I can't vote. No need to convince me of anything.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

Btw, so far we don't have a whole lot of work getting done. And two people working have unvoted so if they vote again they won't be doing their work.

This does not make sense to me.

[DaddyTorgo]

I can still do work with my other action. I've been holding onto it.

[hoopsguy]

I had a chance to read a lot of this before leaving the office today. I thought RealDeal was significantly more likely to be an angel than Telle then and I have not changed my opinion over the last couple of hours or the last page or so of posts.

RealDeal is correct that he challenged Telle's reveal right away.

Last question for him if he is still around between now and deadline - why did you wait for DT to come out with his statement if you are an angel and knew that Telle was lying? If you were already prepared to reveal your angel role then why wait?

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I'm back. I'm glad to hear that we now know of at least one of the work fakes, and that limits the options further. I'm not ready yet to sacrifice Telle because there was never the angel run on her for a fake reveal that I expected. I could be wrong though and they are being much more subtle. I'm still sticking with Alan T. with my vote although it won't carry from the looks of it.

I can tell you, Brad, on behalf of the angels, we would have been insane if we had all revealed ourselves at once. We thought one person calling out the fake reveal would be sufficient. No self-respecting team of angels or demons or wolves or anyone would reveal everyone at one time.

[RendeR]

I don't believe he is Micah. I screwed up the names in my post, just replace micah in the post above that one with realdeal.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I can tell you, Brad, on behalf of the angels, we would have been insane if we had all revealed ourselves at once. We thought one person calling out the fake reveal would be sufficient. No self-respecting team of angels or demons or wolves or anyone would reveal everyone at one time.

Exactly. I'd only expect them to have one wolf come after me strongly for the lynch.

[RendeR]

I'll post my last action right before deadline based on wether or not its needed as a vote. I've made my bed and my case against RD and I'll ride it out. If I'm wrong I'll apologize all around, but I don't believe I am on this one.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I don't believe he is Micah. I screwed up the names in my post, just replace micah in the post above that one with realdeal.

I don't think you make that mistake if you really think he is lying.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I had a chance to read a lot of this before leaving the office today. I thought RealDeal was significantly more likely to be an angel than Telle then and I have not changed my opinion over the last couple of hours or the last page or so of posts.

RealDeal is correct that he challenged Telle's reveal right away.

Last question for him if he is still around between now and deadline - why did you wait for DT to come out with his statement if you are an angel and knew that Telle was lying? If you were already prepared to reveal your angel role then why wait?

I'm curious hoops, what makes you think RD is "significantly" more likely to be telling the truth? He's lied to us already and faked work on the walls instead of faking something less vital. Why do you believe him?

[hoopsguy]

Hey Dubb!

[RealDeal]

We were prepared to reveal one angel to take care of Telle. If you notice prior to my reveal, I'm coming on stronger and stronger, but holding off, hoping there's still a chance to avoid a reveal. I did not know DT was going to come out. Once he did, at first I thought that people would instantly just
do the obvious thing: lynch Telle. I came out quickly, hoping to encourage that. However, I was not prepared that Render would go off on his tangent and target me (I actually don't think Render is a demon). At soon as I realized that, I decided to do a full reveal immediately; I figured if I waited longer, it would look too suspicious.

Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I would have played it a lot cooler after DT busted Telle. I should have been more patient.

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I had a chance to read a lot of this before leaving the office today. I thought RealDeal was significantly more likely to be an angel than Telle then and I have not changed my opinion over the last couple of hours or the last page or so of posts.

RealDeal is correct that he challenged Telle's reveal right away.

Last question for him if he is still around between now and deadline - why did you wait for DT to come out with his statement if you are an angel and knew that Telle was lying? If you were already prepared to reveal your angel role then why wait?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I don't think you make that mistake if you really think he is lying.

Eh? oh so now I'm lying about who I am too? I have corroboration for who I am, why would I lie about this situation? I have nothing to gain?

