Climate Change, 2022 Edition

[Edward64]

I doubt the eco-nuts will really do damage to the famous works of art (they've supposedly don't really want to damage the art itself, just want to get publicity). But I really don't think they'll find a lot of sympathy (and will probably damage credibility for other eco groups).

I've been to famous museums and there are some arts of work that are not as protected as the famous ones (e.g. just a rope to stop you from getting too close). I hope they don't get too zealous.

It would be funny if security left the eco-nuts glued to whatever, removed the works of art, and just turned off the lights.

The New York Times stated: "Climate protesters across Europe have for months been gluing themselves to the frames of famous paintings in a series of attention-grabbing stunts."

It pointed out: "In Britain, activists have attached themselves to about half-a-dozen masterpieces, including John Constable's The Hay Wain. In Germany, protesters have stuck themselves to works, including Rubens's Massacre of the Innocents, which hangs in the Alte Pinakothek in Munich. In Italy, works in the Uffizi, in Florence, and at the Vatican Museums have been targeted."

In London, demonstrators from climate change protest organizations Just Stop Oil and Extension Rebellion—which are calling on the UK government to halt new oil and gas projects—staged a series of protests in London on Friday.

Just Stop Oil said the activists threw two cans of tomato soup at Van Gogh's oil painting, one of the Dutch artist's most famous works. The two protesters also attached themselves to the gallery wall.

Prosecutors said the oil painting, which was covered with a protective glass case, was not damaged by the two activists, but the frame was damaged.

[Edward64]

A little more on EU concern on the (misnamed) Inflation Reduction Act.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/07/us-i...o-dispute.html

The European Union has “serious concerns” about the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act, saying it breaches international trade rules,
:
... and includes a record $369 billion in spending on climate and energy policies. The landmark package comprises tax credits for electric cars made in North America and supports U.S. battery supply chains.
:
The EU listed nine of the tax credit provisions that it has an issue with.

I've never bothered to read the WTO agreement, but do wonder if below highlighted is true?

Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, director general of the World Trade Organization, said Monday that countries need to be “very careful that whatever policies are taking should not be discriminatory, should not favour domestic goods.”
:
she recognized that some nations feel the “subsidies that are being given for the electric vehicles may be discriminatory against their own electric vehicle production.”

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The article doesn't get into specifics like $ impact and I wouldn't think the EU (esp. France) would be that impacted by the US push to support & subsidize local green auto industry.

(My guess is he's still butt hurt with the Australians backing out of buying French subs).

But still an angle to the pros/cons that I didn't think of, how it adversely impacts allies by pushing to go more green domestically.

France plays bad cop as transatlantic trade tensions ramp up – POLITICO

I'm thinking this is just something we're going to need to disagree with our friends. The US should go full steam ahead in supporting domestic alternate fuel vehicles..

Hyundai is also getting into the act.

Hyundai, Kia and other non-domestic automakers have been vocal opponents of the new electric vehicle tax credit regulations under the IRA. The law, passed by Congress in August, immediately eliminated a tax credit of up to $7,500 for plug-in hybrid and electric vehicles that are imported from outside North America and sold in the U.S.

Hyundai is working closely with public officials in the U.S. and South Korea to change the regulations or secure the automaker an exemption, Chang said. U.S. officials confirmed such discussions are ongoing, including a meeting last week between U.S. Trade Representative Katherine Tai and South Korea’s Minister for Trade, Ahn Dukgeun.

[whomario]

Since the "well, can't do anything anyway, let's just mitigate with magical technological advances" narrative is picking up Steam (plus of course denialists that need a new Grift for when Covid doesn't energize the donors) a overview on certain discoursive strategies and a companion collection of carricatures:

Discourses of climate delay | Global Sustainability | Cambridge Core

Discourses of Climate Delay – Leolinne

Also, the book organized by Greta Thunberg ("the climate book") is a terrific, if unnerving, read. Seems not to be released in the US yet (found it with a February release date on amazon.com) for some reason but maybe i just missed sth. It's basically a collection of essays about past, present and future aspects (ranging from impacts on insect ecology to epidemiology).

