NFL 2022-23 Season Thread

[Carman Bulldog]

Speaking of young quarterbacks, some takes in this thread starting here are interesting to look back on. Needless to say, this board did not have nice things to say about Josh Allen after his first three starts. Not a lot of love for Dak after his first two full seasons as a starter either. Wentz, Goff and Mahomes were all fawned over.

I think it was so entertaining, that we should do it again. Rank/tier, the following quarterbacks from the 2020 and 2021 drafts...

Joe Burrow
Tua Tagovailoa
Justin Herbert
Jordan Love
Jalen Hurts
Trevor Lawrence
Zach Wilson
Trey Lance
Justin Fields
Mac Jones
Davis Mills

Lance and Love are definitely the toughest to assess but that's part of the fun at this stage.

[stevew]

Crazy good interception to end this game.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Because it wouldn't be a Browns season without something like this happening: Myles Garret flipped his Porsche and now in the hospital.

Myles Garrett Cleveland Browns car crash

I was curious about this, because it happened within about a half mile from a house that we really wanted, but was sold before we could sell our old house. It was perfect for us, and the one we ended up buying is older, more suburban, and we've had to do a lot of work.

So, absolutely straight shot, country road, good visibility, a few hundred feet from a stop sign, but still before you even see the stop ahead sign, no sun issue at 3:00. Single-car, flipped multiple times (speed limit is 45 there). No idea how that could happen. You could travel that stretch 1,000 times and not have any issue at all.

[Lathum]

Speeding and swerving to avoid an animal possible scenario. Also could have dropped his phone and swerved trying to pick it up. Those two are common.

[albionmoonlight]

Good illustration of Q's point about the NFL's statistical revolution maybe still not quite having happened yet:

Fight @pff @NextGenStats pic.twitter.com/XkFOxxGaO7

— Ryan (@datboywolf) September 27, 2022

We understand that things like "how open are the receivers getting?" is important and something that can, in theory, be measured. But maybe we aren't being rigorous enough in deciding what we mean by all this stuff, yet.

[Ryche]

In the top 10
Joe Burrow
Justin Herbert
Jalen Hurts

Almost there
Tua Tagovailoa
Trevor Lawrence

Solid starter
Mac Jones

Bottom end starters
Justin Fields
Davis Mills

Time is running out to show something but it's possible
Zach Wilson
Trey Lance

Nope
Jordan Love

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Good illustration of Q's point about the NFL's statistical revolution maybe still not quite having happened yet:

Fight @pff @NextGenStats pic.twitter.com/XkFOxxGaO7

— Ryan (@datboywolf) September 27, 2022

We understand that things like "how open are the receivers getting?" is important and something that can, in theory, be measured. But maybe we aren't being rigorous enough in deciding what we mean by all this stuff, yet.

Back in the days when I was tuned into baseball, I remember all the conflicting data regarding defensive zone ratings. It was more or less a labor of love and trusting one source or another because there were no banks of rfid data at hand. Later, that gave the community ammunition to back the widespread assumption that Derek Jeter was winning Gold Gloves because of his high fielding percentage while doing a reasonable impression of a statue at shortstop.

Baseball has few moving parts, and technology quickly gave us a handful of useful pieces, like exit velocity and spin information, that people can digest if interested.

NextGen is a giant data dump. It is entirely possible to come up with all sorts of interesting statistics related to where players are at every instant. I don't see any disconnect in the ideas that individual Saints players can have high average "openness" per target (targeting a player is a quarterback decision) and yet a low separation per play.

This could reflect Winston's high turnover numbers. He was on the verge of out of football because of this, but has improved. Perhaps he's overly cautious because he doesn't read the defense well and that's where the improvement has come from. Or plays are designed to allow one player to get more open while more are decoys or more setting up to block.

There are so many conflicts in the way of creating independent variables. With 22 players all working at once (as opposed to one with baseball plus the occasional overlap on defense), and it being impossible to glean what a player was trying to do without reviewing the film - something NextGen is far too large to get into, what we see is just random noise. And we take what we can out of that noise.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't see any disconnect in the ideas that individual Saints players can have high average "openness" per target (targeting a player is a quarterback decision) and yet a low separation per play.

I thought about that, also in the 2nd stat, Smith only has 4 catches so the tiny sample size makes that misleading at best.

