2011-12 MLB Offseason Thread: Tigers are really stupid - Page 20

cougarfreak · 12-17-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Gave up Volquez too. Lot to give up. Especially, if Votto isn't signed long term and a crapshoot in left.

Votto is signed for two more years, the Reds are cashing in chips. Who knows what the 4 guys they gave up do.....they have Cueto, Chapman, Latos, Leake signed up for 4 years. They Bruce locked up. They have a better prospect in Mesoraco than Grandal. Volquez has been horrific for two years. It's a risk, but they have to go for it.

rowech · 12-17-2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Votto is signed for two more years, the Reds are cashing in chips. Who knows what the 4 guys they gave up do.....they have Cueto, Chapman, Latos, Leake signed up for 4 years. They Bruce locked up. They have a better prospect in Mesoraco than Grandal. Volquez has been horrific for two years. It's a risk, but they have to go for it.

They definitely just made themselves the NL Central favorites but they still have a massive hole in left and what will turn into a bigger hole than people think it will at third. Cozart will be livable at short. Heisy in left? Maybe. Rolen at third? Francisco? Not thrilled with either of those. They still have no right-handed power.

It's great to get pitching but I'm not sure they've really addressed their major issues going into the off season.

stevew · 12-17-2011, 06:39 PM

I can't believe the Padres traded for another 1b when they already have the Amazing Anthony Rizzo at that position.

cougarfreak · 12-17-2011, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

They definitely just made themselves the NL Central favorites but they still have a massive hole in left and what will turn into a bigger hole than people think it will at third. Cozart will be livable at short. Heisy in left? Maybe. Rolen at third? Francisco? Not thrilled with either of those. They still have no right-handed power.

It's great to get pitching but I'm not sure they've really addressed their major issues going into the off season.

The Reds were second in the league last year in runs scored. Their problem wasn't offense. This trade takes almost zero away from that offense.

rowech · 12-17-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

The Reds were second in the league last year in runs scored. Their problem wasn't offense. This trade takes almost zero away from that offense.

The offense was not consistent in getting those runs. I would rather win two of three games by scores of 5-2, 5-4, and 4-7 than to win one of three by scores of 10-2, 2-4, and 2-7 which is what made last year so frustrating.

Like I said, there's no excuse for them to lose the Central but this team isn't going to win the NL without addressing those holes on the left side somehow.

JPhillips · 12-17-2011, 08:46 PM

I'm really happy with the trade. I wouldn't want to give up Alonso or Grandal for less than an ace, and that's what they got. Given the state of the Central they need to go all in this year. I'd like to see them get a better bat in LF, but Latos is a major upgrade. They now have a 1-2 combo that can stand up to anyone in the NL save Philly.

stevew · 12-17-2011, 09:01 PM

How is a 102 ERA+ pitcher considered an ace? By that metric, Jeff Karstens is like 10% better.

JPhillips · 12-17-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

How is a 102 ERA+ pitcher considered an ace? By that metric, Jeff Karstens is like 10% better.

If you average his two full years he's a 114 ERA+. I think he's got growth potential at only 24 years of age. He isn't Halladay, but he's a #1 for a lot of teams in the NL.

Logan · 12-17-2011, 09:05 PM

Was gonna say...he sure wasn't an ace for my fantasy team last season.

cougarfreak · 12-17-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

How is a 102 ERA+ pitcher considered an ace? By that metric, Jeff Karstens is like 10% better.

Well, I'll tell you what. You keep Karstens, and his 9.0 hits per nine innings from last year, along with his 1.2 hr/9 innings, and his 1.8 BB and 5.3 K rates.

I'll take Latos and his 7.8 H/9, his .7 hr/9, and his 2.9 BB and 8.6 K rate. We'll see who's better.

Oh, and Karstens makes roughly 3x the salary as well.

cougarfreak · 12-17-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm really happy with the trade. I wouldn't want to give up Alonso or Grandal for less than an ace, and that's what they got. Given the state of the Central they need to go all in this year. I'd like to see them get a better bat in LF, but Latos is a major upgrade. They now have a 1-2 combo that can stand up to anyone in the NL save Philly.

