FOF 6.3 Released (Use this thread to discuss the patch, changes, impressions, etc.)

[sidthelid]

What is the TV station ia aid of in the preview screen,

I am also seing very little goaline on 1st and 10 which i think changes the game so much for the better

[Sef0r]

Why take a knee then try to pass on the next play.

Chicago: Pro formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. Russell and Fisher are blitzing.
1-10-CHI25 (2Q: 00:36) Calvin Dick dropped to one knee for -1 yards.

Chicago: Weak formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass. Russell is blitzing.
2-11-CHI24 (2Q: 00:09) Calvin Dick pass was blocked at the line, intended for TE Jerald Grusendorf. OLB Earnest Russell blocked the pass. The quarterback threw away from the double coverage.

[Ben E Lou]

C4, that's been there a long time. Not new to 6.3 by a long stretch.


All, just thought of another sniff test. I'm going to re-run the most recent FOWL season in 6.3 a few times with the same game plans and whatnot to see how league-wide stats might have changed.

[Bako]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

All, just thought of another sniff test. I'm going to re-run the most recent FOWL season in 6.3 a few times with the same game plans and whatnot to see how league-wide stats might have changed.

I am very interested to see the results of this Ben. Go Cowboys!!!

[FBPro]

How do I get the custom logos to work again?

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. The most obvious shift is that Dallas, a team built on a running game and defense, improved from 10-6 to averaging 13.5 wins. Nice. League-wide QB rating drops from 81.7 to 76.2

[SlyBelle1]

Is anybody else seeing RB's catching too many balls? In my last season, it seemed like half of the top 20 receivers were running backs. Adrian Peterson was the leading receiver with over a 100 catches. Looking at this year's real season, the highest RB ranked (Tim Hightower) is ranked 36th.

I play using the Steelers and my leading receiver was my RB, Mendenhall.

[SlyBelle1]

I have attached a sample screenshot of another season. All the seasons I have simmed so far are similar, with a ton of RBs catching balls. RBs circled in Blue.

As you'll see, roughly 14 of the 36 listed receivers are RBs. Seems very excessive to me.

[TheMeat]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

All, just thought of another sniff test. I'm going to re-run the most recent FOWL season in 6.3 a few times with the same game plans and whatnot to see how league-wide stats might have changed.

Very interesting indeed

[Young Drachma]

Thanks for the update, Jim.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Is anybody else seeing RB's catching too many balls? In my last season, it seemed like half of the top 20 receivers were running backs. Adrian Peterson was the leading receiver with over a 100 catches. Looking at this year's real season, the highest RB ranked (Tim Hightower) is ranked 36th.

I play using the Steelers and my leading receiver was my RB, Mendenhall.

I'm pretty sure this is a function of the shorter-passing Rex game plans. I'm seeing similar results for AI in SP, but when I re-ran the FOWL season, for example, it was nothing like that. The top RB had 74 catches, next 68, third 63. 18 of the top 20 guys in catches were WRs, then the one RB and one TE filled out the top 20. If it's a big deal to you in SP, I'd report it to support AT solecismic DOT com.

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I'm pretty sure this is a function of the shorter-passing Rex game plans. I'm seeing similar results for AI in SP, but when I re-ran the FOWL season, for example, it was nothing like that. The top RB had 74 catches, next 68, third 63. 18 of the top 20 guys in catches were WRs, then the one RB and one TE filled out the top 20. If it's a big deal to you in SP, I'd report it to support AT solecismic DOT com.

Ben, didn't know about the kneel then try and pass play...my bad.

Now, any chance that we (the FOWL GMs) can see the results of the sims you ran? I would like to know what adjustments, if any, I will need to make to the gameplan I used in the previous season.

[Ben E Lou]

I didn't track anything besides Dallas (because of their team makeup) and league-wide QB rating. I've closed the last sim I ran, too.

Speculation based on my SP play so far: cohesion may be more important. I'll be watching that.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

C4, that's been there a long time. Not new to 6.3 by a long stretch.

Sure, but the list of fixes actually has the end of first half play-calling logic on it.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Is anybody else seeing RB's catching too many balls? In my last season, it seemed like half of the top 20 receivers were running backs. Adrian Peterson was the leading receiver with over a 100 catches. Looking at this year's real season, the highest RB ranked (Tim Hightower) is ranked 36th.

I play using the Steelers and my leading receiver was my RB, Mendenhall.

