NFL Week 1 Discussion Thread - Revis signs, HBO rejoices

[DaddyTorgo]

It's on one drive for the season than Favre is like #50. I'd take a dead guy over him at that point.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Didn't we realize 2-3 years ago you couldn't argue with Lathum regarding Eli? In my mind, Eli has actually improved to a legitimate top 12 (but decidedly not top 5) QB the past 2+ seasons. According to Lathum, Eli peaked as a QB in 2007 because he won a Super Bowl. IIRC, he even was arguing that Eli was better than Brees last year until Brees won the Super Bowl.

Outside of this topic (and Brandon Jacobs) I respect the guy opinion's, but he's a blatant Giants homer who overrates a SB win wayyyy too much, and he'll admit it most of the time. That's as much as you'll get from him - he's never going to change his view on Eli no matter what evidence you provide to the contrary.

This is pretty close to accurate, but in my defense I am talking about a guy who has been to the playoffs 4 of 5 years as a starter and it would of been 5 of 5 had the defense not staged a mutiny last year. He won a title and was a superbowl MVP, is well over .500 as a career starter. If he plays at this level for another 7-10 years he will top 45,000 passing yards and 250 touchdowns. He showed great improvement as a playoff QB from 05-07 and in the regular season the past 3 years his QB rating has gone from 73 to 93.

Lets not act like I am trying to defend David Garrard or Jason Cambell, a lot of the points I make are valid, reasonable arguments.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

It's on one drive for the season than Favre is like #50. I'd take a dead guy over him at that point.

I realize everyone remembers how many times Favre has crushed his teams chances in the playoffs with interceptions. He is going to take chances and many times he looks like an idiot for doing it.

However I have seen him work enough magic against the Vikings to know what is capable of. Id still take him in a final drive over everyone except Brady, Manning, and Brees. Ive seen other great QBs fail as well. Its not as if the other 5 on that list have been 100 percent successful.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I realize everyone remembers how many times Favre has crushed his teams chances in the playoffs with interceptions. He is going to take chances and many times he looks like an idiot for doing it.

However I have seen him work enough magic against the Vikings to know what is capable of. Id still take him in a final drive over everyone except Brady, Manning, and Brees. Ive seen other great QBs fail as well. Its not as if the other 5 on that list have been 100 percent successful.

for example this beauty by Brady...

[molson]

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

Eli Manning does.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I fully admit I don't watch a ton of Chargers games, but what I have seen of him he tends to act like a child at times. Perfect example was last night he has a problem with his center, they get a delay of game and he throws the ball to the ground and kicks it like a petulant child. that wasn't the first time I have seen him do stuff like that.

I will also say he is a tremendous talent.

He was pissed that a center (and actually one of the better ones in the league, which makes it worse) couldn't snap the ball before the play clock expired, from my count, for the 3rd time that game. Like I said before, he gets frustrated. I've seen him get frustrated and basically throw his hands up in the air as if he is saying, 'what do I have to do?'. He wasn't hanging his head, jumping up and down or pouting or anything like that. What you saw was the result of a 3rd delay of game because the center did not snap the ball and to top it off, it was against a divisional rival and they were losing. So yes, I think frustrations would be running pretty high there. I'm pretty sure he was just as tough on himself after the game for 1: Not running the ball into the end zone to tie it up. 2: Over throwing a touchdown pass in the back of the end zone that would have tied it up and 3: Not hitting the receiver that was slipping and falling, to tie the game up. Don't confuse his competitiveness with acting childish.

Yes, he is very talented, easily top 5 in the league.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Hahaha. Does he get a bad rap? Maybe. Is it because of some East Coast bias or the city he plays in? Absolutely not. It has to do with playing for a team that constantly talked smack vs. the Patriots and never backed it up on the field, that looks like a petulant child when things aren't going his way (Peyton Manning was also criticized for this before he won a SB) and that got fined for taunting shitty teams like the Raiders.

