Pilots overshoot destination by 150 miles

[Chubby]

I must have missed all the arrests every time some teenager called a cop a pig...

[jeff061]

A cop can't literally be a pig. A pilot can literally be drunk. One of them is potentially a legal issue. The other is not.

Hoping that wasn't a serious analogy?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add because you were replying while I was replying


I can almost guarantee that you don't mean that like it sounds. I would certainly hope that there's still enough professionalism left among pilots that their performance would not be impacted by anybody's jokes no matter how lame. After all, you've got your life in your hands too (unless there's parachutes up there I'm not familiar with), so that's not exactly any advantage for you. And FTR, I've made a similar joke to a surgeon who replied with a witty comeback of his own, so that probably doesn't apply here either. Come to think of it, I've cracked along similar lines with more than one tax accountant to, each one dealt with it no problem

As much as I advised against taking a punitive approach earlier, I MUCH more strongly & seriously suggest not EVER using that same line about "lives in hands" you used here in front of any passengers, at least not in that context. To be frank, it sounds like a threat to me & I'm sitting in the safety of my basement, not about to get on a plane with you.

I think that you are taking the whole thing the wrong way. Professionalism is exactly why I was upset in the first place. We take it as seriously as that. It isn't a threat at all. Neither was the first statement, but to accuse me of something that would be unprofessional is insulting to me.

Things have changed so much since 9/11. Just like the TSA has rules about joking because of 9/11, we have similar rules because of previous incidents. We are splitting hairs on this.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Just wondering, are there extensive background checks performed on pilots?

Yes, if you have a felony you cannot even work at an airport.

As far as pilots go, we are subjected to random drug tests as well as an FBI background check. Our work history has to be updated to 10 years. We also have to pass an annual or semi-annual physical. Certain illnesses can ground pilots, some for good. Mental illnesses are out of the question.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I think that you are taking the whole thing the wrong way. Professionalism is exactly why I was upset in the first place. We take it as seriously as that. It isn't a threat at all. Neither was the first statement, but to accuse me of something that would be unprofessional is insulting to me.

Things have changed so much since 9/11. Just like the TSA has rules about joking because of 9/11, we have similar rules because of previous incidents. We are splitting hairs on this.

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

It is if it turns out the pilot has been at the bar, they don't check it, there is an incident and that ignored accusation comes to light.

Better safe than sorry in this litigious society.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone did that to any pilot out there before getting on and if it was within an earshot of other passengers nobody would be going anywhere. It's just a fact. That is just the way the system is set up. We want to get where we are going just as badly as you do. Trust me, the amount of paperwork to go through isn't worth it. That's just the reality of the situation. Too many pilots have gotten caught, and that is precisely why it is taken seriously. Why take that chance?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Yet to threatening to delay a flight because somebody yells "Hey pilot get out of the bar we're taking off soon" ISN'T unprofessional??? mmmmmkay

Well, considering that PilotMan said this earlier

Originally Posted by PilotMan

In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to. Now, when is it humor or not? That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for.

It sounds more like it'd be following company policy in that situation.

[Kodos]

To be fair, I think JiMG is more sensitive than 99% of the population to perceived threats. Not saying that to be mean. Just a conclusion I've drawn from posts on the forum. I didn't take anything PilotMan said in a remotely threatening way. He was just stating what he would have to do if there seemed to be a serious suggestion that one of the pilots was drunk.

[Chubby]

now hilarity would ensue when somebody yells something about a flight they aren't on just to get it delayed

[stevew]

good strategy move for the Amazing Race maybe.

[SnowMan]

I liken this to saying you have a bomb to the TSA guys. You know you don't, the TSA can pretty much assure that you don't, but what about everyone else standing around that heard you? You make some crack about the pilot smelling of booze or being drunk, and some crazy lady next to you is gonna freak out and write letters or whatever. Then the crew gets to dance on their boss's carpet. The reaction from pilots, and often companies, is to cover their asses.

