Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Dodgerchick]

Originally Posted by Subby

And on cue, I received my test results from my annual checkup on Tuesday. Lowest cholesterol ever for me, so obvious connection. Hah.

Report Result
CHOLESTEROL, TOTAL 182
TRIGLYCERIDES 39
HDL CHOLESTEROL 88
VLDL CHOLESTEROL CAL 8
LDL CHOLESTEROL CALC 86
T. CHOL/HDL RATIO 2.1

Hooray!

I'm right there with you on the beet juice. I never thought I'd like it, but damn, it's really yummy! It tastes like dirt, but hell, I ate dirt as a kid. What I mean by I ate it, I mean you play outside and get dirty and somehow you end up eating it.

Good for you, Subby!!

[Dodgerchick]

dola,

As I was looking through my FB memories, a post popped up where I ran for a mile straight without pain. I think this was about 3 years ago. I had plantar fasciitis and it was really painful, so the fact that I was able to run was a massive accomplishment. Well, my memory reminded me that I ate nothing but plant food for several weeks and drank Golden Milk. That stuff is so freaking yummy and it has a lot of anti-inflammatory ingredients. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but it's perfect timing, as my elbows are starting to hurt.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It seems pretty obvious that there's a market for this sort of thing.

{redacted}

edit to add: I believe even my harshest critics will admit that I'm good about standing by what I say here, popular or not.

HOWEVER ... I shitposted in this thread and I'm removing that cause it doesn't belong here and posting it was a shithead move on my part

I misclicked and landed here carelessly, my keyboard carried an unrelated foul mood into the thread and I left a small'ish pipebomb laying around.

Consider this a mea culpa.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Subby

About a week into eating 99.8% plant-based.

Tl;dr it's way less of a deal than I thought it would be and I generally feel better!

good for you, literally

[Kodos]

Nice to hear, Subby!

[Brian Swartz]

Glad you've found something that works for you. I hope you're able to stick with it.

[Kodos]

I know lot will dismiss the message because they don't like the messenger, but Bill Maher makes good points here. It's not just exotic animal markets over in China that are causing outbreaks. Factory farming is the genesis of many diseases that eventually transfer over to infecting humans (swine flu, for instance). And the abuse of antibiotics in the meat industry is leading to the rise of antibiotic-resistant strains that will some day render all of our antibiotics useless. Basically, we are fucking ourselves over so we can eat wings and cheeseburgers.

[Kodos]

Here's a video from a few weeks ago where he criticized the wet markets over in China.

[Kodos]

Tri-dola.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I've found I'm a fan of almost any culture's peasant food.

Funny way of putting it, but +1 here. We do cultural variations on rice and beans at a level/frequency that wouldn't have sounded reasonable before our family became plant-based. Basically zero pushback.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I know lot will dismiss the message because they don't like the messenger, but Bill Maher makes good points here. It's not just exotic animal markets over in China that are causing outbreaks. Factory farming is the genesis of many diseases that eventually transfer over to infecting humans (swine flu, for instance). And the abuse of antibiotics in the meat industry is leading to the rise of antibiotic-resistant strains that will some day render all of our antibiotics useless. Basically, we are fucking ourselves over so we can eat wings and cheeseburgers.

This sword cuts both ways unfortunately.
Many of the chems used in commercial farming of grains, fruits, vegetables are also causing some pretty alarming mutations and potentially altering the human gut at a near genetic level.

I think we would all do better to support small local sustainable farming techniques whether our diets are plant based, mixed or full carnivore.

[QuikSand]

McDonald’s CEO: Vegan Options Are on the Way | VegNews

No shock, but it's kinda odd they really trail the "field" here in some respects... well, other than Arby's and their contrarian play, which I also expect will serve them well.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I think we would all do better to support small local sustainable farming techniques whether our diets are plant based, mixed or full carnivore.

My wife is better than I am with this (and in many respects)... I just lack the discipline to stick with it. I get the argument, but the convenience and cost factors have been tough for me to get beyond.

Aspirationally... yes, with you there. Better.

