UNC Football Player Accused Of Rape.

[wustin]

update:

UNC football player turns self in on sexual battery charge

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Kodos

The part where girls can't drink or be alone with a guy without inviting rape. It basically absolves guys from making responsible decisions about whether a girl is capable of consenting/not consenting to sex. It puts all the responsibility on girls. Horny boys can't be asked to control themselves. We need to teach our sons to respect women and respect their choices with regards to sexual encounters.

Obviously, yes, in the real world, girls should take reasonable steps to limit their risk of being put in bad situations, but it is equally the responsibility of boys to back off it is not clear that the girl is capable of making a rational decision to consent.

I was in a similar discussion among runners last week. It's sad that women have to worry about being attacked by a male if they decide to run alone, especially at night or in the early morning. I run alone early in the morning without giving it a second thought. Women should be free to do the same thing without worrying that they might be attacked. Once again, reasonable steps can be taken by women, but men shouldn't be absolved of responsibility for their actions. We need to teach our sons to be decent men who respect women's rights.

Good answer, this is my problem as well. You can tell your daughter to put herself in good situations. But if she doesn't, the guy doesn't get a pass for raping the girl. Just like I said in my analogy above, if I do something stupid and get killed, the killer doesn't get to go free because I was asking for it. It's beyond stupid and we only seem to act this way in rape situations.

On the other side, it's CRITICAL in rape cases to give both sides the benefit of the doubt. just because Winston is a good looking guy who has did some incredibly stupid things, it doesn't mean he raped a women. Obviously, we've seen where things go completely off the rails in the Duke lacrosse case. The guy has every right to due process and to have his case heard before he's convicted.

As for the judge who made the comments above? I dont' care if he doesn't understand rape law, those were simply horrific comments to make about a violent act.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Butter

If there's one guy on these boards who I feel like has his finger on the pulse of all things college-age girl, it's JiMGa.

You'd probably be surprised at the variety of people I know. Have a teenager, live in a college town, know a metric half-ton of teens, have spent most of the past two decades with multiple teens/young adults in my close orbit with a number of them being close (or closer) than family.

At some point, well, you do pick up a few things.

Though, honestly, the complaints -- literally -- from guys about the upside down male/female sexual roles from early/mid teens onward are something that I started hearing more than a decade ago. Virtually everything I've seen with my own eyes since then has been consistent with just what I was hearing and with just what I said here.

[cuervo72]

Have to say I wouldn't have minded some "upside-down" sexual roles. Was not a good pursuer.

[tarcone]

I dont get the head in the sand attitudes of some of you. "If she says no, it means no"?
No shit. But there are probably more males out there that will take advantage of a girl, drunk or sober, than you think.

Why do many of you think that all males in college should be responsible gentlemen? That is not the case. There are going to be way more hormone hyped arseholes than we hope there are.

I think I have prepared them. But Im going to have the "Dont get yourself caught is a bad situation" talk. Because not every college aged male is like Lungs.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why do many of you think that all males in college should be responsible gentlemen? That is not the case.

I think that they should be because that is the moral and legal way to behave.

It is largely not the case because, well, most of the time they can take want they want and there are few repercussions for doing so. I mean, that Brock piece of shit was found guilty and was out in three months. Three months! The public makes excuses for them, puts the onus on women to prevent the crime. It demonizes them for being in the position where they could be raped. Drinking, dressing "provocatively." In some cases, for having the temerity to have had sex before! Cops make it a difficult crime to report, if not outright dissuade victims from reporting it. The justice system puts the victim on trial as much as the perpetrator.

So no, it isn't a surprise that men don't all behave themselves. It might be nice if we tried to at least hold them to some standards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Have to say I wouldn't have minded some "upside-down" sexual roles. Was not a good pursuer.

Let's note here that I didn't say I entirely understand the reaction it frequently gets, I'm just noting that it exists.

I just can't shake something that a guy, around 17 or so, said to me one night more than a decade ago. A pretty normal guy for his area, football player, decent student, maybe above average in looks but not a threat to ever be on the cover of GQ or anything.

He'd gone with me to a HS football game in a neighboring town & on the return trip his phone was ringing constantly. I mean literally chaining one call to the next. I didn't say anything though I suspect I might have had an amused look after hearing him excuse himself from various party invitations for a good twenty minutes.

He apologized for the interruptions, fidgeted a little bit, and then blurted out "It's not that I mind the calls or anything, but ... well, getting laid is easy these days. You have to actively avoid it to miss out. But a good football game to watch is hard to find, y'know?"

I've seen not a single thing in the years that followed to lead me to believe he was exaggerating in the slightest.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And then there's this sort of thing, from this week right here in College Town, U.S.A.

Headlines read "student victim of attempted rape & kidnapping"
Smaller headlines followed up with the proverbial rest of the story

A day after sending out a timely warning about the attempted kidnapping and rape of a University of Georgia student, UGA police brought more clarity to the incident on Wednesday afternoon.

Because of the “overwhelming concern for public safety,” UGA police investigators sought to identify the victim of the incident, and upon finding her it “was determined that much of the information relayed in the anonymous data form was not correct.”