[sterlingice]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-...nels/101778814

I've often wondered that if climate change were a bigger problem in the an earlier time, if we wouldn't have more of these things. Like back when people added fluoride to water or mandated seat belts or added asbestos to everything as a flame retardant (oops). Like there's no reason that standard building codes shouldn't require any home with a base price of over $200K or $300K or whatever, for instance, shouldn't have solar panels and water recapture. We know water, energy, and pollution problems are coming/already here and could be significantly blunted by aggregating some solutions out over scale. We also know these are a small fraction of the overall cost and much more expensive to add later on.

SI

[Edward64]

Interesting article on making our electrical grid based on renewables and the challenges. There is a chart midway that shows currently fossil fuels 61%, nuclear 19%, and renewables 20%.

The challenges are:

Zoom In Icon

First of all, renewables have only recently become cost-competitive with fossil fuels for generating electricity. Even then, prices depend on the location, Paul Denholm of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory told CNBC.
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Then there’s the cost of transitioning the current power generation infrastructure, which was built around burning fossil fuels.

One of the biggest barriers to a 100% renewable grid is the intermittency of many renewable power sources. The wind doesn’t always blow and the sun doesn’t always shine — and the windiest and sunniest places are not close to all the country’s major population centers.
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The solution is a combination of batteries to store excess power for times when generation is low, and transmission lines to take the power where it is needed.

Long-duration batteries are under development, but Denholm said a lot of progress can be made simply with utility-scale batteries that store energy for a few hours.

Transmission lines are another limiting factor.

“We have been able to build a fair amount of wind and solar without adding new transmission, but we’re really kind of running up to the limits, especially for wind, because there’s not a whole lot of transmission located in the places in the country where it’s super windy,”

Land requirements? Not that big a deal

One commonly cited worry is that going 100% renewable will require massive tracts of land covered with solar panels or wind farms.

But “that is definitively not the challenge,” Moura said.

Fusion is not going to be a solution anytime soon. Fission is expensive and renewables are cheaper per kilowatt (from what I've read). I didn't think about the intermittency challenge. Hard for me to believe we can have enough batteries to store what we need, when we need it.

A simple, partial solution I would propose is conservation. It's very telling when I walk downtown at night in SEA countries and see that buildings are not lit up on every floor. I wonder what the savings are if every office building, business etc. was to have all the cleaning crew turn off the lights, air etc. to a minimum (and gets turned back on at 7:00am or so)

[Solecismic]

The challenge is what to do with peak demand. For the US, for example, the storm and associated cold front last week increased the overall need for electricity by 20%. At the same time, overall power generated by wind across the US dropped significantly.

You need backup capacity somewhere. Long-distance transmission isn't easy and it's expensive. And, not so surprisingly, when you hit the lower end of what wind is doing, it's often near the lower end just about everywhere in your proposed grid. Even now, the higher ends of national wind generation are about five times higher than the lower ends, day to day.

That's why we talk about batteries. Battery "farms" are proposed. I'd invite anyone to look at the cost of those farms and their scope compared to how much needs to be stored if fossil fuel sources are taken off-line. What's being built and what's being proposed are a minuscule percentage of what we'd need.

And that's why some people talk about using car batteries as part of that storage grid. Which means you can't use your car at times, and your battery life drops quite a bit from the added drain-charge cycles.

Here's a quote from Eric Heymann, who is a senior economist at Deutsche Bank and responsible for the energy sector:

The impact of the current climate policy on people’s everyday lives is still quite abstract and acceptable for many households. Climate policy comes in the form of higher taxes and fees on energy, which make heating and mobility more expensive. Some countries have set minimum energy efficiency standards for buildings or similar rules in other areas. However, climate policy does not determine our lives. We take key consumption decisions, for example whether we travel at all, how much we travel and which means of transport we use, whether we live in a large house or a small apartment and how we heat our homes, how many electronic devices we have and how intensely we use them or how much meat and exotic fruit we eat. These decisions tend to be made on the basis of our income, not on climate considerations.

If we really want to achieve climate neutrality, we need to change our behaviour in all these areas of life. This is simply because there are no adequate cost-effective technologies yet to allow us to maintain our living standards in a carbon-neutral way. That means that carbon prices will have to rise considerably in order to nudge people to change their behaviour. Another (or perhaps supplementary) option is to tighten regulatory law considerably. I know that “eco-dictatorship” is a nasty word. But we may have to ask ourselves the question whether and to what extent we may be willing to accept some kind of eco-dictatorship (in the form of regulatory law) in order to move towards climate neutrality.