Interesting the smack talking didn't start until the Patriots did their little dance on the Chargers helmet and even then, the smack talking wasn't really even smack talking, but, the Boston press certainly wrote it up to sound like it was. There was LT chirping about the coach, which was bad in my opinion and he should have just kept quiet about that. However, I never remember Rivers saying anything that could be considered smack about any team, let alone the Patriots. I think it's amazing that people confuse frustration with being a child. I've seen just about every quarterback in the league get frustrated and none of them have acted like a child.

As for the Raiders thing, the only one that I can remember is near the end of a game and he spiked a ball into a Raider that had just tried to take his knees out and then bent down and pointed at him and said something to him. But, it's the Raiders, so no harm no foul. If I had the money, I would have paid that fine.

[DataKing]

Wrong thread.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

for example this beauty by Brady...

I couldn't find an appropriate "last-minute drive" play for Peyton vs. the Patriots since he threw 4 picks in a 24-14 loss and 0 td's in a 20-3 loss the other two times they met in the playoffs. Is this good enough?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

He was pissed that a center (and actually one of the better ones in the league, which makes it worse) couldn't snap the ball before the play clock expired, from my count, for the 3rd time that game. Like I said before, he gets frustrated. I've seen him get frustrated and basically throw his hands up in the air as if he is saying, 'what do I have to do?'. He wasn't hanging his head, jumping up and down or pouting or anything like that. What you saw was the result of a 3rd delay of game because the center did not snap the ball and to top it off, it was against a divisional rival and they were losing. So yes, I think frustrations would be running pretty high there. I'm pretty sure he was just as tough on himself after the game for 1: Not running the ball into the end zone to tie it up. 2: Over throwing a touchdown pass in the back of the end zone that would have tied it up and 3: Not hitting the receiver that was slipping and falling, to tie the game up. Don't confuse his competitiveness with acting childish.

Yes, he is very talented, easily top 5 in the league.



Interesting the smack talking didn't start until the Patriots did their little dance on the Chargers helmet and even then, the smack talking wasn't really even smack talking, but, the Boston press certainly wrote it up to sound like it was. There was LT chirping about the coach, which was bad in my opinion and he should have just kept quiet about that. However, I never remember Rivers saying anything that could be considered smack about any team, let alone the Patriots. I think it's amazing that people confuse frustration with being a child. I've seen just about every quarterback in the league get frustrated and none of them have acted like a child.

As for the Raiders thing, the only one that I can remember is near the end of a game and he spiked a ball into a Raider that had just tried to take his knees out and then bent down and pointed at him and said something to him. But, it's the Raiders, so no harm no foul. If I had the money, I would have paid that fine.

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Eli and Big Ben I would consider in the very good but not great class.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Eli and Big Ben I would consider in the very good but not great class.

Not much of a basketball fan? I believe people acknowledge that Jordan's competitiveness led to him being an ass/douche in certain eyes. It depends on if you like him or not. I was like that with Kobe. I hated hated hated him. But now with the whole LeBron crap, I've come to respect Kobe even though people might still think he's a douche.

I'd put Big Ben above Eli for sure.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

for example this beauty by Brady...

cute - but that wasn't a bad pass as much as it was Faulk just absolutely dropping the ball. literally.

[Passacaglia]

Who thought it would be a good idea for anyone else to be in the locker room, anyway?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I'm glad you are bringing this up. I dont understand the hate for Rivers either. He shows a personality that he cares and because of it people dont like him. I dont understand. Michael Jordan did the same things and people say he is the greatest of all time. Once Brady and Manning decide they have dominated this league long enough Rivers and Rodgers are getting the torch passed their way.

Exactly, it's that desire and care to win that is being exposed. Jordan was a beast, but, he also won championships and that seems to be the only thing that matters to people. How somebody acts on the field, isn't always directly proportional to their stats. There will definitely be a power shift when those 2 retire and it would be kind of cool to see a Rivers/Rodgers rivalry especially if they meet a couple of times in the SB.

[TroyF]

In 2006, Romo had the famous gaffe on the FG attempt. Why the Cowboys had their starting QB be a holder after he's working his ass off the rest of the game was idiotic to begin with.

