POTUS 2016 General Election Discussion Thread

[Butter]

Lenny Kravitz is really the best we could do here?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Lenny Kravitz is really the best we could do here?

Hey, he played the Super Bowl.. 18 months ago..

[corbes]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd be shocked if it moved anything at all. I'd rather see Putin in the WH than HRC or Obama for that matter.

*nods solemnly, marks vote, and wonders what Reagan would have thought*

[Edward64]

Donald bashing night.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Hey, he played the Super Bowl.. 18 months ago..

Well I think he sucks.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hillary is the "sane" choice ... is he saying that Donald is insane?

That word doesn't mean what he thinks it does.

[Neuqua]

Ok, that Obama intro video was fantastic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

It's not so much believing you're right, as it being willing to compromise some of your values in the furtherance of others. Which takes a certain amount of pragmatism to at least acknowledge that there's other valid opinions on things.

Depends on "the things". If you don't like pepperoni but I do, that's cool.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by molson

On the other hand, someone who refuses to compromise their vision, and who thinks that their one way of looking at things is inherently correct and that everyone else is beneath them wouldn't make a very effective president.

For what it's worth, I'm not disagreeing here either. I probably didn't convey it as well as I should have, but being willing to change is also a Big Deal. But...you change your position for the right reasons. You get your feedback from actually qualified people, you make a decision, you hope it's the right one.

Problem is, most politicians move their position based on 1) what will keep them in office, 2) what keeps donors money flowing in. Doing what's actually good for the people you're supposedly serving takes a verrrrry distant third.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Well I think he sucks.

I still can't believe he doubled down on "Are You Gonna Go My Way" with a similarly lyric-less "Fly Away". I mean that shit is like some sort of contemporary church music song in it's simplicity and repeated refrain.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by corbes

*nods solemnly, marks vote, and wonders what Reagan would have thought*

The Soviet Union is an evil empire, and I really like them!

[RainMaker]

Jon likes a Communist who worked in the KGB is a revelation. Perhaps professing his adoration for Mao is coming next week.

[RainMaker]

This election is getting the right to support the Russians and the left to turn into Joseph McCarthy. What a time to be alive.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The concept of her flipping her position to suit whatever best fits her political ambitions is a well discussed notion, and you know it. When she is President, she won't do what is good for the people. She will do what is politically expedient and which will help her get re-elected in 2020.

1) "good for the people" in these assertions nearly always means "good for the subset of the population I and those of my ideological bent have chosen to identify as "Real America."

"The people" aren't a monolithic entity whereby what's good for one is good for all. Republicans love them some upper class tax cuts, but what usually pays for that is either debt or cutting the social safety net and playing "makers and takers."

The tax cuts work out well for people who pull down six figure incomes, but the much larger percentage of the population for whom the social safety net represents the difference between poverty and disaster? Usually not so much.

2) "Politically expedient," phrased another way: "Politics is the art of the possible." If you're acting in a politically expedient fashion, that typically means you're doing what you can, rather than choosing to die heroically on Ideological Purity Beach.

Maybe in pursuing what you think is possible you have to leave behind what you really want, and maybe somebody feels betrayed by that, but you know what? The thing about politics?

The folks like Jon who think that any compromise at all from 100% "my way or go fuck yourself" is the end of the Republic and a sign of spineless toad-fuckers are people who, more often than not, aren't going to get any of what they want.

And that works all along the ideological spectrum. If you put out, as your First Principle, that you're not going to negotiate, that you're not going to bend on anything I want because your ideological viewpoint is that I'm evil incarnate bent on destroying Mom and apple pie, where is my incentive to work with you? On anything?

By that logic, if I don't plant myself firmly athwart the road and say "No; YOU move," then I'm guilty of the same spineless toad-fuckery. It's just toad-fuckery you'd be able to live with because, after all, it isn't as if you thought anything I stood for was worthwhile.

And that's how the Republic grinds to a halt, when "I got mine, go fuck yourselves" are the words of House Reagan.

[nol]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Once again, I've never understood the fascination with people who don't believe they're right.

If you think you're wrong then why are you holding position X in the first place?

Because if the issue isn't an existential threat to America, most smart people are willing to wait a little bit for their position be proven demonstrably true. On the other hand, if you believe that allowing gay people to get married, Obamacare, and countless other things were going to bring about the end times, after a while you lose credibility.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Jon likes a Communist who worked in the KGB is a revelation.

And Stalin was our ally to defeat a more serious enemy.

Putin is less a communist at this point than most of the identifiable (D) candidates or personalities. My biggest knock on the KGB is their historic employers.

There isn't much you can come up with that I wouldn't find preferable to the domestic left.

[RainMaker]

Russia's Putin: I've Always Liked Communist and Socialist 'Ideas'

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The concept of her flipping her position to suit whatever best fits her political ambitions is a well discussed notion, and you know it.

Examples?

On her core issues, such as support for children, she's been consistent since the 70s.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Probably wouldn't mind him there instead of Trump either frankly.

Apart from being a foreigner, he's pretty much your ideal candidate. Authoritarian, ends-justify-the-means and pretty much thinks everyone outside his country (and many in it) aren't worth a bucket of warm spit.

The fact that he grew up a communist is a red herring. If anyone looks at how Putin has run Russia and thinks he's anything other than a Authoritarian Capitalist, I really don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by molson

On the other hand, someone who refuses to compromise their vision, and who thinks that their one way of looking at things is inherently correct and that everyone else is beneath them wouldn't make a very effective president.

Oh, I think George W. Bush did fine.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Bloomberg has credibility in attacking Trump's business acumen.

The Democrats need to do more on this, and having surrogates with actual business success do it instead of Hillary is a good thing.

