08-14-2007, 03:59 PM | #451 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
|
|
08-14-2007, 04:12 PM | #452 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
I looks like the whole "conspiracy indictment" was a way to tighten the screws.
Pleading guilt to the charges that carry a 5 year sentence might be had to do, but compared to charges with a 20 year sentence and having 7 witnesses against you.......
__________________
“The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” United States Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis |
08-15-2007, 01:56 AM | #453 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle
|
Quote:
Huh?? Where are you getting the idea that "his lawyers will want to fight it" and will simply make that the paramount goal over and above what it's in Vick's best interests? I think you're wrong on that one. As far as criminal law goes, it is far more common for the accused to disregard their lawyer's advice and decide to fight it rather than take a plea. |
|
08-15-2007, 05:32 AM | #454 | |
World Champion Mis-speller
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Covington, Ga.
|
Quote:
I could see a possiblity that the lawyers would want to continue to fight this. If it looks like the pea will not allow him to continue his career, then they might want to take the chance in trial. Having seven witnesses against him is a large uphill battle, but we haven't heard (nor has his attorneys for that matter) exactly what they have to say yet. It is possible that once they have their testimony, it will be easily impeachable. Remember, these guys aren't Mensa members, nor are they "clean." All the defense needs is for them to testify to dates and times for supposed actions that the defense can prove Vick couldn't have possibily been there. Little mistakes in their testimony can be blown into major lies, and these guys most likely will already have a hard time to being believable to a jury. It still doesn't look good, but just the witnesses against doesn't make this a slam-dunk. Just very close to one. The harder thing to cover is any kind of money trail. If they have some signed receipts, witnesses of transactions outside of the accused, etc. Then he's toast. |
|
08-15-2007, 08:51 AM | #455 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
|
I was listening to the John Riggins show on the way home yesterday and he had an interesting perspective. He had talked with an unnamed Federal prosecutor and the prosecutor had suggested the case against Vick might not be nearly as strong as some are thinking. The federal prosecutor even felt there was a good chance that Vick would walk. His opinion was that when the Feds have a lot of evidence against you, they will sit you down and walk you through all the evidence step by step even before discovery to scare you into a plea. With this case, they haven't done that...they've been strong arming the defendents and basically threatening with additional indictments but they haven't given any indication of what evidence they actually have. To him, this felt like someone with weak evidence trying to get a plea agreement done before getting to the discovery part and having to show how little evidence they actually have.
Now saying that, I don't buy it but I did think it was an interesting view and worth consideration (not just because it came from a federal prosecutor but also there's some logic to it). My opinion is if they didn't have anything there's no way the other 3 would have folded that fast. My guess is this federal prosecutor that Riggins had talked to might not have been aware of what was going on behind the scenes. |
08-15-2007, 09:07 AM | #456 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
So the story is that Vick's lawyers are "talking with prosecutors about a possible deal." I think they're giving up, there's no way they can go back to the stance that he's completely innocent.
|
08-15-2007, 09:20 AM | #457 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
There was a blurb on ESPN radio yesterday about there being a Friday deadline for a deal, or Vick would face new charges. The negotiation point, apparently, was that Vick's attorney was looking for less than a year jail time, where the government wanted longer. I don't see any way this goes to trial. Vick will have way too much at stake, which multiple felonies, and the government will be hapy with some moderate jail time (around a year) to save the expense and uncertainty of trial. High profile jail time for dogfighting case would be a big win for the government - no real gain in going for consecutive time across mulitple felonies, with could lock Vick up for decades. Last edited by molson : 08-15-2007 at 09:22 AM. |
|
08-15-2007, 10:06 AM | #458 | |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
Quote:
Bee, have you read the indictment? The specifics given in the indictment are more than enough to put him away. Its a pretty strong, almost air-tight case to start, before half the other members flipped. At this point, I'd say their case is rock solid. |
|
08-15-2007, 10:23 AM | #459 |
lolzcat
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
|
Oh, man... just when he thought it couldn't get any worse...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293268,00.html |
08-15-2007, 10:40 AM | #460 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,” |
|
08-15-2007, 10:47 AM | #461 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
|
Vick with missiles is a pretty dangerous thought considering he has shown excellent aptitude at aiming for the enemy.