In 2007, Eli beat Romo and the Cowboys. Of course, the Giants defense beat the living hell out of Farve and Brady the following two games. 2008 was the Eagles disaster in December and in 2009 they beat Philly and lost at Minny.

I'm not saying Romo was amazing in any of those games, but I don't think he was the sole cause for the losses either. He's only 30, not 38. I wouldn't mind it if he were the QB of the Broncos.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Exactly, it's that desire and care to win that is being exposed. Jordan was a beast, but, he also won championships and that seems to be the only thing that matters to people. How somebody acts on the field, isn't always directly proportional to their stats. There will definitely be a power shift when those 2 retire and it would be kind of cool to see a Rivers/Rodgers rivalry especially if they meet a couple of times in the SB.

Sorry, I still think he's a douche. Taunting the Raiders. Seriously? Not my loss because I wouldn't be cheering for him anyway. I respect his game, I hate his "competitiveness" (I put that in quotes because I don't mind competitors, I hate jack asses)

[jbergey22]

I think all you can hope for in the NFL is to have one of the top 20 or so quarterbacks that wont lose games for you. You get to the Matt Moore's, Jason Campbells, Trent Edwards, and Jake Delhomme's of the NFL and you pretty much stand no chance of sneaking in the playoffs.

Despite the hype the Jets are going to struggle getting to the playoffs this year unless Sanchez can really improve.

It really shows how difficult that position is when 32 NFL teams cant even put out a functional starting QB and one of the most talented teams in the NFL have to depend on a decision from a 40 year old every summer to decide their fate.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Nice to see the Pats fans were on here burying the Bengals season.

I'm not trying to say they looked good despite the loss, or even that I thought it was fine, BUT I did have that game chalked up as a loss. Plus, you add to that that the Bengals had several slow starts last year, so I was not surprised that they came out flat and the Pats looked great. You would just think that the Bengals would realize that if you come out flat against a team of the Pats caliber, that they will step on your throat and break your neck, which is what they did.

Nice game by the Pats, but the Bengals are not done, Palmer is not through, and TO and CO are not about to blow-up. The Bengals lost to a better team on the road.

Whoopty-doo. The Pats did their job, let's have a ticker-tape parade.

If Moss doesnt get paid soon they may not be celebrating too many more wins this year When he doesnt get his way things can get ugly in a hurry.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If Moss doesnt get paid soon they may not be celebrating too many more wins this year When he doesnt get his way things can get ugly in a hurry.

I can't imagine anyone who has actually followed the Moss non-story, or even heard anything he has said outside a 5 second ESPN clip, agrees with this. He hasn't said anything all that bad or surprising. And through camp and game one he has looked as good as he has since 2007.

He's just crappy at dealing with the media, he's no Brady, it's why he boycotts them. Wish he kept it up .

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I can't imagine anyone who has actually followed the Moss non-story, or even heard anything he has said outside a 5 second ESPN clip, agrees with this. He hasn't said anything all that bad or surprising. And through camp and game one he has looked as good as he has since 2007.

He's not upset yet. He played for the Vikings for 7 seasons most of them which were great. Once he starts feeling disrespected you wont get the same Moss that you are used to.

The first sign of this was the post game press conference followed by the interview on ESPN today. I've seen him go down this road twice previously. When he starts venting frustrating to the press(which he cant stand) it means things arent great in Randy land.

He has already set the table for what may happen in the future if he doesnt get what he wants.

[jeff061]

He's playing for a super bowl caliber team where the responsibility doesn't rest solely on his shoulders(huge with him). And he respects Brady and Belichick. It's different.

And he's older now, that helps to a certain extent.

As for the interview on ESPN, all he talked about was how much he loved NE and his teamates, want to stay, had to blow off some steam and it's done with.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by jeff061

He's playing for a super bowl caliber team where the responsibility doesn't rest solely on his shoulders(huge with him). And he respects Brady and Belichick. It's different.

And he's older now, that helps to a certain extent.