I assume that when we talk about sacrifices (where we live, smaller houses, less travel, less heat, cell phones, less meat) it's for the general population, not legislators and other well-connected people like Heymann.

[GrantDawg]

Hilariously, the guy that got into a pissing match with Gretta Thunberg on Twitter just got arrested in Romania because in his response tweet he gave his location away. He was wanted for human trafficking.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Ksyrup]

I want sure where to put it so I posted it in the Random thread. Hilarious.

[GrantDawg]

I'm with ya. I didn't either. I can't easily open the Random thread on my phone or might have noticed.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Edward64]

Pretty funny.

I guess they called Jerry's Pizza and got a list of addresses

[Ksyrup]

I have idea who he is except I'm wondering why he thinks rocking Pitbull's look 20 years later is cool.

[GrantDawg]

He is a kickboxer that has become a men's right activist. He is also very close to some MAGA people.

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[Edward64]

Fantastic line.

Greta Thunberg
@GretaThunberg

this is what happens when you don’t recycle your pizza boxes

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Pretty funny.

I guess they called Jerry's Pizza and got a list of addresses

FWIW

Did Andrew Tate's Video of a Jerry's Pizza Box Lead to His Arrest? | Snopes.com

[Edward64]

I read the article and thought it was poorly done or premature (just my opinion).

Yes, I can concede the pizza box did not confirm he was in Romania because they already knew he was in Romania. But the title was ... did it "lead to his arrest".

They knew he was already in Romania per the article. I assume they tried to find him and did not know where he was? So I can easily believe him showing himself eating the Jerry's pizza, would have provided the detectives an easy lead to find out where he lived (e.g. call Jerry and ask him to provide all the customers within a 2 hour window, and the cops do the leg work).

Just my 2 cents.

[Edward64]

Not sure if it belongs here but somewhat related as rare earth elements are needed for EVs.

Sweden found 1M+ tonnes of the stuff.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64253708

For context though, China supposedly has 44M tonnes in reserve, Vietnam with 22M tonnes ... United States far behind with 1.8M tonnes.

Rare Earth Reserves: Top 8 Countries (Updated 2022)

I read elsewhere that Africa has a bunch too assuming countries can get access to them. So don't think the Sweden find is going to significant change status quo.

[cuervo72]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...-parking-lots/

"New French law will blanket parking lots with solar panels
The measure could add 10 nuclear power plants’ worth of solar panels atop parking lots

French parking lots could soon generate as much electricity as 10 nuclear power plants, after a law is expected to win final passage on Tuesday requiring canopies of solar panels to be built atop all substantial lots in the country."

"Substantial" = any lot for >=50 cars.

"If half of France’s parking lots are covered by solar panels, they’ll have an installed capacity of between 6.75 gigawatts and 11.25 gigawatts, at a cost of between $8.7 billion and $14.6 billion, according to the official analysis of the legislation. France’s 56 nuclear power plants each have a capacity of slightly over 1 gigawatt on average — and the one under construction in Flamanville has ballooned in cost to $14 billion, according to the latest estimate — roughly the same as the entire solar expansion."

[Lathum]

There are some lots here that do that and it make total sense. Yu get to park in the shade and energy is produced.

[NobodyHere]

I think I've seen this movie.

48,500-year-old frozen zombie virus revived in a lake of Russia

ETA: I put this here because the article mentions that global warming could "free" some virus that are currently trapped in ice.

[SirFozzie]

Isn't that the plot of Phoenix Point?

[Edward64]

Didn't quite realize how bad it was.

Hundreds of thousands in waterlogged California are without power as state's 11th atmospheric river makes its way out | CNN

The combination of strong winds and heavy rain also left over 206,000 homes and businesses without power across California early Wednesday, many of them in Santa Clara County south of San Francisco, according to PowerOutage.US.

About 30 million people across California remain under flood alerts as the storm wallops the state with repeated rounds of heavy rain and mountain snow, with rain pummeling already saturated land, threatening more dangerous floods and mudslides.

[Edward64]

I think I did read about this when Macron was pushing back on this part of the IRA but it didn't quite register.

The deal with Japan and re-reading the bolded section below has solidified my appreciation for Biden & team.

The United States and Japan on Tuesday announced a trade deal on electric vehicle battery minerals that is key to strengthening their battery supply chains and granting Japanese automakers wider access to the new $7,500 U.S. EV tax credit.

