2011-12 MLB Offseason Thread: Tigers are really stupid

[Logan]

Interested in seeing the structure of the deal.

[Logan]

And also in seeing CR's reaction.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I think the Angels will regret this deal sooner rather than later.

Don't skills begin to appreciably decline between 35 and 37 years of age? And rumors are out there that Pujols is actually older than 32?

So you'll get three maybe four years of solid production...

I would be mildly surprised if they even get 3-4 years of solid production from him. The only thing that helps Pujols is that in the AL he can play DH and extend his career a few more years, but still.....

[Logan]

I may have missed a couple reports here and there, but believe I saw STL saying that they never went to the 10th year and it was still hanging close to $200MM over 9. So the Angels paid him $50-60MM more for another year to get him to move?

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You know what I expect? Zumaya to sign elsewhere and put up All-Star numbers.

I remember watching his arm explode live in 2010. He's done.

[GoldenEagle]

As a Cardinal fan, I am sad to see him go but glad the Cards didn't totally wreck the future.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

You know what I expect? Zumaya to sign elsewhere and put up All-Star numbers.

I wish he could iron out those arm problems and be the shutdown reliever he was meant to be. Very disappointing so far, but you are probably right.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Logan

I may have missed a couple reports here and there, but believe I saw STL saying that they never went to the 10th year and it was still hanging close to $200MM over 9. So the Angels paid him $50-60MM more for another year to get him to move?

Does the 10th year really even mean anything? I look at it as 50-60 million more for whatever his career allows, and the years talked about are pretty much just irrelevant.

[panerd]

There's a lot of reasons the Cardinals have been consistantly good throughout the history of the franchise and not offering this contract is one of them.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Pujols has no opt-outs in his contract.

[albionmoonlight]

Cards played this great. Get production and WS titles out of a guy. Then let him walk before he starts to decline.

[Thomkal]

*sigh* sad to see my favorite player leave my favorite team, but I'm not sure there was anything they could do to keep him given he was out there for anybody to make an offer for. It's a shame that Pujols and Cards management couldn't have worked out something in February, but I'm sure his agent made sure he'd reach the open market. Would it really have hurt Pujols to get a little less money to stay with an organization and town that loved him?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I'm guessing it's just about the money.

Yeah, I agree. Oh well. Not a Cardinals fan, but I do like it when people decide to stay with the team they got famous with.

[MikeVic]

Well that sucks, I wanted to see any more possibilities of this:

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Well that sucks, I wanted to see any more possibilities of this:

Logan hates you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Well that sucks, I wanted to see any more possibilities of this:

Dick. (lol)

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yeah, I agree. Oh well. Not a Cardinals fan, but I do like it when people decide to stay with the team they got famous with.

This is why a guy like Jeter staying with the Yankees is so important. You just don't see that kind of loyalty in any sport anymore.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

This is why a guy like Jeter staying with the Yankees is so important. You just don't see that kind of loyalty in any sport anymore.

This is laughable. Jeter milked the Yankees for absolutely every dollar throughout his career.

[Arles]

The last deal I heard from St. Louis wasn't the 10/220 reported incorrectly, but I think a 10/210. They started out at 9@22 per and added a year over the past 2 days. I can't blame Pujols for taking 10/260, but it's pretty obvious that he was a little disingenuous when he said it wasn't about the money a year+ ago.

I can see how Anaheim can justify this type of deal given they've been fairly irrelevant for the past 5 years and have an opportunity in a large market (esp with the Dodgers floundering), plus they have the DH to stash him for years 6-10 on the contract. But, there is no way the Cards could justify 10/240 - let alone 260. Their payroll needs to be in the $100-$120 range and paying around 1/4 to a 32+ year old 1B is franchise suicide. I was willing to talk myself into him staying at around $21 mil per for 9 (or even 10). But I couldn't honestly buy into $26 mil for 10.

We'll see what the Cards do, but I don't see them tanking now. They have a solid nucleus and a strong system. If they can sign an OF, SS and a pitcher or two, they should be the favorite for the central.

[ISiddiqui]

Not sure if this had been brought up yet, but Yu Darvish looks like he's coming over to the Majors:

Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters' Yu Darvish wants to play Major League Baseball next season - ESPN

[Ksyrup]

The difference is that the Yankees had the money, and therefore the willingness, to overpay Jeter later on in his career to make up for the bargain they got early on. The Cards don't have that luxury. As albion said, they made out great - they got HoF production and 2 WS titles for a bargain, and then when the player expected to be "repaid" in essence for the bargain, the Cards let someone else foot the bill.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

a little less money

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Best I can tell, the difference was somewhere between $25m - $60M. If that's "a little less" then my math skills need some work.