[sabotai]

Sterling Shepard suffered a torn ACL on the Giants last offensive play last night.

https://youtu.be/4YEbt2dNJOM

[albionmoonlight]

Thanks for the insight, Jim

[stevew]

Tier 1
Lawrence
Hurts
Burrow
Hebert

Probably tier 1
Jones
Tua

Trash
Mills
Fields
Love
Lance

Trash and bangs MILFS
Wilson

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Ryche

In the top 10
Joe Burrow
Justin Herbert
Jalen Hurts

Almost there
Tua Tagovailoa
Trevor Lawrence

Solid starter
Mac Jones

Bottom end starters
Justin Fields
Davis Mills

Time is running out to show something but it's possible
Zach Wilson
Trey Lance

Nope
Jordan Love

This looks pretty good to me, as of right now. If we wanted to force a call and remove the "time is running out" category and press them into categories then I'd dump Wilson (and Mills) into NOPE and Lance into "Bottom end."

[Solecismic]

I'm unsure, since three years is generally the standard for judging a player who needs to develop - and all quarterbacks fall into this category.

Class of 2020:

Burrow and Herbert look like veterans already, and top tier. Hurts is playing like he'll get there as well.

Tagovailoa: some positives, may have taken that next step, but he was looking fairly disappointing after two seasons. Wait and see. My guess is he is good enough to maintain a starting role, but not top tier.

Love: Was he supposed to win the starting job from Rodgers? Not sure how he gets anything but an incomplete. Given the cost, the Packers aren't going to pick up his fifth year option, so he's in an unusual space. The downside is that he got a lot of preseason action and looked bad this summer.

Class of 2021:

Jones is coming off a remarkable rookie season. Now he has to deal with an injury, but was looking like he maintained that level. So, potential top tier there.

Lawrence: seeing some of that potential now. Do we want to attribute a dreadful rookie year to coaching issues? I hesitate, but he certainly gets this season to make a case for top tier potential. Off to a very good start this year.

Mills: Pressed into service too early - he wasn't drafted with starter in mind. Playing like a third-rounder who could have a nice career as a backup. Hopefully the light turns on, but I'd be surprised. Houston needs to think about getting someone.

Wilson: I think he gets more chances, because you don't give up on a #2 pick so easily, but he was historic-level bad as a starter last year. I doubt he'll reach dependable starter level.

Fields: Is 13 starts enough? Wilson has had 13 as well, and Fields has actually made him look OK by comparison. I don't know about this mechanics thing - it's the decision-making that has left so much to be desired. He gets the rest of this season, but it's looking like a hard fail there.

Lance: He's already had some electric moments, but almost no time to show them off, and we're already looking at year three. I see a lot of potential, but no way to know. My guess is that he turns it around as long as he can get healthy and stay healthy, which is not a given. I wouldn't write off Lance becoming top tier at some point. He's only 22.

Let's not forget Kyle Trask. He might well be starting next season (or later this season, even).

Generally, the draft identifies quarterback potential. But it wasn't that long ago you saw this... "2. Mitch Trubisky, 10. Patrick Mahomes, 12. Deshaun Watson."

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Love: Was he supposed to win the starting job from Rodgers? Not sure how he gets anything but an incomplete. Given the cost, the Packers aren't going to pick up his fifth year option, so he's in an unusual space. The downside is that he got a lot of preseason action and looked bad this summer.

Huge own goal from the organization, here. I'm still curious as to what their strategy was behind this.

Lawrence: seeing some of that potential now. Do we want to attribute a dreadful rookie year to coaching issues?

I feel the answer to this has to be "yes", right? When was the last HC situation that was as much of a dumpster fire as Urban Meyer?

But it wasn't that long ago you saw this... "2. Mitch Trubisky, 10. Patrick Mahomes, 12. Deshaun Watson."

Heh....

[miami_fan]

NFL Security Reportedly Looking Into Practice Incident - The Spun: What's Trending In The Sports World Today

[bhlloy]

But we can’t discipline somebody for trying to murder somebody else with a couple of helmets amirite

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

But we can’t discipline somebody for trying to murder somebody else with a couple of helmets amirite

That was just a bit of passion in a man's game. This is cheating.