The UGA student said as she walked along the sidewalk she was approached by an unknown male who placed his hands over her eyes from behind, which prompted her to turn in his direction in an aggressive manner. The male immediately left and the UGA student said the male “did not make any additional physical contact with her, did not attempt to direct her in any way, did not pull her off balance and never spoke during the incident.”

She also said there was no force applied to her face, neck or other parts of her body, no pulling of her in his direction and no additional contact with other parts of either of their bodies. The UGA student was not injured.

The UGA police concluded in this case that “no information gathered during this investigation leads to the belief that there is any continuing threat to the community or any individuals.”

[tarcone]

Cuervo, I agree with everything you posted. But thats not reality. Its terrible that it is put on the woman and not the male.
But as I have told my daughter since they were very young "Boys are stupid"

Its simple, but it is effective. And I hate that they are going into an environment where rape is culturally accepted.

[Ned Doolittle]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. I don't have sons so that's not my deal.
2. Just like I don't leave my doors unlocked and just assume everyone is honest, I don't want my daughters to assume everyone's parents have taught them not to be predatory.

Again, this isn't rocket science.

I expected a banning from you, you're getting soft in your old age.

But anyway, #2 is what it's all about if you are a father of a daughter. That's what the awkward convo with her will entail. College age males are a silly bunch and while that doesn't excuse their behavior, it's one of those "it is what it is" sort of things. Not all parents will have the "no means no" talk with their sons. I can't help that. I also have a son and I'll have to have that talk with him. Although, and not to derail this convo, my talk with him will be 3 points: no means no, maybe means yes and yes means hell yes what took you so long. I digress....

You can't live in a fantasy world where you say "just because a girl gets blacked out drunk doesn't give some punk the right to rape her." That "punk" is a "punk" because he doesn't know any better and wasn't raised properly. That's not your concern, your reality and your daughter's reality is the fact the punk - and many like him - exist and walk the earth. We live in a world of predators who don't stop at no and don't care abou having sex with unconscious girls. That's a reality. So because this is reality unfortunately the responsibility falls back on to the girl/everyone's daughters.

Don't go taking a moonlight stroll in a dark forest, Red Riding Hood, I hear there's wolves out there.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

I expected a banning from you, you're getting soft in your old age.

But anyway, #2 is what it's all about if you are a father of a daughter. That's what the awkward convo with her will entail. College age males are a silly bunch and while that doesn't excuse their behavior, it's one of those "it is what it is" sort of things. Not all parents will have the "no means no" talk with their sons. I can't help that. I also have a son and I'll have to have that talk with him. Although, and not to derail this convo, my talk with him will be 3 points: no means no, maybe means yes and yes means hell yes what took you so long. I digress....

You can't live in a fantasy world where you say "just because a girl gets blacked out drunk doesn't give some punk the right to rape her." That "punk" is a "punk" because he doesn't know any better and wasn't raised properly. That's not your concern, your reality and your daughter's reality is the fact the punk - and many like him - exist and walk the earth. We live in a world of predators who don't stop at no and don't care abou having sex with unconscious girls. That's a reality. So because this is reality unfortunately the responsibility falls back on to the girl/everyone's daughters.

Don't go taking a moonlight stroll in a dark forest, Red Riding Hood, I hear there's wolves out there.

I agree with most of this except the bolded part. This will get your son into some big trouble. When a girl says maybe, more likely than not there will be buyers remorse and then charges filed.

You better just teach him to hear the word "Yes".

[JPhillips]

Or you could teach your son to only do the things she consents to.

And who cares if a girl likes to have sex? Her no means the same thing as a virgin's no.

[Ned Doolittle]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I agree with most of this except the bolded part. This will get your son into some big trouble. When a girl says maybe, more likely than not there will be buyers remorse and then charges filed.

You better just teach him to hear the word "Yes".

...And if that's the case then the "maybe" will become a "no" and then it turns into a "no means no" scenario.

Not to derail, but I'll also teach him the difference between "soft no" and "hard no". Hard no you stop everything and ask her if she'd like to be dropped off to her home. Soft no often means "you're moving too fast buddy". Regardless, any no is the indication to "stop what you're doing, I'm not comfortable with this."

Unfortunately, and this is why I'm not quick to hang college males accused of rape, is the interpretation of a hard no/soft no might differ from person to person and can be affected by the amount of alcohol consumed. This goes back to having that talk with my daughter where I'll inform her of the mindset of a horny young male and the fact that not every boy comes from respectable upbringing and that bad choices on her part can put her at the mercy of those low-character males who have bad agendas.

[Ned Doolittle]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I've missed you, Franklin.

Franklin? That's an insult. Now if you called me Dean Houston that'd be a compliment.

[cuervo72]

There is no soft no.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Or you could teach your son to only do the things she consents to.

And who cares if a girl likes to have sex? Her no means the same thing as a virgin's no.

This.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

...And if that's the case then the "maybe" will become a "no" and then it turns into a "no means no" scenario.

