Big 10 Expansion Thread -Big Ten ready for a playoff .. finally?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

A 16-team tournament really doesn't need Louisiana-Lafayette in it.

Why should winning the SEC and the Sun Belt earn you the same thing? I never understood that. Basketball has automatic bids for conference winners, but they only really matter for the bottom conferences, because anybody with a pulse is getting in anyway. Louisiana-Lafayette would get in over Top-10 teams in that scenario. Why should they? Why is it so important to reward that conference (and Conference USA, and 1 or 2 others depending on the year) above all others relative to how good they actually are?

Until they get demoted to FCS, those conferences are all in the same NCAA division. There could be something done like in FCS, where not all conferences get an automatic bid, but the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. If it were, then likely the runs of George Mason, VCU, Butler, and Florida Gulf Coast don't happen.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Until they get demoted to FCS, those conferences are all in the same NCAA division. There could be something done like in FCS, where not all conferences get an automatic bid, but the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. If it were, then likely the runs of George Mason, VCU, Butler, and Florida Gulf Coast don't happen.

They're in the same division, and they should be eligible to be in the playoffs. But they shouldn't get to go automatically simply through winning a conference that wasn't created by some central entity for the purpose of awarding its champion, but which only exists as a throwaway for all of these smaller programs that have nowhere else to go. Is a disproportionate award that they'd get only because they collectively suck.

The same argument does not apply to the basketball tournament because 68 teams make it. Florida Gulf Coast didn't get to play in the tournament ahead of the #10 ranked team in the country that finished 2nd in the Big Ten. That's be roughly the equivalent of giving Louisiana-Lafayette a disproportional prize for being the best of a bunch of irrelevant small schools.

[Logan]

Agree with molson there.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Until they get demoted to FCS, those conferences are all in the same NCAA division. There could be something done like in FCS, where not all conferences get an automatic bid, but the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. If it were, then likely the runs of George Mason, VCU, Butler, and Florida Gulf Coast don't happen.

I think a 10 or 12 team playoff is a likely way to resolve this. You could have two or four play-in games to get to the round of eight amongst the smaller schools and the 'wild card' teams. That rewards the conference champs while still giving the smaller schools a shot. Or just jump to 16 and play all four rounds with seeding.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

They're in the same division, and they should be eligible to be in the playoffs. But they shouldn't get to go automatically simply through winning a conference that wasn't created by some central entity for the purpose of awarding its champion, but which only exists as a throwaway for all of these smaller programs that have nowhere else to go. Is a disproportionate award that they'd get only because they collectively suck.

The same argument does not apply to the basketball tournament because 68 teams make it. Florida Gulf Coast didn't get to play in the tournament ahead of the #10 ranked team in the country that finished 2nd in the Big Ten. That's be roughly the equivalent of giving Louisiana-Lafayette a disproportional prize for being the best of a bunch of irrelevant small schools.

In the basketball tournament, as you said, 68 of 351 teams make the tourney, 19.3% Of those 68 slots, 31 are assigned to teams that win their conference tournament, only the Ivy League awards their bid to the regular season champion.

In a hypothetical 16 team football tournament, 16 of 125 teams would make it, 12.8%. 11 of the 16 spots would go to conference champions. So even if you took away the autobids for say the WAC and Sun Belt, that would leave 9, and the ratios wouldn't be that far off from the much bigger basketball tournament. Because of the smaller size, the first left out team would have a stronger case in football than basketball. Going to 24 teams (like the current FCS playoffs) would set the percentage to 19.2%, just about the same as basketball, but would also be the end of the independent bowls. Which may not necessarily be a bad thing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

In the basketball tournament, as you said, 68 of 351 teams make the tourney, 19.3% Of those 68 slots, 31 are assigned to teams that win their conference tournament, only the Ivy League awards their bid to the regular season champion.

