COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It feels like they think they'll be some martyr and people will come to their rescue. But it's more likely they'll just be unemployed and struggle for years.

Hmm. I wonder if they have seen the occasional successful GoFundMe and think that they will get their story out and bring in millions in donations.

[albionmoonlight]

dola

And I am once again wrong about how people were going to react. I thought that a lot of people had dug their heels in as anti-vax and needed an out to get the vax while saving face.

An employer mandate is the perfect face-saving out. "I still believe everything I said. I'm just here so I don't get fired."

But man, these people really are serious. Like PM said, they are willing to lose really good jobs over this.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

dola

And I am once again wrong about how people were going to react. I thought that a lot of people had dug their heels in as anti-vax and needed an out to get the vax while saving face.

An employer mandate is the perfect face-saving out. "I still believe everything I said. I'm just here so I don't get fired."

But man, these people really are serious. Like PM said, they are willing to lose really good jobs over this.

There are companies advertising open roles with the lack of vaccine mandates as a benefit.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0039659212800/

[JPhillips]

NY state has a vaccine mandate for healthcare workers and I guarantee some nurses are going to shitcan their career over this. They've already been mandated for a host of vaccines and regular health checks, but they won't do this.

[Ksyrup]

I'll be interested in finding out who is leaving next week. I'm aware of about 8 or 9 people who are not yet vaxxed. You can kinda tell who it is because they are required to wear masks in the office. As far as I can tell, it's mainly our facilities staff (building manager and his crew, a couple of security I think). I do not believe we have any executives who are in this group.

So, aside from cleaning crew types, if we lose our facilities manager (a long-term employee), that's fairly significant given that he manages several commercial buildings and farms for the company.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

dola

And I am once again wrong about how people were going to react. I thought that a lot of people had dug their heels in as anti-vax and needed an out to get the vax while saving face.

An employer mandate is the perfect face-saving out. "I still believe everything I said. I'm just here so I don't get fired."

But man, these people really are serious. Like PM said, they are willing to lose really good jobs over this.

When you start to view it through the prism of it being a cult, it makes more sense.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

NY state has a vaccine mandate for healthcare workers and I guarantee some nurses are going to shitcan their career over this. They've already been mandated for a host of vaccines and regular health checks, but they won't do this.

Several have already been fired and arrested for using fake vaccine cards.

[thesloppy]

The collective crankdom of nurses is an interesting substory to come out of all this.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

The collective crankdom of nurses is an interesting substory to come out of all this.

Right? Who knew.

[Lathum]

I know several nurses and from my experiences they aren't sending their best (some are amazing, but a lot more are crazy people)

[thesloppy]

I wonder how much of that is driven by the fact that they end up doing the bulk of the work that gets publicly credited to doctors & specialists, and they've kind of convinced themselves that they are the real medical authorities as a result.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I know several nurses and from my experiences they aren't sending their best (some are amazing, but a lot more are crazy people)

I don't know how true it is, but I get the impression that nurse is a redemptive career path for a lot of marginalized/fringe folks.

[Flasch186]

Nurse willing to lose career over unlawfully signing mask opt-outs for school kids in Florida. The well is deep.

I-TEAM: Nurse investigated for allegedly writing mask opt-out notes at public park

I'm sure she's a damn lib cuz stats and all...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I know several nurses and from my experiences they aren't sending their best (some are amazing, but a lot more are crazy people)

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I don't know how true it is, but I get the impression that nurse is a redemptive career path for a lot of marginalized/fringe folks.

I think the latter is too complicated. It's one of the few jobs with a near guaranteed employment rate and good pay (even if the conditions often suck). People have headed in bulk to health care as other industries have collapsed so it looks kindof like IT did right before the bubble burst (still here to some degree) where you have a bunch of people chasing dollars instead of being interested/good at the job.

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I wonder how much of that is driven by the fact that they end up doing the bulk of the work that gets publicly credited to doctors & specialists, and they've kind of convinced themselves that they are the real medical authorities as a result.

To be fair, I've known a number of nurses who do know more than a lot of doctors they work for.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Nurse willing to lose career over unlawfully signing mask opt-outs for school kids in Florida. The well is deep.

I-TEAM: Nurse investigated for allegedly writing mask opt-out notes at public park

I'm sure she's a damn lib cuz stats and all...