[JPhillips]

I saw a report that said an analysis of on-line food orders compared to in-store purchases showed fewer purchases of sugar and processed foods and more purchases of meat and produce. I found it interesting that I fit the data in that we're cooking more than we did previously and have the time to make from scratch rather than eat semi-prepared or fully prepared.

[QuikSand]

I have been grapping for years with the importance of reducing oils as part of a plat based diet. Differing views. Here's one from a source who's fairly easy on the eyes, as well as persuasive, superficially...

Why I’m the most disliked vegan doctor, by vegans.

Intellectual honesty doesn’t always make you popular.

A thread.

— Danielle Belardo, MD (@DBelardoMD) September 12, 2020

[Kodos]

I still use Olive Oil, but try not to go too heavy with it. I eat nuts daily.

[BYU 14]

We went vegan for the first 3 months of 2020 and when i had my labs done at the end of March, my cholesterol, which had always been stellar, was high for the first time ever. It was a stark realization, that you have to be extremely regimented in planning this type of diet. The main thing that stood out as a cause, was the amount of 'impossible meat' and like substances we were eating, as well as the mount of processed plant foods we consumed.

Many of these products are loaded with filler fat and were ultimately just not working for me. I went back to a more paleo diet, lots of veggies, lean meat and very few carbs, with 1 or 2 cheat meals/snacks a week. Numbers were back in line when I retested 3 moths later.

So fro my experience, I think whatever path you follow, the amount of unprocessed plants you consume, while staying sensible with your protein sources is the key, like Dr. Belardo advocates.

[Kodos]

Not sure why I capitalized "Olive Oil", but okay...

My biggest problem is I haven't been able to completely eliminate crap snacks like Goldfish. My diet at meals is pretty good. But the stuff in between is still a problem.

[MacroGuru]

For me, it's become eliminating the processed foood.

My diet is pretty straight forward, 100% natural foods, nothing processed anymore (Well, except for my Saturday cheat snack of Crumbl)

I am down 30 pounds since Jan 1, my wife is in the best shape of her life (Even when she was in the army) and the kids hate it - so we must be doing something right..LOL.

For me, to keep my T levels up, my diet is roughly 40% protein / 30% fats / 30% carbs

All healthy fats, all healthy carbs nothing crazy and I can sustain the diet pretty easy, even on a trip or vacation etc (When that happens again).

I also hike probably 7-12 miles a weekend.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

So fro my experience, I think whatever path you follow, the amount of unprocessed plants you consume, while staying sensible with your protein sources is the key, like Dr. Belardo advocates.

I think that is a very sensible takeaway.

I don't fully agree that the only way to eat fully plant-based is loaded with processed meat substitutes, but it seems to be the easiest path. Doing low carb, plat based is shaping up as seriously difficult for Mrs Q and, to some extent, me.

[QuikSand]

The plant-based (and whole-foods) movement has a problem similar to that facing the Democratic party, it seems to me. You have your deeply committed true believers, but in theory you also believe you have a message and vision that could connect to those who aren't all that deeply committed. Right?

So, when I see this kind of stuff in my social media feed (that has almost nothing from this brand in it)...

The colorful presentation of this salad is worthy of special occasions. https://t.co/OrBd9IonBX pic.twitter.com/l3aqdvWC5y

— Forks Over Knives (@ForksOverKnives) October 9, 2020

I kinda shake my head. That picture is basically the case for the {FOFCer I won't name here} type who shows up in this thread just to puke on me or others who are here to discuss plant-based choices. "I'd rather die than eat that garbage." It's likely a lovely dish, and I might well enjoy it, but ... well, it gives me the same sort of reaction as the Green New Deal.

Like, can we just maybe not suggest to everyone that under our plan they can never fly on a plane again, and they will have to drink their own urine, and stuff?

[QuikSand]

Weird thing I’ve been seeing...shortages with specific plant based products during the pandemic. I guess food shortages have become common...has me wondering why.