Half of the credit for purchasing consumers is reserved for North American-assembled vehicles and batteries, a source of considerable tension with the European Union, Japan and South Korea, who worry that their car and battery makers will be rendered uncompetitive.

The other half of the credit is contingent on at least 40% of the value of critical minerals in the battery having been extracted or processed in the United States or a country with a U.S. free trade agreement or recycled in North America.

And the search for & access to rare earth metals continues ...

[Edward64]

This part of the IRA will be coming to a head soon.

At its heart, Friday’s guidance creates a way to determine which car and truck models will qualify for the $7,500-per-vehicle credit under last year’s Inflation Reduction Act, based on their compliance with a new thicket of restrictions on where their battery minerals and components come from.

It leaves some key details yet to be filled in, however, and the Treasury Department could make more changes once a comment period closes on June 16.

I was not aware of below

... mean that at least some of the electric vehicles now on the market will be eligible for the federal tax credits — though many that now qualify for the tax breaks will lose them.

Carmakers didn’t have to get even this much accommodation. The strictest interpretation of the law’s sourcing requirements could have meant that not a single vehicle qualified.

Yup, would like to see this list. Are Teslas on this list?

Treasury intends to publish a monthly list of vehicles that are eligible, a number is expected to grow steadily as manufacturers navigate the requirements.

Manchin is PO'd

But he’s accused Treasury of trying to skirt the law almost since it was signed, and earlier this week groused that he thought Treasury was “going to try to screw me on this” by allowing too many countries to participate in supplying electric vehicle materials.

The U.S. critical mining industry is getting a huge boost from the law, which seeks to spur the creation of a domestic clean-energy supply chain that doesn’t yet exist. Miners have pushed to retain the law’s original provisions, to keep demand for their minerals high.

But they will face a growing number of foreign competitors as the Biden administration inks trade deals with more U.S. allies.

I think this is the (or one of) loophole he is PO'd about

Earlier this week, the Biden administration announced a novel trade arrangement allowing Japan to supply mineral resources for electric vehicles under the tax credit, despite not having a broad free-trade agreement with the United States. It’s a model that the U.S. could emulate with Europe, with a deal that could be finished before the rule takes effect April 18.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This part of the IRA will be coming to a head soon.
:
Yup, would like to see this list. Are Teslas on this list?

On the question of which cars qualified, NPR has initial list. There's more categories in the article.

These electric cars will be impacted as a tax credit is changed again : NPR

Automakers contacted by NPR say the following vehicles will still be eligible for both tax credits, worth $7,500:

Cadillac Lyriq
Chevy Silverado EV
Tesla Model Y
Tesla Model 3 (Performance)
Ford F-150 Lightning
Lincoln Aviator Grand Touring
Chrysler Pacifica plug-in hybrid

Automakers believe these vehicles may be eligible for either $3,750 or $7,500:

Chevy Bolt
Chevy Bolt EUV
Volkswagen ID.4 (vehicles built in Tennessee only)

Not really interested in any in the first list. Maybe Chevy Bolt but, by default, I'm prejudice against American cars (yeah, I know, they've gotten better since the 80's).

Noticeably absent are no Toyota, Honda or Kia automobiles. Those guys really need to get into the market.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

On the question of which cars qualified, NPR has initial list. There's more categories in the article.

These electric cars will be impacted as a tax credit is changed again : NPR


Not really interested in any in the first list. Maybe Chevy Bolt but, by default, I'm prejudice against American cars (yeah, I know, they've gotten better since the 80's).

Noticeably absent are no Toyota, Honda or Kia automobiles. Those guys really need to get into the market.

Yes I am holding off going full EV until they sort out this list and get those makers added as that credit is needed being the current price/ value proposition of EVs.

[Kodos]

Green Investing Could Push Polluters to Emit More Greenhouse Gases | Yale Insights

Sounds like we need to incentivize rather than try to punish "brown" companies.

“When you punish brown firms, they become more short-termist,” she says. Ultimately, “they pollute more when they’re punished.” On the other hand, rewarding firms that are already green does little to improve their environmental impact. Most of the green firms favored by sustainable investors tend to be in the insurance, health care, and financial services industries. According to Shue, “green firms start with close-to-zero emissions by the nature of their business, and they are very unlikely candidates to develop new green technologies.”