[Ksyrup]

I guess the next question is how many years can Boras get Fielder? Could the Cards slide that money over to him, for maybe 6 years?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

This is laughable. Jeter milked the Yankees for absolutely every dollar throughout his career.

This. His last contract was waaay out of proportion for his value. No one was going to offer him that.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Does the 10th year really even mean anything? I look at it as 50-60 million more for whatever his career allows, and the years talked about are pretty much just irrelevant.

I was talking more the money than the year. They improved on the best offer by anywhere from 20-25%. That's pretty big.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

This is laughable. Jeter milked the Yankees for absolutely every dollar throughout his career.

Are we talking about a player staying with one team, or getting the most money he possibly can? I would argue that Jeter earned every dollar he made with the Yankees until the last year or two. Pujols could have stayed with Cards and made almost as much as he will with the Angels, but he chose not to. That is the difference I was referring to regarding loyalty.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Are we talking about a player staying with one team, or getting the most money he possibly can? I would argue that Jeter earned every dollar he made with the Yankees until the last year or two. Pujols could have stayed with Cards and made almost as much as he will with the Angels, but he chose not to. That is the difference I was referring to regarding loyalty.

How do we know that Jeter is "loyal" to the Yankees when no one ever offered him more to play elsewhere?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This. His last contract was waaay out of proportion for his value. No one was going to offer him that.

The same could be said for Pujols with this contract.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Logan

And also in seeing CR's reaction.

Well, here it is.

I am of two minds, as you might expect.

First mind, I am stunned and happy for the immediate future for my team, especially if they are serious about also signing CJ Wilson. Getting a name like Pujols is truly a bold move, and one I got used to the Angels not ever making, except for Vladdy in 2004 (and even that kinda fell in their laps). I realize I am going to need to go to more games this year, because this is kinda like a commitment from Moreno to the fans, and we need to get his back (and we will, that place will be full all year and beyond).

Second mind, I am incredibly skeptical about the longterm wisdom of this deal, with a full NTC for the whole length, as well as no opt outs. I am worried that Pujols, as great as he is now, might "Helton" the Angels in a few years. That is a lot of money. I believe Moreno said a $140 M payroll is about his break even point. This puts the team, after projected arb figures, at around $150 M with the average of Pujols' deal tossed in (although he's probably going to be making less this year, maybe even a lot less, because of the Angels' high payroll).

Moreno is taking an incredible risk, one that will definite the franchise for the next decade. And probably moves the "Big Three" (Yanks, Sox, Phils) into the "Big Four" when small market versus big market is considered (although I truly believe in the long run, the Dodgers, Mets and Cubs under better management will end up just as big spenders).

And they're still talking about signin CJ Wilson, which I had expected to wake up to this morning.

My apologies as an Angels fan to Cards fans. I know this must be hard. I have always liked the Cards. And the Angels have come in second a whole ton of times.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I guess the next question is how many years can Boras get Fielder? Could the Cards slide that money over to him, for maybe 6 years?

I'll guess 8/$170 million. Don't think the Cards will be in on him though.

Things will heat up with Prince now. You know it's been pretty quiet when Boras has been trying to play up the Brewers as still being in on him. That ain't happening now especially after KRod accepted arby.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

CJ Wilson looks like he's joining Albert.

edit: 5/75

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

*sigh* sad to see my favorite player leave my favorite team, but I'm not sure there was anything they could do to keep him given he was out there for anybody to make an offer for. It's a shame that Pujols and Cards management couldn't have worked out something in February, but I'm sure his agent made sure he'd reach the open market. Would it really have hurt Pujols to get a little less money to stay with an organization and town that loved him?

My feelings as well. I don't fault Pujols for trying to get as much money as he could, but I suspect he isn't considering the non-monetary elements of this deal as much as he could, or should, have. This is a contract that will inevitably see him decline substantially, and that decline would have been tolerated/understood/forgiven by Cardinals fans who remembered all the great things he had done for the team (and community) over the years. Will Angels fans be as forgiving when his decline begins? Given the lack of an established goodwill reservoir like he has with St. Louis, and the high hopes Angels fans will attach to him as their first "huge" free agent acquisition, a compassionate attitude toward declining production seems unlikely. He would have to win a couple of World Series titles almost instantly to make that happen.

More likely is that he will come to be perceived as an overpaid mercenary in a 3-4 years, resented by teammates and fans alike. My guess is that when Pujols hits age 55 or so, and gains the perspective that allows him to see what a Musial-like legend he could have become in St. Louis, he will find this to be the most regrettable decision of his career. Would you rather have $310 million in lifetime earnings and be a beloved icon in your community for the rest of your life? Or would you rather have $360 million in lifetime earnings and have your employer and fans hoping to forget you as soon as possible? I know which I would prefer.