Among my guesses:

-production problems, boring but possible

-a demand spike, fueled by way more people ordering groceries remotely, and dispelling a prior sense of careful cost-conscious shopping (my favorite theory)

-a demand spike, fueled by people rationalizing high priced groceries because they’re spending less on restaurants (and bars and maybe everything else)

I know my own willingness to pay premium prices for, say, Miyoko’s cheese products has gone way up this year, but isolating why seems hard.

[QuikSand]

My inbox on every social media I have is filled w/ vegans screaming at me today for not cherry picking data & telling everyone they have to go 100% plant based for health in my interview w/ my friend @RealDoctorMike

so let me save yall time from DMing me: here is my response. https://t.co/oDiJ3yDEv5 pic.twitter.com/zB7nEfOITq

— Danielle Belardo, MD (@DBelardoMD) March 22, 2021

[korme]

Just wanted to chime in and say keep it up. Love this thread. I've been vegan for 1.5 years and vegetarian for a good 8 or 9.

[QuikSand]

Not a bad celebration brunch spread... sorry can't get image to load properly here, it seems

Featured products: Beyond sausage patties, Field Roast sausage links, Field Roast Chao cheese slices, Just Egg omelettes, Benevolent Bacon, buffalo seasoned tempeh, and a variety of less pre-fab stuff courtesy of my eldest daughter

[thesloppy]

That looks awesome!

[JPhillips]

I love the bunny cookies.

[Kodos]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/o...sultPosition=1

Getting away from industrial animal farming is another huge piece of slowing global warming. Plus, industrial farms create a perfect breeding ground for the next pandemic. Plant-based meats and meatless meat grown in a lab can help us stave off global warming, and maybe the next pandemic.

So this is going to be a column about finding a way to work with humanity’s growing appetite for meat rather than against it. All we need to do is replace the animals, or at least a lot of them. Technologically, we’re closer to that than you might think. What we need is for government to put money and muscle behind the project — just as it’s doing for electric cars and weatherized homes and renewable energy — so that the future happens fast enough to save the present. This is the hole in the American Jobs Plan, and it wouldn’t take much money, just a bit of vision, to fill.

Let me first lay out the urgency of the task and the rewards we could reap. As best we can tell, the novel coronavirus jumped from bats, to some other animal, to humans, with the locus of infection being a Chinese meat market. There’s nothing unusual about that. Swine flus — yes, plural — jump from pigs to humans. Avian flus jump from birds to humans. Ebola most likely came from monkeys. “Preventing the Next Pandemic,” a report by the United Nations Environment Program, estimates that 75 percent of the new infectious diseases that threaten humans come from animals.


The U.N. report goes on to name the seven major drivers of these emerging animal-to-human diseases. First is the increasing demand for animal protein. As populations get richer, they eat more meat. Since 1961, global meat production has more than quadrupled, to more than 340 million tons from 71 million tons. Americans are among the top meat consumers in the world: In 2018, each of us ate, on average, 222 pounds of red meat and chicken. Consumption in most other countries is far lower, but rising. In China, for instance, per capita meat consumption has more than doubled since 1990.

The more meat we eat, the more animals we need to raise. That brings us to the second driver of pandemic risk: the “intensification” of animal agriculture. There are still farmers who raise animals as our ancestors did, with respect both for their lives and for the land. But they’re the exception. To get the quantity of meat we eat, at the prices we want, has meant turning animals into technologies. They’re bred to gain weight fast, crowded together in sprawling industrial operations and pumped full of antibiotics to prevent disease.

These operations are petri dishes for viral mutation. The animals, whose immune systems are suppressed by stress and fear, fall ill easily, and every creature is a fresh opportunity for a virus to develop into a form humans can catch and then spread.

Viruses are not the only health risk from industrial animal agriculture, though. About 65 percent of antibiotics in the United States are sold for use on farms. These antibiotics are often, if not mostly, used to keep animals from getting sick, not to treat them once they’re ill. They’re then excreted in animal waste, where they make their way into waterways, into fish and into us. Antibiotic-resistant diseases are already killing 700,000 people a year worldwide. The U.N.’s interagency group on antimicrobial resistance estimates that could rise to 10 million per year by 2050. To put that toll in perspective, there are around three million confirmed deaths from Covid-19 so far.