She and Hartzmark reached this conclusion by studying emissions data from over three thousand large companies from 2002 to 2020. They divided firms into five different segments based on greenhouse gas emissions (adjusting for revenue, because larger companies generally emit more than smaller ones). Then, using historical data, they analyzed how the highest- and lowest-emitting groups responded to changes in their cost of capital—like those the sustainable investing movement seeks to bring about.

===

Focusing too much on percentage reduction in emissions and too little on absolute emissions is a broader problem with sustainable investing, Shue argues. Brown firms that make small, hard-won percentage reductions are generally “still considered toxic assets that cannot be included in the portfolios of sustainable investment funds. And that is offering entirely the wrong incentives,” Shue says. “Instead, it motivates firms that are currently green to engage in trivial or greenwashing attempts to make themselves look even more green.”

[GrantDawg]

Carrot is usually better than the stick, but especially when it comes to the Free Market.

[Lathum]

Getting really bad here on the jersey shore from the fires. Can smell smoke inside the house. Eyes burn when you go outside. The pictures from NYC are crazy.

[miami_fan]

Seeing some of the footage, a friend asked if they were filming the latest Batman movie.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Getting really bad here on the jersey shore from the fires. Can smell smoke inside the house. Eyes burn when you go outside. The pictures from NYC are crazy.

It sucks here in the Hudson Valley. The light yellow and the smoke is visible everywhere. I need to spread a bunch of mulch, but I can't stay outside long before I start to feel it in my chest.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Getting really bad here on the jersey shore from the fires. Can smell smoke inside the house. Eyes burn when you go outside. The pictures from NYC are crazy.

Is this different from any other day in New Jersey?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Is this different from any other day in New Jersey?

How about you go fuck right off. Jersey is amazing.

[Thomkal]

Man can't wait for the lawsuits against Fox when people take their advice and go out in the "totally safe" smoke filled skies,,,

[RainMaker]

Feels like the people that caused this should go to jail.

[Edward64]

Another reactor up in GA. Maybe we need to start building more in anticipation of EV electricity needs.

The unit 3 reactor at Plant Vogtle near Waynesboro, Georgia, has started commercial operation, primary owner Georgia Power said on Monday. This follows preliminary tests in March.

The reactor, an Westinghouse AP1000, is generating approximately 1,110 megawatts of energy, which can power an estimated 500,000 homes and businesses, Georgia Power said.

Most of the nuclear energy in the United States came online in the 1970s and 1980s. Sentiment around nuclear energy nosedived in the United States after the nuclear reactor accident at Three Mile Island in 1979. “The nuclear construction industry went into the doldrums for two decades,” the industry trade group, the World Nuclear Association says.

But interest in nuclear energy has been increasing significantly in recent years as the sense of urgency in responding to climate change has pushed demand for clean energy. Nuclear energy contributed 47% of America’s carbon-free electricity in 2022, according to the DOE, and has contributed about 20% of the nation’s overall energy since the 1990s.

[Edward64]

I know IAEA & other scientists say its safe to release the water into the ocean but it doesn't sit well with me.

Although the plant is shut down, they still need to run water for cooling. Another article said they had 1000 full tanks and need to do something about the water. The article talks about how they treated it etc. to make it pretty safe.

My question - if it's so safe, why not dump it in some land? No problem if it get to that area's water table right? Why spread your mess to rest of the world.

IAEA Finds Japan’s Plans to Release Treated Water into the Sea at Fukushima Consistent with International Safety Standards | IAEA

“Based on its comprehensive assessment, the IAEA has concluded that the approach and activities to the discharge of ALPS treated water taken by Japan are consistent with relevant international safety standards,” IAEA Director General Rafael Mariano Grossi said in a foreword of the report.

“Furthermore, the IAEA notes the controlled, gradual discharges of the treated water to the sea, as currently planned and assessed by TEPCO, would have a negligible radiological impact on people and the environment,” he added.

The water stored at the FDNPS has been treated through an Advanced Liquid Processing System (ALPS) to remove almost all radioactivity, aside from tritium. Before discharging, Japan will dilute the water to bring the tritium to below regulatory standards.

[Brian Swartz]

From what I've read, this is common procedure and has been done elsewhere at higher concentrations. A cubic meter of the water is less radioactive than a single banana.

The concern is understandable emotionally because radiation, but I don't think it is logically. Low-level safe radiation is something we all deal with through our daily lives all the time.

[flere-imsaho]

The arsenic found in an apple is more deadly than that.