That's really not new to 6.3. In 6.2, if there are a lot of good receiving RBs, you'll notice a lot of RBs in the 50-75 catch area.

As Ben pointed out, if the AI is calling more shorter passing in 6.3, you should expect the number of RBs in the 50-75 catches area to improve.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Sure, but the list of fixes actually has the end of first half play-calling logic on it.

Right, but given the specific wording...

Another attempt to improve the field-goal and play-calling logic at the end of the first half, particularly when your team has the lead.

...I don't have any reason to believe this is going after the oft-mentioned (by Jim) fact that each play is an individual event. That fix doesn't seem like it would be anything that big to change the fundamental way it works of examining each play situation individually. I'm guessing that the fix is mainly for this:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou, in an email to Solecismic Support on 5/4/2009

END OF FIRST HALF: RUNNING WITH LEAD
If a team has a lead and has the ball with less than 2 minutes to play in the first half in the opponent's red zone, they go to a run-only offense, even in situations where they should clearly be trying to throw it into the end zone at least once. I don't think I've ever, not one single time, seen a team with the lead throw a pass in the red zone with less than 2 minutes to play in the first half.

A few examples:

Lowcountry: I formation, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 3-deep zone coverage, expecting the run.
2-10-CHV37 (2Q: 00:39) Lionel Johnstone pass completed to WR Shawn VanCleave for 23 yards. Tackled by OLB Leslie Seau. VanCleave gained 17 yards after the catch. Lowcountry called a time out. Lowcountry: Weak formation with three wide receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
1-10-CHV14 (2Q: 00:29) Brad Patterson ran outside the right tackle for 4 yards. Tackled by S Thomas Hastings. Lowcountry called a time out. Lowcountry: Single-Back formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
2-6-CHV10 (2Q: 00:22) Wade Irwin ran inside the right tackle for 3 yards. Tackled by OLB Rod Evans. Lowcountry called a time out. 3-3-CHV07 (2Q: 00:13) Scottie Wellstone attempted a 24 yard field goal and succeeded. Lowcountry 17, Charlottesville 10 (2Q: 00:07) Scottie Wellstone kicked off 69 yards from the LWC30. Carl Christian returned the ball 23 yards to the CHV24. Tackled by Don Bryant.


Lowcountry: Weak formation with three wide receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-4-RAL12 (2Q: 01:33) Brad Patterson ran inside the right guard for -3 yards. Tackled by DT Burt Weir. Lowcountry: Weak formation with three wide receivers, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-7-RAL15 (2Q: 00:50) Wade Irwin ran inside the right guard for 1 yard. Tackled by DT Melvin Franz, assisted by S Winfred Kerr. (2Q: 00:50) Lowcountry called a time out. 4-6-RAL14 (2Q: 00:42) Scottie Wellstone attempted a 31 yard field goal and succeeded. Lowcountry 17, Raleigh 7

(At least it works this time...)
Lowcountry: Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-HRS28 (2Q: 01:26) Lionel Johnstone pass completed to WR Kelvin Moe for 16 yards. Tackled by CB C.J. Aleinkoff. The receiver ran his route right over the middle of the field. Moe gained 4 yards after the catch. Lowcountry: Pro formation with two tight ends, strength is right. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep man-to-man coverage, expecting the run.
1-10-HRS12 (2Q: 00:43) Wade Irwin ran inside the left tackle for 3 yards. Tackled by OLB Darryl Rhodes. PENALTY: Hampton Roads was called for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Lowcountry: Weak formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run. Francis is blitzing.
1-5-HRS05 (2Q: 00:37) Brad Patterson ran around right end for 1 yard. Tackled by CB C.J. Aleinkoff, assisted by DE Jerome Davidson. The ball was fumbled and recovered by LWC Earnest Kapp to the HRS04. (2Q: 00:37) Lowcountry called a time out. Lowcountry: Weak formation with two tight ends, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the run.
2-4-HRS04 (2Q: 00:25) Wade Irwin ran around left end for 4 yards and a TOUCHDOWN! Key block delivered by Earnest Kapp. Kapp ran over Dana McDonald to set up the play. Lowcountry 23, Hampton Roads 7 (2Q: 00:25) Extra point by Scottie Wellstone was good. Lowcountry 24, Hampton Roads 7