As for the interview on ESPN, all he talked about was how much he loved NE and his teamates, want to stay, had to blow off some steam and it's done with.

It's not done with. I hope New England pays him so he go out like a winner rather than end his career like TO has(floating from team to team) as Ive always liked Moss and think he is the best WR to ever play the game.

If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.

Pats have no reason not to give him an extension.

I do agree that he respects Brady.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It's not done with. I hope New England pays him so he go out like a winner rather than end his career like TO has(floating from team to team) as Ive always liked Moss and think he is the best WR to ever play the game.

If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.

Pats have no reason not to give him an extension.

I'm sorry, but NE won't end any differently than any place else. He wants to get PAID. He thinks he deserves to get PAID. And if the Patriots don't reward him, he will shut down. Always has, always will.

Just beat the tar out of the Jets next week and I don't care. For one week, I'm a huge NE fan.

[jeff061]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hebzTyTZ4o

@:50. Hate to roll that out, cause I thought it was a lame PR stunt. Not a sign of a guy focused on nothing but the check.

I don't think he's getting paid by the Pats either way. But if he shuts it down he won't get paid by anyone else. If he plays well someone(foolish) will dump another huge pay day in his lap. End of story. He isn't dumb. And I completely buy into what he says about wanting to play and win with the Pats.

If he could play through a year with Cassel at QB, he can keep it going in a contract year with Brady(who appears to be sharp as ever) at the helm.

[jbergey22]

Seems kind of strange that they took away his title of captain if things were as they seem

These things eat away at him you know. Up until this point they had done everything they could to make him happy.

No money+removal of captain title=disrespected Randy Moss=Trouble

I hope you are right and I am wrong.

[jeff061]

Having followed him and what he's said closely, I'd put money on it. The only way he starts phoning it in is if the Pats just start tanking. If that happened, yeah he'd be a disaster.

I think one of his Oakland coaches said he's a great player, just easily daunted. Completely agree with that.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Sorry, I still think he's a douche. Taunting the Raiders. Seriously? Not my loss because I wouldn't be cheering for him anyway. I respect his game, I hate his "competitiveness" (I put that in quotes because I don't mind competitors, I hate jack asses)

Ok, now I think I remember the play...The Raider was still coming after Rivers after the play had been blown dead or something like that, he throws the ball towards him or spikes it, Rivers lost his mouth piece, bent down to pick it up and said something to him? It seems like the perception is that Rivers was unprovoked and that he just decided to go off on the guy, which wasn't the case.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm sorry, but NE won't end any differently than any place else. He wants to get PAID. He thinks he deserves to get PAID. And if the Patriots don't reward him, he will shut down. Always has, always will.

I seem to recall him taking a pay cut to go from a losing situation to the Patriots, but I actually agree with jbergey (and I guess galaril) in one sense.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If he hasnt gotten paid by week 8 and the Pats arent a Super Bowl contender he will mail it in at that point.

I just disagree that he will mail it in on the field as long as we are contending. And I don't even think you need to believe he's "matured with age" or "respects Brady/Belichick too much" - this whole reputation of Randy only caring about Randy getting paid came from a season where Minnesota fell apart (and still made the playoffs + won a game) and two seasons where Oakland was a combined 6-26. I really do believe he wants to win, and I see no reason he will stop producing on the field as long as we are winning.

[Lathum]

Clinton Portis should never be allowed to speak.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Carrying 2 RBs and 3 FBs is going to bite the Packers in the ass.

Kuhn can play short-yardage and Lumpken looked like crap in the preseason. They signed Nance from Atlanta and I don't see much of a difference between him and Lumpken (the 3rd back had they kept 3).

This will be Jackson's job (he was a 2nd round pick out of Nebraska) and if he doesn't do well, they can look at trading for Lynch/Barber/.. or bringing back the old bones of Ahman Green. I don't see the presence of Kregg Lumpken changing the reality of this situation. We'd just have him as the "JAG" backup instead the current JAG backup Nance.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Not much of a basketball fan? I believe people acknowledge that Jordan's competitiveness led to him being an ass/douche in certain eyes. It depends on if you like him or not. I was like that with Kobe. I hated hated hated him. But now with the whole LeBron crap, I've come to respect Kobe even though people might still think he's a douche.