I think there's also a chiropractor doing this too.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

these people really are serious. Like PM said, they are willing to lose really good jobs over this.

Going back to earlier discussions, this is the biggest part of the problem. Some of these people really believe this stuff. If enough of them are willing to lose jobs ... the numbers of them who actually are doing that I don't have a good handle on ... it will have big repercussions in the economy even for the rest of the country.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by henry296

There are companies advertising open roles with the lack of vaccine mandates as a benefit.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0039659212800/

I guess they will always have a high turnover of staff over the next few years…

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

To be fair, I've known a number of nurses who do know more than a lot of doctors they work for.

SI

That’s what I found with the only serious medical care I’ve ever needed help with (sports injury)

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by henry296

There are companies advertising open roles with the lack of vaccine mandates as a benefit.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0039659212800/

Why would a company have a mask mandate if the employees are working remotely and traveling around with their family? Especially if the employer does not have to provide healthcare benefits.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why would a company have a mask mandate if the employees are working remotely and traveling around with their family? Especially if the employer does not have to provide healthcare benefits.

I don't disagree, I guess it was the tone of the post that got to me.

[miami_fan]

I would like to see the Venn diagram of the people who would apply for those jobs and the people who were desperate to get back into the office as opposed to working remotely a few months ago.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

...

I just can't believe anyone would willingly give up employment over this. And yeah, I get that a lot of people are moving jobs in the Great Post-Covid Employment Migration, but this is a great company to work for with a track record for having employees stick around upwards of 70 years (we have a woman who's pushing late 80s who started in 1952).

Just crazy.

My company just announced vaccination as a condition of employment. Two very competent peers have very principled anti vax positions. One is simply anti vaccine, has been for her self and family for years. Her kids got vaxed only when her and her husband made the decision to move the kids to public school because it was required. She relented to the mandate, and got her first shot this week. The other is pretty much anti chemicals anti medication in her body. She won't take an aspirin, and she is applying the same consideration to the vaccine. She appears to be holding her ground, and is looking for alternatives.

Neither of the above examples are in the least bit conservative politically, so the opposition to a vaccine mandate isn't coming from the quarters that I expected. Another bit of friction has been from people have have reported been vaccinated, but are reluctant to provide "proof" to the company.

[GrantDawg]

There are some non-conservative anti-vac people. The Right-wingers are just the loudest group.

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[Edward64]

I'm good with this. Another consideration for the unvaccinated.

But I've not heard much in MSM from unvaccinated people that had to pay for their own healthcare deductible. You'd think there would be a lot of stories here. Wish this was more widely publicized.

The Cost Of Being Unvaccinated Just Went Up — Most Insurers Are Passing Costs Back To Patients As Covid Hospitalizations Soar

With highly effective coronavirus vaccines available and hospital admissions soaring, many Covid-19 patients are facing bigger bills as most insurance companies have ended waivers on out-of-pocket costs that they introduced earlier in the pandemic, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, a cost that will be primarily borne by the unvaccinated people more likely to require hospital treatment.
:
Earlier in the pandemic, the vast majority of private health insurers voluntarily waived out-of-pocket costs for Covid-19 treatment, meaning some 88% of people with insurance coverage would have paid nothing if hospitalized.

With no federal mandate requiring insurers to waive these costs, few regulations requiring them to do so at the state level and the wide availability of effective vaccines, the majority have now passed these costs back to patients, according to research by the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Of the two largest health plans in each state and Washington, D.C., nearly three-quarters (72%) are now passing out-of-pocket costs—including copays and payments towards deductibles—for Covid-19 treatment back to patients, KFF found.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There are some non-conservative anti-vac people. The Right-wingers are just the loudest group.

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There's always been a "granola"-y sort that's associated with the Pacific Northwest (but not exclusively there) that's anti-vax, as well.

SI

[QuikSand]

I don't have full access to the article/data, but... whoa

The Economist journalists updated their a model of the true death toll of the pandemic, corrected for underreporting.

They come to the conclusion that 15.2 million have died, more than 3-times the official toll of 4.6m.

This map shows the distribution of the death rate. pic.twitter.com/8ZMdm7LmzY

— Max Roser (@MaxCRoser) September 4, 2021

[JPhillips]

Yeah, that was a shocker. When we're able to put a global total on the pandemic, it's going to be tens of millions.

[Brian Swartz]

I'm actually surprised it's that low. I'd expect it to go up as more studies come in over the decades to come.

