Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

Sorry if my earlier post came off sarcastic. I think many of us are sensitive regarding this issue and I was grumpy at the time.

The main things that have really worked for:

1. Eating 6-7 times throughout the day instead of 3. This includes eating less at each meal (holidays withstanding), but overall more. With each meal, I make sure to have a protein source, but veggies and nuts and the like are all great to include as well.

2. Regular weight lifting. While I've increased the intensity of my workouts as I became stronger, even lifting a few times a week for 30 minutes is huge. It increases your resting metabolic rate. Also, I have a set of Ironmaster dumbells with the extra weight additions and a super bench with attachments and I can get a good workout on any part of my body. To start out even just doing a combo of pushups and squats with your body weight can help a lot.

3. I kind of mentioned it, but protein consumption. I am sure you don't need what I do, but just making sure I have consistent protein sources throughout the day helps me a lot.

4. low carb count in the evening. You can have some with dinner, but assuming you eat 6 and go to bed at 11 or so, very little or no carbs at all after your dinner.

5. Limit junk food. And if you do have some of these, eat them in the morning or early afternoon. Working in a school they always have junk food around, but try to avoid eating it and or have a little if its early in the day. I also dont keep any junk food at all in the house. It's important you get your calories from quality foods.

6. Drink plenty of water, and no soda, juice, etc... I have an occasional diet soda which I know isn't good for me, but predominantly drink water or the 10 calories version of vitamin water if I want something flavored.

I think we're all sensitive about this issue...yeah .

Cool. Yeah...I definitely don't eat 6x per day, or probably eat all that much protein. But one of my goals for the new year is to shift from doing more cardio to more of a mix of cardio+lifting, so I'm thinking ahead to how I'll have to adjust my diet.

Quality calories is definitely huge. I've basically cut all the bad food down a minimum - sure I'll have a cookie at lunch and some type of sweet lower-calorie dessert, but that's it. And I probably still have a bit too many carbs at dinner/snacking after dinner (although a couple handfuls of dry cheerios aren't going to kill me), but just trying to plan ahead for how I could/will need to change things up in the New Year.

No worries man!

[QuikSand]

One thing that the plat-based movement suggests is that our need for both protein and calcium is dramatically overstated. I don't claim personal expertise in this regard (and I know it's heretical to most people to make this argument) but there's a pretty substantial body of evidence suggesting that our common school-taught stress on protein for growth/health and calcium for bones/teeth may be misguided.

In any event, a lot of "experts" agree that getting 10% of your calories from protein is suitable, and that's a snap. I'm getting between 60-80 grams of protein a day without really stressing over it at all. Calcium is another divisive issue, but there's a ton of calcium in leafy green vegetables making that a pretty easy target as well if you're committed to pursuing a target amount in your diet.

[GoldenEagle]

It is pretty amazing to see the difference of opinions in this thread and on the topic as a whole. I think someone made a good point that it is very similar to religion. It just goes to show that no one really knows what is best for us.

I tired the paleo diet for a little bit and got results from it. I had increased energy levels, clearer skin, etc. The only problem is you spend a lot of time cooking the food and I was too lazy for it.

The paleo diet makes the argument that modern diseases such as obesity, heart disease, and autism did not show up until the agriculture revolution. I have not seen the documentary, but I am assuming it blames meat for heart disease, etc. I don't think anyone knows what is truly correct for our bodies.

The only thing both diets seem to agree on is processed foods. So I guess if your are looking at being healthier, that is the first thing that you should cut out.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Subby

I googled this and the very first article that came up was a news item from the Harvard Gazette.

Hormones in milk can be dangerous

Cows are milked up to 300 times per year and are often pregnant while being milked. The farther along into pregnancy a cow is, the higher its estrogen levels are, and this is passed along through the milk. We get 60-80% of our estrogen from dairy sources.

Pregnant cows produce up to 33x more estrogen than non-pregnant cows.

The takeaway is that - even if lungs is right and cows are not being pumped full of estrogen, they still produce enough in their own right to have some cause for concern.

The original claim that we pump our cows full of estrogen was probably mistaking estrogen for somatotropin supplementation. Completely different things, and the only link between somatotropin and estrogen is that supplemented cows will have slightly elevated levels of estradiol at the stage of estrous where estradiol increases (this takes place on a single day).

Just paging through the Endocrinology of Pregnancy and while I don't have any clear cut numbers, it states that estrogen levels in pregnant cattle are low through most of the pregnancy but near-term is where estrogen levels peak. Standard practice is to not milk cows in the last 60 days of pregnancy to allow the cows' mammary tissue to regenerate. I'll try to dig around for more concrete information from scientific sources. But from what I do know at this point, we do not harvest milk from cows at peak levels of estrogen production.

