College Football Week 12 discussion

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I said this in last week's thread...there is a reason why the NCAA and the Board of Trustee's (along with former PSU President Erikson) is fighting to keep these emails private and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Penn State SHOULD HAVE gotten the death penalty.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by panerd

It's a home and home with mizzous home game in Kansas City. It would be like Clemson decided to play their end of a home and home in Charleston. It's hard to take your SEC rants seriously when you don't understand what you are talking about half the time.

Sigh...

It was primarily intended as a joke towards Mizzou.
But if you want to go the "you dont know what you are talking about" go have a gander at the cotract and the guarantee money and the gate split and explain how its a "home"...and much like the UGA example cited above while they call it their home it will go in the records and be touted as a neutral site victory.

Go the Clemson Auburn route.
G1 - Auburn
G2 - Clemson
Ruber game - Atlanta.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Penn State SHOULD HAVE gotten the death penalty.

Whatever you say...I'm sure you know ALL the facts in the case...from now on I'll defer to you.

[Butter]

I'd love to actually hear ALL the facts in the case that point to something other than a wild lack of institutional control where people literally turned the other way while a coach used his influence and power to molest children over more than a decade.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't particularly believe that deserves the death penalty. Then again, I'm no rocket scientist .

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I'd love to actually hear ALL the facts in the case that point to something other than a wild lack of institutional control where people literally turned the other way while a coach used his influence and power to molest children over more than a decade.

You apparently know all so what's the use of arguing with you?

So why is the NCAA afraid of these emails being release? If what you say is true (and it very well might be)...why are they so scared? Why are they fighting tooth and nail in court for these not to be released and why are the Board of Trustees at the University fighting to keep their emails about the case confidential?

I will not argue with you that there was a coverup...but why not just let all the facts come out? IMO, the people fighting to keep this a secret did something wrong also and are trying to pin on someone else.

[Logan]

The NCAA and Freeh and his staff conversing, whether it is monthly, weekly, or daily isn't an issue at all and it doesn't mean it isn't an independent investigation. They needed to be in cooperation because the report was always intended on being a large part of what the NCAA was going to use when it came to sanctions. No one wanted a report dropped on the NCAAs desk at the end, the NCAA to review it and say "this isn't what we wanted, time to start over." I thought this was well known at the time so it's surprising to me that this is "news" (well, not actually surprising...when you have emails to read, it's going to be news regardless).

As for the issue of independence...when you want an independent investigation, the independence you're seeking is between the party doing the investigating and the party being investigated. You don't want Freeh (or whoever) being conflicted over his/their own ties to the school/program and having that impact the investigation. This is different from when the NFL announced they were going to conduct an independent investigation of Goodell and the Ray Rice case, because they hired a firm who had previous ties to the league. There's your issue of a potential lack of independence between the investigating and investigated parties (although personally, it seems like every major firm they could choose could be found to have some ties to the league, so it's a matter of degree).

The only time you would be worried about any interactions between Freeh and the NCAA, and independence being violated, is if the NCAA previously conducted their own investigation which had some sort of problem that was raised, and could then coerce or steer Freeh to have his investigation end up with the same or similar findings.

As to your question about why the NCAA is fighting the release of those emails...it's because they can, and it's because they likely know that any email that is written without 100% consciousness of the potential for it to be caught under a subpoena could be interpreted to sound bad for them. Think about every email you've ever written at work being released without full context.

Up until about two months ago, I was a banking regulator that was involved in a lot of what could be considered "investigations" with some leading to enforcement actions. While I didn't read all the emails released, very little surprised me from what I read that were supposedly the most controversial. Yes, saying they hoped they would call their bluff was stupid, no question. But you write everything with what you can sell, both to your supervisors and with what you could get the investigated party to sign off on. It involves a lot of careful wording and a lot of back and forth. I can't even imagine how many emails I have lying around somewhere that have me and four others dissecting word choices and saying something like "we can't say that, it sounds like we don't know what the hell we're doing". I'm sure every lawyer would agree.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I will not argue with you that there was a coverup...but why not just let all the facts come out? IMO, the people fighting to keep this a secret did something wrong also and are trying to pin on someone else.

Even if the NCAA did something wrong, it doesn't mean Penn State did not deserve their punishment. I already feel that it's bullshit that they've had their scholarship reductions rolled back and the bowl ban lifted.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Even if the NCAA did something wrong, it doesn't mean Penn State did not deserve their punishment. I already feel that it's bullshit that they've had their scholarship reductions rolled back and the bowl ban lifted.

I'm confused why Penn State should be punished over a criminal issue that had nothing to do with being competitive? Sandusky and those that protected him should've been fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I'm not sure I see why the NCAA was involved at all?

It seems to me you're punishing the kids for the crimes of adults that had nothing to do with the game.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It seems to me you're punishing the kids for the crimes of adults that had nothing to do with the game.

The NCAA does this all the time if a school breaks the rules and then hands down the punishment to the current team. I can see why they did it as doing nothing might give the impression that they were okay with it.