I'd put Big Ben above Eli for sure.

I might be misremembering, but I don't remember Jordan showing up his teammates on the court that much. Most of his asshole stories are behind the scenes in the locker room and at practice.

I do think there is a difference in doing it in the locker room and doing it on the field in front of millions. Normally I wouldn't think it's a big deal, but part of the reason the Chargers were struggling was because Rivers was playing like shit.

[TroyF]

Guys. . .

The Moss complaint of the contract is the first step. It's a step he's taken multiple times. Lets say he torches Revis on Sunday. 10 catches, 140 yards, 2 TD. Something like that. Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

He's going to take it as a slap in the face. The guy is moody and petulant. I don't buy that he'll continue to go balls to the wall if he feels he's being disrespected. Brady? He'd have been professional and worked his ass off all year. Owens? As big of a douche as he is, he always played hard, despite dropping a ton of passes. Moss? He'll quit. He's done it time and time again. He'll break your heart.

All of that said. . . hell, I hope you are right. I hope Randy plays hard. He's a fun guy to watch even if he is a dick. I just don't buy that he's changed anything.

[Kodos]

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

Kind of ironic to discuss Rivers' child-like behavior in an conversation about Eli considering how both got to their respective teams.

Originally Posted by molson

Just so I'm keeping up with the latest trends - is it now accepted that "clutch" exists in football but not baseball? What about horse racing? Who determines these things?

Oh good, it's been at least a year since we had this discussion on the board.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing another dedicated thread about it. I know from last time there was a lot of statistical analysis showing not a lot of support for the idea of "clutch". I wonder, though, how many people who have actually played competitive sports (not necessarily professionally) believe in "clutch". I know I do, despite what the statistics might say.

Originally Posted by TroyF

Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

I guess I've missed this story, so can someone fill me in? Is the situation that the Patriots haven't even started contract discussions with Moss, or that they did, offered their usual low-ball for ageing players, and he's reacting against that?

[molson]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Guys. . .

The Moss complaint of the contract is the first step. It's a step he's taken multiple times. Lets say he torches Revis on Sunday. 10 catches, 140 yards, 2 TD. Something like that. Then the Patriots have a record of something like 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 weeks. Yet the Patriots still haven't offered him a new deal or are even negotiating with him for one.

He's going to take it as a slap in the face. The guy is moody and petulant. I don't buy that he'll continue to go balls to the wall if he feels he's being disrespected. Brady? He'd have been professional and worked his ass off all year. Owens? As big of a douche as he is, he always played hard, despite dropping a ton of passes. Moss? He'll quit. He's done it time and time again. He'll break your heart.

All of that said. . . hell, I hope you are right. I hope Randy plays hard. He's a fun guy to watch even if he is a dick. I just don't buy that he's changed anything.

The only thing that might keep in line is that it's a contract year. I think he's a smarter guy than say, Manny Ramirez. They crying this week after a week 1 win was calculated.

I don't think he's in the Pats plans after this year, and I think it's the perfect time to part ways.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing another dedicated thread about it. I know from last time there was a lot of statistical analysis showing not a lot of support for the idea of "clutch". I wonder, though, how many people who have actually played competitive sports (not necessarily professionally) believe in "clutch". I know I do, despite what the statistics might say.

How about outside of sports - I'm sure if there was some numerical rating that could evaluate my own job performance, it would be better during the "important" periods of my job.

The idea that there's zero difference in baseball performance relative to game situation is the dumbest idea to come out of the sabremetrics era. I'm glad it's not an accepted idea in football yet.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

4 of the top 10 QB FF seasons in NFL history were with Randy Moss as a WR. Plus the two highest scoring teams in NFL history were with Moss as the main WR target. I think he is perfectly capable of sniffing Rice's jock strap.