The article is also a bit misleading about milking of pregnant cows. While it is correct that we do milk lots of pregnant cows (it's not economical or healthy to the cow to feed her for 9 months while not milking), they really don't quantify the proportion of cows being milked while pregnant. Using my herd as an example, 36% (159 of 436) of my cows being milked are pregnant. This number usually ranges from the 35-50% in herds that don't calve seasonally. 13% of my herd is from 1-100 days pregnant, 15% are from 101-200 days pregnant and 9% are over 200 days and like I said earlier, we don't milk anything that is 60 or fewer days to calving.

And that's all without considering that peak production occurs from 100-150 days post calving when any pregnant cows are in the earliest stages of pregnancy. There is a 25 pound difference in daily production between my peak milk production/non-pregnant or early pregnancy cows (81 lbs/day) and cows that have been pregnant over 200 days (56 lbs/day).

So take what you will from my own information. I'm fairly typical, though seasonal calving herds like in New Zealand will be different as almost all milking cows are in the same stages of lactation and pregnancy in seasonal calving herds. I just think that the article posted blows things out of proportion and at worst is downright misleading considering that nobody milks cows straight through a pregnancy.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

One thing that the plat-based movement suggests is that our need for both protein and calcium is dramatically overstated.

If I don't eat protein, I get shaky fairly soon after eating. And nut-based sources of protein have me not feeling very well either later, not sure if it's a mild allergy or what (my daughter is allergic to cashews and pistachios, but not peanuts for some odd reason).

We're not supposed to eat fats (bad for your heart), carbs (bad for diabetes and weight), or now animal-based protein (causes cancer). Gluten is bad and has been linked to autism.

When scientists finally figure out what I'm allowed to eat, I'll eat a diet that helps keep my weight in line and helps me have energy through the day. I'lll conitnue following the golden rule: you need a little bit of everything, but not too much of anything.

[Autumn]

I like to look at diet through a fairly simple evolutionary lens. Clearly our bodies were designed for the diet that our ancestors long ago ate. The main difference between then and now is scarcity.

Those of us in modern America do not deal with scarcity. We have the appetite for sweet foods, fatty foods and meats that our ancestors developed, yet do not have the scarcity of those items to balance it. We do not have to find a fruit tree in season, or hunt an animal to satisfy those needs. +

So it seems natural to me that we are going to desire more fat, more sweets and more meat than we should eat. We live in an "unnatural" setting, and so are going to have to get used to the idea that we have to resist our natural urges and find ways to eat that replicate somewhat what our bodies were built for. It's difficult because our ancestors could want sweets all they want, it didn't mean they had them, but we have to build up mental skills to control our appetites. I think one thing a vegetarian diet has going for it is that it's much simpler to just decide you won't meat, for example, than to attempt to stick to artificial limits. I was a vegetarian for 14 years and had no problem with it, but now that I eat meat it's much harder to resist the urges and eat a reasonable amount.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

It is pretty amazing to see the difference of opinions in this thread and on the topic as a whole. I think someone made a good point that it is very similar to religion. It just goes to show that no one really knows what is best for us.

I still think it all comes down to which diet will prevent you from overeating. A lot of the details seem to be people overthinking things.

[Subby]

Thanks lungs. You have always struck me as a fairly responsible dairy farmer, but one that doesn't necessarily serve as representative for the rest of your industry.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Subby

Thanks lungs. You have always struck me as a fairly responsible dairy farmer, but one that doesn't necessarily serve as representative for the rest of your industry.

Those of us in the industry argue amongst ourselves enough, we really don't have a unifying message anyway.

Many farmers aren't really in the position to defend themselves against attacks because they've never sat through a semester of Advanced Reproductive Physiology and other such courses. Now to be honest, before this estrogen thing came up, I didn't know the answer nor had I ever considered it. The first comment about us pumping our cows full of estrogen got a bit of a condescending answer from me because I get sick of hearing comments like that where absolutely no research has gone into them other than hearing or reading something on the internet from poor alarmist sources.

Now when you posted the article you did, I had more to work with. The easiest part for me was that I could just go back to a physiology book and tie it into my own practices (which are common practices for all farmers) to at least dispel some of the alarm the article creates.

I'll leave the choice of whether the consumer wants to consume the end-product up to the consumer. For a lot of people in this thread, consuming lots of dairy or any at all is not their best choice and that's fine. I just find a lot of the hysteria in how we derive our products to be completely overblown.

I try to stay out of a lot of the arguments on Twitter and such because the discourse is too extreme for me. If I was having this same conversation on Twitter with some nut, it'd probably involve that person accusing me of being a Monsanto hack or other industry hack even when I clearly got my information from a physiology text book and my own herd. I'm more comfortable discussing things around here where the discourse is at least above adolescence for the most part. "Agvocacy" is a new word that's pretty big in the ag industry as a whole. I'll do my part in my own corner of the world here, but I have no desire to bring my own brand of agvocacy to the masses. The masses suck.

