NFL Week 8 Discussion Thread: Randy Moss Claimed on Waivers by the Titans

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

So...the argument on your side is "he's a deep threat that doesn't catch deep balls" ???

Holy Shit! Have you not followed any of this?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I guess you are a better football mind than Belichick?

He's been getting safety help for the last 10+ years. The difference is, this year he can't beat it. I've stated this numerous times...

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

He's been getting safety help for the last 10+ years. The difference is, this year he can't beat it. I stated this numerous times...

Who gives a shit if he cant beat it. As long as they keep playing it against him he is productive.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Holy Shit! Have you not followed any of this?

...vague...much?

[Rizon]

This thread is about as bizarre as the Moss situation.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

started with the Sports Guy, Bill Simmons. He's good for quips like that. And it's insane that Childress would tell the team he's waiving the player and then not have the player show up on the waiver wire. That's an instant lose-the-locker room moment (if 2-5 means he hasn't lost them already)

Unless they aren't waiving him right now to reduce the amount of time that he will be able to help someone this week. Although, that seems a little more calculating than Childress could manage.

Either that or Randy isn't going to be waived and Childress fired.

[Rizon]

Shouldn't this all be in the Week 9 Football Thread now?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Who gives a shit if he cant beat it. As long as they keep playing it against him he is productive.

Do I (for the third time) need to post his stats for this year again? You're saying that he's equally productive this year, as he has been throughout his career. Yes?

Only you can't see it in the stats...is it like a cosmic production?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

...vague...much?

Well how many times have people told you in this thread that is value lies on making other players around him better and you choose to ignore that part instead you keep talking about his YTD stats.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

So...the argument on your side is "he's a deep threat that doesn't catch deep balls" ???

A deep threat in modest (or even signficant) decline doesn't transform into a possession receiver at some point overnight. He just becomes less of a deep threat.

But Moss is still a deep threat. He's not as great as he once was, but he's still a deep threat. The defenses play him accordingly. You can see that as clear as day as recently as this Sunday's game. He's also had some outstanding deep receptions this year.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well how many times have people told you in this thread that is value lies on making other players around him better and you choose to ignore that part instead you keep talking about his YTD stats.

Ok...so the entire argument for Moss this year isn't that he's a good player who puts up the kind of numbers that he use to, it's that he makes everyone around him a better player. Is that the new definition for "locker room cancer" now? I think I'm coming around here.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Only you can't see it in the stats...is it like a cosmic production?

By "you", do you mean everyone in the thread, and every NFL coach that has played against him this year?

WR stats have to be viewed in context. They are not the tell-all of a receiver's value to the team.

I sometimes think the baseball stat nerds can get a little carried away, but really, WR stats? That's like judging a baseball player based solely on RBIs.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

The more I think about it, I know it is a horrible idea... but the thought of watching a defense try to defend Calvin Johnson AND Randy Moss has me extremely intrigued.

[Sun Tzu]

I guess "deep threat" isn't defined as someone who actually makes plays down the field...it's just about drawing an extra player downfield.

Ok ok, so this year, what makes him any different than say...Ted Ginn Jr? Or any other wideout that can run a streak?

[SirFozzie]

One of my co-workers is a Florida transplant. He took to Boston sports pretty well (C's, Bruins, Sox, etcetera).. but he cannot STAND the Patriots. He's one of those types who spews out the word "Cheatriots" every three lines or so.

He's firmly convinced that Belichick and Moss planned all this to scam Minnesota out of a pick.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

By "you", do you mean everyone in the thread, and every NFL coach that has played against him this year?

WR stats have to be viewed in context. They are not the tell-all of a receiver's value to the team.

I sometimes think the baseball stat nerds can get a little carried away, but really, WR stats? That's like judging a baseball player based solely on RBIs.

Nah...I'm just looking at him like a has-been Wideout who use to be great, but can't cut it anymore. You're telling me that his stats this year and being cut by two teams are purely coincidental?

[SirFozzie]

ESPN's Adam Schefter just tweeted the following..

multiple members of the Vikings organization -- the front office and the players -- want Randy Moss back (not that he ever left).

Are we now in a Childress or Moss situation and if so, who wins?

[BishopMVP]

Even if he was as bad as you claim he is, he would still be a bad deep threat (a la Joey Galloway). In no way does he have the skillset, nor is he used as a possession receiver.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Are we now in a Childress or Moss situation and if so, who wins?

Favre

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Favre

LOL

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Nah...I'm just looking at him like a has-been Wideout who use to be great, but can't cut it anymore. You're telling me that his stats this year and being cut by two teams are purely coincidental?

His stats, this year, are still better than most WRs in the NFL. Certainly nothing that would warrant getting cut for performance reasons alone. I think, maybe, possibiliy, there was some off-field components to both decisions.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I wonder if Florio was right in that Childress can claim he was fired over Moss instead of his shitty coaching.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

ESPN's Adam Schefter just tweeted the following..

multiple members of the Vikings organization -- the front office and the players -- want Randy Moss back (not that he ever left).

Are we now in a Childress or Moss situation and if so, who wins?

I hope this is true. Moss certainly wins and Chilly will be gone. It was clear back in August that Chilly is thought of as a joke by his own players.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Even if he was as bad as you claim he is, he would still be a bad deep threat (a la Joey Galloway). In no way does he have the skillset, nor is he used as a possession receiver.

