Yet another school shooting.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, it's a slingshot?

(That's a serious question, btw. The documentary I watched was just printing the lower/receiver on an AR-15 because you can't expect a plastic/polymer to withstand the 20k pounds of pressure in that first fraction of a second generated by modern ammunition. If it's spring driven, then it's not really a firearm. Doesn't mean it's not lethal...but, hell, you can add powerful springs to Nerf guns without 3D printing.)

The AR versions are made with metal and metal parts, but they are made with 3d printed parts as well. The metal parts can be fabricated in another machine that the company sells.

According to this article. I was referring to "The Liberator"

dubbed it “the Liberator” in an homage to the cheap, one-shot pistols designed to be air-dropped by the Allies over France during its Nazi occupation in World War II. Unlike the original, steel Liberator, though, Wilson’s weapon is almost entirely plastic: Fifteen of its 16 pieces have been created inside an $8,000 second-hand Stratasys Dimension SST 3D printer, a machine that lays down threads of melted polymer that add up to precisely-shaped solid objects just as easily as a traditional printer lays ink on a page. The only non-printed piece is a common hardware store nail used as its firing pin.

[stevew]

All it takes is one shot to the window at altitude and you've got a mass casualty event, right?

[PilotMan]

Potentially. It's more complicated than that, but hell, I'd rather not have to worry about it.

[Drake]

Ah, got it. I'd heard about single-shot printed guns, but hadn't seen one.

I'd still tend to go back to the slingshot analogy, though. In theory, a quality pocket rocket is also (potentially) lethal, but also impractical for large volume assaults due to the difficulties of reloading, etc.

On the other hand, one thing we can assume from the capitalist mindset is that quality will continue to improve as people innovate, so a single-shot weapon today will likely be a fully functional semi-automatic pistol with impressive endurance capabilities as better, more durable 3D printing inks are developed.

But, like CU said, we can do that now in a great many garage metal fabricating shops. There are literally millions of guys who could fabricate firearms with very little instruction and modest capital investment.

So, what are we *really* worried about here? Like with most firearms, 99% of the people who own them won't ever do anything illegal with them. The people who will illegally print a 3D weapon and use it for something nefarious would probably do the same thing with I firearm obtained through a different vector...which isn't the standard sort of "criminals are going to criminal, so what're you supposed to do" hand-tossing.

I just don't know that 3D printing is really where the energy needs to be expended in gun control policy.

I guess I keep going back to the bigger picture of the social cost of being afraid of or needing to regulate the transmission of data because of what some people might do with it. Then again, I'm old enough to remember how excited I was the first time I got to thumb through a bootleg copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook (and subsequently realized that most of the stuff in there was bullshit). I'm also old enough to remember the same thrill the first time I downloaded an illegal MP3 file. And music industry protestations to the contrary, I did not turn into some sort of criminal reprobate who murdered and raped starving musicians just for kicks.

[Drake]

Also, re: metal detectors, this Google search:

can glocks pass through metal detectors - Google Search

I'm also old enough to remember when part of the "cool" factor of Glocks back in the early '90s was that they were made of so much plastic, they wouldn't set off metal detectors of that vintage.

I think we've crossed this bridge before.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Drake

I just don't know that 3D printing is really where the energy needs to be expended in gun control policy.

On further thought, this makes sense. Then again the ironic thing is that this has actually got a chance to be blocked/outlawed because the 'gun industry' is unlikely to go balls to the wall for something that potentially might actually hurt their bottom line. And i kinda think that quite a big portion of ardent NRA supporters/followers as well as key figures would be like "who the fuck needs this gimmicky nonsense ?" and not be to bothered if it fails.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Drake

Also, re: metal detectors, this Google search:

can glocks pass through metal detectors - Google Search

I'm also old enough to remember when part of the "cool" factor of Glocks back in the early '90s was that they were made of so much plastic, they wouldn't set off metal detectors of that vintage.

I think we've crossed this bridge before.

You're putting entirely too much faith in the TSA. Unofficially of course.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by whomario

On further thought, this makes sense. Then again the ironic thing is that this has actually got a chance to be blocked/outlawed because the 'gun industry' is unlikely to go balls to the wall for something that potentially might actually hurt their bottom line. And i kinda think that quite a big portion of ardent NRA supporters/followers as well as key figures would be like "who the fuck needs this gimmicky nonsense ?" and not be to bothered if it fails.