[QuikSand]

For those who are interested in the background on some of this thinking, you might find this site to be interesting:

NutritionFacts.org

Dr. Michael Greger specializes in surveying the latest studies regarding health and nutrition, and sorts through to pull out the findings, or lack thereof. He is, by virtue of his own research, a plant-based advocate, but in my estimation he gives a pretty fair treatment of a wide range of issues.

His site is also pretty easy-to-take, as it's published as a YouTube hosted video blog. A recent item was of interest to me personally, as I lost my dad just last year to an aortic aneurysm, and Shermer talks about a large study detailing risk factors for such afflictions:

How to help prevent abdominal aortic aneurysms | NutritionFacts.org

For someone like me, with my own still-evolving views, I'm surprised to see that the top thing one can do through diet to reduce risk of these aneurysms is... stop eating animals altogether. So it goes.

[QuikSand]

By the way, I have been unusually crunched at work of late, but I do plan to share a few more links that I'd recommend for those interested in these issues.

As a teaser, here's a very useful survey of information on the advantages of a plant-based diet, hosted by the site of one of the docs featured in Forks Over Knives and the author of The China Study:

*Articles*&#124* T. Colin Campbell Foundation

[QuikSand]

Okay, a few more nutshell thoughts here, more or less my own personal non-medical distillation of things I have been trying to read and understand for the last year or so.

-If weight loss is primary, or singular, on your list of goals, I don't think it's likely that you're going to see massive magical changes just from switching to a plant-based whole-foods diet, even if you do so pretty effectively. My suspicion is that most people who make the change end up making an implicit change in their calorie intake/burning, and I remain inclined to agree with most people that this is the principal underlying element of nearly all meaningful weight loss. Switching to a smarter plant based diet could well help you lose weight, but perhaps not much more than just counting calories and getting more exercise in a conventional (and maybe easier) sense. That's going to be an up-to-you deal, I think.

On that note - I finally got serious about calories within the last few months, and have seen a productive move on the scale while doing so. Some sort of discipline system (I'm using an web/app system called Lose It!) is the key for me, as it has helped me be more reticent to grab those six fruit juice-sweetened vegan cookies as a quick snack... not against the rules, but 300 calories I don't really need.

The *real* reason to make the big diet switch isn't to lose weight. It's to improve your overall health. I think we all have always understood at some level the general argument from every nutrition study -- it always goes like this: if you eat less of this [bad food], your chance of [bad thing] drops by [some percentage]. Right? Okay, let's set aside the powerful evidence about cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, dementia, and allergies for a minute -- since while the evidence suggests that a plant-based diet helps all these, it's just a percentages game. Let's just focus on heart disease, our civilized country's number one killer and the massive driver in government and private costs on health care.

People who switch to this kind of diet can almost immediately make themselves essentially heart attack proof. You can get off your statins, your beta blockers, and your blood pressure medications. Nobody in this country has to die of a heart attack, and nobody needs to be in a debilitating long-term situation because of these maladies. If you believe you're just out of luck because it's in your family history, you're missing the point. Eat better, don't smoke, and that's pretty much it. It's just off-the-charts powerful.

I'm exactly the guy who is a candidate to have a heart attack before I'm out of my 40s, unless I get my act together. Incremental stuff -- less fatty food, more exercise, and so forth -- would all help. This switch in lifestyle and diet could mean much more than that.


-If you are interested in trying to eat more healthily overall, but not sold on completely eclipsing animal products from your diet, I'd recommend a look at this site:

Dr. Joel Fuhrman Improves Health - Lose Weight Naturally | Reverse Diabetes | Prevent Heart Disease and Cancer | Lower Cholesterol

He's the author of a best selling book Eat To Live, and his basic pitch is to eat nutrient-dense foods as the foundation of your diet. He has a "holiday challenge" that asks participants to do several things for six weeks:

Eat a large salad everyday
Enjoy a generous serving of steamed greens with mushrooms and onions
Satisfy my sweet tooth with three fruits a day
Have at least one fulfilling serving of beans each day
Avoid white flour
Avoid sugars & artificial sweeteners
Use oils sparingly

There's honestly nothing on that list that is impossible to do. And his approach is basically that if you build a foundation like that (for me, that turns out to be something like 1000 calories a day, with <10g of fat and roughly 25-30g of protein) and remain reasonable with the rest of what you eat, you are going to land in a good place.

Signing up for the pledge to do it for 6 weeks gets you a free gold pass to his sit with a lot of other information and strategies. Incidentally, Fuhrman himself is plant-based arising from his own research, but he does not insist that his patients/followers completely eschew animal products (just get rid of most of them) -- so if you're looking for a rounded edge, there's an angle.