Tucker: Single-Back formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with nickel personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, expecting the pass.
1-10-BTH12 (2Q: 00:47) Earnest Talley ran around the left tackle for 3 yards and was forced out of bounds. Tackled by DT Leo Harvey. Tucker: Pro formation, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with goal-line personnel and 2-deep bump-and-run coverage, keying aggressively on the run.
2-7-BTH09 (2Q: 00:38) Jermaine Bachechi ran outside the right tackle for 2 yards. Tackled by OLB Johnnie Budd, assisted by S Perry Kemp. Tucker called a time out. Tucker: Single-Back formation with trips receivers, strength is left. The defense is in a 43 with dime personnel and 4-deep zone coverage, keying aggressively on the pass.
3-5-BTH07 (2Q: 00:30) Jermaine Bachechi ran inside the left guard for 4 yards. Tackled by S Pat Fontenot. Tucker called a time out. 4-1-BTH03 (2Q: 00:19) Marc Salter attempted a 20 yard field goal and succeeded. Tucker 17, Bethlehem 7

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I didn't track anything besides Dallas (because of their team makeup) and league-wide QB rating. I've closed the last sim I ran, too.

Speculation based on my SP play so far: cohesion may be more important. I'll be watching that.

I ran a test this morning funnily enough, after our chat over at the vNFL. Only brief, and hardly scientific, but just for my own interest.

I ran the same season 5 times with a standard set of rosters, and a standard set-up. No injuries etc. I then swopped Peyton Manning to the Patriots and Tom Brady to the Colts.

Colts passing cohesion was 1st, Patriots was 5th. After the trade the Colts went to 15th, and the Patriots to 23rd.

No obvious differences. Manning took the Pats to 16-0 one year, 8.80 Avg A and a 119.4 rating, only to be beaten by Brady and the Colts in the playoffs. Colts went on to win the title

Anyhow, I saw no obvious difference in performance in terms of win-loss, QB rating or anything for that matter, from the control. I will do a more in depth scientific study when I get time. Initial impression though is that cohesion still means very little. Its not scratching the paint work of the overall equation.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I'm pretty sure this is a function of the shorter-passing Rex game plans. I'm seeing similar results for AI in SP, but when I re-ran the FOWL season, for example, it was nothing like that. The top RB had 74 catches, next 68, third 63. 18 of the top 20 guys in catches were WRs, then the one RB and one TE filled out the top 20. If it's a big deal to you in SP, I'd report it to support AT solecismic DOT com.

Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and report it at the support site, but guessing not much will be done. I know I might be in the minority, but this seems way to excessive for my liking. I don't mind a shorter passing game, but at the same time I don't think it should make a ton of RBs better then actual WRs. For me personally, kind of ruins the experience.

Thanks.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

I don't think it should make a ton of RBs better then actual WRs

Looking at those stats you posted, most of them aren't better. If anything, I suspect many of them are actually hurting their team by getting so many catches.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola...but I do think I get what you're trying to say.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Dola...but I do think I get what you're trying to say.

Thanks. Your right they might not be a better actual receiver, but their stats are making them seem that way

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Initial impression though is that cohesion still means very little. Its not scratching the paint work of the overall equation.

Gotcha....formations maybe?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Right, but given the specific wording...



...I don't have any reason to believe this is going after the oft-mentioned (by Jim) fact that each play is an individual event. That fix doesn't seem like it would be anything that big to change the fundamental way it works of examining each play situation individually. I'm guessing that the fix is mainly for this:

I'm not sure I agree here. There were three issues with the end of first half logic:
* teams running out the clock when they are in position to score
* related to that, teams are calling time outs where the other team should be calling the time out
* the knee drop, play on sequences

Maybe I'm missing something, but those three all seem related to me.

[Ben E Lou]

hmmm...I never saw #1 and #2 on your list. Sometimes teams would get too close to the edge and therefore would try to run another play rather than kick the FG, but that's not really what it sounds like you're saying in #1. #3 really makes complete sense if each play is an individual decision.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Heh. The most obvious shift is that Dallas, a team built on a running game and defense, improved from 10-6 to averaging 13.5 wins. Nice. League-wide QB rating drops from 81.7 to 76.2

Damn! How good would my (early FOWL) JAX teams have been with 6.3?

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and report it at the support site, but guessing not much will be done. I know I might be in the minority, but this seems way to excessive for my liking. I don't mind a shorter passing game, but at the same time I don't think it should make a ton of RBs better then actual WRs. For me personally, kind of ruins the experience.

Thanks.