__________________
Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner |
08-15-2007, 10:55 AM | #462 |
Head Cheerleader
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Caught somewhere between Raising Hell and Amazing Grace...
|
Just got this from the AJC:
Falcons QB Michael Vick likely to join co-defendants in plea deal this week Facing the possibility of a new indictment, which includes racketeering charges, Falcons quarterback Michael Vick will most likely join his three co-defendants and agree this week to a plea deal with prosecutors in his federal dogfighting case, according to two people with knowledge of the case. Link: http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp..._11_21_id233_e |
08-15-2007, 10:55 AM | #463 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
|
You guys skipped right over the important part early: Jonathan Lee Riches.
__________________
-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
08-15-2007, 11:06 AM | #464 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle
|
Quote:
I could see that too. But that scenario actually involves the lawyers wanting to fight it because it is in Vick's best interests, not their interests as I was trying to point out. |
|
08-15-2007, 11:09 AM | #465 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
There's no sure things in a jury trial, especially ones with racial overtones. |
|
08-15-2007, 11:11 AM | #466 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
|
08-15-2007, 11:18 AM | #467 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
Sadly, yes. (not that there's racism at work, but that many potential jurors will think that) From what I heard, this thing was pretty much divided among racial lines in the south. (with one view being that ONLY a wealthy black man would get the attention of the federal government in a dog-fighting incident.) Last edited by molson : 08-15-2007 at 11:19 AM. |
|
08-15-2007, 11:19 AM | #468 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
Quote:
Dogfighting. Its a black thing, you wouldn't understand. |
|
08-15-2007, 11:33 AM | #469 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: York, Pa
|
Funny, somehow I am supposed to be persuaded that dogfighting is a black thing and, even though its against the law and fucking terrible, that it shouldnt be punished because to do so is racial. Weel, you could say in Texas that dragging black guys behind a pickup truck is a "sport" down there, should that be allowed too? 2 guys, arabs or the like, were picked up in South Carolina close to the naval weapons station that I was once stationed at with pipe bombs and all of the sudden its because they are muslim they are being arrested and its discrimination etc, etc. They werent arrested because they are muslims, they were arrested because they HAD FUCKING PIPE BOMBS! Next to a military base no less. It drives me crazy that people are so caught up in the PC bullshit that they miss the fact that these people are lawbreakers.
__________________
We had the $240, we had to have the puddin' Last edited by Noble_Platypus : 08-15-2007 at 11:42 AM. |
08-15-2007, 11:36 AM | #470 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: New Jersey
|
This could turn ugly.
|
08-15-2007, 11:38 AM | #471 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
|
Ok guys, lets get back to discussing what kind of food should be served at a dog fight!
|
08-15-2007, 11:39 AM | #472 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
|
I don't think we mentioned potato chips, but that's a one-handed snack.
|
08-15-2007, 11:43 AM | #473 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
I am reminded of something I read that referenced an article in the new York Magazine written in 1791:
"We are again assaulted - the enemy is within. The spread of these practices [cockfighting, one of the worst of southern manly vices] will lead us gradually into habits of intemperance and therefore rob the entire nation of the honour which we formerly acquired." |
08-15-2007, 12:01 PM | #474 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Fyi,
I think Michael Silver's article is a good read. I've never gotten why hunting for fun (as opposed to for food) is so much more kosher than this. The premise is still killing for enjoyment. I think Vick should have the book thrown at him, but Silver's points are fair. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns Quote:
|
|
08-15-2007, 12:04 PM | #475 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
I don't disagree with you (race shouldn't be a factor), but lets not pretend race doesn't play a role in this country - look at the sentencing guidelines on crack vs cocaine to take on example. Last edited by Crapshoot : 08-15-2007 at 12:16 PM. |
|
08-15-2007, 12:09 PM | #476 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
|
1) That article says nothing about whether or not Peyton Manning ate the deer. Plenty of deer and duck hunters eat what they kill. I actually agree that hunting for sport only is deplorable, but lots of hunters don't hunt just for sport.
2) I cringe every time I hear Leonard Little's name in conjunction with the Rams and agree that he should not be in football. I thought his 90-day sentence was absurd to begin with. This was more a media problem who decided not to turn it into the big story it really was. 3) I hope the Vick case cracks this whole thing wide open. I'd have no problem with more guys involved in this going down.
__________________
-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
08-15-2007, 12:11 PM | #477 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
I am not a hunter nor had any interest to do such a thing but I believe there is a difference between an activity that is licensed by the state vs. one that is in violation of federal laws.
|
08-15-2007, 12:12 PM | #478 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
FWIW, there have been several black athletes, who right after the vick thing started, made comments about Dogfighting being a black thing. Most of them have recanted since public oppinon chimed in.