In a hypothetical 16 team football tournament, 16 of 125 teams would make it, 12.8%. 11 of the 16 spots would go to conference champions. So even if you took away the autobids for say the WAC and Sun Belt, that would leave 9, and the ratios wouldn't be that far off from the much bigger basketball tournament. Because of the smaller size, the first left out team would have a stronger case in football than basketball. Going to 24 teams (like the current FCS playoffs) would set the percentage to 19.2%, just about the same as basketball, but would also be the end of the independent bowls. Which may not necessarily be a bad thing.

But why is it so important to reward conference champions over teams from other conferences that are clearly better? It's not like the pros where the conferences and divisions are basically equal over time, taking turns having strong and weak years. In college, these conferences are just inherently weaker. Why should they get an easier path to the playoffs than anyone else? Just because they're weaker? Louisiana-Lafayette is ranked #81 right now in the Sagarin rankings (I don't know of another ranking that ranks all 125 teams), and in this proposed system, they'd get in over Michigan St. or Arizona St.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by molson

But why is it so important to reward conference champions over teams from other conferences that are clearly better? It's not like the pros where the conferences and divisions are basically equal over time, taking turns having strong and weak years. In college, these conferences are just inherently weaker. Why should they get an easier path to the playoffs than anyone else? Just because they're weaker? Louisiana-Lafayette is ranked #81 right now in the Sagarin rankings (I don't know of another ranking that ranks all 125 teams), and in this proposed system, they'd get in over Michigan St. or Arizona St.

Did you miss the part where I said that the Sun Belt and WAC might not necessarily get auto-bids? It isn't an insurmountable issue. And again, the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. There is usually a power conference team that doesn't get an invite because a below-average team makes a run in their (weaker) conference tourney. It is just that due to the amount of bids in the basketball tourney, the argument for inclusion/exclusion weakens.

[molson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Did you miss the part where I said that the Sun Belt and WAC might not necessarily get auto-bids? It isn't an insurmountable issue. And again, the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. There is usually a power conference team that doesn't get an invite because a below-average team makes a run in their (weaker) conference tourney. It is just that due to the amount of bids in the basketball tourney, the argument for inclusion/exclusion weakens.

A compromise that I've heard pitched is that a conference champion could get in if they're in the top 20 of a BCS-style rankings. That would definitely be better, and it would actually be the very rare small conference team who was actually good enough to pull that off. But I feel like those who want every conference champion to be in want to the path to be a lot easier than that. But I've never heard an explanation as to why those smaller conferences should be given easier paths.

The amount of bids in the basketball tourney makes ALL the difference. Florida Gulf Coast might make it over a 20-13, 6th Place in its conference Tennessee team. But not a top-10 team.

[BillJasper]

It's pretty simple: you want to ensure a seat at the table then win your conference. If you're second in your conference, then cross your fingers and hope you get a berth.

But I'm actually pretty happy with a four team playoff.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It's pretty simple: you want to ensure a seat at the table then win your conference. If you're second in your conference, then cross your fingers and hope you get a berth.

And also, get into as weak and as small a conference as possible, because winning Conference USA with an 8-4 record would be better than finishing 11-1 and second in the Big 10.

But all of that just explains the mechanics of it, not why it'd actually be preferable to disproportionately award conference champions. Is there just not enough emphasis on Marshall/Rice this weekend and the conference USA race? I guess it would be weird and random to have the winner of that game in a 16-team tournament instead of an obviously better team, is this just about novelty?

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by molson

But why is it so important to reward conference champions over teams from other conferences that are clearly better? It's not like the pros where the conferences and divisions are basically equal over time, taking turns having strong and weak years. In college, these conferences are just inherently weaker. Why should they get an easier path to the playoffs than anyone else? Just because they're weaker? Louisiana-Lafayette is ranked #81 right now in the Sagarin rankings (I don't know of another ranking that ranks all 125 teams), and in this proposed system, they'd get in over Michigan St. or Arizona St.

Because it's not the pros. It's college.