Without doing much investigation...could it be that in your tests (assuming injuries are off) that the RBs don't leave the field...ever? I mean, it's a rarity in the NFL that one RB plays every snap anymore so maybe we should be looking at the total number of tosses to a back in the NFL (or total per team) before we get too concerned about sniff test results.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Without doing much investigation...could it be that in your tests (assuming injuries are off) that the RBs don't leave the field...ever? I mean, it's a rarity in the NFL that one RB plays every snap anymore so maybe we should be looking at the total number of tosses to a back in the NFL (or total per team) before we get too concerned about sniff test results.

To the best of my knowledge my injuries are turned on. I wish this was just a one time thing, but if you sim a year, you'll see it happens everytime.

[SlyBelle1]

Just for grins, I simmed a year with max injuries turned on and no difference. RBs still are too excessive so I don't think it has anything to do with injury setting.

[SlyBelle1]

What I'm now wondering is the long term effects of this RB issue. Won't it in theory take away opportunities from the WRs too much? How will WR skills increase? Will RBs make the hall of fame because of these numbers? Will less WRs make the hall of fame because not enough opportunities? Will RBs be the career leaders in receiving? Will RBs own receiving records? etc.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Thanks. Your right they might not be a better actual receiver, but their stats are making them seem that way

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

I noticed 8 of the top 20 reception leaders as RB's. Not sure what that used to be like, but I don't recall it being that high. And a RB led the league with 127 receptions. So the short passing game (which should lead to more RB receptions) is becoming more popular with the AI teams.

I haven't noticed any other stats that seem quite so dramatically altered from 6.2 to 6.3. Particularly, I haven't seen the top WR #'s drop as a result...

(FWIW: In the NFL, there have only been perhaps 6 RB's in the last 5 years combined that have had a Top-20 effort in receptions.)

[Dutch]

In my SP league, from 2007-2011, the most passes ever attempted by the league was 17,702. In 2012 (6.3) the record was smashed with 18,737.

6.2 year (17,702)
SHORT PASSES - 7,696 (43%)
MEDIUM PASSES - 6,828 (39%)
LONG PASSES - 3,138 (18%)

6.3 year (18,737)
SHORT PASSES - 10,889 (58%) +15%
MEDIUM PASSES - 5,727 (31%) -8%
LONG PASSES - 2,092 (11%) -7%

The big shift made obvious with color and explains the significant RB reception increase.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In my SP league, from 2007-2011, the most passes ever attempted by the league was 17,702. In 2012 (6.3) the record was smashed with 18,737.

6.2 year (17,702)
SHORT PASSES - 7,696 (43%)
MEDIUM PASSES - 6,828 (39%)
LONG PASSES - 3,138 (18%)

6.3 year (18,737)
SHORT PASSES - 10,889 (58%) +15%
MEDIUM PASSES - 5,727 (31%) -8%
LONG PASSES - 2,092 (11%) -7%

The big shift made obvious with color and explains the significant RB reception increase.

Seems like a reasonable explaination as to why this might be happening. I simmed through 2021 just to see what career stats would look like and as expected, RBs are listed very much. The only thing that is probably keeping them from completely dominating the career stats is the fact a RB career is usually less than a WR so gives the WR some time to catch up.

I know I sound like a broken record, but this is not really a good thing and will make it hard for me to continue playing this version. I'm sure others will be fine with it which is Ok. Such a shame since the other stats seem pretty good besides receiving.

Keeping fingers crossed for a fix

[Flasch186]

thoughts on how this RB increase in production is going to effect MP leagues that are on 6.3?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Seems like a reasonable explaination as to why this might be happening. I simmed through 2021 just to see what career stats would look like and as expected, RBs are listed very much. The only thing that is probably keeping them from completely dominating the career stats is the fact a RB career is usually less than a WR so gives the WR some time to catch up.

I know I sound like a broken record, but this is not really a good thing and will make it hard for me to continue playing this version. I'm sure others will be fine with it which is Ok. Such a shame since the other stats seem pretty good besides receiving.

Keeping fingers crossed for a fix

Have you tried keeping your runner in to block more in pass situations?

[Front Office Midget]

Yeah, it makes sense that the change has led to more RB catches, however, it does not properly reflect reality. It seems to me that that really hurts this update...

[SlyBelle1]

Further information on RB issue. I have simmed through 2025 to check out impact to Hall of Fame. Some observations.

1) So far, no WRs elected to the hof - makes sense to me since the RBs are taking too many catches/TDs away from them.