This is 100% true, I suspect. For guys who like guns, it feels gimmicky (even more gimmicky than bump stocks)...and if you're like me, you spend enough time thinking about the dangers inherent in firearms that the idea of just a thin wad of self-printed polymer being the only thing that stands between you blowing your fingers off and not isn't particularly attractive.

Say what you may about the gun manufacturers, but they don't fuck around with safety (at least with respect to the engineering and quality control). There's a reason you can still buy century old firearms that work just as well today as the day they were made.

My wife went to the dentist today and got fitted with a temporary crown while we wait for the "real" one to arrive. She broke it ten minutes into our drive home. This happens, apparently. The resin (or whatever) doesn't set right. Gets a crack in it. You're never going to convince me that 3D printing (or any manufacturing process, really) isn't going to have similar issues. I don't think I'd 3D print a chainsaw, either.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You're putting entirely too much faith in the TSA. Unofficially of course.

Good thing for me that I'm terrified of flying and only do it when I absolutely have to.

Though, as this week proves, I should probably be just as nervous about walking into gas stations.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The AR versions are made with metal and metal parts, but they are made with 3d printed parts as well. The metal parts can be fabricated in another machine that the company sells.

According to this article. I was referring to "The Liberator"

The "liberator" is a single shot weapon that fires a traditional bullet.
Thats what the nail is for to strike the primer and ignite the charge. Even if the gun doesnt set off the metal detector the bullet should.

[Drake]

So, I broached this conversation with people at work (profile: typically moderate dems; IT professionals; university employees) because I was curious about what other people "like me" might think and I have to admit that I was a bit shocked by their take on it. They fully support the idea that whether or not a constitutional argument can be made for it, the ability to transmit data that could potentially be used to harm "innocent people" should be controlled by the government.

Not just this particular case, but any sort of "how to" information. For example, how to make fertilizer, ok. How to make a truckload of fertilizer...nope.

The even made reference to the fact that I recently started making knives in my garage/workshop solely through watching Forged in Fire episodes and Youtube videos. The found it alarming that I could learn to do that on my own just from looking stuff up...because it's dangerous, and in the wrong hands, could be used to hurt innocent people.

I didn't find their arguments particularly compelling (i.e., willing to accept more limitations on free speech in return for safety), but it turns out that I'm definitely in the minority on this one.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Even if the gun doesnt set off the metal detector the bullet should.

Would depend on the sensitivity. They'd have to really turn it up to catch a single bullet. And that would set it off for every belt buckle or wristwatch. I know I've been through the metal detector at games with change in my pocket.

Doable but would be a bigger pain. I'm sure some airports have their sensitivity cranked up more than others.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Would depend on the sensitivity........I'm sure some airports have their sensitivity cranked up more than others.

Very, very true.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Drake

So, I broached this conversation with people at work (profile: typically moderate dems; IT professionals; university employees) because I was curious about what other people "like me" might think and I have to admit that I was a bit shocked by their take on it. They fully support the idea that whether or not a constitutional argument can be made for it, the ability to transmit data that could potentially be used to harm "innocent people" should be controlled by the government.

Not just this particular case, but any sort of "how to" information. For example, how to make fertilizer, ok. How to make a truckload of fertilizer...nope.

The even made reference to the fact that I recently started making knives in my garage/workshop solely through watching Forged in Fire episodes and Youtube videos. The found it alarming that I could learn to do that on my own just from looking stuff up...because it's dangerous, and in the wrong hands, could be used to hurt innocent people.

I didn't find their arguments particularly compelling (i.e., willing to accept more limitations on free speech in return for safety), but it turns out that I'm definitely in the minority on this one.

Regardless about the rest of all this, forged in fire is freaking awesome.

[Edward64]

FWIW.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/30/us/pe...rnd/index.html

Under a court settlement, people aren't supposed to be able to legally download plans for 3-D printed guns until Wednesday.

But because designs for the guns have already been posted online, by Sunday more than 1,000 people had already downloaded plans to print an AR-15-style semiautomatic assault rifle, according to the office of Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro.