Not to derail, but I'll also teach him the difference between "soft no" and "hard no". Hard no you stop everything and ask her if she'd like to be dropped off to her home. Soft no often means "you're moving too fast buddy". Regardless, any no is the indication to "stop what you're doing, I'm not comfortable with this."

Unfortunately, and this is why I'm not quick to hang college males accused of rape, is the interpretation of a hard no/soft no might differ from person to person and can be affected by the amount of alcohol consumed. This goes back to having that talk with my daughter where I'll inform her of the mindset of a horny young male and the fact that not every boy comes from respectable upbringing and that bad choices on her part can put her at the mercy of those low-character males who have bad agendas.

Fucking terrifying.
Insulting.
Unbelievable.
Disgraceful.

Any more comments furthering my opinion of your post will ensure the same restraint you praised won't be shown on me.

[Izulde]

Some of y'all clearly aren't aware of how this affects women. Soft no? Buyer's remorse? GTFOH with that nonsense. When a woman's been raped, or even believes she's been raped, that changes her life forever.

I've had some students open up to me about their experiences in that type of traumatic situation. You don't ever completely recover from it. Yes, after time you're able to get back to as close to normal as you'll ever get (length of time varies from person to person), but there's a loss of trust in people. You become more aware - even hyperaware - and constantly are on guard and prone to fear, even if you already careful before that happened to you.

I'm not saying false charges don't happen. I'm saying they're far more rare than it seems like some posters are trying to insinuate here. And it's not difficult to avoid putting yourself in that situation. A woman gives a no of any kind? Don't. A woman says yes, but she's clearly trashed out of her mind? Don't. Learn some damned self-control and stop excusing it with bullshit like "interpretations".

[wustin]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And then there's this sort of thing, from this week right here in College Town, U.S.A.

Headlines read "student victim of attempted rape & kidnapping"
Smaller headlines followed up with the proverbial rest of the story

A day after sending out a timely warning about the attempted kidnapping and rape of a University of Georgia student, UGA police brought more clarity to the incident on Wednesday afternoon.

Because of the “overwhelming concern for public safety,” UGA police investigators sought to identify the victim of the incident, and upon finding her it “was determined that much of the information relayed in the anonymous data form was not correct.”

The UGA student said as she walked along the sidewalk she was approached by an unknown male who placed his hands over her eyes from behind, which prompted her to turn in his direction in an aggressive manner. The male immediately left and the UGA student said the male “did not make any additional physical contact with her, did not attempt to direct her in any way, did not pull her off balance and never spoke during the incident.”

She also said there was no force applied to her face, neck or other parts of her body, no pulling of her in his direction and no additional contact with other parts of either of their bodies. The UGA student was not injured.

The UGA police concluded in this case that “no information gathered during this investigation leads to the belief that there is any continuing threat to the community or any individuals.”

I got emails like that from the university alert center all the fucking time when I was in college. No misleading subject lines or anything but pretty much a wall of text saying pretty much nothing happened but something could've happened so watch out!

[Butter]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You'd probably be surprised at the variety of people I know. Have a teenager, live in a college town, know a metric half-ton of teens, have spent most of the past two decades with multiple teens/young adults in my close orbit with a number of them being close (or closer) than family.

At some point, well, you do pick up a few things.

Though, honestly, the complaints -- literally -- from guys about the upside down male/female sexual roles from early/mid teens onward are something that I started hearing more than a decade ago. Virtually everything I've seen with my own eyes since then has been consistent with just what I was hearing and with just what I said here.

So all of these girls that are "closer than family"... you noticed that they're all horny as shit all the time? Or what?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Let's note here that I didn't say I entirely understand the reaction it frequently gets, I'm just noting that it exists.

I just can't shake something that a guy, around 17 or so, said to me one night more than a decade ago. A pretty normal guy for his area, football player, decent student, maybe above average in looks but not a threat to ever be on the cover of GQ or anything.

He'd gone with me to a HS football game in a neighboring town & on the return trip his phone was ringing constantly. I mean literally chaining one call to the next. I didn't say anything though I suspect I might have had an amused look after hearing him excuse himself from various party invitations for a good twenty minutes.

He apologized for the interruptions, fidgeted a little bit, and then blurted out "It's not that I mind the calls or anything, but ... well, getting laid is easy these days. You have to actively avoid it to miss out. But a good football game to watch is hard to find, y'know?"

I've seen not a single thing in the years that followed to lead me to believe he was exaggerating in the slightest.

So at what point within these personal anecdotes of yours do you explain how this means girls are now far more predatory than guys when it comes to sex?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

Franklin? That's an insult. Now if you called me Dean Houston that'd be a compliment.

It was a toss-up between that and Anthony. I chose poorly, clearly.

[Kodos]

Girls routinely get guys drunk and then take advantage of them. Don'tcha know?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'm not saying false charges don't happen. I'm saying they're far more rare than it seems like some posters are trying to insinuate here.