2) So far (5) RBs have been elected to the HOF. All of them appear to be "Thurman Thomas" like. Reasonable rushing yards 11-12k range and big receiving stats.

3) None of the RBs elected appear to the type where they dominated simply running the ball versus combined with their receiving stats.

So to me the RB issue just gets compounded over time...

Again, I don't mind the engine being tweaked to have more shorter passing involved, but that does not need to equate to the RB getting huge receiving numbers. At this point, not realistic and takes away too much from the WRs.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

thoughts on how this RB increase in production is going to effect MP leagues that are on 6.3?

Remember...those increases are with the AI running the show...will that translate to MP directly?

[Flasch186]

I dont know but if people know about it up front I wold guess you simply go from the QB/WR/WR equation to a QB/RB/? Equation....

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

Have you tried keeping your runner in to block more in pass situations?

Even if that would work, it would only be for my team. You can't make the AI controlled teams do this.

[Ben E Lou]

It doesn't appear to be a huge production increase, Flasch. It's a change in Rex game plans. If you ramp up short passing in 6.2, you'll see the exact same thing. RBs and FBs. Point being, it's significant for SP, but probably barely a blip on the radar for MP. It's not like a bunch of these guys are getting 8ypt. More savvy owners will shy away from RBs who suck up targets and don't do anything with 'em. Nitwits will ooh and ahh over their 90-catch, 550-yard, 4.8 ypt RB. *shurg*

[gstelmack]

How often is Rex throwing screens? One issue here is that short passes should still be able to go to WRs a bunch (see Welker, Wes), but FOF has a tendency to throw a lot of screens and hit FBs out of the backfield.

Perhaps RB RR is having too big of an effect?

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

How often is Rex throwing screens? One issue here is that short passes should still be able to go to WRs a bunch (see Welker, Wes), but FOF has a tendency to throw a lot of screens and hit FBs out of the backfield.

Perhaps RB RR is having too big of an effect?

That is what I was thinking too....I don't mind the short passing game, but more passes should go the WRs instead of the RBs.

[Sef0r]

I don't know that this will actually have an affect in the MP environment.

For RBs the Avg/C and catch percentage appears the same. I think it has more to do with REX favouring the shorter passing game and giving the screens + 0-4 yards passing about 50% of those plays.

WRs do seem to get more 3rd down targets then RBs compared to normal passing situations.

Some people don't like using the screens + 0-4 yards much and will probably put 90+ % of short passing to the 5-8 yards passes. I have tried this and my RB is no where near the top.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

How often is Rex throwing screens? One issue here is that short passes should still be able to go to WRs a bunch (see Welker, Wes), but FOF has a tendency to throw a lot of screens and hit FBs out of the backfield.

Perhaps RB RR is having too big of an effect?

I don't think it's RR. It's the significant shift in game plans that Dutch mentioned, and I've seen as well. Lemme do a quick screen shot demonstration...

[Sef0r]

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

That is what I was thinking too....I don't mind the short passing game, but more passes should go the WRs instead of the RBs.

Isn't the primary target in the shorter passing formations the RB?

Okay but I do get your point, primary target or not WRs also catch quick slants.

[Ben E Lou]

EDIT FOR SEFOR EDIT:

Yes, in FOF 6.3, 6.2, 6.1, 6.0, and back in FOF2K4, throwing shorter gets the RB more targets no matter what his RR is.

[Ben E Lou]

Ok. Here's what Rexy is saying for my IHOF MP team's next game.

6.2

6.3



6.2


6.3

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Gotcha....formations maybe?

Sorry, not sure I understand. Could you explain further?

[Sef0r]

Ben, thats a big difference there. The shorter passes gets favoured quite heavily.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Sef0r

Ben, thats a big difference there. The shorter passes gets favoured quite heavily.

Yup. And throwing that much shorter *will* get the RB more looks. It works that way in 6.2. It worked that way in 6.1. It worked that way in FOF2K4, even. RR is important, but for WR vs. TE vs. RB/FB targets, pass distance is probably equally (if not more) important. The easiest way to avoid the RB getting the ball is to throw it down the field more. The easiest way to get the ball to the RB is to throw it short. As I said earlier, it's pretty much a non-issue in MP. I *do* wonder if this might be making SP easier than it should be for the human. (You want *good* receiving RBs to get a lot of passes, but it appears that because of the game plans, even bad ones are.)