A very attractive thing about Fuhrman's approach is that if you switch to eating for nutrition (for lack of a clearer term), you can get to the point where you actually trust your body, and your hunger. He writes convincingly about "toxic hunger" as that feeling we get when we don't really need to eat but still want to... and a compelling pitch of his is that once you get out of eating garbage, your body will only be craving nutrients. So, when you're hungry, it's because you need to eat -- not because of the wide range of other reasons most of us hit the pantry once too often. I like that thinking, personally.


-If you're actually interested in learning more about the science behind this thinking, to me the best read on the topic has been ::: THE CHINA STUDY ::: , as mentioned above. I had already committed to dietary changes by the time I actually read it myself, but I have since bought a gift copy for five or six friends (people who have expressed interest, I'm not trying to proselytize to every audience).

Watching the documentary "Forks Over Knives" is obviously a quick test of whether you're open to the ideas. It's well done, but it's abbreviated and simplified by necessity. However, you get a glimpse at the super strong connections between the modern diet and so many health problems that it at least can be an eye opener.

From there, there are a lot of directions to go. One I find approachable is the Engine 2 Diet, another best seller from bookstores and now being promoted at Whole Foods groceries. Pitch there is a group of Texas firefighters engaged in a plant-based challenge, and saw all their measurable health conditions improve massively, leaving nearly all of them permanent converts. The book is a combination rah-rah with a somewhat male-oriented slant, and then a decent series of recipes (most of them pretty reliable).

[RainMaker]

What's wrong with artificial sweeteners?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What's wrong with artificial sweeteners?

Some studies link many of them (but not all of them) to increase chance of various cancers.

And speaking from personal experience, most of them give me heart burn and make me feel a lot hungrier throughout the day. The only one that hasn't is stevia, but I haven't tried erythritol.

Here's one of the videos from NutritionFactsOrg that QS linked to before about artificial sweeteners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdec8clsV7Q

[DaddyTorgo]

Something my brother pointed out the other day:

We all have to die of something. Fact of the matter is that so many of the things that used to kill us don't anymore (look at how many people survive heart attacks for instance), so eventually people end up dying from Cancer as it's one of the most resistant to treatment in elderly.

So really...it's not that instances of cancer are increasing...it's that everything else is decreasing. Not that long ago people would die of other things at an age before they really had a chance to develop cancer. That's not the case anymore.

Note: obviously people who are not elderly can get cancer too. I'm not trying to attribute all instances of cancer to this or anything...just a random thought.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

So really...it's not that instances of cancer are increasing...it's that everything else is decreasing. Not that long ago people would die of other things at an age before they really had a chance to develop cancer. That's not the case anymore.

That's a great point actually. I was doing some baseball related research and was really shocked at how many people under 50 were dying of consumption (TB) in the late 1800's and early 1900's. TB was a death sentence back then and now is not only rare in westernized countries, but only fatal in about 4% of cases.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Some studies link many of them (but not all of them) to increase chance of various cancers.

And speaking from personal experience, most of them give me heart burn and make me feel a lot hungrier throughout the day. The only one that hasn't is stevia, but I haven't tried erythritol.

Here's one of the videos from NutritionFactsOrg that QS linked to before about artificial sweeteners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdec8clsV7Q

The largest study that was done showed no correlation. It used half a million people and was independant. There really aren't any reliable studies that show a link.

The only downsides I've seen are that people think they can eat a lot more if they drink diet soda.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Something my brother pointed out the other day:

We all have to die of something. Fact of the matter is that so many of the things that used to kill us don't anymore (look at how many people survive heart attacks for instance), so eventually people end up dying from Cancer as it's one of the most resistant to treatment in elderly.

So really...it's not that instances of cancer are increasing...it's that everything else is decreasing. Not that long ago people would die of other things at an age before they really had a chance to develop cancer. That's not the case anymore.

Note: obviously people who are not elderly can get cancer too. I'm not trying to attribute all instances of cancer to this or anything...just a random thought.

This is a good point. Many of the deadliest cancers occur in elderly people. I'd be curious to see if cancer rates have increased for say people under 50.

[QuikSand]

Please understand that this is not the first time someone has contemplated age as a variable in studying things like cancer. You'll see the term "age adjusted" as a common element in all the most viable studies about cancer appearance.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The largest study that was done showed no correlation. It used half a million people and was independant. There really aren't any reliable studies that show a link.

The only downsides I've seen are that people think they can eat a lot more if they drink diet soda.

I'll have two big macs, a large fries, and filet o fish please. Oh and a diet coke

[CU Tiger]

First off, I truly enjoy eating certain meats. A thic juicy steak, count me in. And if that is one of my pleasures in life, what is the purpose of sustaining existence if you remove all pleasures.

All that said, I am not sure how you conduct a fair study. I'd love to see a study of heart attack incidents in marathon runners, who eat meat for example. I imagine most who take on a vegan life style are also generally more healthy in general than a 2 pot of coffee, 2 pack of cigs and fried twinkie fiend. SO is it the meat causing the cancers, or the absence of exercise?