Shapiro has been fighting to keep 3-D printed guns out of Pennsylvania. At an emergency hearing held over the phone Sunday, the Attorney General's Office asked a judge for a restraining order that would block a website run by gun-rights group Defense Distributed from being accessible in Pennsylvania. The group's site allows people to download plans to make 3-D guns.

[digamma]

Everytown released a candidate look-up tool that allows you to search by zip code to see if your candidates have been named "Gun Sense Candidates." It's not an endorsement in a specific race, just a distinction that the candidate's position on gun laws are in line with what Everytown views as sensible gun policy. After years and years of NRA ratings (recently removed from the NRA's website), this is the first searchable tool I'm aware of that provides a counterweight.

Find Gun Sense Candidates in Your Area

[Thomkal]

Not a school, but a bar in Jaccksonville where a Madden tournament was being held:


https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/26/us/ja...ing/index.html

[Thomkal]

they were playing on the bar's Twitch stream and you can hear the shooting and screams.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

they were playing on the bar's Twitch stream and you can hear the shooting and screams.

And you can see what appears to be a red laser dot appear on the chest of one of the players moments before the shots begin. Ugh.

[Thomkal]

yeah saw that-going to be to sleep tonight with that image and sound in my mind now.

[Ben E Lou]

Suspect dead per Jax Sheriff's office.

[Flasch186]

Me and the fam are safe if you were worried at all. Weren't downtown.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Me and the fam are safe if you were worried at all. Weren't downtown.

Glad to hear it

[Thomkal]

Seeing more and more tweets that it was a gamer who lost then started opening fire before shooting himself

[stevew]

What is wrong with people?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Unconfirmed ID is a 24 y/o gamer from Baltimore, who was "the Buffalo Bills 2017 Madden champ" (or something like that).

[RainMaker]

So this sounds like someone who took video games a bit too serious?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So this sounds like someone who took video games a bit too serious?

Well, when you start giving prizes that include a seat in a $25k tournament (which in turn can lead to a seat at an even more lucrative tournament) ... I don't know if we're not talking about more than simply "video games" at that point.

No, I'm not remotely defending what the guy did.

I'm simply wondering if the narrative about "over a VIDEO GAME ?!?!?" (not your words but a direct quote I've seen elsewhere) would be different if he'd done this at, say, a similar poker event or whathaveyou.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, when you start giving prizes that include a seat in a $25k tournament (which in turn can lead to a seat at an even more lucrative tournament) ... I don't know if we're not talking about more than simply "video games" at that point.

No, I'm not remotely defending what the guy did.

I'm simply wondering if the narrative about "over a VIDEO GAME ?!?!?" (not your words but a direct quote I've seen elsewhere) would be different if he'd done this at, say, a similar poker event or whathaveyou.

I agree. It's like poker where you can have wild financial swings. And to some you're dealing with younger adults who are just not accustomed to that. Surprised we don't see this stuff take place more at casinos or events like this.

This is apparently the guy.

Congrats to David Katz, the Madden 17 Bills Championship winner!

Thanks for following along, Bills fans. https://t.co/YHJHzlFElc pic.twitter.com/incdEhLxkT

— Buffalo Bills (@buffalobills) February 27, 2017

[JPhillips]

A couple of weeks ago I had a discussion with an older couple about video game tournaments. I tried to explain the money involved and said there's very little difference in my mind between competitive video games and sports. Some percentage of the public just hasn't caught up to how video game proficiency can equal big money.

[Scoobz0202]

Dota 2's yearly tournament, The International, just finished last night. The winning team won a little over $11 million.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Dota 2's yearly tournament, The International, just finished last night. The winning team won a little over $11 million.

And that doesn't count the annual salaries that are becoming more common.

[RainMaker]

I was blown away when I found out how much money some of those Twitch streamers make.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I was blown away when I found out how much money some of those Twitch streamers make.

I had pretty much that reaction when I saw how much the YouTuber McSkillet (the one in the suicide crash in SD last week that killed two other people) made largely from making CS:Go skins apparently.

I mean, driving a custom built car that cost north of $250k from what I gather is ... pixel art?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So this sounds like someone who took video games a bit too serious?