And I'm not saying real charges don't happen. And I'm not saying that a lot of real one don't go unreported. I'm saying that situations like the ones under discussion here in the original post that I'd wager more than half are complete bullshit. I've seen & heard too much to believe otherwise.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

So at what point within these personal anecdotes of yours do you explain how this means girls are now far more predatory than guys when it comes to sex?

Because over the past couple of decades, I've seen few guys willing to chase pretty much anything other than beer or video games. And I've watched some insane behavior from the other side that, frankly, guys would have killed to be subjected to just a couple of decades ago. And that's across multiple socio-economic spectrums, across multiple locations.

At least in the 13-23 age range, by the time you get to the mid-20s it seems less common AND I've not had the same amount of exposure to that demo (people move, life goes on, etc etc)

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Because over the past couple of decades, I've seen few guys willing to chase pretty much anything other than beer or video games. And I've watched some insane behavior from the other side that, frankly, guys would have killed to be subjected to just a couple of decades ago. And that's across multiple socio-economic spectrums, across multiple locations.

I've seen the same thing, but I still wouldn't call what you're describing as "insane behavior" as "predatory".

[cuervo72]

I'll chime in one data point - mine doesn't seem to be all that interested in chasing yet either. He has so much stuff to juggle that when he's not juggling he just wants to be in front of his computer monitor.

(That said, he has undergone a HUGE change in appearance in the last two years. I don't know all the factors behind that - other than health - but I imagine girls might be one.)

[Logan]

The "insane behavior" is apparently that girls like sex too and don't need to be prudish about it like it's the 1960s.

[larrymcg421]

Girls like sex = they make up rape stories. WTF?

[Ned Doolittle]

I'm not interested in schooling ppl in the behaviors of females. That having been said yes there are indeed "soft no's". Yes, no means no so you stop whatever you're doing that elicited the soft or hard no. But soft no means "let's revisit this" "I'm not comfortable yet". Either that means she needs more time later that evening or the next date. But if men stopped at every soft no, every "I have a boyfriend" every "I'm busy that night" then there'd be less ppl walking the earth. There's a difference between "I have a boyfriend" and "get the fuck out of my face you ugly troll!". One is a hard no, the other is a soft no.

My point is when a girl compromises herself by getting severely drunk, going to a party alone without her buddy support system, agrees to be isolated with a drunk frat guy she now puts herself in a position where she's at the mercy of some guy who may have a loose interpretation between soft and hard no (or may not care about the difference). This is why you'll frequently here the (accused) rapist say things like "she wanted it", or "she was saying no but her body was saying yes" or "I thought she was playing hard to get" or any of their excuses. If you weren't raised properly your ability to know the differences between soft and hard no is gonna be off. That's a parenting (or lack thereof) issue. My talks with my little girl when she gets older will involve letting her know about the mindset of the typical frat guy (that is, someone who wouldn't frequent a text sim football message board). Many of you may have stopped at every "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm busy that weekend" but the typical male sure won't.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

I'm not interested in schooling ppl in the behaviors of females. That having been said yes there are indeed "soft no's". Yes, no means no so you stop whatever you're doing that elicited the soft or hard no. But soft no means "let's revisit this" "I'm not comfortable yet". Either that means she needs more time later that evening or the next date. But if men stopped at every soft no, every "I have a boyfriend" every "I'm busy that night" then there'd be less ppl walking the earth. There's a difference between "I have a boyfriend" and "get the fuck out of my face you ugly troll!". One is a hard no, the other is a soft no.

My point is when a girl compromises herself by getting severely drunk, going to a party alone without her buddy support system, agrees to be isolated with a drunk frat guy she now puts herself in a position where she's at the mercy of some guy who may have a loose interpretation between soft and hard no (or may not care about the difference). This is why you'll frequently here the (accused) rapist say things like "she wanted it", or "she was saying no but her body was saying yes" or "I thought she was playing hard to get" or any of their excuses. If you weren't raised properly your ability to know the differences between soft and hard no is gonna be off. That's a parenting (or lack thereof) issue. My talks with my little girl when she gets older will involve letting her know about the mindset of the typical frat guy (that is, someone who wouldn't frequent a text sim football message board). Many of you may have stopped at every "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm busy that weekend" but the typical male sure won't.

Why are you putting a "soft no" that would elicit a response of "I have a boyfriend" like a girl would say at a bar to an approaching guy, on the same level as a "soft no" that a girl would say to a guy as they are making out and he is hoping to have sex with her?

[Ned Doolittle]

A soft no (to me and others):

In the backseat of your car. Making out. You've already groped the breasts. Maybe her top is off. You decide to escalate to next level and your hand/fingers make their way to a much more personal area of her body. She takes your hand away and says softly "I'm not that kind of girl" and continues making out with you. You can decide to zip up and take her home at that point if you like. Me? I'm gonna back up at her request and revisit that again in a bit to see if her mind changed.

That's a soft no.

Same scenario but instead of her taking your hand away she slaps it aggressively and says startled "what the fuck are you doing?! We're just making out I'm not that kind of girl!" And she sits up and covers herself instead of going back to making out.

That's a hard no.