[NobodyHere]

Anyone else rooting for the Cincinnati Zebras tonight?

[cuervo72]

The white uniforms are fine, but the white line for the LOS doesn't exactly work.

[sabotai]

That didn't look good. Tua might be seriously hurt.

[NobodyHere]

And down goes Tua

[Jas_lov]

He shouldn't have been playing tonight.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

He shouldn't have been playing tonight.

Yep

Dolphins are rightfully gonna get a lot of heat for this.

[thesloppy]

He wasn't even moving on the cart.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

He wasn't even moving on the cart.

Those fingers will haunt my dreams tonight. Not joking.

[Lathum]

I shit talk Tua but really hope he is ok. Should have never been in that game.

[Lathum]

Tua Tagovailoa has been taken to a local hospital for further evaluation. He is conscious and has movement in all his extremities.

— Miami Dolphins (@MiamiDolphins) September 30, 2022

[Izulde]

Tough loss, but the game was winnable until Bridgewater made that horrible misread and threw the interception that had a monster runback.

FB Dolphins fans being FB Dolphins fans, a lot of them are screaming about Skylar (I *really* hate the fanbase on FB).

Still, I'll take 3-1. I figured realistically 1-3 at this point, 2-2 in the realm of possibility

[Edward64]

Didn't see the game but wish Tua the best.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Tough loss, but the game was winnable until Bridgewater made that horrible misread and threw the interception that had a monster runback.

FB Dolphins fans being FB Dolphins fans, a lot of them are screaming about Skylar (I *really* hate the fanbase on FB).

Still, I'll take 3-1. I figured realistically 1-3 at this point, 2-2 in the realm of possibility

I did not watch the game last night and I have been running around most of the day. I did spend about two hours at the gym this morning while taking quick glances at the TV showing Get Up between sets. I know more about what else happened in the game from this post than I did from anything that was on that TV this morning.

I know I come off as callous but I thought everyone had accepted this is what the NFL was.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I know I come off as callous but I thought everyone had accepted this is what the NFL was.

This. To hear all the former-players-turned-analysts say the permanent brain damage was "all part of the game," it makes me wonder why this insanity is still allowed.

[albionmoonlight]

The Tua thing got my wife asking if there is anything the NFL could do that would get me to stop watching football.

I could not really think of anything.

There were a couple of recent events that would have caused me to stop rooting for the Saints (1. If they had signed DeShaun Watson, or 2. If those rumors of them helping the Catholic Church cover-up child sex abuse had been true). But even then, I think that I would have still watched football generally.

Even as I agree that the Dolphins treated Tua like a piece of meat, I kept watching most of the rest of that game.

[NobodyHere]

Probably the only thing that would get me to stop watching the NFL is if they put their content behind paywalls that I don't already subscribe to.

I'm not going to spend money to watch the Lions and Browns lose.

Oh, and kneeling

[Kodos]

I feel like a player dying on the field would cause me to punch out from football entirely. I'm already uncomfortable with the long-term brain damage these guys get entertaining us.

[HomerSimpson98]

The Tua thing is soooooo weird to me. The Dolphins and the NFL are swearing that last week's injury was not head related. But the way he acted sure looks like it was. Yet he plays.

Then last night, I thought the guy was in a coma or something with his reaction. Nothing but the worst thoughts entered all of our minds I'm sure. But then, he goes to the hospital. Is cleared. And then flies home with the team?


What the fuck?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The Tua thing got my wife asking if there is anything the NFL could do that would get me to stop watching football.

I could not really think of anything.

There were a couple of recent events that would have caused me to stop rooting for the Saints (1. If they had signed DeShaun Watson, or 2. If those rumors of them helping the Catholic Church cover-up child sex abuse had been true). But even then, I think that I would have still watched football generally.

Even as I agree that the Dolphins treated Tua like a piece of meat, I kept watching most of the rest of that game.

i'm in this place too, both philosophically and matrimonially

[Solecismic]

This was a major focus for the NFLPA when CTE came to the forefront. And they were already starting an investigation last week. I think we have to trust that the pieces are in place for a clear look at what happened.

If the Dolphins listed Tua as having a back injury when it, indeed, was a concussion last week, then this needs to result in lost draft picks, fines, maybe even McDaniel's removal.