[PilotMan]

Here's another thread with about 70 comments on it, from Fargo, North Dakota, just look at the extent of the belief system in play. Blows my mind. It really does. It's amazing the extent that Fox et al have on intelligent thought.

https://www.facebook.com/46959023092...8289462398093/

[NobodyHere]

That was Ralph Wiggum for Ivermectin

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Here's another thread with about 70 comments on it, from Fargo, North Dakota, just look at the extent of the belief system in play. Blows my mind. It really does. It's amazing the extent that Fox et al have on intelligent thought.

https://www.facebook.com/46959023092...8289462398093/

As always... don't read the comments. You lose faith in humanity pretty easily that way.

[albionmoonlight]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/b...ons-delta.html

Story about more evidence showing that breakthrough infections are still very rare.

I think that we are all making too much of breakthrough infections because even people who approach COVID very differently have their own reasons to want to pass on those stories.

If you are very worried about COVID, then you are worried about breakthrough infections, and you pass on stories about them b/c they scare you.

If you aren't worried about COVID and/or don't want a vax, then you pass on stories about breakthrough infections because you want to show that the vax doesn't really help.

But, really, the story is that the vax really works and if you have one you should worry less and if you don't you should worry more.

[GrantDawg]

If it bleeds, it leads.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

If it bleeds, it leads.

If that's true, then why isn't my anus president?

[GrantDawg]

Well, I voted for it.

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[Kodos]

You know, this could all be over within a month/month-and-a-half, if everybody just got their damn shots.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Kodos

You know, this could all be over within a month/month-and-a-half, if everybody just got their damn shots.

Yup.

Here's what I think the best way out in considering political realities

(1) Approve for < 12
(2) Make vax required for air travel
(3) Make vax required for school (including college) attendance (I'm willing to excuse age groups for whom only the EUA is available until their age gets full approval.)
(4) Make vax required for military and all other public employment (including cops, firemen, public school teachers, EMTs, etc.)
(5) Encourage as many private businesses as possible to mandate vax for employment.

Then let the chips fall where they may. I think that that gets us pretty close to where we need to be. People can still choose not to take it, but they will have to feel some consequences for their decision.

FWIW, things I am not in favor of are

(1) Letting insurance charge you more if you are unvaxxed (that's just opening the door to letting them bring back pre-existing condition bans)

(2) Tying public assistance money to vaccination status (you should get the money if you need it. It isn't up to Big Brother to decide if you are "worthy poor" or "undeserving poor.")

[spleen1015]

My company announced weekly drawings the next 12 weeks for those who are vaxxed.

$5k
$1k
3x $500
10x $250

[Flasch186]

weird how the same thread lines can be drawn even though some want to argue statistics and grasp at straws but it's clear as day beyond the gaslighting that the political reality for the greater whole (sans outliers) is that the extreme Right Trumpians are the ones that are anti-vax and anti-mask:

With Trump in the rearview mirror, Proud Boys offer muscle at rallies against vaccine mandates, masks

[Edward64]

Read an article that said covid is worse this Labor Day vs last year. Looked at the graph in worldometers and sure enough - in infections and deaths.

Also, yesterday's deaths were 1,700+ vs 4-6 weeks ago when it was less than 1,000 and it was 400-500 at a low this year (that I remember).

I would like to know how many of the 1,700 are < 18. Those I have regret for. Assume the vast majority of 1,700 are eligible (medical conditions notwithstanding) and chose not to.

For our vaccinated family, it doesn't feel as much of a crisis or as "desperate" as it did last year. Partly because of no daily Trump-stuff but also because many of these deaths are somewhat self-inflicted.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Yup.

Here's what I think the best way out in considering political realities

(1) Approve for < 12
(2) Make vax required for air travel
(3) Make vax required for school (including college) attendance (I'm willing to excuse age groups for whom only the EUA is available until their age gets full approval.)
(4) Make vax required for military and all other public employment (including cops, firemen, public school teachers, EMTs, etc.)
(5) Encourage as many private businesses as possible to mandate vax for employment.

Then let the chips fall where they may. I think that that gets us pretty close to where we need to be. People can still choose not to take it, but they will have to feel some consequences for their decision.

I agree with this. I'd also add

(6) Have business clearly state they are mandating masks, vaccinations and/or not. Thinking about restaurants, grocery stores, ubers, sporting events and like. Force companies to take a stand
(7) Need some sort of "passport" so these can be enforced

In general, non-government businesses need to get more involved.