[ISiddiqui]

But doesn't the NCAA usually do it when there may be a competitive advantage, such as in the paying of players? Therefore, the kids get punished, but they also benefited from the rulebreaking.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Penn State SHOULD HAVE gotten the death penalty.

Nah.

Just takes someone willing to blindly fling that around without anything remotely close to cause.

I couldn't stand Paterno, don't like Penn State much ... but they got perhaps the worst railroad job in sports history afaic.

edit to add: Aside from Duke lacrosse

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Matthean

The NCAA does this all the time if a school breaks the rules and then hands down the punishment to the current team. I can see why they did it as doing nothing might give the impression that they were okay with it.

But couldn't they just ban the coaches and other athletic department employees involved from participating in NCAA sanctioned events? Essentially like they did with the 'show cause' penalty they gave Jim Tressel (iirc)?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I'm confused why Penn State should be punished over a criminal issue that had nothing to do with being competitive? Sandusky and those that protected him should've been fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I'm not sure I see why the NCAA was involved at all?

It seems to me you're punishing the kids for the crimes of adults that had nothing to do with the game.

Keeping secret the actions of a pedophile who's fucking kids on site definitely is a competitive issue. Everyone wanted to make sure it didn't get out and hurt the program.

[Butter]

The kids could've transferred out and played elsewhere if Penn State had received the death penalty. As it is, they did allow kids to transfer out for the first year with no penalty, and all new recruits knew what they were getting into. The punishment is really more for the university itself and also affects the fans.

The fans who continue to act like all this is total bullshit and everyone is being supremely unfair to them... and now apparently are the subject of a wide-ranging conspiracy to... I don't know, take the wins record away from JoePa or some such ridiculous nonsense. All I have to say to them is: fuck you and your program.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But doesn't the NCAA usually do it when there may be a competitive advantage, such as in the paying of players? Therefore, the kids get punished, but they also benefited from the rulebreaking.

Why do you think Penn State covered up the incident if there wasn't a competitive advantage in keeping that from coming out?

[cartman]

If Sandusky had done all of his horrible acts at home, away from campus, not on any team sponsored trips, with nothing at all to tie them to Penn State other than his being an employee, then yeah, there is a case to be made that the Nittany Lions shouldn't have been punished. But that isn't the case.

[nol]

For an FSU Football Player, a Hit-and-Run Becomes Traffic Tickets

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Why do you think Penn State covered up the incident if there wasn't a competitive advantage in keeping that from coming out?

That's stretching things. That means the hush-hush of any news of administration wrongdoings, for example an assistant coach having a DUI, is considered a competitive advantage and deserves sanctions against the school.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's stretching things. That means the hush-hush of any news of administration wrongdoings, for example an assistant coach having a DUI, is considered a competitive advantage and deserves sanctions against the school.

Well one difference here is that the coach actually got the DUI. (I think it would be hard to keep this secret.) If the university bought off law enforcement or exerted influence in any way to prevent him from being charged for the DUI, then yes I'd say that would deserve sanctions.

[ISiddiqui]

Personally I think its crazy for the NCAA to basically enforce criminal penalties. That's what we have law enforcement for.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by nol

For an FSU Football Player, a Hit-and-Run Becomes Traffic Tickets

My parents are FSU alums and big fans, but the pattern of incidents involving players getting swept under the rug is horrible. Fisher and team administrators in charge of these things need to go. They clearly have a win at all costs mentality.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Personally I think its crazy for the NCAA to basically enforce criminal penalties. That's what we have law enforcement for.

So criminal offenses can't have civil repercussions?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Personally I think its crazy for the NCAA to basically enforce criminal penalties. That's what we have law enforcement for.

And this is the argument I still never get. Why can't we have both? The NCAA handing down sanctions for a cover up doesn't preclude law enforcement from also taking action.

I think the NCAA definitely has an interest in making sure their member schools don't impede criminal investigations in an attempt to avoid negative publicity that will hurt recruiting.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And this is the argument I still never get. Why can't we have both? The NCAA handing down sanctions for a cover up doesn't preclude law enforcement from also taking action.

I think the NCAA definitely has an interest in making sure their member schools don't impede criminal investigations in an attempt to avoid negative publicity that will hurt recruiting.

Because this sounds way to much like the Roger Goodell school of moral policing. I don't want an NCAA that gets this involved. Deal with recruiting issues, skirting competition rules through paying players (up until that's allowed) and things of that nature. Allow anything greater to be handled by the authorities.

So, I was perfectly fine with the NCAA loosening some of their penalties on Penn State - I think they realized they got caught up in the moment and put a little too much on the school. And it isn't like I have any special love for PSU.

[cartman]

CPJ must have had a good halftime speech

[Easy Mac]

6 and a half minutes left in the third quarter of Furman vs. Wofford. Neither team has an incompletion.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

6 and a half minutes left in the third quarter of Furman vs. Wofford. Neither team has an incompletion.