[Edward64]

I 95% believe the science. It's really the principle of the matter.

It's your shit. Why spread it around the neighborhood? Keep the shit in your yard. So in this instance, pour the water into your land, let it seep into your water table. You believe it's safe, right?

[NobodyHere]

You can shit in your yard. I'm going to shit in my toilet and flush it out to the rest of the community.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

You can shit in your yard. I'm going to shit in my toilet and flush it out to the rest of the community.

Okay, how about this ...

It's your dog's shit. Why spread it around the neighborhood (without picking it up, and tossing the baggie in your trash)? Keep the dog shit in your yard. So in this instance, pour the water into your land, let it seep into your water table. You believe it's safe, right?

[PilotMan]

It's all about diffusion of gases and liquids.



It's simply much easier and much more manageable to do into a liquid than on land.

[GrantDawg]

This really does seem more emotional than actual logical. "I don't want to swim in water that came from a Nuclear plant" even though that water is cleaner than the water running in a stream that a bear just pooped in a few yards back.

[Edward64]

You can't stop the Burning Man get together and not expect a reaction.

Burning Man 2023: Nevada Rangers plow truck through Extinction Rebellion protest after the activists blocked road into festival causing 'miles-long gridlock' | Daily Mail Online




See starting about 3:15.

Burning Man Festival Road SHUT DOWN, Attendees Fight Protesters and RANGERS RAM Blockade - NEVADA - YouTube

[flere-imsaho]

It's amusing how an event supposedly (and perhaps initially) focused on "community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance" has come to represent the very opposite of all those things (save perhaps art, I guess).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You can't stop the Burning Man get together and not expect a reaction.

I hope they have some leftover pot to tide them over ... nice baby spike 9 months from now.

Pretty neat picture, I didn't know it was organized that way.

Tens of thousands of people attending the Burning Man festival in the Nevada desert are being told to conserve food, water and fuel as they shelter in place in the Black Rock Desert after a heavy rainstorm pummeled the area, festival organizers said.

[Edward64]

I really don't know the pros & cons on hydrogen or the hydrogen vs electric, but my layman's sense is hydrogen is better in emissions, accessibility, long term sustainability etc.

If true ... I know the US has invested alot into "electric" but hope that does not dissuade us from helping the "hydrogen" auto industry also. I wouldn't care if we've spent X 00's of billions on subsidies, incentives, building out infrastructure etc. for electric. Sunk cost, some may say wasted, but I'm okay with pivoting in the next X years if hydrogen is viable and the real deal.

(Wonder if I should buy some Toyota stock)

Toyota Built a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Hilux Pickup Truck Prototype

Much like the Mirai, the Hilux also features three hydrogen tanks, offering an expected range in excess of 600 kilometers (372 miles). Toyota notes this is a significant level above what it believes to be achievable with a battery-electric drivetrain.

The hydrogen-powered pickup will be evaluated as a potential production model to enter the market in the second half of this decade.

[Brian Swartz]

Pros and Cons as I understand it:

Pros

- Much less battery weight is needed compared to electric vehicles, hence more range which fits with the Toyota claim.

Cons

- Hydrogen vehicles have to convert the hydrogen to electricity before they do everything than an EV does. 30-40% efficiency loss there with the last numbers I saw, so more energy is needed to do the same amount of work.

- Actually producing the hydrogen introduces an additional energy loss compared to just plugging in an EV to the grid. Optimal scenario would be a modest electrolysis operation powered by solar at the fill-up station itself, but that would still come with all the reliability issues that solar can have, esp. in areas where solar isn't as useful, and concerns about solar sustainability, and yeah. Electrolysis is pretty energy-intensive, which means that whatever shortfall there is in solar power would have to be made up in sucking more power from the grid which ... defeats the point compared to just putting the energy directly into the car. Or else you ship in the hydrogen from somewhere else, producing more pollution, more energy used, more inefficiency, and so on.

Overall

I'm sure other people know more, but basically hydrogen fuel is expensive and we need to find ways to make it more cheaply and without as much energy being lost in the extra steps it has to do before actually becoming electricity for it to compete with a standard EV. Without that, I don't see it becoming the new thing.

I do completely agree with absolutely throwing the sunk cost fallacy overboard if it ever gets there though. Let's take the best option and not just the one we've spent money on.

[Edward64]

Thanks for the info.