I don't want to play devil's advocate for college guy rapists, but let me leave this discussion (cuz I've said much more than I was comfortable saying, I just wanted to get one point across as a father of a girl) with this:

From what I can tell/remember, all of these college rape stories never seem to start with the girl saying "I was walking from the library after a few hours of studying and some guy jumped out from the bushes and raped me." For some reason they all *seem* to start with "I went to a party and had too much to drink and blacked out and when I regained consciousness I discovered I was raped."

Food for thought.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

In the backseat of your car. Making out. You've already groped the breasts. Maybe her top is off. You decide to escalate to next level and your hand/fingers make their way to a much more personal area of her body. She takes your hand away and says softly "I'm not that kind of girl" and continues making out with you. You can decide to zip up and take her home at that point if you like. Me? I'm gonna back up at her request and revisit that again in a bit to see if her mind changed.

That's a soft no.

So... coercion?

From what I can tell/remember, all of these college rape stories never seem to start with the girl saying "I was walking from the library after a few hours of studying and some guy jumped out from the bushes and raped me." For some reason they all *seem* to start with "I went to a party and had too much to drink and blacked out and when I regained consciousness I discovered I was raped."

So?

[dawgfan]

So in all of this discussion of what women should do and what their fathers should advise them, there's been very little discussion about the most important thing: What fathers should be telling their sons. Namely, don't rape. When a girl says "no", then stop. If she's clearly drunk (and you don't already have a clearly established relationship where you can be certain she'd give consent), she's not in a position to give consent regardless of what she says.

Can we start focusing discussions of rape where it belongs, on changing male behavior and male thinking?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So in all of this discussion of what women should do and what their fathers should advise them, there's been very little discussion about the most important thing: What fathers should be telling their sons. Namely, don't rape. When a girl says "no", then stop. If she's clearly drunk (and you don't already have a clearly established relationship where you can be certain she'd give consent), she's not in a position to give consent regardless of what she says.

Can we start focusing discussions of rape where it belongs, on changing male behavior and male thinking?

Fuckin'

A

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If she's clearly drunk (and you don't already have a clearly established relationship where you can be certain she'd give consent), she's not in a position to give consent regardless of what she says.

This.
100x.

As a parent of a teenage boy and a daughter who will be 13 on the 24th...this.

There is a big difference between first time shyness, coyness, etc. and *hiccup* No *snore*.

Now I am all for a drunken romp between the sheets. If its an established relationship and a continuance of a behavior pattern(sexual activity) , then by all means carry on, and soft nos are things. If its your first time together, and either of you are too inebriated to think clearly. Then BOT parties should wait until clearer heads prevail.

[muns]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

So in all of this discussion of what women should do and what their fathers should advise them, there's been very little discussion about the most important thing: What fathers should be telling their sons. Namely, don't rape. When a girl says "no", then stop. If she's clearly drunk (and you don't already have a clearly established relationship where you can be certain she'd give consent), she's not in a position to give consent regardless of what she says.

Can we start focusing discussions of rape where it belongs, on changing male behavior and male thinking?

THIS....................... Thank you for saying this Kirk

When I give my talk at orientation and what guys in particular don't understand is when its ok and when its not ok to go for it. The hard part about this is different states have different laws. You would think that No means No everywhere and unfortunately that simply is not the case.

There are laws out there that say once you have consented, you cant take it back, so in the middle of intercourse if a women says no or stop, there is nothing the police can do if you are in a state like that. This goes back to rape laws being so out of date, because way back when women were considered property of men. The law never saw a husband raping the wife, because the wife was the husbands to do whatever he wanted with.

So everybody with daughters on this board please be checking with state laws because there is no one simple definition that goes across the country and people get hurt because they think they understand when they really don't.

In Maryland, you cant give consent to any type of sexual act if you are incapacitated, or have a mental handicap. Where it gets confusing is who defines incapacitation. While its simple in terms of coming up with a definition, its not simple in application. At no time during a sexual assault investigation can I pull out a card and say well I have a BAC level here and at 1:30am you were a .09

On top of that witness testimony is so unreliable. So ill pull in 100 kids at a party and 50 of then will tell me "ohh ya she was wasted" and 50 will tell me "she was totally fine". Both the respondent and the complainant will tell me the exact opposite, and then I am basically stuck.

So while technically its not a crime in Maryland to have drunk sex, I teach men that if they have been drinking get her number and call her the next day, because you are putting at lot on my to prove something that is hard for me to prove.

I could write a book on all this stuff, but I wont, but THIS IS A MEN'S ISSUE

[Butter]

The thing that struck me from earlier was JiMGa's story about driving around with a guy whose phone was blowing up, who basically talked about how easy it is to "get laid".

I am NOT SAYING this guy is a rapist. But I think it is when certain guys get said "no" to who have had it that easy, and have an entitled attitude is when they can get into trouble.

[JeeberD]

There's a case that just ended today in El Paso where a former UTEP football player (he was a current player at the time of the incident) was accused of a dorm room rape.