But for what it's worth, I agree with your basic premise and at the start of your post I didn't at all. But I agree with the general crux of it.

[Young Drachma]

Alternatively, you could just have no autobids, just select everyone who is eligible and be done with it. NIU runs the table in the MAC and they get in, but no way that a 4-team loser gets invited just for winning their terrible league.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by cartman

Until they get demoted to FCS, those conferences are all in the same NCAA division. There could be something done like in FCS, where not all conferences get an automatic bid, but the same argument could be applied to the basketball tournament. If it were, then likely the runs of George Mason, VCU, Butler, and Florida Gulf Coast don't happen.

I get your point regarding football, but FGCU is the only one of your examples that applies in basketball. George Mason and VCU were at-larges. Butler did win its conference tournament, but received a 5 and an 8 seed its two years - no question they would have been picked as an at-large (and they had been picked as an at-large the year before with a worse record). They were actually ranked in the top 10 in the final pre-tournament poll before their first run to the title game.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Gordon Gee states in clip that Missouri and Kansas were lined up for Big Ten acceptance pending the Texas move to the Pac-12. Said that MU went to SEC due to concerns with ongoing stability. Fits perfectly into the rumored offer to Mizzou that we heard so much about.

It's a great listen if you haven't heard it. It's like getting someone drunk. He just keeps talking without any filter at all.

Listen to Ohio State’s Gordon Gee’s controversial remarks in their*entirety | Campus Union - SI.com

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Gordon Gee states in clip that Missouri and Kansas were lined up for Big Ten acceptance pending the Texas move to the Pac-12.

Because thought about adding Missouri and Kansas at the time. There was not a great deal of enthusiasm about that.

So...

[Logan]

LOL.

[sovereignstar v2]

That link is from last May.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Matthean

So...

Obviously you need to Lern 2 Read. I honestly don't understand how you get anything other than "Missouri and Kansas were lined up for Big Ten acceptance," from, "I would see potentially Missouri and Kansas. By the way it goes without saying this all has to be speculation that remains right here," and, "Because thought about adding Missouri and Kansas at the time."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Obviously you need to Lern 2 Read. I honestly don't understand how you get anything other than "Missouri and Kansas were lined up for Big Ten acceptance," from, "I would see potentially Missouri and Kansas. By the way it goes without saying this all has to be speculation that remains right here," and, "Because thought about adding Missouri and Kansas at the time."

Did you listen to the entire audio file? Methinks no.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Big changes coming in regards to the decision-making process for the NCAA. The power conferences are going to carry a lot more power.

Endorsed NCAA restructuring plan would give 5 power leagues 'more autonomy,' a greater voice to student-athletes | MLive.com

[Kodos]

Big Ten should say ‘no’ to any games with Notre Dame « Big Ten Network

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

For the first time since Mizzou left the Big 12, the Border War will be renewed. Mizzou will play Kansas tomorrow in Columbia in a softball regional game. Overflow sell-out crowd expected.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Big Ten should say ‘no’ to any games with Notre Dame « Big Ten Network

Why play Notre Dame? Because your fans enjoy playing (and beating) them. Same reason Nebraska-Oklahoma and Kansas/Missouri should be played.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

It’s time for the Missouri Tigers and Kansas Jayhawks to make up, renew Border War rivalry - KansasCity.com

[britrock88]

Uhm, plate's over there, ma'am.

[Kodos]

Pac-12, Big Ten commissioners talk autonomy plans - Yahoo Sports

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/slive-e...17--ncaaf.html

[Logan]

Meant to post this about a week or so ago. The BTN has signed deals to get onto the basic tier of Cablevision and Time Warner in the NYC area, and a deal with Comcast is expected to be finalized soon. There's going to be a ton of money flowing in from the Rutgers addition. Glad we're good for something.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Burwell: Revolt is brewing in NCAA : Sports

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting comments from West Virginia AD Oliver Luck about things that were going on behind the scenes when Texas, OU, OSU, and Texas Tech were courting the Pac-12.