I'm betting the Reds look into Kubel, Ludwick, or Beltran for LF. Sometime soon. I really hope the Reds owner goes in big time for Beltran.

Scoobz0202 · 12-17-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I really hope the Reds owner goes in big time for Beltran.

This. I don't want him in STL.

lungs · 12-17-2011, 09:25 PM

Latos is fine and all, but I don't see how this makes the Reds automatic Central favorites. Cardinals have Wainwright, and Carp and Garcia are no slouches. Brewers have all five of their rotation coming back. Gallardo and Greinke are no slouches at the top and Shaun Marcum's playoff implosion aside, he is a very good pitcher.

I'd handicap the Central as fairly even between the three. No way Latos alone makes Reds the clear front runners.

stevew · 12-17-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

Well, I'll tell you what. You keep Karstens, and his 9.0 hits per nine innings from last year, along with his 1.2 hr/9 innings, and his 1.8 BB and 5.3 K rates.

I'll take Latos and his 7.8 H/9, his .7 hr/9, and his 2.9 BB and 8.6 K rate. We'll see who's better.

Oh, and Karstens makes roughly 3x the salary as well.

3 WAR>2.6 WAR

I don't even particularly think Karstens is any good. But all the geek love for a guy who is fraction above league average. I am pretty surprised the guy did not perform that great, and brought back enough prospects to send über stud Anthony Rizzo to the bench.

cougarfreak · 12-17-2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lungs

Latos is fine and all, but I don't see how this makes the Reds automatic Central favorites. Cardinals have Wainwright, and Carp and Garcia are no slouches. Brewers have all five of their rotation coming back. Gallardo and Greinke are no slouches at the top and Shaun Marcum's playoff implosion aside, he is a very good pitcher.

I'd handicap the Central as fairly even between the three. No way Latos alone makes Reds the clear front runners.

I agree to that as well. No way are the Reds runaway favorites. I think some people are saying so because the Brew Crew will lose Fielder, and the Cards Pujols. Add in the fact that Braun may be gone for 50 games, and the Reds look that much better. I think eveything's pretty even right now, I don't think you could pick between the three right now.

dawgfan · 12-17-2011, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

3 WAR>2.6 WAR

I don't even particularly think Karstens is any good. But all the geek love for a guy who is fraction above league average. I am pretty surprised the guy did not perform that great, and brought back enough prospects to send über stud Anthony Rizzo to the bench.

You're looking at metrics about how they did. If you look at metrics that attempt to remove factors out of his control (i.e. xFIP) - factors that are better about predicting future performance than WAR - you'll find that Latos projects as quite a bit better than Karstens.

Atocep · 12-17-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

3 WAR>2.6 WAR

I don't even particularly think Karstens is any good. But all the geek love for a guy who is fraction above league average. I am pretty surprised the guy did not perform that great, and brought back enough prospects to send über stud Anthony Rizzo to the bench.

You're too focused on what he did in 2011. In '10 Latos pitched like a legitimate #1 starter as a 22 year old. He also pitched around 70 more innings than he ever had. Last year we saw some injuries and inconsistency from him, but he was still a 23 year old that struck out almost a batter per inning with less than 3 walks per 9. That's better than a tick above league average.

Yes, he's known to be a bit of an asshole but what we see this year will probably give us a better idea of what to expect from him in the future since he's a year removed from the big leap in innings and he's moving out of PETCO. I seriously doubt I could name 10 pitchers younger than 25 I'd take over Latos though. His floor at this point looks like #2 starter.

MizzouRah · 12-18-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

They definitely just made themselves the NL Central favorites but they still have a massive hole in left and what will turn into a bigger hole than people think it will at third. Cozart will be livable at short. Heisy in left? Maybe. Rolen at third? Francisco? Not thrilled with either of those. They still have no right-handed power.

It's great to get pitching but I'm not sure they've really addressed their major issues going into the off season.

The NL Central favorites? Are you serious?

Scoobz0202 · 12-18-2011, 12:57 PM

I don't think there is an NL Central favorite. I'd say it could go one of three ways. Like last year.