Former UTEP athlete found not guilty in rape trial

From what I read she willingly went back to his room, kissed him, got undressed, but at some point decided she didn't want to have sex and according to her lawyer told him "no" several times. She came back to her dorm afterward and told her roommate that she just lost her virginity and that she was upset because "it wasn't special." A medical exam didn't find any evidence of forced penetration, though.

The football player was found not guilty.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Its simple, but it is effective. And I hate that they are going into an environment where rape is culturally accepted.

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

That's not your concern, your reality and your daughter's reality is the fact the punk - and many like him - exist and walk the earth. We live in a world of predators who don't stop at no and don't care abou having sex with unconscious girls. That's a reality.

What world do you people live in? You can't deny there are complete pieces of shit like the Brock kid at Stanford, but they are exceedingly rare. The "epidemic" of college sexual assaults* tends to involve two drunk people who don't know each other very well & the problems with figuring out implied vs affirmative consent under those circumstances.

* - I put that in quotes not because I believe that sexual assaults aren't happening on campuses, but because I have trouble believing the rate they're occurring is higher these days when teenagers are having less sex and there is more attention paid to this topic (though obviously there is still much more to be done.)

Originally Posted by Izulde

Some of y'all clearly aren't aware of how this affects women. Soft no? Buyer's remorse? GTFOH with that nonsense. When a woman's been raped, or even believes she's been raped, that changes her life forever.

And therein lies the rub... Everyone except the true egregious outliers like the Stanford kid understand that No means No, and if the girl is too drunk to stand you shouldn't be making any moves, but that's not what's happening in the tougher cases. (And from my limited knowledge here, this case seems to fall into the tougher case category.) If a girl willingly goes to a room with a guy to hook up with him, doesn't want to have sex but doesn't verbalize it or make it physically obvious when he takes that next progression is that rape? When someone is putting the pieces of their night back together, knows they had sex but didn't think they would have agreed to it, does that mean they didn't give consent at the time? (And the answer in both cases is I don't know? Maybe? It depends? I need more information to go on?)

There aren't easy answers, I always personally erred on the side of caution and teach my kids that, and that doubt is terrible. But I'm not going to sit here in an ivory tower and say you should just make it easy and never have sex with someone who's been drinking... Because that's 90%+ of HS/college kids who hook up outside of relationships. And as dickish as it is for the DA to verbalize a standard that "unconscious sex is rape, but black out sex is not" or the campus police to laugh with the LB during their interview, it's not victim blaming to acknowledge that drunk people of both sexes tend to be more promiscuous and occasionally do dumb things they'll regret in the morning. (And again, I don't have the facts of this particular case.) But you can GTFOH with the idea that the accused in all these cases is crossing a clearly delineated line, that there's always an obvious answer when you're talking about the post facto recollections of two impaired people, or that someone like me who states positions along those lines doesn't also know girls who have been through that horror.

[tarcone]

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

This is great, and when my son is old enough, I'll probably use something like this as part of the conversation about sex and rape. It does however skip over the difficult gray area of consent when the other person isn't sober, and I suspect that lack of sobriety is a factor in a majority of rape cases.

[ISiddiqui]

I think this thread shows that while parents definitely should tell their daughters about risks, that they should be clear (and society should too): rape is the fault of the rapist and the rapist alone.

To hedge and fudge and say soft no/hard no, or put the onus on the riskiness of the behavior of the woman is basically creating a pathway to blaming her for it in the end. We need to be clear that the rapist is to blame, regardless of telling your daughter to be careful of the risk involved.

[dawgfan]

...and as it so happens, this came across my feed today:

What Does Consent Look Like When You're Wasted

This article does a very good job illustrating the gray areas of drunk sex and how it relates to consent. It also hints at a broader issue, namely some of the difficulties of calling a regrettable drunken hook-up the same thing as a clearly violent sexual assault. While I get why some aren't in favor of distinguishing between any kind of rape, the reality is there are degrees.

What happened to Brock Turner's victim is a much more deplorable act than the one the author describes where it's hard to determine a level of drunkenness, and thus capability of consent. Yet by calling them both the same thing, it can actually inhibit the process of trying to bring some healing after the fact.

Nobody wants to be called a "rapist". But I'll bet a lot of people can look back on drunken hook-ups and find a time (or two) where consent was not necessarily clear due to one (or both) parties being too wasted to really make informed decisions.

Anyway, I thought this article was timely and insightful, and I like the comparison of whether to engage in sex after drinking as being similar to whether one should drive after drinking. And I agree with her that even then, that line is a tough one. I've certainly had sex myself when I've been quite a bit more drunk than I could legally drive.

[muns]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The "epidemic" of college sexual assaults* tends to involve two drunk people who don't know each other very well & the problems with figuring out implied vs affirmative consent under those circumstances.

* - I put that in quotes not because I believe that sexual assaults aren't happening on campuses, but because I have trouble believing the rate they're occurring is higher these days when teenagers are having less sex and there is more attention paid to this topic (though obviously there is still much more to be done.)

As someone who works in this field, and does both the investigation and adjudication of sexual assaults on a college campus, I was in your camp at first.