The health risks of animal agriculture are compounded by the climate costs. Only 18 percent of the global calorie supply, and only 37 percent of the global protein supply, comes from meat and dairy. But about half of all habitable land on the planet is given over to agriculture, and more than 75 percent of that goes to animal agriculture.

This raises our disease risk. We keep encroaching deeper into the wilderness, bringing both our domesticated animals and ourselves into contact with new pathogens. But it’s also a huge driver of global warming: We’re cutting forests that were sequestering carbon and turning them over to cows, which emit tons of methane, a particularly potent greenhouse gas.
Editors’ Picks
There’s a Name for the Blah You’re Feeling: It’s Called Languishing
What Kind of Flag Can I Fly Outside My House?
Continue reading the main story

About a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions are traceable to the food supply chain. Animal agriculture accounts for about three-quarters of those emissions and nearly 90 percent of those in the average American diet. A 2020 study found that even if all fossil fuel emissions ceased today, the food system would still push warming more than 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels, which most scientists consider unsafe. “The 7.8 billion of us on this planet cannot have a steak every night,” Inger Andersen, executive director of the U.N. Environment Program, told me. “It doesn’t compute.”

[albionmoonlight]

I'm not going full plant-based. But based on my latest bloodwork, my family genetics have caught up to me, and I need to start paying a lot more attention to this stuff.

One thing I want to do is make some basic daily changes as I work toward more of a lifestyle overhaul.

What are the good plant-based milk substitutes? I drink a lot of milk, so subbing for that would be a pretty eventful change.

But I see a lot of options: almond, oat, soy.

I assume they each have their own flavor profile. Which ones are the most milk-like? I figure I'll get some recs before I start exploring.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'm not going full plant-based. But based on my latest bloodwork, my family genetics have caught up to me, and I need to start paying a lot more attention to this stuff.

One thing I want to do is make some basic daily changes as I work toward more of a lifestyle overhaul.

What are the good plant-based milk substitutes? I drink a lot of milk, so subbing for that would be a pretty eventful change.

But I see a lot of options: almond, oat, soy.

I assume they each have their own flavor profile. Which ones are the most milk-like? I figure I'll get some recs before I start exploring.

I have tried them all and 100% recommend Oat Milk. Planet Oat is my favorite, great taste and gives you everything you need from milk

Original 90 calories per cup (consistency/taste somewhere between skim/2% regular milk) 1.5 G total fat, 0 G saturated and trans fat. 19 G carbs, 2 G fiber, 2 G protein and has vitamin D (20%), Calcium (25%) Vitamin A (20%) and B12 (10%)

Extra creamy, richer, thicker consistency, use this mostly for my coffee
120 calories per cup and fat content is 3.5 G total, 0.5 G saturated and 0 G trans. 22 G carbs, 3 G fiber, 2 g protein and has vitamin D (20%), Calcium (25%) Vitamin A (20%) and B12 (10%) (same vitamin content as regular)

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'm not going full plant-based. But based on my latest bloodwork, my family genetics have caught up to me, and I need to start paying a lot more attention to this stuff.

One thing I want to do is make some basic daily changes as I work toward more of a lifestyle overhaul.

What are the good plant-based milk substitutes? I drink a lot of milk, so subbing for that would be a pretty eventful change.

But I see a lot of options: almond, oat, soy.

I assume they each have their own flavor profile. Which ones are the most milk-like? I figure I'll get some recs before I start exploring.

FWIW, I've never been a drink-a-whole-glass guy anyway, so my consumption is coffee, over cereal, and everything else, in that order.

Oat Milk is probably the most initially satisfying, but it has more sugar than many health-motivated users want. The Oatly brand is especially tasty.

Ripple makes a milk product that, I think, is a blend of proteins including pea... their chocolate variety is very tasty. I suspect the regular one is too.