Like I said, I don't begrudge Pujols his extra $50 million, but I question his judgment. There is much more to living a full life than money, particularly when you've already got mounds and mounds of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

Like I said, I don't begrudge Pujols his extra $50 million, but I question his judgment. There is much more to living a full life than money, particularly when you've already got mounds and mounds of it.

An extra $50 million most likely secures the future of an additional generation of Pujols descendents.

On the whole, the world would be welcome to hate my ass for that tradeoff. (Plenty of people are willing to do that for a lot less money).

[Chief Rum]

Let's say that happens and the Angels sign CJ Wilson as well.

I expect they will start to try to unload "unnecessary contracts".

They will offer Morales around although I expect it will be better to keep him until he proves his value and then decide if they should then deal him.

They may offer around Santana if they can get a cheaper solid starter back in return.

They will definitely look to move both Abreu and Wells (good luck), and start Mike Trout in the OF.

And they're going to have to figure out what to do with DH-1B until then, because right now they have Pujols, Trumbo, Morales and Abreu for that spot.

[Fonzie]

And for what it's worth, this Cardinals fan is glad they didn't sign him to the $252 million contract. I wasn't all that comfortable with the $220 million figure, either, so I'm actually a tad relieved about all of this.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

How do we know that Jeter is "loyal" to the Yankees when no one ever offered him more to play elsewhere?

I would guess (and this is just hypothetical thinking of course) that Jeter never wanted to go anywhere else, and the rest of MLB probably knew this and had no reason to offer him a contract. He is, and always has been, a big market player who loved the limelight.

Take a look at this article from 2001.

More specifically, this:

"I never intended to play elsewhere," Jeter said, "and to be honest with you, never intended to look elsewhere."

And this:

Jeter had been eligible for free agency after this season but he had no desire to follow Rodriguez's example and test his value on the market.
"I couldn't picture it," Jeter said. "I really felt there was no reason to see if the grass was greener on the other side. Even if I had played out the year, my first choice would have been New York."

Love him or hate him, Jeter has been very loyal to the Yankees over the years.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

The same could be said for Pujols with this contract.

No, it really can't. The hometown team's offer was eclipsed by another. If you are talking loyalty, that means staying with your team even when others may offer you more.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I can't imagine how you consider it loyalty when he didn't sacrifice a single thing. Would it have been loyalty from Pujols if he'd managed to get the Cards to go up to 260 million and stayed?

[Ksyrup]

Re Jeter, it's easy to say when you know the team will pay you.

Fast-forward 15 years, and if STL had ponied up $250M, Pujols could have cut-and-pasted those Jeter quotes, and we'd be putting him in the same sentences as Musial for being a career Cardinal.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, here it is.

I am of two minds, as you might expect.

First mind, I am stunned and happy for the immediate future for my team, especially if they are serious about also signing CJ Wilson. Getting a name like Pujols is truly a bold move, and one I got used to the Angels not ever making, except for Vladdy in 2004 (and even that kinda fell in their laps). I realize I am going to need to go to more games this year, because this is kinda like a commitment from Moreno to the fans, and we need to get his back (and we will, that place will be full all year and beyond).

Second mind, I am incredibly skeptical about the longterm wisdom of this deal, with a full NTC for the whole length, as well as no opt outs. I am worried that Pujols, as great as he is now, might "Helton" the Angels in a few years. That is a lot of money. I believe Moreno said a $140 M payroll is about his break even point. This puts the team, after projected arb figures, at around $150 M with the average of Pujols' deal tossed in (although he's probably going to be making less this year, maybe even a lot less, because of the Angels' high payroll).

Moreno is taking an incredible risk, one that will definite the franchise for the next decade. And probably moves the "Big Three" (Yanks, Sox, Phils) into the "Big Four" when small market versus big market is considered (although I truly believe in the long run, the Dodgers, Mets and Cubs under better management will end up just as big spenders).

And they're still talking about signin CJ Wilson, which I had expected to wake up to this morning.

My apologies as an Angels fan to Cards fans. I know this must be hard. I have always liked the Cards. And the Angels have come in second a whole ton of times.

Originally Posted by Fonzie

My feelings as well. I don't fault Pujols for trying to get as much money as he could, but I suspect he isn't considering the non-monetary elements of this deal as much as he could, or should, have. This is a contract that will inevitably see him decline substantially, and that decline would have been tolerated/understood/forgiven by Cardinals fans who remembered all the great things he had done for the team (and community) over the years. Will Angels fans be as forgiving when his decline begins? Given the lack of an established goodwill reservoir like he has with St. Louis, and the high hopes Angels fans will attach to him as their first "huge" free agent acquisition, a compassionate attitude toward declining production seems unlikely. He would have to win a couple of World Series titles almost instantly to make that happen.