Never underestimate the general population's stupidity once they walk through the airport doors. I swear there's some kind of IQ zapper built into them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

He was just stating what he would have to do if there seemed to be a serious suggestion that one of the pilots was drunk.

While raising the distinct possibility some pilot would take the same action if someone cracked wise on the subject, clearly not a "serious suggestion".

Also, going back to this quote & its subsequent mention later

In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to.

Then you'd never get off the ground, because I'd guarandamntee someone has some degree of suspicion about the flight readiness (whether alcohol related, sleep related, skill related, whatever) of the pilot every time a plane is boarded. So what seems to be the difference here is whether anyone verbalizes it or not. Maybe we are to the point of splitting hairs here, but the deeper this goes the more disturbing what I'm hearing/learning becomes.

Happily for everyone thought I'm in that number who hasn't been on a plane in a good while & not expecting to be on one anytime soon so the actual impact on either of us is pretty much nil beyond conversation.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

While raising the distinct possibility some pilot would take the same action if someone cracked wise on the subject, clearly not a "serious suggestion".

Ill let my fellow pilot add this here:

I liken this to saying you have a bomb to the TSA guys. You know you don't, the TSA can pretty much assure that you don't, but what about everyone else standing around that heard you? You make some crack about the pilot smelling of booze or being drunk, and some crazy lady next to you is gonna freak out and write letters or whatever. Then the crew gets to dance on their boss's carpet. The reaction from pilots, and often companies, is to cover their asses.

Also, going back to this quote & its subsequent mention later

Then you'd never get off the ground, because I'd guarandamntee someone has some degree of suspicion about the flight readiness (whether alcohol related, sleep related, skill related, whatever) of the pilot every time a plane is boarded. So what seems to be the difference here is whether anyone verbalizes it or not. Maybe we are to the point of splitting hairs here, but the deeper this goes the more disturbing what I'm hearing/learning becomes.

You have every right not to fly on board the airplane if you are so concerned. If you have concerns that don't raise them, that is not my problem. Our entire business is predicated on everyone doing their job. Ramp, maintenance, ATC, fellow pilots, and so on. If someone has concerns that one facet of that operation isn't up to snuff the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

You are on the verge of sounding like a conspiracy theorist about the whole process. Perhaps you are better off not having to deal with it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

If someone has concerns that one facet of that operation isn't up to snuff the whole thing comes to a screeching halt.

Do you honestly seriously believe that the general public doesn't have concerns about a variety of things when they fly? That we do so because there's some sort of uber level of confidence about the people involved on the operations end?

Well fuck me, I always figured it was because the convenience outweighed the risks, not because no one thought there were risks & legitimate concerns.

Look, full disclosure or whatever, there a pilot for one of the major carriers that's a pretty decent friend of mine. I'd trust him with my life in virtually all situations, not just flying a plane. Combat veteran, calm, cool, collected, etc etc etc. Him I trust -- I know him, what he's capable of, how he deals with stress, etc etc. Some random dude I don't know? Let's say that I find the notion of not being concerned (as opposed to balancing those concerns vs perceived benefits) as a completely foreign concept. And I really believe the only unusual thing about that is that I'm articulating those concerns here, not that they exist.

If you're wearing wings, I figure you've demonstrated technical proficiency in flying aircraft. I figure you've proven an ability to navigate the rapids of personnel change in the airline industry. I even figure that you're not a consistent major fuck up, otherwise you'd be an unfortunate statistic already. But that's different than me not having a degree of concern about whether you've had enough sleep, whether you've been drinking, whether your mind is focused on the task at hand vs some personal issue, etc.

You're not machined parts, you're human best I can figure. You're subject to the same shit that occurs in every other profession, the difference being that if you fail people can die, if a clerk on the register at Kroger fucks up I either get overcharged or undercharged. That's why I wonder about your deal (the "royal you", not "you you") and don't worry much about hers.