For example, many of my father's family lived long lives. His grandmother and her brother each live to 105. The brother (my great great uncle who I adored as a child) smoked and dipped snuff til his dieing day, enjoyed a shot of whicky now and then (every day) drank sweet tea so thick you had to chew it, and fried three meals a day every day he lived. BUT at 105 he died in his sleep after a full day of raking autumn leaves. I never saw the man sit before 6pm and then only for the evening news before he went back outside. A daily routine was fried bacon AND sausage with a fired egg for breakfast, a fried bologna sandwich for lunch (slathered in mayo) and some fried meat for dinner. So does he just have lucky genes? Or was his uncommon activity level the cure for the ailments?

I know very few lazy vegetarians...to me I find activity level to be the biggest indicator, but admitttedly I have done no thorough scientific reseacrh study to test that theory. But there are many low carb advocates that subsist on 80+% meat based diets that claim to have lower incident rates of heart disease as well.

[BYU 14]

Got the recipe book for this today and there are some interesting concoctions in there. Looking forward to trying it out. We have some chicken and fish to get through still, but when they are gone I plan on giving this a serious effort. I will use a whey protein supplement, but apart from that stay true to the diet.

I want to tag on to CU Tigers post too as he brings up an interesting point about staying active while living an "unhealthy" lifestyle.

I think you can look at NFL players for a partial answer to this. during their careers they really eat a less than healthy diet for the most part loaded with carbs, calories and fat to get the protein and fuel they need for their high level of exercise/performance. They burn a ton of calories and reap the benefits of elite level exercise, but also have a shorter life span than the average population.

How much of this is due to the physical toll of playing football at that level takes on the body, vs how much can be attributed to maintaining the same type of diet, while becoming sedentary or reducing their physical activity a great deal would make for an interesting debate. I would love to see a study on this.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Got the recipe book for this today and there are some interesting concoctions in there. Looking forward to trying it out. We have some chicken and fish to get through still, but when they are gone I plan on giving this a serious effort. I will use a whey protein supplement, but apart from that stay true to the diet.

I want to tag on to CU Tigers post too as he brings up an interesting point about staying active while living an "unhealthy" lifestyle.

I think you can look at NFL players for a partial answer to this. during their careers they really eat a less than healthy diet for the most part loaded with carbs, calories and fat to get the protein and fuel they need for their high level of exercise/performance. They burn a ton of calories and reap the benefits of elite level exercise, but also have a shorter life span than the average population.

How much of this is due to the physical toll of playing football at that level takes on the body, vs how much can be attributed to maintaining the same type of diet, while becoming sedentary or reducing their physical activity a great deal would make for an interesting debate. I would love to see a study on this.

I think he presented an interesting point on the activity / diet argument. That said, I don't think looking at former NFL players tells you anything on this as there is just too many other variables to account for. The physical toll on the body, possible steroid use, changing activity level (but keeping same diet) once retired, etc...

[Danny]

Not a drastic change as I don't gplan to chane my protein consumption, but now that I am going into more of a cute mode I plan to incorporate more fruit and veggies into my diet as slightly less animal based product for more of a balance. I had been eating pretty bad over the holidays, so this should help along with more cardio now that I can run without pain and swelling in my ankle.

[JediKooter]

I eat things that are tasty. Over indulgence in anything you eat is not healthy. I'm not worried about living to 100 or 150. If I live to 80, great. A steak tastes great, so does broccoli, so does chocolate cake, so does corn. You can eat whatever you want (other than for medical or allergy reasons), whenever you want. You just can't always eat the chocolate cake or the ice cream all the time. I love donuts, but, I don't eat them all the time. I may go months without having any.

I just think it's odd that someone (I'm not saying anyone here) would completely cut out tasty foods simply because of a fear of it being 'unhealthy', unless there's a medical condition involved. It reminds me of when women complain about eating a piece of cheesecake will make them fat. No, eating several pieces of cheesecake, day after day and not exercising, will make you fat.

However, using the law of supply and demand, all you vegans and vegetarians, keep it up, since I would not complain one bit if the price of steak went down.

[Kodos]

I'm not that concerned about living forever either, although I would like to be around and highly functional for my kids as long as possible, since I didn't have them until my mid-30s. My main goal is to avoid the dragged out, lingering death due to cancer, a stroke, or things of that nature. I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to tell others what to eat. I think most of us on the eat less meat side are just mentioning what we are doing for ourselves. I can't make you wear a helmet or stop riding motorcycles. I can't stop you from smoking. I can't prevent you from eating nothing but meat and dairy all the time. I can and have done those things for myself. To each their own. As for me, I'm not giving up eating meat. Just cutting it way back so that it is an occasional treat instead of a staple food in my diet. Same thing goes for soda. Hopefully that works out well for me and my health improves. An ounce of prevention and all that. I just had a friend from high school die at the age of 40 from some undisclosed disease. It was a bit of an eye opener. I don't know that it was diet-related, but I suspect it was a factor for him.