MizzouRah · 12-18-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

I don't think there is an NL Central favorite. I'd say it could go one of three ways. Like last year.

The Cardinals are without Pujols, but Wainwright is back - and even if he's not at his best, is a major plus to this starting pitching staff. We have also upgraded at SS, but can Furcal stay healthy?

The Brewers have lost Fielder and maybe Braun for 50 games.

Ok so the Reds added a #1 to their pitching staff.. but I think they still have some offensive holes to fill.

The Cubs? They lost their 3B - will they sign Fielder? If not, they don't worry me one bit.

Scoobz0202 · 12-18-2011, 01:43 PM

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Or are you saying the Cardinals are the favorites?

EDIT: There is no way the Cardinals are a better team then last year without Pujols. Is Carpenter losing steam or will he be great? Garcia regressed. The Brewers will be in a hole the first fifty games, will have to see if they add anybody. But the Central is notorious the past few years of nobody really jumping out. They will probably continue to beat each other and the Brewers may be down six games. The Reds have improved their team. See if Cozart can perform at short. See where Mesoraco is. Questionable what will happen to Chapman. But I don't see how with all these variables there can be a "clear" favorite.

rowech · 12-18-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

The NL Central favorites? Are you serious?

Absolutely. They're the favorites just by the losses of Pujols, Fielder, and Braun's 50.

MizzouRah · 12-18-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Or are you saying the Cardinals are the favorites?

EDIT: There is no way the Cardinals are a better team then last year without Pujols. Is Carpenter losing steam or will he be great? Garcia regressed. The Brewers will be in a hole the first fifty games, will have to see if they add anybody. But the Central is notorious the past few years of nobody really jumping out. They will probably continue to beat each other and the Brewers may be down six games. The Reds have improved their team. See if Cozart can perform at short. See where Mesoraco is. Questionable what will happen to Chapman. But I don't see how with all these variables there can be a "clear" favorite.

More or less agreeing with you, I still think the Cardinals are the team to beat. I would also think a healthy Holliday will help offset losing Pujols.

This could all change with injuries/signings of course.

MizzouRah · 12-18-2011, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Absolutely. They're the favorites just by the losses of Pujols, Fielder, and Braun's 50.

You're high.

You are talking about the Reds who finished 17 games out last year, correct?

rowech · 12-18-2011, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

You're high.

You are talking about the Reds who finished 17 games out last year, correct?

And the same team who won the division two years before. The thing about them compared to the other teams is their youth. The Reds, other than really Rolen and Arroyo, are only going to be better.

lungs · 12-18-2011, 04:22 PM

I think it's pretty clear that the Brewers are the team to beat.

There. We've all annointed our favorite teams as the favorite.

rowech · 12-18-2011, 04:25 PM

I just think people are vastly underestimating how important Pujols and Fielder are going to be to those two teams.

lungs · 12-18-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

I just think people are vastly underestimating how important Pujols and Fielder are going to be to those two teams.

Are you underestimating how much an improvement the Brewers will have not starting Yuniesky Betancourt and Casey McGehee every day?

I've seen some analysis that actually says that A. Ramirez/A. Gonzalez/Weeks/Gamel > McGehee/Betancourt/Weeks/Fielder.

Potentially losing Braun does hurt, but it's not the whole season. And I must reiterate the Brewers rotation comes back intact with the benefit of actually having a shortstop behind them.

MizzouRah · 12-18-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lungs

I think it's pretty clear that the Brewers are the team to beat.

There. We've all annointed our favorite teams as the favorite.

Screw you.. without Fielder you are nothing.

I'm with you though.. should be another good season for this division fighting it out.

lungs · 12-18-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Screw you.. without Fielder you are nothing.

I'm with you though.. should be another good season for this division fighting it out.

And with Pujols and LaRussa gone...... Oh wait, Carpenter and Yadi are still there, I still hate the Cardinals

stevew · 12-19-2011, 09:22 PM

Ed Wade back to the Phils in a scouting role. Good luck with that.

RedKingGold · 12-19-2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Ed Wade back to the Phils in a scouting role. Good luck with that.