More likely is that he will come to be perceived as an overpaid mercenary in a 3-4 years, resented by teammates and fans alike. My guess is that when Pujols hits age 55 or so, and gains the perspective that allows him to see what a Musial-like legend he could have become in St. Louis, he will find this to be the most regrettable decision of his career. Would you rather have $310 million in lifetime earnings and be a beloved icon in your community for the rest of your life? Or would you rather have $360 million in lifetime earnings and have your employer and fans hoping to forget you as soon as possible? I know which I would prefer.

Like I said, I don't begrudge Pujols his extra $50 million, but I question his judgment. There is much more to living a full life than money, particularly when you've already got mounds and mounds of it.

Two of the best postings on this board I have seen in a long, long time.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

My feelings as well. I don't fault Pujols for trying to get as much money as he could, but I suspect he isn't considering the non-monetary elements of this deal as much as he could, or should, have. This is a contract that will inevitably see him decline substantially, and that decline would have been tolerated/understood/forgiven by Cardinals fans who remembered all the great things he had done for the team (and community) over the years. Will Angels fans be as forgiving when his decline begins? Given the lack of an established goodwill reservoir like he has with St. Louis, and the high hopes Angels fans will attach to him as their first "huge" free agent acquisition, a compassionate attitude toward declining production seems unlikely. He would have to win a couple of World Series titles almost instantly to make that happen.

More likely is that he will come to be perceived as an overpaid mercenary in a 3-4 years, resented by teammates and fans alike. My guess is that when Pujols hits age 55 or so, and gains the perspective that allows him to see what a Musial-like legend he could have become in St. Louis, he will find this to be the most regrettable decision of his career. Would you rather have $310 million in lifetime earnings and be a beloved icon in your community for the rest of your life? Or would you rather have $360 million in lifetime earnings and have your employer and fans hoping to forget you as soon as possible? I know which I would prefer.

Like I said, I don't begrudge Pujols his extra $50 million, but I question his judgment. There is much more to living a full life than money, particularly when you've already got mounds and mounds of it.

This.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

As a Sox fan, the most obvious case of loyalty that I can find is Wakefield's continually rolling team-option-at-4-million contract. Now that is someone giving up a ton of leverage to stay with a team.

And seeing as how he still wants to stay with the Sox but the Sox don't want him back (as a starter), goes to show you that this "loyalty" is most likely a one way street. Which is why no one can begrudge Albert.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No, it really can't. The hometown team's offer was eclipsed by another. If you are talking loyalty, that means staying with your team even when others may offer you more.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I can't imagine how you consider it loyalty when he didn't sacrifice a single thing. Would it have been loyalty from Pujols if he'd managed to get the Cards to go up to 260 million and stayed?

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Re Jeter, it's easy to say when you know the team will pay you.

Fast-forward 15 years, and if STL had ponied up $250M, Pujols could have cut-and-pasted those Jeter quotes, and we'd be putting him in the same sentences as Musial for being a career Cardinal.

Clearly people just like to argue and I should know better than to express a different opinion. (yes this is hyperbole)

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

An extra $50 million most likely secures the future of an additional generation of Pujols descendents.

On the whole, the world would be welcome to hate my ass for that tradeoff. (Plenty of people are willing to do that for a lot less money).

Would you feel the same way if you already had 310 million?

[ISiddiqui]

I really don't think you know what loyalty means.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Clearly people just like to argue and I should know better than to express a different opinion. (yes this is hyperbole)

Clearly some people just like to say things and retreat when questioned whether what they say is true.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

As a Sox fan, the most obvious case of loyalty that I can find is Wakefield's continually rolling team-option-at-4-million contract. Now that is someone giving up a ton of leverage to stay with a team.

And seeing as how he still wants to stay with the Sox but the Sox don't want him back (as a starter), goes to show you that this "loyalty" is most likely a one way street. Which is why no one can begrudge Albert.

Preach!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Would you feel the same way if you already had 310 million?

If I had any sense I would.

All the warm fuzzy comparisons to Musial in the world don't do jack shit for Pujols family/descendants nor any other interests (such as charities) he might have.

This is not an insubstantial amount of money we're talking about here.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Clearly some people just like to say things and retreat when questioned whether what they say is true.

I'm not retreating, just get tired of the know-it-all message board gurus around here sometimes. God fucking forbid anyone has a different opinion or *gasp* might know something more than someone else.

Just because Jeter didn't get 28 other contract offers doesn't mean he isn't loyal to the Yankees.

Unless one you is, inded, Derek Jeter, I fail to see how you can say he isn't loyal to the Yankees. I stand by my stance that he is loyal because nothing has happened to disprove it.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I really don't think you know what loyalty means.

you win