As for the future of the game, we'll see that more decided by high schools. If high schools start dropping football in key areas, that's eventually going to lead to change. But I think it's more popular than ever right now.

[QuikSand]

An awful lot in this Tua story seems to rest on the deep expertise of a bunch of guys on their couches.

[NobodyHere]

Is there any other kind of expertise?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

An awful lot in this Tua story seems to rest on the deep expertise of a bunch of guys on their couches.

"a bunch of guys on their couches" thought Tua probably had a concussion last week, we were assured that wasn't the case. "a bunch of guys on their couches" were quite certain we saw him get one Thursday night as we waited for him to be stretchered off to a trauma center. But apparently he might have laughed at MacGruber on the way home, so we're all wrong.

Idk, I could buy back injury last week, but now? Holy shit no he got concussed last night (or there is something else seriously wrong with his body that should make him question playing in the NFL). If team medical professionals disagree the burden of proof is on them now, and I honestly wonder if you made them address it publicly what they would say at risk of losing their license vs the Dolphins coaching staff/PR team.

[sabotai]

The Dolphins confirmed he got a concussion in Thursday night's game.

Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa in concussion protocol, no timetable for return

[larrymcg421]

Again, I'm hearing so many different stories about what the Dolphins supposedly did wrong that all describe a different process for the concussion protocol.

Anyone know the answer to these questions....

Can the Dolphins doctors clear a player if the NFL doctor does not?

Did the Dolphins staff conclude Tua had a back injury or was it the NFL doctor?

What is the step by step process for the concussion protocol? Is it even possible for a team to subvert it?

[Kodos]

I think I read that the team doctor has the final say. Which seems wrong.

[Sweed]

Tommy Kramer is the first thing I thought of when Tua went down. I was watching Kramer's game and remember the reaction to the hit, hard to forget, but I couldn't have told you what year. The link shows Oct. 1978. Kramer's hands went into a similar spasm too. I know at some time I've seen footage of the play where Kramer got hurt but searching for it now on youtube gets no result. Scrubbed away or just lost? I mean Jim Everett turning into Chris Evert is there... As I said I do remember Kramer and his hands but I don't remember the hit itself. It was Jack Youngblood and he was tough but have no idea if it was a pickup slam, swing around plant, or something that just happened in the follow through of a normal tackle with head hitting the ground?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-8a6193952bc0/

This was in the infancy of rules to protect the QB. Commish Rozelle's comments and especially George Allen's, former Redskin's coach are interesting to read.

[BishopMVP]

I do wonder if the NFL uses the same baseline protocol stuff Massachusetts implemented for HS sports a few years back. Year 1 we had kids I don't think were concussed being held out for weeks because they couldn't meet their baseline test, year 2 a few kids figured this out, and by year 3 pretty much every good athlete at the school was intentionally putting up low scores. We held several kids out longer after they were "medically cleared" even when the kid was pushing to play, but that urge to play is a powerful thing even at a level where there is $0 at stake.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Again, I'm hearing so many different stories about what the Dolphins supposedly did wrong that all describe a different process for the concussion protocol.

Anyone know the answer to these questions....

Can the Dolphins doctors clear a player if the NFL doctor does not?

Did the Dolphins staff conclude Tua had a back injury or was it the NFL doctor?

What is the step by step process for the concussion protocol? Is it even possible for a team to subvert it?

My source is an article in the Athletic on how the protocol works.

If the team’s medical staff feels any player is at risk of a concussion, they are required to pull the player to the sideline and into the medical tent for a focused neurological exam. The exam includes a cervical spine exam (including range of motion and pain), an evaluation of speech, observation of gait, and an eye movement and pupillary exam. If the player displays signs of any loss of consciousness, gross motor inability, confusion or amnesia, team medical staff are not permitted to let the player return to action.

The thing most people are keying on is the emboldened part. Watching him trying to get up and walk plus him having to be assisted off the field should have been enough of a sign to prevent him from returning to action. That has nothing to do with an actual concussion diagnosis. The article did not specifically say who decides a player has a concussion and how they come to that diagnosis. It does say that each step of the league’s concussion protocol is determined by a team physician in consultation with an unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant on the sideline. To me that reads like the team physician has final say on everything including the decision to place a player in the protocol.

Once in the protocol, the player has to pass the following five phases to get out of the protocol.