[Butter]

This movie was so boring. I watched it sort of as a kickstart for a New Year diet type thing, and I just wasn't engaged at all. I found the portion of the movie that talks about the lady who got her cancer to go into remission mostly based on diet and exercise somewhat irresponsible.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm not that concerned about living forever either, although I would like to be around and highly functional for my kids as long as possible, since I didn't have them until my mid-30s. My main goal is to avoid the dragged out, lingering death due to cancer, a stroke, or things of that nature. I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to tell others what to eat. I think most of us on the eat less meat side are just mentioning what we are doing for ourselves. I can't make you wear a helmet or stop riding motorcycles. I can't stop you from smoking. I can't prevent you from eating nothing but meat and dairy all the time. I can and have done those things for myself. To each their own. As for me, I'm not giving up eating meat. Just cutting it way back so that it is an occasional treat instead of a staple food in my diet. Same thing goes for soda. Hopefully that works out well for me and my health improves. An ounce of prevention and all that. I just had a friend from high school die at the age of 40 from some undisclosed disease. It was a bit of an eye opener. I don't know that it was diet-related, but I suspect it was a factor for him.

I hear you man. I don't have kids, but, want at least one, so I would like to be around and mobile as they grow up. Soda is pretty big. It's so convenient to get and it's fairly cheap. I force myself to buy water or juice (usually apple or orange juice). There is no soda at all in my house. I eat mostly chicken and I'll get a prime rib on Fridays and every once in a while, I'll eat some porkchops. However, I always try and have a large portion of vegetables with whatever I'm eating.

I just think there's certain things we have no control over when we get hit by something like cancer. My grandpa (my dads dad) had bone cancer and prostate cancer. Skinny as a rail, ate pretty healthy, always was doing some kind of physical activity, but, cancer still came calling. However, he got the last laugh. He died about a week after breaking his neck from falling in the shower.

[Kodos]

I'm all for doing little things to help my odds.

[BYU 14]

Been meat and diary free all week, made our first dish from the Forks over Knives cookbook tonight. Black bean and rice casserole on polenta crust, pretty damn tasty. Also surprised how good vanilla almond milk tastes.

After my Holiday binging I was up to 222 last Sunday. (And this with still working out 2 times a day, 5 days a week.

I weighed 217.6 this morning, goal is to get to 195 by the time the Naga western regionals are contested in the spring so I can compete in the 197 weight class.

This is not as big of an adjustment as I thought it would be......so far anyway.

[Kodos]

I'm still adhering to the mostly plant-based diet as well. I've lost 8 pounds in 3 weeks (I also cut out soda). I still have the occasional meat or dairy, but only as a treat, not as a staple in my diet. I only drink soda when we go out to eat. Last night we had some yummy veggie tacos with black beans. So far, I have been surprised by how easy most of the dietary changes have been. It does take a little more prep time -- I have to get my salad/fruit/smoothie stuff ready the night before for each day at work.

[QuikSand]

Good for you guys. Glad you're finding the dietary switch isn't all that tough - I agree, it was much simpler than I had anticipated, too.

[Subby]

Trying to gradually get there. Have only had meat once since the new year and that was as a guest at a dinner party.

Meat is pretty easy to cut out. Dairy is next, although my big "wins" there are no ice cream since the new year (which is a HUGE problem for me) and no yogurt. Still having trouble staying away from cheese but better than I was.

On the other front, eating a lot less eggs than before. Another tough one to give up.

Just to tie it all together, told my wife I wouldn't eat sugar this year - that is harder to do because sugar is an ingredient in so many foods. In the house we are using honey or agave as a substitute.

And the protein thing is kind of ridiculous. I get plenty from greens, nuts, legumes, etc..

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Subby

Meat is pretty easy to cut out. Dairy is next, although my big "wins" there are no ice cream since the new year (which is a HUGE problem for me) and no yogurt. Still having trouble staying away from cheese but better than I was.

Not that I'm trying this, but even with my low-carb outlook and no sugar added ice cream, I need to cut down on it. I also need to cut down on the meats and cheeses, which won't be easy considering I have about ten summer sausages now from the holidays.

I *am* very much enjoying making concoctions with beans though. Mixtures of black beans/black-eyed peas/okra/tomatoes/greens/spinach/etc. Tasty, and very filling.

Made a squash and apple soup the other day that was also surprisingly filling.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I *am* very much enjoying making concoctions with beans though. Mixtures of black beans/black-eyed peas/okra/tomatoes/greens/spinach/etc. Tasty, and very filling.

Made a squash and apple soup the other day that was also surprisingly filling.

We eat a lot of homemade hummus. It's really easy with an immersion blender, and there is so much you can do with it. We skip the oil in it, so that makes it better.