Cunningham '98
Culpepper '00
Culpepper '04
Brady '07

You may not like him but its hard to argue with facts. Cunningham was close to 40 at the time and Culpepper proved that he was worthless without Randy Moss. Brady went from a great QB to a record setting QB.

[Kodos]

NFL Career Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

NFL Career Receiving Touchdowns Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He has A LOT of ground to make up before he has a claim. He basically needs to add Steve Smith's career onto his own so far to catch Rice in TDs and receiving. He's 32 already. He'll never make it.

And that's not even figuring in Super Bowl wins.

[MikeVic]

Moss is great, but you can't call him the greatest of all time. He's known to slack, that takes him out of the running regardless of stats.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by molson

How about outside of sports - I'm sure if there was some numerical rating that could evaluate my own job performance, it would be better during the "important" periods of my job.

The idea that there's zero difference in baseball performance relative to game situation is the dumbest idea to come out of the sabremetrics era. I'm glad it's not an accepted idea in football yet.

"Clutch" performances exist in any way you want to define them - late inning/close score, game-winning drives, etc. What has been demonstrated in baseball via stats is that there is no unique or special talent/ability to be consistently "clutch," however you define it. That's been pretty thoroughly debunked. There is no rhyme or reason to the "clutch" stats generated by 99.9995% of players, where one or two years, a guy will outperform his stats in clutch situtations and then under-perform for another year or two. Nearly every player in MLB history is that way - up and down in clutch situations over their career.

What I think confuses the situation for people is two things: (1) we tend to remember successful clutch performances, and when someone is repeatedly in those situations and has those opportunities, we tend to remember the successful ones as if they are the only ones; and (2) we're talking about out-performing or under-performing your "normal" stats, so the greater a player is in general, the more successful they are going to be in clutch situations. If Derek Jeter wasn't a great player, he wouldn't have as many successful clutch performances (or opportunities, getting to the playoffs every year but 1 in his career). That doesn't make him clutch, it means he performs in the clutch about as he does normally - which is a very high level. that's what makes him appear clutch compared to Joe Schmoe's clutch performance with a career .650 OPS. Jeter's going to perform well in those situations because he is a great player to begin with.

All of this is not to say that pressure has no bearing on how someone performs when the game is on the line - it's just that, at least in baseball, it's been proven this isn't a talent or ability that can be consistently demonstrated over a career.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Kodos

NFL Career Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

NFL Career Receiving Touchdowns Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

He has A LOT of ground to make up before he has a claim. He basically needs to add Steve Smith's career onto his own so far to catch Rice in TDs and receiving. He's 32 already. He'll never make it.

Are we talking about who played longer or who was better?

I dont think you can say Pete Rose was a better hitter than Ty Cobb or that Curtis Martin was a better RB than Jim Brown.

Besides you are the one that said Moss couldnt sniff Rice's jock strap. I think that was more of an exaggeration than me saying Moss is the best WR of all time.

[Shkspr]

You know what, though? Your argument is shit.


Your argument fails because "fantasy football points" is a stupid and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of ANOTHER PLAYER is an even more pointless and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using "fantasy football points" is an astoundingly arbitrary way to judge greatness across eras.

But most of all your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of another player to judge greatness across eras and then turning around and rejecting the use of actual statistics compiled in actual games by the actual players involved to compare them is the height of idiocy.

Randy Moss can't sniff Jerry Rice's jockstrap if for no other reason than Randy Moss's defenders have to resort to using Daunte Culpepper's fantasy football point score to make them seem comparable.

[Kodos]

Here are their top 10 seasons in scoring TDs.

Randy Moss (30) 23 2007 NWE
Randy Moss (21) 17 1998 MIN
Randy Moss (26) 17 2003 MIN
Randy Moss (23) 15 2000 MIN
Randy Moss (32) 13 2009 NWE
Randy Moss (27) 13 2004 MIN
Randy Moss (27) 13 2004 MIN
Randy Moss (31) 11 2008 NWE
Randy Moss (22) 11 1999 MIN
Randy Moss (24) 10 2001 MIN


Jerry Rice+ (25) 22 1987 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (27) 17 1989 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (24) 15 1986 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (33) 15 1995 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (31) 15 1993 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (29) 14 1991 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (32) 13 1994 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (28) 13 1990 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 10 1992 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 9 1988 SFO

They look pretty similar. But can Moss keep it up at the end of his career? Part of greatness is maintaining productivity over a long period. I don't think Moss is dedicated or disciplined enough to catch Rice.