I initially (when committing to 100% plant-based diet) really found almond milk to be weak. I spent some time using the various "creamers" available - denser variations on the soy milk or almond milk theme. I pretty quickly adjusted, predictably, and now find it fully acceptable. (The bayou boy in you might find my ratio of coffee to milk - perhaps 3:2 - to be suitable, most of the world would disagree)

Soy milk has a bit of extra protein, which may suit some dietary goals. It has a vaguely... "nutty" aftertaste to me, and I prefer almond milk for that reason, but am willing to drink soy if that's what's available someplace.

Coconut milk is also a usable base, but to me there's a noticeable aftertaste there too, and it's off-putting unless you want it. A slight coconut/tropical vibe in, say, rocky road ice cream... cool. In my coffee... no, no.

[QuikSand]

...and if you're drifting in search of non-dairy alternates, I cannot recommend this highly enough:

Tomato Cayenne | Field Roast

For my money, it's the simplest exhibit in a case of "going dairy free might not be that bad." A click more expensive than trash American slices or whatnot, but not really more than a nice cheddar or some other civilized option.

Other non-dairy items I'd vouch for, personally:

-pretty much anything from Miyoko's Creamery... their spreadable cheese is cultured, so it's not really like cream cheese, more like Boursin or Barscheez

-the Better Than Cream Cheese from Tofutti... affordable, basic, but a very reasonable taste/texture substitute for the real thing if that's what you crave (I often do)

[Kodos]

Milk was one of the easiest things for me to give up. Replaced morning cereal with morning oatmeal with berries and never looked back. Chicken wings, steak, and seafood were harder. I hope you find a suitable replacement, Albion.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm very happy with Planet Oat. Thanks BYU! The extra creamy for my coffee and the regular for drinking/cereal has been great.

I'm not quite as concerned with the sugars yet. I'm really trying to get animal fats out of my diet. For me, it is 90% about cholesterol/heart health and 10% about weight/other health issues. As I get a handle on the first, then the rest may become more of a focus.

I also plan to do this for the next 40 years, so I want to be realistic about sustainable changes. If the oat milk is really tasty but not quite as healthy, I might still stick with it b/c I'm more likely to really stick with it.

I do enjoy meat, but I could see the long-term result of this becoming mostly vegetarian/vegan. As I think more about what I am putting into my body, that tends to be the answers I end up reaching. But I still think that a roasted chicken and vegetables is pretty healthy, and I don't see a health need (at this point) to give those up. I'm just trying to eliminate the bacon, fast food, etc.

The one wild card is that I have one son who I predict will end up vegetarian within the next few years for ethical reasons (I'm letting him just take the journey at his pace, but I can see where it is going). And if he does decide to do it, we will support him, and then I can see our whole family's meals becomes a lot more plant-based by default.

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

Thanks for the cheese recs, Q. I'll be sure to check those out. Cheese is another weakness (though I've found hummus to be a good substitute weirdly. When I want cheese toast or cheese crackers, hummus toast or crackers tends to hit the spot)

[korme]

I like all of the Violife cheese products. Daiya is improving, too - the shredded works fine but the slices are still not quite there for me. Fake cheese has come a long way in the past five or so years, so the future is bright!

[QuikSand]

There's a battery of staples to a well-rounded vegan diet, IMO, and if any of them isn't your cup of tea, it's got to be tougher.

Hummus, guacamole, and salsa/pico ... you can do an awful lot with those to add texture, flavor, and heft to things that might otherwise seem really lacking without the central protein.

And Indian food, if it's your cup of tea, is probably the most fully adaptable genre to being vegetarian/vegan of any stripe.

[QuikSand]

#BlackOwned restaurants that add #vegan options to their menus are eligible for $20,000 grants. Sounds like a winning proposition to us! #WuTang @ViolifeFoods #PlantGrantshttps://t.co/i1TI1Xxwn3

— vegnews (@VegNews) July 1, 2021

[QuikSand]

New standard bearer, IMO, in the "chick'n" category:

Ultimate Plant-Based Chick’n Filets | Gardein

[korme]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

New standard bearer, IMO, in the "chick'n" category:

Ultimate Plant-Based Chick’n Filets | Gardein

Interesting. I've been using Gardein's Chik'n Scallopini for wraps and simpler meals and while the taste is fine, they are like glue on my frying pans.