Since I started really eating this way, my blood pressure is down from 135/70, which is where I had been for years, down to 123/62. That all by itself is pretty amazing.

I've had some poor stretches of eating, especially the last few weeks that have been pretty stressful for me, but I still feel committed to it. I find that when I do drink dairy milk (maybe 5 times since August), or eat a lot of junk or sugar that my body responds by not feeling well. It's something I had never noticed before, but it's hard to miss now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Subby

Still having trouble staying away from cheese but better than I was.

I was also a big cheese lover. Daiya is the best Vegan cheese substitute I have found, it comes in Cheddar, Pepperjack and Mozzarella and tastes pretty good and the best part is it melts realistically. I get it at Sprouts, but I am sure any farmers/organic market would have it.

I also made an alfredo sauce with tofu last night that was really good, added 2 types of mushrooms to the sauce and had it over whole wheat pasta. Pretty happy that I can still have a lot of the things I love and they taste pretty much the same as the "real thing."

[DaddyTorgo]

Minimizing cheese?

That's a no-go for me.

Cheese > Ice Cream

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

We eat a lot of homemade hummus. It's really easy with an immersion blender, and there is so much you can do with it. We skip the oil in it, so that makes it better.

Since I started really eating this way, my blood pressure is down from 135/70, which is where I had been for years, down to 123/62. That all by itself is pretty amazing.

I've had some poor stretches of eating, especially the last few weeks that have been pretty stressful for me, but I still feel committed to it. I find that when I do drink dairy milk (maybe 5 times since August), or eat a lot of junk or sugar that my body responds by not feeling well. It's something I had never noticed before, but it's hard to miss now.

I love hummus (though I need to dip something other than tortilla chips in it, probably - pepper slices perhaps) and bought an immersion blender to make the soup. Time to start making some myself.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Subby

Trying to gradually get there. Have only had meat once since the new year and that was as a guest at a dinner party.

Dairy is next, although my big "wins" there are no ice cream since the new year (which is a HUGE problem for me) and no yogurt. Still having trouble staying away from cheese but better than I was.

For fruit smoothies, which I usually make with lowfat yogurt, I substituted light silken tofu and added agave to sweeten it a bit. I won't lie - the yogurt version tastes better, but the tofu version is decent too.

[PilotMan]

Speaking of Tofu. My wife has a recipe for a Cream Cheese Jalapeno Popper dip. It's totally vegan. We had it at our New Years Eve party and our guest swore that they thought it was real cream cheese. Yummy stuff.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Speaking of Tofu. My wife has a recipe for a Cream Cheese Jalapeno Popper dip. It's totally vegan. We had it at our New Years Eve party and our guest swore that they thought it was real cream cheese. Yummy stuff.

Can you PM this to me? This would fill a huge snack need

Thank you

[PilotMan]

Sorry this took so long man. Here is the entire recipe.

With the Mayo it isn't totally vegan, but it's very little and yummy.

From Mrs. PilotMan

1 container tofutti at room temp. Half cup mayo (I use light salad dressing-less real dairy) half cup soy cheddar, 2 fresh jalapenos- seeded and membraned-diced, 4 oz jarred jalapenos. Mix together, spread in casserole dish. sprinkle with bread crumbs and Parmesan cheese. I spray with a little cooking spray so it will brown pretty. then bake at 350 degrees for 10-15 min. until warm through.

Tofutti is the tofu cream cheese in case you were wondering.

[Subby]

I have breakfast pretty well down now. I used to eat a lot of eggs and bacon or stop at starbucks and get a sausage/cheddar sandwich or scone (OR BOTH!)

Now I am doing two packs of regular instant oatmeal, chopped walnuts, dried fruit (usually cherries but anything we have) and a teaspoon of maple syrup. I could probably go steel cut or something a little more "whole foods" but I am actually a little more concerned about the chemicals they put on dried fruit - so I have been on the lookout for dried fruit without sulfur dioxide.

BYU - thanks for the heads-up on the vegan cheese. Will give it a try.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Subby

I have breakfast pretty well down now. I used to eat a lot of eggs and bacon or stop at starbucks and get a sausage/cheddar sandwich or scone (OR BOTH!)

Now I am doing two packs of regular instant oatmeal, chopped walnuts, dried fruit (usually cherries but anything we have) and a teaspoon of maple syrup. I could probably go steel cut or something a little more "whole foods" but I am actually a little more concerned about the chemicals they put on dried fruit - so I have been on the lookout for dried fruit without sulfur dioxide.

BYU - thanks for the heads-up on the vegan cheese. Will give it a try.

That is about the exact breakfast I plan to start eating, I will just be adding 5 egg whites to it

[QuikSand]

If you're trying to do oatmeal, I can't recommend this stuff highly enough:

McCANN'S Steel Cut Irish Oatmeal, 28-Ounce Tins (Pack of 4): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

And for crying out loud... ir you're going to make an effort, make an effort. get rid of the 13-unpronouncable-ingredient packets, man up, and boil some fucking water. Even buying the dirt cheap rolled oats from the shelf is much cheaper than instant packets, far better for you, and at worst it takes 5 minutes to make. Seriously.