When this first blew up everything hinged on a study that was done with 2 tiny small colleges, and even the authors of the study were cautioning people not to use the 1 in 5 stat. For those that don't know that stat was 1 in 5 college women will experience some form of sexual assault by the time they graduate college. Simply a mind blowing stat.

The federal government jumped all over it, with Biden leading the charge and then every state and local politician trying to make a name for themself started proposing bills on how colleges should be doing things. Yes, things needed to change, but the stuff I have to do now to comply with regs when honestly it shouldn't be my job to begin with is also mind blowing. Trying to comply with both state and federal regs, when sometimes they are in direct opposition of each other only makes it harder on colleges.

Colleges shouldn't be getting regulated they way we are, it should be the police departments, but that's a different conversation all together.

Anyways, part of the regulation requires colleges to do whats called a campus climate survey of their population. As more and more of these surveys came back, and more and more data came in, the 1 in 5 stat held true, and continues to hold true.

My campus did the survey last spring, and I used it for my grad school work, and our data also came back with 1 in 5.

So this is happening. The issue is that these women aren't reporting it. Technically, I should have had something like 800 some cases last year, and only 26 got reported.... Even less got reported to the police department.

Its actually pretty easy to see if you work on a college campus. You should see our homecoming dance. I view it like a porno with clothes on. Pretty disgusting honestly, and the amount of women I see that decide to "twerk" upside down on the wall with full thong and ass cheeks hanging out is also mind blowing..... Young people's values and morals have gone to shit, and because of it, these assaults are occurring at an alarming rate.

[booradley]

Originally Posted by muns

As someone who works in this field, and does both the investigation and adjudication of sexual assaults on a college campus, I was in your camp at first.

When this first blew up everything hinged on a study that was done with 2 tiny small colleges, and even the authors of the study were cautioning people not to use the 1 in 5 stat. For those that don't know that stat was 1 in 5 college women will experience some form of sexual assault by the time they graduate college. Simply a mind blowing stat.

The federal government jumped all over it, with Biden leading the charge and then every state and local politician trying to make a name for themself started proposing bills on how colleges should be doing things. Yes, things needed to change, but the stuff I have to do now to comply with regs when honestly it shouldn't be my job to begin with is also mind blowing. Trying to comply with both state and federal regs, when sometimes they are in direct opposition of each other only makes it harder on colleges.

Colleges shouldn't be getting regulated they way we are, it should be the police departments, but that's a different conversation all together.

Anyways, part of the regulation requires colleges to do whats called a campus climate survey of their population. As more and more of these surveys came back, and more and more data came in, the 1 in 5 stat held true, and continues to hold true.

My campus did the survey last spring, and I used it for my grad school work, and our data also came back with 1 in 5.

So this is happening. The issue is that these women aren't reporting it. Technically, I should have had something like 800 some cases last year, and only 26 got reported.... Even less got reported to the police department.

Its actually pretty easy to see if you work on a college campus. You should see our homecoming dance. I view it like a porno with clothes on. Pretty disgusting honestly, and the amount of women I see that decide to "twerk" upside down on the wall with full thong and ass cheeks hanging out is also mind blowing..... Young people's values and morals have gone to shit, and because of it, these assaults are occurring at an alarming rate.

At the last Wake homecoming I went to (3-ish years ago), there was a young couple basically having anal sex (they would claim they were "dancing") while 20 feet away children were playing volleyball. Couldn't believe this is the level society has sunk to.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Ned Doolittle

...And if that's the case then the "maybe" will become a "no" and then it turns into a "no means no" scenario.

Not to derail, but I'll also teach him the difference between "soft no" and "hard no". Hard no you stop everything and ask her if she'd like to be dropped off to her home. Soft no often means "you're moving too fast buddy". Regardless, any no is the indication to "stop what you're doing, I'm not comfortable with this."

Unfortunately, and this is why I'm not quick to hang college males accused of rape, is the interpretation of a hard no/soft no might differ from person to person and can be affected by the amount of alcohol consumed. This goes back to having that talk with my daughter where I'll inform her of the mindset of a horny young male and the fact that not every boy comes from respectable upbringing and that bad choices on her part can put her at the mercy of those low-character males who have bad agendas.

Everybody else has chimed in here, but I did want to tell you this. If you had a son that was accused of a sexual assault, and he walked into my office or anybody else's office on another college for that matter, and he gave that speech to a hearing officer, or a board, about a hard no or a soft no, I can assure you, he would be found responsible for violating a sexual assault policy and wouldn't be attending that college anymore. He also would have a hard time getting into another institution because that would follow him.

There isn't a difference between a hard or a soft no in these circumstances. Its a clear line. Don't set him up for failure even if you believe what you believe in 100%.

The standard that college hearing officers, or hearing boards go by is called the Preponderance of evidence standard. That means more than likely than not to have occurred. Put another way, its 51% of me believes it occurred vs. 49% of me.

That soft no stuff wouldn't fly at all.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think this thread shows that while parents definitely should tell their daughters about risks, that they should be clear (and society should too): rape is the fault of the rapist and the rapist alone.