[Alan T]

Just got home. I have to play catchup on the thread and also have a BBCF sim to run. Is there a recent vote count? Am I still in the lead, or have people reconsidered that option?

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm curious hoops, what makes you think RD is "significantly" more likely to be telling the truth? He's lied to us already and faked work on the walls instead of faking something less vital. Why do you believe him?

Because I think his actions are more consistent.
- he did immediately question the reveal
- DT has indicated that Telle lied in her reveal
- RD has expressed more willingness to talk about his role, which someone should be willing to do (within reason) to prove their case on a head-to-head

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by RealDeal

I can tell you, Brad, on behalf of the angels, we would have been insane if we had all revealed ourselves at once. We thought one person calling out the fake reveal would be sufficient. No self-respecting team of angels or demons or wolves or anyone would reveal everyone at one time.

No, I agree. I assumed there would've been a voting surge more than what we saw, not asking for reveals.

Real Deal, from my understanding, you can't actually cast three votes today because IF you are using a night action (as you described earlier), you'll lose some of those votes (same reason you had to "fake" a night action). I guess I'm also surprised that you have actions/powers of both a Baker and an angel.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Just got home. I have to play catchup on the thread and also have a BBCF sim to run. Is there a recent vote count? Am I still in the lead, or have people reconsidered that option?

Not in the lead, nor in meaningful danger (as far as I can tell).

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Just got home. I have to play catchup on the thread and also have a BBCF sim to run. Is there a recent vote count? Am I still in the lead, or have people reconsidered that option?

Originally Posted by Telle

Vote count as of 465:

6 - RealDeal - RendeR (275), DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437)
4 - Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458)
2 - Alan T - PurdueBrad (286), PurdueBrad (286)

Hasn't changed since my last vote count posting.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Because I think his actions are more consistent.
- he did immediately question the reveal
- DT has indicated that Telle lied in her reveal
- RD has expressed more willingness to talk about his role, which someone should be willing to do (within reason) to prove their case on a head-to-head

Ok, I disagree but thats par for the course. I've said my piece. I can't lay out my reasons any better than I have.

I am still wondering about DT's comments. If his ability IS to know the truth of a statement then I'm back to wondering who telle actually is. I honestly don't believe she's a demon, it'd be utter suicide to make this reveal. That leaves me with another angel or perhaps the cultist.

Guess we'll find out.

[RealDeal]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

No, I agree. I assumed there would've been a voting surge more than what we saw, not asking for reveals.

Real Deal, from my understanding, you can't actually cast three votes today because IF you are using a night action (as you described earlier), you'll lose some of those votes (same reason you had to "fake" a night action). I guess I'm also surprised that you have actions/powers of both a Baker and an angel.

No Brad. Unless I am completely misunderstanding the rules (and BK didn't correct me last night) my protection ability is not one of my "vote or work" actions. Now, faking to build the spritual health does cancel one of my "vote or work" actions, which is why today, since i am using all my actions on voting, I will not be building the cathedral or working on spiritual health.

In future turns (assuming I live through this round), since I am revealed now, when I "fake" cathedral work to do spiritual health, I will just tell everyone so they can plan accordingly.

I do not plan to tell people which part of the cathedral I would protect for obvious reasons.

[hoopsguy]

VOTE TELLE

[Barkeep49]

Telle's count in 466 and 468 match with mine. If you have found errors please let me know. I'm off to watch yesterday's Top Chef and will be back right around deadline.

[PurdueBrad]

Real Deal and Telle, I would be curious to hear both your points of view on my vote for Alan T. Please post whether you support my vote or not.

[Barkeep49]

Dola - Obviously not counting the two actions since then.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Real Deal and Telle, I would be curious to hear both your points of view on my vote for Alan T. Please post whether you support my vote or not.

If I recall correctly, didn't you put your vote on him because you incorrectly believed that he had only done one action?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Real Deal and Telle, I would be curious to hear both your points of view on my vote for Alan T. Please post whether you support my vote or not.

Excellent question.