Big 12 ADs say no discussions on expansion - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting comments from Mike Alden concerning the top 5 conferences. A bit surprising to see something like this come from him as he's usually very reserved about making these types of comments......

Alden sees 'Power Five' autonomy on the horizon : Sports

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Meant to post this about a week or so ago. The BTN has signed deals to get onto the basic tier of Cablevision and Time Warner in the NYC area, and a deal with Comcast is expected to be finalized soon. There's going to be a ton of money flowing in from the Rutgers addition. Glad we're good for something.

Comcast deal is done, also basic tier. Apparently all the deals with the major providers in Maryland are done as well. No wars this time around.

[Logan]

B1G day!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sounds like Comcast deal is done for the SEC Network. Time Warner also reportedly close.

[Young Drachma]

Conference Realignment Becomes Official Today - Mid-Major Madness

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting stuff going on over at Orangebloods.com. It's pay site information, but poster gave the names of two executives from ESPN who have said that the Longhorn Network is failing and ESPN is looking to get out. Will be interesting to see if ESPN pulls the plug and what the cost would be. The buyout information was the only part of the LHN agreement that was not publicly released.

If ESPN pulls the plug, could definitely see a new round of realignment begin.

Here's the thread link if you have insider access.......

Discussions about LHN within ESPN

[digamma]

Why do you have an Orange Bloods Membership?

[Kodos]

He's a big fan. Used to be known as HornsManiac.

[NobodyHere]

I thought Hornsmaniac was just a legend used to scare children.

[BishopMVP]

As much as we enjoy mocking MBBF's obsession, I'm not really that surprised by this. Yes, live inventory is a huge advantage for advertisers (and thus TV executives), but they're greatly overstating demand if they think you can base an entire network around softball games, track and field events, historical look-backs, and a couple minor football games each year (especially for a sport like football where people can easily just go to a bar if there are 1-2 PPV-exclusive games they care about.)

Now, if the Longhorn Network could have gotten NCAA approval to show HS football (and basketball/baseball) games in addition to their other programming, I do think there is a viable market in Texas for that.

[molson]

Well it's on an insider board, so the odds of it being correct to start out with are 10%, and the fact that MBBF has endorsed the news actually drops it to negative probability.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I thought Hornsmaniac was just a legend used to scare children.

SI

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by molson

Well it's on an insider board, so the odds of it being correct to start out with are 10%, and the fact that MBBF has endorsed the news actually drops it to negative probability.

Can we square root that value to get its true value.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by digamma

Why do you have an Orange Bloods Membership?

I don't.

[digamma]

So why are you posting links to a pay message board (where you aren't a member) as some sort of HOT TAEK?

At least go Chris Broussard and break the story according to your "sources."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

DirecTV signs with SEC Network; Comcast announcement expected soon.

DirecTV Expects to Offer SEC Network Soon | FOX Sports

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

DirecTV signs with SEC Network; Comcast announcement expected soon.

DirecTV Expects to Offer SEC Network Soon | FOX Sports

Phew. I was really in a pickle with choosing between the Sunday Ticket Bengals or the Tigers, especially come basketball season where I anticipate a lot of their games will be on the SEC network. Plus I was going to have to convince my wife to catch up on her shows! Let's hope this report is accurate and negotiations don't fall apart.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by digamma

Why do you have an Orange Bloods Membership?

Just say, "Thanks, Kyle".

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Article on Fox discussing conference network payouts.

Every SEC School Will Make More TV Money Than Texas, Notre Dame | FOX Sports

[digamma]

Just let us know when good ol' Clay has cleaned up after himself.

[digamma]

So, I've actually read this article now and it seems like Clay is missing the point that Texas gets a Big XII distribution in addition to their LHN dollars.

Not that I care all that much (I don't have a horse in the aTm vs. Texas fight), but he's just proving to be pretty bad at being an SEC shill.

edit: I see the first commenter made that point too.