To hedge and fudge and say soft no/hard no, or put the onus on the riskiness of the behavior of the woman is basically creating a pathway to blaming her for it in the end. We need to be clear that the rapist is to blame, regardless of telling your daughter to be careful of the risk involved.

(At least amongst my social circles) no one disputes that rape is the fault of the rapist. The "hedging & fudging" is about what defines rape.

Fwiw, the #1 thing I try to impress on every young girl or boy who comes into my sphere of influence is to be proud of yourself and own your own actions. Considering the context of this thread I suppose it's necessary to clarify that bad things that aren't your fault can still happen whether sober or not, but "I was drunk" is an explanation, not an excuse, for your own actions.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

...and as it so happens, this came across my feed today:

What Does Consent Look Like When You're Wasted

This article does a very good job illustrating the gray areas of drunk sex and how it relates to consent. It also hints at a broader issue, namely some of the difficulties of calling a regrettable drunken hook-up the same thing as a clearly violent sexual assault. While I get why some aren't in favor of distinguishing between any kind of rape, the reality is there are degrees.

What happened to Brock Turner's victim is a much more deplorable act than the one the author describes where it's hard to determine a level of drunkenness, and thus capability of consent. Yet by calling them both the same thing, it can actually inhibit the process of trying to bring some healing after the fact.

Nobody wants to be called a "rapist". But I'll bet a lot of people can look back on drunken hook-ups and find a time (or two) where consent was not necessarily clear due to one (or both) parties being too wasted to really make informed decisions.

Anyway, I thought this article was timely and insightful, and I like the comparison of whether to engage in sex after drinking as being similar to whether one should drive after drinking. And I agree with her that even then, that line is a tough one. I've certainly had sex myself when I've been quite a bit more drunk than I could legally drive.

I liked it.

he asked if he could kiss me, asked if he could sleep in my bed with me, asked if he could take my clothes off, asked if he could take off his own. So much of the evening happened at his direction, with what appeared to be enthusiastic, explicit consent.

A few days later, he told me over email that he’d been blackout drunk the whole time and felt that I’d taken advantage of his inebriated state.

Idk if I entirely buy this story because I feel there's a LOT of background info missing and I'd be interested to see how exactly he phrased things in that email, but yeah that framework happens too often, and it's why so many of these incidents are brutal to adjucate.

Originally Posted by muns

So this is happening. The issue is that these women aren't reporting it. Technically, I should have had something like 800 some cases last year, and only 26 got reported.... Even less got reported to the police department.

Yeah, we agree there too. I just think the few who are reporting it are a few more than were doing so a generation ago, not that the rate of incidences is rising.

Its actually pretty easy to see if you work on a college campus. You should see our homecoming dance. I view it like a porno with clothes on. Pretty disgusting honestly, and the amount of women I see that decide to "twerk" upside down on the wall with full thong and ass cheeks hanging out is also mind blowing..... Young people's values and morals have gone to shit, and because of it, these assaults are occurring at an alarming rate.

I'm shocked by the lack of decorum at times as well, but 15 years ago my HS cancelled dances due to lewd behavior & excessive alcohol consumption by girls, and this whole time the rate of teens engaging in sexual activity has been dropping, so I don't buy the values and morals argument. It's just more public. And just wait until the media starts catching on to what's happening on Snapchat etc... (Let's just say that part of the the USC LB story doesn't surprise me one bit.)

[molson]

Originally Posted by muns

Everybody else has chimed in here, but I did want to tell you this. If you had a son that was accused of a sexual assault, and he walked into my office or anybody else's office on another college for that matter, and he gave that speech to a hearing officer, or a board, about a hard no or a soft no, I can assure you, he would be found responsible for violating a sexual assault policy and wouldn't be attending that college anymore. He also would have a hard time getting into another institution because that would follow him.

That's why it's so important that universities stay involved in student discipline in cases like this, instead of deferring to the police and prosecutors and waiting out the criminal investigation - which is a popular opinion right now. Because what he described wouldn't be rape or any crime in my state, but a university, like any organization, certainly should be able to regulate that conduct.

It is interesting to see how quickly we've gone from the primary media narrative of colleges not doing enough to stop this stuff, to now universities being criticized and sued for being too aggressive in expelling students, using a process that is, of course, much less friendly to the accused than the criminal justice system. A lot of people are really butthurt about that right now, but of course an organization should be allowed to regulate the behavior of its members. Subject to the civil law limitations, and I guess Title IX, though I'm not sure it's being interpreted correctly now in this context.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by muns

Its actually pretty easy to see if you work on a college campus. You should see our homecoming dance. I view it like a porno with clothes on. Pretty disgusting honestly, and the amount of women I see that decide to "twerk" upside down on the wall with full thong and ass cheeks hanging out is also mind blowing..... Young people's values and morals have gone to shit, and because of it, these assaults are occurring at an alarming rate.

Careful. By mentioning what you see with your own eyes on a regular basis you're probably going to be accused of all sorts of heinous character flaws.