Wofford throws an incomplete pass to end the third quarter.

[CU Tiger]

Deshaun Watson tears ACL/MCL on the 3rd drive of his return from a broken hand. This after breaking his collar bone in the Spring game

Incredible talent that seems to be snake bit.

Cant beat a quality team with Stoudt at QB.

Got pushed in the back by an over zealous GT fan who just wanted to yell "How you like them apples in my face." In one of the more mature moments in my life I realized how this would end up and simply walked out of the stadium....I'll finish this in the car.

[Recoil]

Thanks, Stoudt.

I can't wait to read Tigernet after the game

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Recoil

Thanks, Stoudt.

I can't wait to read Tigernet after the game

Ha.
There are some things I refuse to do. Ever visit tigernet is one of those things.
Every fan base has there cringe worthy embarrassments...Clemson just groups all theirs together on a free public access board.

[CU Tiger]

I was very nervous about this one going in but I felt like as long as DW4 was in at QB Clemson could out score GT.

Unfortunately without DW4 we have no offense Clemson is out of bullets.

[Easy Mac]

Furman's true freshman qb will likely finish the game 15-15 for 305 and 2 TDs.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

6 and a half minutes left in the third quarter of Furman vs. Wofford. Neither team has an incompletion.

Must be using the Madden engine!

[digamma]

Sorry about Watson but you weren't winning today.

Go Jackets.

[CU Tiger]

Good win for the Jackets.

I'm not going to argue but a few facts.
Watson ended the game as the leading passer and 2nd leading rusher despite playing just the first 2.5 drives.

GT was also held to season lows in yards and rushing yards today by Clemson if I am not mistaken.

I'm not going to be a sore sport and cry because injuries are part of the game and GT overcame an injury to their starting HB as well.

Its a shame that we have ourselves in this situation at QB because of recruiting mistakes and misses.

Congrats to the resident Jacket fans. No doubt they railed the Tigers today.

[cartman]

Beamer-ball pulled a bone headed move there. Why on earth do you try the fake?

[Recoil]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I was very nervous about this one going in but I felt like as long as DW4 was in at QB Clemson could out score GT.

Unfortunately without DW4 we have no offense Clemson is out of bullets.

I wasn't giving GT much of a chance against Watson. After the first few drives, it was apparent he was going to give Tech's D fits. Also, that CU defense was living up to their hype in the first quarter.

I cannot believe Stoudt was the starter going into the season. Dabo has grown on me over the years, but that's pretty unforgivable.

The thing that stood out the most to me was how each team reacted to their big injuries. GT rallied around Snoddy and it looked like CU mailed it in after Watson went down.

[digamma]

It would have been a different game I'm sure, but Tech tackled better today than they have all season even with Watson in. Justin Thomas is a gamer and threw to Smelter at will. There would have also been more rushing yards if not for the two pick sixes. I mean we punted once.

It was just our day. Not bad for an afterthought, I guess.

I sincerely hope Watson recovers well.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Recoil

The thing that stood out the most to me was how each team reacted to their big injuries. GT rallied around Snoddy and it looked like CU mailed it in after Watson went down.

I said the same thing.

The D has rallied around the "get through until DW4 comes back" for several weeks. Once he went down it was "here we go again"...and felt like the energy was sucked off the sideline.


Contrast GT had a "win one for our fallen brother" rally.

[bob]

I can't imagine any Tech fans saw that coming. Injured QB and pick 6s notwithstanding.

Sorry about your experience with Tech fans. Other Tech fans are the thing I hate most about being a Tech fan. I saw an adult Tech fan screaming at a 10ish year old ND fan back when Brady Quinn led ND to a win over Tech.

I refuse to believe in Tech. UGA will rail us again.

[digamma]

Can VPI just forfeit? They are trying to give Duke this game. Come on Hokies. Hold.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by bob

I can't imagine any Tech fans saw that coming. Injured QB and pick 6s notwithstanding.

Sorry about your experience with Tech fans. Other Tech fans are the thing I hate most about being a Tech fan. I saw an adult Tech fan screaming at a 10ish year old ND fan back when Brady Quinn led ND to a win over Tech.

I refuse to believe in Tech. UGA will rail us again.

Believe in Justin Thomas. He will leave GT with a winning record against UGA.

[Lathum]

I have a feeling we are going to upset Arizona today

[bob]

You don't want me to truly believe. I'd bet Tech's record in big games in which I "believed" is about 2 and lifetime*.

* - Lifetime being since 1995, since that's when I really started being a fan.

[Easy Mac]

so i guess muschamp is now fired

[cartman]

TCU didn't get the memo about this being a trap game

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

TCU didn't get the memo about this being a trap game

They certainly are capable of putting up 50 in the second half but a close win against KU probably drops you from the top 4.

[General Mike]

Sorry Kodos.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

6 and a half minutes left in the third quarter of Furman vs. Wofford. Neither team has an incompletion.

wow that's a pretty crazy stat