[korme]

Seems as if Beyond is making a big Beyond Chicken announcement tomorrow.

[Kodos]

Disappointed that Dunkin' has discontinued the Beyond Sausage sandwich.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Disappointed that Dunkin' has discontinued the Beyond Sausage sandwich.

I think the general arrow is up on all this kind of stuff, but there are still going to be misses. You do a meatless sausage, but offer it for $5 on a buttered muffin, with egg and cheese... you have probably dropped fully half of the customers who might have been intrigued by some meatless offering. Plus they (DD in specific) continue to test the hell out of vegan friendly donuts, without any whisper of actually offering them anytime soon, here.

Someone will come along with the full deal... plant based breakfast sandwich that doesn't taste like ass. I already make it at home, I'd gladly pay Burger King $5 for it on the road from time to time... but I think that's what has to happen to really click.

[Kodos]

Yeah. I allow myself limited cheese and eggs, so that sandwich was right up my alley.

[cuervo72]

Now, I'm not remotely vegetarian, but I passed up some Johnsonville chorizo for Field Roast Vegan Smoked Apple & Sage sausages for dinner last night, and was perfectly fine with the results.

[albionmoonlight]

So I'm happy with the place that I have settled in so far in terms of sustainability.

For breakfast and lunch, I'm going mostly vegan (probably missing weird things like the horse hooves in gelatin or whatever). Lots of fruit and oatmeal and oatmilk and hummus and eggplant (it helps that I really love eggplant). Switched to olive oil instead of butter on bread; forgoing the ice cream (mostly). Pretty much cut out cheese (thank you hummus).

Dinners are still all together as a family, so they tend to have a meat component, but b/c we are trying to be healthy with the kids, that tends be more along the lines of chicken or seafood with vegetables instead of hot dogs, etc.

Where I am still not doing anything is with takeout/eating out/4th of July. There, I'm still generally eating unhealthy food.

But I also know myself well enough to know that if I did this TOO hardcore to start, I'd burnout. If I make it sustainable and add babysteps, I can keep it going for decades.

It also helps that I got my CT calcium scan back, and it showed just what I thought--low/moderate cholesterol damage, but nothing too serious yet. That's the sweet spot in terms of (1) getting my attention, but (2) still giving me a lot to fight for. If I can get ahold of this NOW, then I probably manage to head off the heart attack I would otherwise have had in 15 years.

Thanks for the advice/support so far.

[QuikSand]

Did The Pandemic End The Plant-Based Momentum For Restaurants?

[QuikSand]

In recent years vegan cheese had become a grocery store staple. But there's still one problem; vegan cheese won't melt, stretch, brown or bubble. So, what's the science behind why vegan cheese doesn't act like we expect? https://t.co/KsioOZkvPE pic.twitter.com/bldccfR0Id

— WIRED (@WIRED) September 10, 2021

Not trying to sell you on anything, just an interesting and pretty unbiased explainer on why non-dairy cheeses remain so separable from the real thing.

[korme]

Comments are just what I expected, very helpful

[albionmoonlight]

So I'm still doing pretty good. Not perfect, but finding a sustainable way to eat a lot less animal product than I would otherwise.

But, man, people don't always make it easy. I know that I am preaching to the choir in this thread, but why do people think that Vegans hate flavor?

There was a lunch buffet thingy I was at yesterday. And they had a tofu option and a chicken option. And I'd had the chicken from this thing before, and it was good. A very flavorful lemon/herb thing.

And the tofu looked good--fried cubes with some peppers in an Asian-looking sauce. But then when you eat it, there is just no flavor. It was kind of impressive, in its way, just how flavorless they could make that sauce.

And why? Tofu is just a flavor sponge. You can do anything with it. There is no reason that you can't give it flavor. I'm not even saying that it needed heat (though I would have liked that). Garlic, onion, bell pepper, *salt* Any of these things would have given it some flavor.

But instead, it was just fried cubes.

/rant over.