Or maybe someone who doesn't take failure too well. I'm just conjecturing. I once knew a guy that literally pounded his head against a brick wall because he lost at a card game.

The thing is that it was the first or second time he tried that card game so any expectation of success was pretty unwarranted.

I don't know the motivations of the shooter but I'm going to assume that he was mentally ill.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

And you can see what appears to be a red laser dot appear on the chest of one of the players moments before the shots begin. Ugh.

Looks like that guy was one of the two dead.

[Butter]

I know this is maybe not an appropriate question, but....

Did he lose in a particularly frustrating way? Or did he have a gun in his car ready to go like, "if I don't win, i'm shooting up this place?" Online gamers generally speaking are prolific shit-talkers.

No I'm not trying to justify it, as people who de-value human life to this degree are mentally ill by definition. Dehumanization of the "other" is an epidemic being perpetuated by many right now. Consider it morbid curiosity.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Butter

I know this is maybe not an appropriate question, but....

Did he lose in a particularly frustrating way? Or did he have a gun in his car ready to go like, "if I don't win, i'm shooting up this place?" Online gamers generally speaking are prolific shit-talkers.

No I'm not trying to justify it, as people who de-value human life to this degree are mentally ill by definition. Dehumanization of the "other" is an epidemic being perpetuated by many right now. Consider it morbid curiosity.

Don't feel bad, you are not alone. I had the same questions when I first saw the news. A 2018 version of throwing the controller or shutting off the game.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree. It's like poker where you can have wild financial swings. And to some you're dealing with younger adults who are just not accustomed to that. Surprised we don't see this stuff take place more at casinos or events like this.

This is apparently the guy.

Congrats to David Katz, the Madden 17 Bills Championship winner!

Thanks for following along, Bills fans. https://t.co/YHJHzlFElc pic.twitter.com/incdEhLxkT

— Buffalo Bills (@buffalobills) February 27, 2017

The guy looks like an ultra-douche. What a sad situation.

[Ksyrup]

Yes he does.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I don't know the motivations of the shooter but I'm going to assume that he was mentally ill.

Another way to minimize the entire situation. I said it about the Vegas shooter, who was not mentally ill, who they can not figure out why, he did what he did. There was literally no exterior motivation. If there had been mental illness, it would have come out by now. Simply put, just because, we cannot rationalize why is gods name anyone would go to the length or do those acts, doesn't mean it's mental illness. It sweeps it under the bed, "ah well, if it hadn't been for that mental illness, of course, there's nothing we could do, because he was sick, so the rest of us, who are healthy, just have to shake our heads and wonder why he failed to get the help that he so badly needed."


It's clearly become a legitimate artifact of the 21st Century culture in the USA. It's a part of our society. The ease at which people can be murdered with guns in this country. It's part of a much bigger, deeper, philosophical discussion that nobody can have, because it's far too late to actually fix within any of our generations. Only people who are willing to put the work in, to try and fix it for the next 4-5 generations downline, will have any chance to reverse the societal impact of where we are now regarding guns and crime in America. Good luck on someone taking the reins on that one.

[Toddzilla]

By all means, lets keep saying this asshole's name and putting his picture in the news as much as possible and give this murderer all the attention and fame he deserves. Because nothing deters the next mass-murderer more than seeing how famous the last one got.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Only people who are willing to put the work in, to try and fix it for the next 4-5 generations downline, will have any chance to reverse the societal impact of where we are now regarding guns and crime in America. Good luck on someone taking the reins on that one.

The problem is young people try that, like the Parkland kids, and get completely shit on by the baby boomers and mouth breathers who have to have their toys regardless of how many kids die. Throw in a heavy dose of social media scare tactics and it becomes almost impossible.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The problem is young people try that, like the Parkland kids, and get completely shit on by the baby boomers and mouth breathers who have to have their toys regardless of how many kids die. Throw in a heavy dose of social media scare tactics and it becomes almost impossible.