We tend to make a batch by tossing it into the slow cooker at night, and it's great for the morning. Works well for grits, too, if that's your thing.

If you want to get serious with your oatmeal, some crushed nuts and/or things like flaxseed can make it even more of an energy boost for the morning. Bob's Red Mill makes a pretty good multi-grain hot cereal as well, if you're looking for variety.

[QuikSand]

If you're reading stuff like this, with an eye toward heart disease more than other things like cancer or weight loss... here are a couple of links:

The promo piece:
The 'heart attack proof' diet? - CNN.com

The full video (about 42 minutes):
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Here's your takeaway: if we just changed our diets and nothing else we probably could reduce deaths and serious medical problems from heart disease virtually to zero, even in this country.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Here's your takeaway: if we just changed our diets and nothing else we probably could reduce deaths and serious medical problems from heart disease virtually to zero, even in this country.

COme on mna...even if it is true we dont have the evidence to support that statement, neither does either link.

[QuikSand]

In the very unlikely event that you're interested in reading and/or learning about the topic, there's quite a lot of information on the topic available.

Sites like:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm

Plant-based foods and prevention of cardiovascular disease: an overview

The Science Behind Clinton's Plant-Based Diet Program

Engine 2

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...e-and-diet.pdf

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...everse-chd.pdf

I don't personally claim the medical or scientific expertise to arbitrate among competing claims in this area, and regret if I have left that impression.

I am a rational person, I have read quite a lot of material on this topic (including a number of detractors) and have come away very impressed that there's an awful lot to it. To me, The China Study was just immensely powerful -- with a major research study looking across one culture (and thereby removing most dramatic effects of racial/ethnic differences) the prevalence of a whole slate of diseases are powerfully connected to the presence of animal products and processed foods in our diets.

I am trying to be careful in my claims here, as well. I'm not saying that we could wipe out cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, and the like with dietary changes -- while the effects are seemingly powerful in all those cases, it doesn't appear that we could simply win the battles there with diet alone. But with heart disease in particular, I believe we probably could. That's our country's number one killer by far, and it appears as though nobody needs to be dying of it.

I know I sound like a cultist here... and it's possible that this is some bill of goods designed to sell a little product and make a few people famous. Can't rule it out, I suppose.

So what's the downside if I and my family start eating way, way healthier than before? Maybe my personal risk of dying of a heart attack in my 40s or 50s drops by only 50% instead of 100%? Maybe my kids don't really make huge gains in preventing cancer, but only yield healthier bodies and minds by virtue of eating better. I can live with partial outcomes like that, I think, even if I'm being "duped" into making these healthier choices.

[QuikSand]

Rip Esselstyn does a "TED talk" at an Austin event, pretty interesting whether it's legit or propaganda.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

In the very unlikely event that you're interested in reading and/or learning about the topic, there's quite a lot of information on the topic available.

Sites like:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm

Plant-based foods and prevention of cardiovascular disease: an overview

The Science Behind Clinton's Plant-Based Diet Program

Engine 2

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...e-and-diet.pdf

http://engine2diet.com/~engine2/usrf...everse-chd.pdf

I don't personally claim the medical or scientific expertise to arbitrate among competing claims in this area, and regret if I have left that impression.

I am a rational person, I have read quite a lot of material on this topic (including a number of detractors) and have come away very impressed that there's an awful lot to it. To me, The China Study was just immensely powerful -- with a major research study looking across one culture (and thereby removing most dramatic effects of racial/ethnic differences) the prevalence of a whole slate of diseases are powerfully connected to the presence of animal products and processed foods in our diets.

I am trying to be careful in my claims here, as well. I'm not saying that we could wipe out cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, and the like with dietary changes -- while the effects are seemingly powerful in all those cases, it doesn't appear that we could simply win the battles there with diet alone. But with heart disease in particular, I believe we probably could. That's our country's number one killer by far, and it appears as though nobody needs to be dying of it.

I know I sound like a cultist here... and it's possible that this is some bill of goods designed to sell a little product and make a few people famous. Can't rule it out, I suppose.

So what's the downside if I and my family start eating way, way healthier than before? Maybe my personal risk of dying of a heart attack in my 40s or 50s drops by only 50% instead of 100%? Maybe my kids don't really make huge gains in preventing cancer, but only yield healthier bodies and minds by virtue of eating better. I can live with partial outcomes like that, I think, even if I'm being "duped" into making these healthier choices.

Thanks...Ive read through some sites there and have some homework for the week.

I really want this to be true....Heart Disease is a big issue for my family. I just haven't seen anything that I couldnt point out other significant factors that werent standardized for.