And, yeah, the fantasy football argument was dumb. Did they even have fantasy football at the beginning of Jerry Rice's career?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

You know what, though? Your argument is shit.


Your argument fails because "fantasy football points" is a stupid and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of ANOTHER PLAYER is an even more pointless and arbitrary way to judge greatness.
Your argument fails because using "fantasy football points" is an astoundingly arbitrary way to judge greatness across eras.

But most of all your argument fails because using the "fantasy football points" of another player to judge greatness across eras and then turning around and rejecting the use of actual statistics compiled in actual games by the actual players involved to compare them is the height of idiocy.

Randy Moss can't sniff Jerry Rice's jockstrap if for no other reason than Randy Moss's defenders have to resort to using Daunte Culpepper's fantasy football point score to make them seem comparable.

How about the two highest scoring teams in NFL history
1998 Minnesota Vikings
2007 New England Patriots

having Moss as a key part of their offense.

Since it is arbitrary that QB's have great years with Moss as a WR. Is it also arbitrary that some of the highest scoring teams in NFL history have had him on the team as well?

You must hate any type of individual stats because they are all arbitrary.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Whoever said Moss is the best WR in NFL history... wow. He isn't fit to sniff Jerry Rice's jock strap.

[Passacaglia]

All I can say is, if Eli Manning and Randy Moss ever end up on the same team...look out.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

How about the two highest scoring teams in NFL history
1998 Minnesota Vikings
2007 New England Patriots

having Moss as a key part of their offense.

Since it is arbitrary that QB's have great years with Moss as a WR. Is it also arbitrary that some of the highest scoring teams in NFL history have had him on the team as well?

Much of that has to do with the rest of the team though. Its not a one man band, and why was the greatness not sustained?

EDIT: Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce are the best WR duo in league history because they played on the only offense to score more than 500 points three straight years!

[Kodos]

NFL Single-Season Receiving Yards Leaders | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Here are their seasons that rank in the top 250 performances in NFL history for single-season receiving yards:

Jerry Rice+ (33) 1,848 1995 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (24) 1,570 1986 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (31) 1,503 1993 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (28) 1,502 1990 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (32) 1,499 1994 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (27) 1,483 1989 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (26) 1,306 1988 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (34) 1,254 1996 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (40) 1,211 2002 OAK
Jerry Rice+ (29) 1,206 1991 SFO
Jerry Rice+ (30) 1,201 1992 SFO

Randy Moss (26) 1,632 2003 MIN
Randy Moss (30) 1,493 2007 NWE
Randy Moss (23) 1,437 2000 MIN
Randy Moss (22) 1,413 1999 MIN
Randy Moss (25) 1,347 2002 MIN
Randy Moss (21) 1,313 1998 MIN
Randy Moss (24) 1,233 2001 MIN

Jerry's highs are higher (including the best season in NFL history), and he has a lot more of them.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Much of that has to do with the rest of the team though. Its not a one man band, and why was the greatness not sustained?

EDIT: Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce are the best WR duo in league history because they played on the only offense to score more than 500 points three straight years!

Kind of like Jerry Rice having 2 of the best QBs in NFL history as his QBs?

Greatness wasnt sustained because Daunte Culpepper sucks(he hasnt had 1 10td season since Moss left his side). Patriots 07 and Patriots 09 were both top 100 scoring teams in NFL history when Brady was healthy.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Greatness wasnt sustained because Daunte Culpepper sucks(he hasnt had 1 10td season since Moss left his side).

Yes. Blowing his knee out probably had nothing to do with Culpepper's collapse after Randy left.