Maybe it's just boomers who are the problem. Has there been a generation that has accomplished so little and asked for so much in return?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Another way to minimize the entire situation. I said it about the Vegas shooter, who was not mentally ill, who they can not figure out why, he did what he did. There was literally no exterior motivation. If there had been mental illness, it would have come out by now. Simply put, just because, we cannot rationalize why is gods name anyone would go to the length or do those acts, doesn't mean it's mental illness. It sweeps it under the bed, "ah well, if it hadn't been for that mental illness, of course, there's nothing we could do, because he was sick, so the rest of us, who are healthy, just have to shake our heads and wonder why he failed to get the help that he so badly needed."

Who's minimizing? I'm just stating my belief. Mentally healthy people do not go on murder/suicide rampages.

It's clearly become a legitimate artifact of the 21st Century culture in the USA. It's a part of our society. The ease at which people can be murdered with guns in this country. It's part of a much bigger, deeper, philosophical discussion that nobody can have, because it's far too late to actually fix within any of our generations. Only people who are willing to put the work in, to try and fix it for the next 4-5 generations downline, will have any chance to reverse the societal impact of where we are now regarding guns and crime in America. Good luck on someone taking the reins on that one.

You do know the crime rate in America has been on a downward trend for almost the last 40 years right?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Another way to minimize the entire situation. I said it about the Vegas shooter, who was not mentally ill, who they can not figure out why, he did what he did. There was literally no exterior motivation. If there had been mental illness, it would have come out by now. Simply put, just because, we cannot rationalize why is gods name anyone would go to the length or do those acts, doesn't mean it's mental illness. It sweeps it under the bed, "ah well, if it hadn't been for that mental illness, of course, there's nothing we could do, because he was sick, so the rest of us, who are healthy, just have to shake our heads and wonder why he failed to get the help that he so badly needed."


It's clearly become a legitimate artifact of the 21st Century culture in the USA. It's a part of our society. The ease at which people can be murdered with guns in this country. It's part of a much bigger, deeper, philosophical discussion that nobody can have, because it's far too late to actually fix within any of our generations. Only people who are willing to put the work in, to try and fix it for the next 4-5 generations downline, will have any chance to reverse the societal impact of where we are now regarding guns and crime in America. Good luck on someone taking the reins on that one.

So you decry that we might determine it to be mental illness and unfixable and move on, but then you suggest the real problem is so big, no one will undertake to solve it, so we move on?

Potato, potAto?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

By all means, lets keep saying this asshole's name and putting his picture in the news as much as possible and give this murderer all the attention and fame he deserves. Because nothing deters the next mass-murderer more than seeing how famous the last one got.

ever see Spike Lee's Summer of Sam?

That was part of the point of the movie how glorified killers become in our culture

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I had pretty much that reaction when I saw how much the YouTuber McSkillet (the one in the suicide crash in SD last week that killed two other people) made largely from making CS:Go skins apparently.

I mean, driving a custom built car that cost north of $250k from what I gather is ... pixel art?

My jaw dropped when I learned who Logan Paul was (when that suicide forest thing made the news) and the fact you can make like $15 million a year on YouTube being him.

It's like a whole other economy that exists that I never knew about.

Should add that one of those Paul brothers fought some rapped I've never heard of this weekend and made $10 million.

[Scoobz0202]

Not Logal Paul level, but Ninja makes at least $500K a MONTH streaming Fortnite.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So you decry that we might determine it to be mental illness and unfixable and move on, but then you suggest the real problem is so big, no one will undertake to solve it, so we move on?

Potato, potAto?

How exactly are you sure, that this situation makes it mental illness? I'm asking because it seems like Day 1 after every incident, that is always the case. By making the blanket statement, that it is, minimizes the actual discussion that should be made. Like, how do people get to this point. What is it that sets them off? It's not a black and white, well if it's not terrorists (or gangs), then it must be mental illness answer that it seems like people want to tag it with.

The point I'm making is by doing that, you're eliminating the other discussion about why. I clearly am NOT making the argument that we can't solve mental illness problems. I was not the one that said it was mental illness in the first place, nor am I saying that there's no hope to fix that. It's the same argument I used for Vegas. We have to look at the what happens when this stuff happens, and you can't call it mental illness or terrorism. What if it's just someone who wants to do it for the sake of doing it? What do you call it then? Just because we wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that we rationalize it as mental illness. That's the discussion that needs to be had.