And we haven't even touched on the basic human nature that causes some people to respond to fear with humor, whistling past the graveyard so to speak. You can shut down every plane on earth with whatever administrative action you want, you still aren't going to eliminate that response, it's a coping mechanism & it's one that isn't particularly uncommon.

[Denial Of Freedom]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Look, full disclosure or whatever, there a pilot for one of the major carriers that's a pretty decent friend of mine. I'd trust him with my life in virtually all situations, not just flying a plane. Combat veteran, calm, cool, collected, etc etc etc. Him I trust -- I know him, what he's capable of, how he deals with stress, etc etc. Some random dude I don't know? Let's say that I find the notion of not being concerned (as opposed to balancing those concerns vs perceived benefits) as a completely foreign concept. And I really believe the only unusual thing about that is that I'm articulating those concerns here, not that they exist.

This to me just sticks out. While it is a random person, they are being compensated for their work, which tends to make it safer as they do not want to lose their job. Meanwhile your most probable alternative to flying is to drive somewhere. My question is would you rather trust someone getting paid to do something and that in almost all cases generally wants things to go safely or some random person on the road that could care less about your safety and causes you to be in an accident? I'm glad pilots can stop everything if need be to make things safe, I which we could control our primary method of transportation like this.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Do you honestly seriously believe that the general public doesn't have concerns about a variety of things when they fly? That we do so because there's some sort of uber level of confidence about the people involved on the operations end?

Well fuck me, I always figured it was because the convenience outweighed the risks, not because no one thought there were risks & legitimate concerns.

If you're wearing wings, I figure you've demonstrated technical proficiency in flying aircraft. I figure you've proven an ability to navigate the rapids of personnel change in the airline industry. I even figure that you're not a consistent major fuck up, otherwise you'd be an unfortunate statistic already. But that's different than me not having a degree of concern about whether you've had enough sleep, whether you've been drinking, whether your mind is focused on the task at hand vs some personal issue, etc.

So what should we do to put your mind at ease? I can't think of anything that would satisfy you. How do I know that the janitor at my kids school isn't a child predator that's never been caught. I should bring that up and go around accusing him until we really know for sure. After all, I have a degree of concern for the safety of my kids. Where does it end?

You're not machined parts, you're human best I can figure. You're subject to the same shit that occurs in every other profession, the difference being that if you fail people can die, if a clerk on the register at Kroger fucks up I either get overcharged or undercharged. That's why I wonder about your deal (the "royal you", not "you you") and don't worry much about hers.

And we haven't even touched on the basic human nature that causes some people to respond to fear with humor, whistling past the graveyard so to speak. You can shut down every plane on earth with whatever administrative action you want, you still aren't going to eliminate that response, it's a coping mechanism & it's one that isn't particularly uncommon.

So if I understand you correctly we are boiling this down to:

People are afraid to fly, but they are willing to do so for the convenience. They get on planes with fears and concerns for their safety, they sit quietly hoping that the ease of their mode of transport will get them where they need to go. That their pilot wont fuck up today or that they didn't just kiss their kids goodbye for the last time. That in order to address this overpowering fear they may resort to humor, which in turn will get them thrown off of said plane for their ill-timed prose.

We are, to the best of the training in this industry, like machined parts. We work on standards, precision, decision making. We strive for perfection, and we know the breadth and limits of our power, and abilities. We are humans, mistakes do get made, and when we make those mistakes sometimes people get hurt. And when we do make those mistakes, our livelyhood is in jeopardy. So again, we work to make those as few as possible. We have multiple saftey nets, checks, cross checks, and so on to aid us. You shouldn't need to worry about "us". We are there to make sure we all get where we are supposed to be going.

As humans we have obstacles to overcome. We need sleep, food, love, security. "Did that pilot get his lovin' last night? 'Cause if he didn't he may not be safe." But now you are opening an entire philosophical line of questions that I am not going to go into. That has more to do with Maslow and your individual issues than anything I can help with, perhaps EF27 can help. I only have a BS in Psych.