FWIW, things I am not in favor of are

(1) Letting insurance charge you more if you are unvaxxed (that's just opening the door to letting them bring back pre-existing condition bans)

(2) Tying public assistance money to vaccination status (you should get the money if you need it. It isn't up to Big Brother to decide if you are "worthy poor" or "undeserving poor.")

For (1), I don't see much of a difference with health insurance charging smokers more. But I do see the slippery slope.

For (2), I agree with this.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't think that they should charge smokers more either. But that seems to be baked into the cake at this point.

[miked]

Why shouldn't they charge smokers more? It is a voluntary decision that has tremendous negative effects on your health and leads to more illness (more $$). If I have been convicted of DUI, I expect my insurance (if I can get it) to be monumentally higher.

[Ksyrup]

Call The General!

[albionmoonlight]

Since United Airlines announced that vaccines would be required for employees last month, more than half of its unvaccinated employees have gotten their shots. Employees who do not get vaccinated by Sept. 27 risk termination or unpaid leave. https://t.co/N3XYEszyXm

— The Associated Press (@AP) September 8, 2021

A lot of vax opposition is soft. Some people will always refuse. But a lot of folks aren't going to lose their jobs over this.

The private sector is what can really get us over the hump, I think.

[Ksyrup]

We have 4 people in our company who have yet to get vaxxed and tomorrow is the deadline. The most high profile is our facilities manager, and they are apparently meeting again with him today. From what I've heard, his excuse is that he "doesn't believe in doctors," has seen a doctor maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 20 years and is healthy (despite having a beachball stomach and being a smoker - he's healthy!).

This is a guy who is in love with Corvettes. He's part of a Corvette club, does all of these drives, etc. If that thing so much as sputtered once, he'd take a day off work to have a mechanic look at it. But, he "doesn't believe in doctors."

Another guy who repeatedly railed against the vaccine on the basis of his religion got vaxxed. Apparently he found the loophole is his religious beliefs that allowed him to get the shot.

[molson]

A very popular (and unvaccinated) high school teacher and coach in the area died, and according to some involved in the subsequent social media news article bickering, that is still "not the time to talk about vaccines".

It seemed like he was a really well-known in a community that has more than their share of anti-vaxxers. But no one will admit to this changing any of their minds. Instead, it seems like the evolution in their delusion is blaming the hospitals. Which is ironic because several hospitals in the area have entered "crisis" mode, which apparently means that people who who have had heart attacks or were involved in car accidents are being turned away for unvaccinated COVID patients.

Which is starting to make me lose some sympathy for the plight of the hospitals, when, I'm reading about more and more doctors taking a stand and refusing to treat unvaccinated people. I suppose that may not be an option at a hospital level because of laws requiring treatment of anyone who shows up, but, I think we need to re-examine the roles of hospitals in the stage of pandemics when a vaccine is freely and easily available.

[NobodyHere]

Well my conservative mother finally got the vaccine. She was motivated by the fact that her boss caught the covids.

[Kodos]

No way people experiencing medical emergencies should be turned away in favor of unvaccinated Covid patients. The unvaccinated should be last in line. They don't trust doctors anyway...

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

A very popular (and unvaccinated) high school teacher and coach in the area died, and according to some involved in the subsequent social media news article bickering, that is still "not the time to talk about vaccines".

It seemed like he was a really well-known in a community that has more than their share of anti-vaxxers. But no one will admit to this changing any of their minds. Instead, it seems like the evolution in their delusion is blaming the hospitals. Which is ironic because several hospitals in the area have entered "crisis" mode, which apparently means that people who who have had heart attacks or were involved in car accidents are being turned away for unvaccinated COVID patients.

Which is starting to make me lose some sympathy for the plight of the hospitals, when, I'm reading about more and more doctors taking a stand and refusing to treat unvaccinated people. I suppose that may not be an option at a hospital level because of laws requiring treatment of anyone who shows up, but, I think we need to re-examine the roles of hospitals in the stage of pandemics when a vaccine is freely and easily available.

Same people who probably say it isn't the right time to talk gun control after a bunch of kids get shot.

I honestly do not know what I would do if a loved one died for lack of care because of unvaxed covid patients.

I called it a few pages back that these people would start blaming the hospitals.