He's been working for the Phillies for a few years now, so this is not much of a change.

RedKingGold · 12-19-2011, 09:26 PM

BTW, in all seriousness, I think Wade can actually scout talent. It's running a baseball team, making smart signings and trades, he struggles with.

stevew · 12-19-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

He's been working for the Phillies for a few years now, so this is not much of a change.

He probably just included himself in the Pence or Oswalt deals as a PTBNL.

cartman · 12-19-2011, 10:24 PM

Rangers win the bid to negotiate with Yu Darvish.

Rangers post high bid for Yu Darvish - Dallas Texas Rangers Blog - ESPN Dallas

Crapshoot · 12-19-2011, 10:27 PM

Rangers replace CJ Wilson with Yu Darvish eh? Should be interesting to see whether he gets Dice-K money or more. Still, he's supposed to be the best pitcher in Japan and then some; never had an ERA above 2.

RedKingGold · 12-19-2011, 10:27 PM

So much for Toronto's "massive" offer (or whatever the wordage was).

cartman · 12-19-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Rangers replace CJ Wilson with Yu Darvish eh? Should be interesting to see whether he gets Dice-K money or more. Still, he's supposed to be the best pitcher in Japan and then some; never had an ERA above 2.

Sounds like the contract is probably going to be more than both Dice-Ks and what they were offering to C.J. Wilson. I hope Nolan is proved right on this one.

Suicane75 · 12-19-2011, 10:45 PM

With the losses of Pujols, Fielder, Colvin and Alonso I think the Pirates are clearly the team to beat.

ISiddiqui · 12-19-2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

Rangers win the bid to negotiate with Yu Darvish.

Rangers post high bid for Yu Darvish - Dallas Texas Rangers Blog - ESPN Dallas

Well that is certainly the way to get back into it after the Angels took Pujols and Wilson.

Crapshoot · 12-19-2011, 11:21 PM

Still think the Rangers are the best team in the AL West, IMO.

Young Drachma · 12-20-2011, 01:06 AM

We lost by 100,000.

DanGarion · 12-20-2011, 09:55 AM

How does the posting offer count towards the salary cap?

cartman · 12-20-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

How does the posting offer count towards the salary cap?

There is no salary cap in baseball. The amount where you pay the luxury tax starts at $178 million under the recently signed CBA, and the Rangers will be nowhere near that amount.

DanGarion · 12-20-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

There is no salary cap in baseball. The amount where you pay the luxury tax starts at $178 million under the recently signed CBA, and the Rangers will be nowhere near that amount.

Sorry I meant the luxury tax, I know there isn't a cap.

stevew · 12-20-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

So much for Toronto's "massive" offer (or whatever the wordage was).

Really enjoying watching that confident Blue Jay blogger eat shit.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 12-20-2011, 11:41 AM

Posting fees do not figure into luxury tax calculations at all.

DeToxRox · 12-20-2011, 12:55 PM

Report: Daily News’ Bill Conlin Accused Of Child Molestation

Quote:

According to a report from the website Deadspin, legendary Daily News columnist Bill Conlin has resigned from the newspaper amid accusations of child molestation.

The accusations come from Conlin’s own employer, Philadelphia Media Networks, which owns the Inquirer, Daily News and Philly.com. Deadspin reports that Inquirer‘s investigative reporter Nancy Phillips has written a story containing allegations of child molestation against Conlin. Deadspin says Conlin resigned today.

The 77-year-old Conlin won baseball’s J.G. Taylor Spink Award Award last summer. Conlin reportedly has hired an attorney to defend himself against the accusation.

Ksyrup · 12-20-2011, 01:28 PM

Damn.

ISiddiqui · 12-20-2011, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

So much for Toronto's "massive" offer (or whatever the wordage was).

Considering the bid for Yu was $51.7 million:

Rangers win Darvish rights with record bid - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

Toronto MAY have indeed had a massive offer. Just not that insanely massive.