Phase 1, symptom-limited activity: The player is prescribed resting, limiting, or if necessary, avoiding activities that increase or aggravate symptoms. Under athletic training staff supervision, limited stretching and balance training can be introduced, progressing to light aerobic exercise, all as tolerated.

Phase 2, aerobic exercise: Under the supervision of team staff, players should begin graduated cardiovascular exercise and may also engage in dynamic stretching and balancing training.

Phase 3, football-specific exercise: The player continues supervised cardiovascular exercises that are increased and may mimic sport-specific activities, and supervised strength training is introduced.

Phase 4, non-contact training drills: The player is encouraged to continue cardiovascular, strength and balance training, team-based sports-specific exercise and participate in non-contact football activities.

Phase 5, full football activity/clearance: The player is finally cleared by the club doctor for full football activity involving contact. The player must be examined by the independent neurological consultant assigned to his club. If the consultant agrees with the club physician that the player’s concussion has resolved, he may participate in his team’s next practice or game.

However, the article also stated that until the player is cleared by the independent consultant, he may not return to contact practice or play in an NFL game. Now I don't know how the independent consultant suddenly get to decide that a player is cleared given everything that went before. Of course none of that is irrelevant if someone made the call that it was a back injury. I highly doubt that the independent neurotrauma consultant is making that call.

And well score one for the guys on the couch.

Unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant who evaluated Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa fired over 'several mistakes,' source says

[larrymcg421]

I hope we get a timeline at some point about who made what decisions and at what point they made those decisions.

However, your 2nd article seems to clear up that he did go in the protocol and that he passed the protocol. Now, who conducted the protocol tests and if they correctly followed the protocol procedure or not, is certainly within question.

The focus on the decision to call it a back injury (whoever it was) seems weird, because that seems to have had no impact on what decisions were made. It didn't prevent them from putting him in the protocol.

[Thomkal]

consultant fired:


Unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant who evaluated Miami Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa fired over 'several mistakes,' sources say

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I hope we get a timeline at some point about who made what decisions and at what point they made those decisions.

However, your 2nd article seems to clear up that he did go in the protocol and that he passed the protocol. Now, who conducted the protocol tests and if they correctly followed the protocol procedure or not, is certainly within question.

The focus on the decision to call it a back injury (whoever it was) seems weird, because that seems to have had no impact on what decisions were made. It didn't prevent them from putting him in the protocol.

I feel like timeline and interpretation of the terminology is going to matter in this case. My reading was that the player does not enter the concussion protocol until he is actually diagnosed and sidelined with a concussion. The Dolphins and the NFL are saying that he was evaluated and passed the concussion testing at halftime. But if that initial testing is considered entering the protocol, then I am wrong.

There is no question that Tua displayed signs of "motor inability" directly after the play. Whether that rose to the standard of gross motor inability I guess is a medical determination. I also don't know if the video of Tua's actions immediately after the hit is considered as part of the testing protocol. If it did and it does, he was not supposed to return to the game regardless of whether he was specifically diagnosed with a concussion or not according to the info I posted earlier. That does not mean he did not have a back injury as well.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I do wonder if the NFL uses the same baseline protocol stuff Massachusetts implemented for HS sports a few years back. Year 1 we had kids I don't think were concussed being held out for weeks because they couldn't meet their baseline test, year 2 a few kids figured this out, and by year 3 pretty much every good athlete at the school was intentionally putting up low scores. We held several kids out longer after they were "medically cleared" even when the kid was pushing to play, but that urge to play is a powerful thing even at a level where there is $0 at stake.

They do. I listened to a former player on local radio this week talk about ways NFL players would try to get around the concussion testing and protocols because they did not want to be ruled out of games. He did say that pros would do the same thing you described those high school athletes were doing. He said the thing with the Tua incident is players especially offensive players are expected to bounce back up after a big hit to show that he was not affected by the hit no matter how much pain they were in. That is exactly what Tua did. The player said if Tua had just laid on the field, not try to walk it off while he cleared the cobwebs a little bit, then walked to the locker room with the assistance of the medical staff and everything else plays out as it did on Sunday, we don't have the controversy before the game on Thursday. The wobble is what did him in according to the player He also said that players would tell other players to make sure they kept them on the ground in such cases for just this reason.