Leonard little is scum, yes, but the whole problem is that he wasnt convicted. The fact that you can refuse a breathalizer and get off is ridiculous. Theres a huge difference between shooting a dear, and caging and beating a dog for its entire life. One is a single act, the other is a chain of cruelty. Personally, I dont know anyone who hunts and doesnt eat what they kill. Last edited by Synovia : 08-15-2007 at 12:14 PM. |
08-15-2007, 12:13 PM | #479 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
1. G, I thought I made that distinction clear in my briefing at the top of the quote - I think hunting for food is justifiable. I can't say I like it, but as I eat meat, I'd be a hypocrite to scorn it. The hunters (for sport) here who bash Vick just strike me as remarkably full of shit. |
|
08-15-2007, 12:15 PM | #480 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
Quote:
Bucc, as a libertarian, do you really want to argue that the federal government is the correct arbitrer of morality? Marijuana is illegal while cigarettes are allowed, primary because of the large tobacco plantations and political will of the latter - I'd say the morality difference between the two is similar. We've had all sorts of ridiculous laws in this country (Slavery/Prohibition/etc etc) - in what is essentially a moral discussion, the law is not enough of a differentiator. |
|
08-15-2007, 12:16 PM | #481 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
|
|
08-15-2007, 12:18 PM | #482 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Appleton, WI
|
The article seems to be saying that people shouldn't be outraged by Vick's dogfighting situation because they aren't outraged enough by drunk driving or domestic abuse. I don't see where one requires the other. Deciding the appropriate level of outrage for these crimes should be done on an individual basis.
I also don't get the connection to hunting. I really don't like hunting for sport or for trophies, but it doesn't seem to be nearly in the same league as breeding and training a dog to be full of aggression and hate and then letting it get torn apart by another dog trained to be the same way. That is a horrible life for a dog followed by a horrible and painful death. |
08-15-2007, 12:18 PM | #483 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
|
I have a big complex up here teaching deer to shoot guns. Should provide a whole new dimension to hunting.
__________________
"Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales |
08-15-2007, 12:18 PM | #484 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Canada eh
|
I'm not a hunter, but agree mostly with the for food vs for sport argument.
That said, dog fighting as in the Vick case would be more like hunting for sport, but shooting out one leg at a time, dragging out the death, making the animal suffer for a long period of time (think of all the "training" these dogs go through) before finally killing the animal. I may not agree with hunting for fun, but for the most part, unless the hunter is rather sadistic, it's still not on the same level as dog fighting.
__________________
"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby Last edited by Travis : 08-15-2007 at 12:20 PM. |
08-15-2007, 12:21 PM | #485 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
|
Quote:
Yes I have read the indictment. And like I said, I don't buy the case that was being made on the radio. While the indictment goes into specific events, etc it doesn't specify the evidence of these events. The prosecutor that Riggins had talked with seemed to think that a good defense lawyer could tear up the federal witnesses by bringing to light all of their past criminal activities and he suspects the other evidence was a little weak which is why the Federal prosecutor is pressing for the plea agreements before having to present the discovery to the defense lawyers. Again, I don't really agree with what they were saying, but I did think it was an interesting view. Last edited by Bee : 08-15-2007 at 12:30 PM. |
|
08-15-2007, 12:46 PM | #486 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
|
Quote:
My point was nothing in the article says that Peyton Manning hunted for sport only. To me, that's a CRITICAL distinction in the point he's trying to make, and the article falls apart for me because he ignores that key point.
__________________
-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
|
08-15-2007, 01:02 PM | #487 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
|
Whether hunting for food or sport (which I think is stupid), it is not illegal. Vick knew what he was doing was against the law. Our society has bestowed certain protections on dogs (and cats, for example) that have not been bestowed on deer or other animals. Now, if Vick thinks this is unfair, it's certainly within his right to protest these laws, but the NFL doesn't have to support or condone that protest.