12-17-2011, 08:46 PM	#956
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I'm really happy with the trade. I wouldn't want to give up Alonso or Grandal for less than an ace, and that's what they got. Given the state of the Central they need to go all in this year. I'd like to see them get a better bat in LF, but Latos is a major upgrade. They now have a 1-2 combo that can stand up to anyone in the NL save Philly. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

12-18-2011, 01:43 PM	#971
Scoobz0202 Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio	Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Or are you saying the Cardinals are the favorites? EDIT: There is no way the Cardinals are a better team then last year without Pujols. Is Carpenter losing steam or will he be great? Garcia regressed. The Brewers will be in a hole the first fifty games, will have to see if they add anybody. But the Central is notorious the past few years of nobody really jumping out. They will probably continue to beat each other and the Brewers may be down six games. The Reds have improved their team. See if Cozart can perform at short. See where Mesoraco is. Questionable what will happen to Chapman. But I don't see how with all these variables there can be a "clear" favorite. Last edited by Scoobz0202 : 12-18-2011 at 01:51 PM.

12-19-2011, 09:26 PM	#983
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	BTW, in all seriousness, I think Wade can actually scout talent. It's running a baseball team, making smart signings and trades, he struggles with. Last edited by RedKingGold : 12-19-2011 at 09:27 PM.

12-19-2011, 10:24 PM	#985
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	Rangers win the bid to negotiate with Yu Darvish. Rangers post high bid for Yu Darvish - Dallas Texas Rangers Blog - ESPN Dallas __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

12-20-2011, 01:06 AM	#992
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	We lost by 100,000. __________________ FBCB / FPB3 Mods

12-17-2011, 06:39 PM	#953
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I can't believe the Padres traded for another 1b when they already have the Amazing Anthony Rizzo at that position.

12-17-2011, 09:01 PM	#957
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	How is a 102 ERA+ pitcher considered an ace? By that metric, Jeff Karstens is like 10% better.

12-17-2011, 09:05 PM	#959
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Was gonna say...he sure wasn't an ace for my fantasy team last season.

12-17-2011, 09:25 PM	#963
lungs Pro Rookie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Prairie du Sac, WI	Latos is fine and all, but I don't see how this makes the Reds automatic Central favorites. Cardinals have Wainwright, and Carp and Garcia are no slouches. Brewers have all five of their rotation coming back. Gallardo and Greinke are no slouches at the top and Shaun Marcum's playoff implosion aside, he is a very good pitcher. I'd handicap the Central as fairly even between the three. No way Latos alone makes Reds the clear front runners.

12-18-2011, 12:57 PM	#969
Scoobz0202 Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio	I don't think there is an NL Central favorite. I'd say it could go one of three ways. Like last year.

12-18-2011, 04:22 PM	#976
lungs Pro Rookie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Prairie du Sac, WI	I think it's pretty clear that the Brewers are the team to beat. There. We've all annointed our favorite teams as the favorite.

12-18-2011, 04:25 PM	#977
rowech Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2006	I just think people are vastly underestimating how important Pujols and Fielder are going to be to those two teams.

12-19-2011, 09:22 PM	#981
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Ed Wade back to the Phils in a scouting role. Good luck with that.

12-19-2011, 10:27 PM	#986
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	Rangers replace CJ Wilson with Yu Darvish eh? Should be interesting to see whether he gets Dice-K money or more. Still, he's supposed to be the best pitcher in Japan and then some; never had an ERA above 2.

12-19-2011, 10:27 PM	#987
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	So much for Toronto's "massive" offer (or whatever the wordage was).

12-19-2011, 10:45 PM	#989
Suicane75 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ	With the losses of Pujols, Fielder, Colvin and Alonso I think the Pirates are clearly the team to beat.

12-19-2011, 11:21 PM	#991
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	Still think the Rangers are the best team in the AL West, IMO.

12-20-2011, 09:55 AM	#993
DanGarion Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwest	How does the posting offer count towards the salary cap? __________________ Los Angeles Dodgers Check out the FOFC Groups on Facebook! and Reddit! DON'T REPORT ME BRO!

12-20-2011, 11:41 AM	#997
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	Posting fees do not figure into luxury tax calculations at all. __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

12-20-2011, 01:28 PM	#999
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Damn. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)