I see where you're coming from, but my argument is that his only production is coming in the same type of routes that a bad possession receiver would run with regularity. Like I said before, he's been relegated to a possession receiver. He can't beat double coverage deep (which is what he's been getting his entire career), and he can't go over the middle. That, by default, makes him a possession receiver. You could run Keyshawn Johnson on a streak route every play, and he would have zippo production. Does that make him a deep threat? Hell no. How you produce on the field makes you what you are.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Mustang

So, now they are saying he wasn't waived and this might be some Childress power play without approval?

WTF?

Hopefully this is the case and as a result the Wilfs show Childress the door instead and put Leslie Frazier in charge.

[lordscarlet]

OK, so, Sun Tzu, what defines a deep threat? How long of a pass is a "Deep threat" pass?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

His stats, this year, are still better than most WRs in the NFL.

So, by most WR's in the NFL, do you mean the ones that don't start?

He's 47th in the league in receptions...and 52nd in yards. Yes, it's true, he does have 5 TD's. That at the very least does give him some Fantasy Football value...

[molson]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

OK, so, Sun Tzu, what defines a deep threat? How long of a pass is a "Deep threat" pass?

38 yards.

Definitely not 37 yards, apparently, even if it's a 37 yard TD pass.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

So, by most WR's in the NFL, do you mean the ones that don't start?

He's 47th in the league in receptions...and 52nd in yards. Yes, it's true, he does have 5 TD's. That at the very least does give him some Fantasy Football value...

Who above Moss on those lists should be waived for performance reasons? (or more to the point, who above Moss on those lists shouldn't be claimed by any team if they are waived)?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

OK, so, Sun Tzu, what defines a deep threat? How long of a pass is a "Deep threat" pass?

Someone who, half way through the season, would have at least one mark in the "40+" category (though preferably they would have 3-4).

[Matthean]

For kicks and giggles. Moss has the best ypc of any Patriot this year. 1/3 of his catches went 20+. He was also the most likely to get a 1st down per reception. With the Vikings, he is tied for ypc outside of a player with 1 catch. 10 of his 13 catches were for first downs. Longest reception so far this year for a Viking? 37 yards. Owned by Harvin and Moss. Moss isn't Jerry Rice, or even the best WR in the game, but he sure as hell comes across as being one of the best on two different teams. This year.

[Sun Tzu]

Hey there's Joey Galloway!

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Someone who, half way through the season, would have at least one mark in the "40+" category (though preferably they would have 3-4).

SHIT. I was wrong.

Joey Galloway is a deep threat.

[Rizon]

You need YAC Adjusted 40+ stats.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Someone who, half way through the season, would have at least one mark in the "40+" category (though preferably they would have 3-4).

Sample size.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

Who above Moss on those lists should be waived for performance reasons? (or more to the point, who above Moss on those lists shouldn't be claimed by any team if they are waived)?

Oh I never said the only reason Moss was waived was due to performance, but we all know it was a major factor in the decision. All I said was that it wasn't a coincidence...again...read . If he was "typical Randy" in the locker room, but he was putting up his old numbers (well...save for his last year in MN/year in OAK) then I'm sure he'd still have a team.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Rizon

You need YAC Adjusted 40+ stats.

Get 'em and lmk if Randy is on there.

k thx

[RainMaker]

How many deep pass interference penalties does he draw? Does he get other guys open? Those are some questions that those statistics don't show.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Wait, so every deep threat gets safety help on every play?

[lordscarlet]

So 40 yards is the cut off? Moss has at least 3 34+ receptions. I mean, maybe I've been a Redskins fan through some bad years, but "Deep Threat" to me seems like 25+ yards or so.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Get 'em and lmk if Randy is on there.

k thx

So if next week, Moss signs somewhere and gets one 40+ yard completition, he will jump back into your "deep threat" category?

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Sample size.

Ok...so if he was still his old self, then games against pushovers like Cincy, Buffalo, Dallas and GB would have resulted in more than just a handful of spectacular, deep receptions? Right? Or at the very least, a game where he had more than 81 yards receiving...right?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Wait, so every deep threat gets safety help on every play?

There's been no attempt to respond to this point yet. I do admire your persistence though.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Ok...so if he was still his old self, then games against pushovers like Cincy, Buffalo, Dallas and GB would have resulted in more than just a handful of spectacular, deep receptions? Right? Or at the very least, a game where he had more than 81 yards receiving...right?

You can also cherry-pick weeks where the Cincy, Buffalo, Dallas, and GB defenses have looked awesome this season. It's a week-to-week league, you can't just pick the stats which support your argument.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by molson

So if next week, Moss signs somwewhere and gets one 40+ yard completition, he will jump back into your "deep threat" category?

If you don't bother reading my full posts, then why respond to them?

[SirFozzie]

Sun: What you're apparently missing is.. they're using the THREAT of Moss deep to open up for other receivers. Because of Randy Moss, Wes Welker had a ton more room underneath. Because of Randy Moss, Percy Harvin had a ton more room.

The Pats don't play the big bomb style any more, and Brett Favre CAN'T throw those deep bombs any more.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Wait, so every deep threat gets safety help on every play?

Nope...why would you assume this? What does me saying Moss gets safety help on every play, have anything to do with other receivers? You're taking two separate comments I make, and trying to meld them into one.

Try again.

Moss has been amazing in years past, but this year he can't beat the double team.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How many deep pass interference penalties does he draw?

Couldn't tell you...why don't you find out and get back to me.

k thx

In re: to getting other guys open, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. In years past, sure I bet he was great at it. This year? I'd argue he's not doing it any better than anyone else that can run a streak. Again...I stated this multiple times.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Moss has been amazing in years past, but this year he can't beat the double team.

He doesn't need to to make his team better.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Get 'em and lmk if Randy is on there.

k thx

I'm busy looking at Suicide Girls.