__________________
Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner |
08-15-2007, 01:18 PM | #488 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
I think it is an interesting point, but I would expect prosecutors to behave differently with Vick because Vick isn't a normal defendant. Unlike 99% of the defendants being prosecuted at the federal level, Vick has money to burn for his legal defense. And Vick also has very different motivations (preserving his reputation and career) than most defendants and those motivations may make him less likely to deal. While a prosecutor might walk through the evidence with an average defendant if the government had a strong case, they would be less inclined to do so with Vick because the government doesn't want to show its hand too early. So, I wouldn't read anything into the handling of Vick versus an average defendant - Vick and his case are anything but average.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
|
08-15-2007, 01:24 PM | #489 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Quote:
I don't know how to respond to your reply. The laws are what they are, regardless if one believes that an entity has exceeded its authority in such areas. It is clear that the states make hunting legal, within their own set of rules, regardless of motivation. The Feds, and I assume the states as well, have laws stating that dogfighting and racketeering are illegal. |
|
08-15-2007, 01:32 PM | #490 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Satellite of Love
|
I understand why people would make the connection, but I don't agree with it. Hunting usually involve people hunting a wild animal, and in most cases, an animal that is natural prey and knows to get the fuck away when danger is near (and views a human as a danger). Dog fighting is the training of domesticated animals. To me, the wild vs. domesticated point is a big deal and what keeps me from objectively connecting the two. To me, a much better comparison would be people who hunt elephant for fun, or another animal that does not have a natural preditor (at least doesn't run. Where is the sport is seeing an elephant, standing there and just shooting? Where is the "hunting" part of that?). Or comparing it one of those places where you essentially hunt domesticated animals (watching a video of those places actually disturbs me more than videos of dog fighting.). But the blanket connection of hunting wild animals vs. fighting domesticated animals is a stretch for me, but I can see where people are coming from with that. |
08-15-2007, 01:36 PM | #491 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
|
this ever happen during dog fighting?
__________________
"Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales |
08-15-2007, 02:29 PM | #492 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Georgia
|
The domestic abuse comparisons are idiotic. The reporters attempting this tactic don't realize theyre being hypocritical themselves. It's not like we see daily articles or columns about this subject. Usually we get a report about the arrest and maybe one follow up mention of the sentence/decision. If the sportswriters really gave a shit about domestic violence, we'd be hearing about it all the time and not just in response to the Michael Vick story.
Also, the outrage does have something to do with his popularity. I'm pretty sure there'd be quite the controversy if Peyton Manning beat his wife.
__________________
Top 10 Songs of the Year 1955-Present (1976 Added) Franchise Portfolio Draft Winner Fictional Character Draft Winner Television Family Draft Winner Build Your Own Hollywood Studio Draft Winner Last edited by larrymcg421 : 08-15-2007 at 02:33 PM. |
08-15-2007, 02:56 PM | #493 |
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jun 2001
|
I gotta believe that this encounter did not end well for the guy on the elephant... |
08-15-2007, 02:59 PM | #494 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hometown of Canada
|
|
08-15-2007, 03:18 PM | #495 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
That's one hell of a vertical.
Edit: I wonder what the elephant's thinking. "ohshit ohshit ohshit... Oh nevermind, he's going for the doofus on my back." Last edited by flere-imsaho : 08-15-2007 at 03:20 PM. |
08-15-2007, 03:28 PM | #496 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
|
08-15-2007, 04:25 PM | #497 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Quote:
That's what I love about elephants. Besides man, no other animals really can fuck with the elephants. When I read your first reply I doubted the elephant was thinking 'oh shit' but rather, 'what does this silly cat think she's doing?' I was kinda surprised the elephant was chasing t0he tiger but man, I'd have love to have seen that footage.
__________________
There are no houris, alas, in our heaven. |
|
08-15-2007, 06:15 PM | #498 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
If you side with the dogs over Vick, here's a good picture
hxxp://steakandcheese.com/downloads/Dogs_Get_Revenge.jpg Edit: NSFW Last edited by Buccaneer : 08-15-2007 at 06:42 PM. |
08-16-2007, 01:11 PM | #499 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
according to CNN vick is considering whether to accept a plea that includes 1 year jailtime but is waiting to hear from the NFL how it would affect his career. same article says that if he doesn't, a superseeding indictment will be issued with RICO charges.
man...part of me hopes he doesn't take the plea and gets the book thrown at him. or the govt. pulls the plea off the table so they can make an example of someone in the case. |
08-16-2007, 01:19 PM | #500 |
College Prospect
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: York, Pa
|
Me too. He is out this year and next even if he does take the plea deal, but still, I would like to see him get hit with the additional charges
__________________
We had the $240, we had to have the puddin' |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|