Trump's business acumen, like most things about him, has very little behind it.

[miked]

It's been amazing watching these 2 conventions. Watching the RNC I would believe America is in the toilet and heading for the sewers. The speakers said almost nothing about Donald Trump, just spent days railing against Hillary. The DNC speakers until last night barely mentioned Trump, and really just spent a few sentences trashing him. Mostly talking about Hillary's accomplishments (and their own). Odd times.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I still can't believe he doubled down on "Are You Gonna Go My Way" with a similarly lyric-less "Fly Away". I mean that shit is like some sort of contemporary church music song in it's simplicity and repeated refrain.

I saw the tail end of his set when he opened for GNR last week and surprisingly thought it was good.

[molson]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Oh, I think George W. Bush did fine.

Bush never struck me as a strict-policy guy like Sanders. He was more about broad themes. Though it's kind of hard to evaluate him in that way because his whole presidency was defined by an event and how he reacted to it. (Edit: Which is part of what I was saying before a about a president's list of policy positions not necessarily being the most important thing. Responding to the unexpected is probably more important, and it's where a president really defines his or her legacy.)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Obama's speech was epic.

Yep. He was fantastic. The contrast in speakers between the DNC and RNC is incredibly stark (I know I'm biased). Just great speaker after great speaker at the DNC (well, Tim Kaine wasn't that good, but he was competent and spawned an army of nice-guy dad comments on Twitter, so good I guess).

President Obama just killed it with that speech, portraying a Reagan-esque optimism he has in America. Made me so proud in what my country has accomplished.

And, speaking of, it was interesting to see the Democrats being the party of patriotism, values, for the troops, chanting "USA" - this is what Donald Trump has done to your party, Republicans; the Democrats just took some of your best stuff as smooth as silk.

[Easy Mac]

Surprisingly for me, I actually think this article from Red State pretty much sums up the past 2 weeks of conventions fairly well.

Trump Knows the Mood of the Country Better than the Democrats, Who are Blowing It at Their Convention | RedState

[Butter]

I feel like the Democrats haven't yet made the case of Hillary as trustworthy. Whether one thinks she is or not, the Republicans have basically been hammering the Clintons for over 20 years for one reason or another, so it's not surprising where she's at. I don't know how one speech changes that. I guess we'll see.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Surprisingly for me, I actually think this article from Red State pretty much sums up the past 2 weeks of conventions fairly well.

Trump Knows the Mood of the Country Better than the Democrats, Who are Blowing It at Their Convention | RedState

It's like RedState has unlearned all the lessons from Ronald Reagan.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by tarcone

You are happy that there was a wall built and voices were quieted? Really?

Think like us or shut the f*ck up.

So, this outrages you too then?

Post reporter barred, patted down by police, at rally for Trump running mate - The Washington Post

Trump revokes Post press credentials, calling the paper ‘dishonest’ and ‘phony’ - The Washington Post

Report what I tell you, or stfu?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's like RedState has unlearned all the lessons from Ronald Reagan.

This.

Also, wrong track isn't comprised of a single ideological group. Some people are pissed at the things Trump is pissed at, but others are pissed at the GOP or corporate America or the cops or... Politically, there's no room to out anger Trump, as the GOP primary showed. The only space is less angry. It may not work, but trying to out anger Trump is certainly a losing strategy.

[Dutch]

Im just glad the DNC isn't unhappy and loves America and waved American flags. It's not the impression I've had of them for the last 12 years. Good to see them coming around.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

waved American flags.

Make up call for the opening night of the convention.

[digamma]

Oh yay! Now it's the Democrats hate America trope! We're trotting them all out this week.

[ISiddiqui]

Well since it's obvious that the Republicans hate America, it's projection

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by digamma

Oh yay! Now it's the Democrats hate America trope! We're trotting them all out this week.

That one went away?

There hasn't been a more destructive force allied against the United States in its entire history than what the Democratic Party has turned into.

If the truth hurts, that's just too damned bad.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That one went away?

There hasn't been a more destructive force allied against the United States in its entire history than what the Democratic Party has turned into.

If the truth hurts, that's just too damned bad.

To be fair, you're not exactly Mr. Positive when discussing the state of the U.S.A. I used to think that the Dems mostly were the side that pushed the "America sucks" narrative (which makes sense, since progressives generally want to change things). But that's definitely shifted some. The Sanders side of the Democratic party was definitely the most negative about the U.S., and they lost. The Trump side of the Republican party was the side that was most negative about the U.S., and they won.

[Kodos]

So Democrats are worse than the Russians were with their nuclear arsenal? Got it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

To be fair, you're not exactly Mr. Positive when discussing the state of the U.S.A.

I certainly won't argue with you on that point.

And that's significantly due to the misguided/evil (take your pick, case by case I suppose) efforts of the Ds, who've done their dead level best to destroy the nation beyond all recognition.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So Democrats are worse than the Russians were with their nuclear arsenal? Got it.

Do you really feel the need to ask whether I'd prefer that to the slow painful death we've ended up with?

If the Soviets had taken us out, in hindsight it looks like it might have been a mercy killing.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That one went away?

There hasn't been a more destructive force allied against the United States in its entire history than what the Democratic Party has turned into.

If the truth hurts, that's just too damned bad.

Spasibo, comrade.

[Thomkal]

well hadn't heard too much from/about Tim Kaine since being named VP, but good thing the Republican Party of North Carolina spotted this:

Whoops! NC Republicans 'shame' Tim Kaine for flag pin honoring son in the military | abc11.com

[cartman]

[larrymcg421]

Boy, those NC Republicans sure are doing a bang up job this year.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Do you really feel the need to ask whether I'd prefer that to the slow painful death we've ended up with?

If the Soviets had taken us out, in hindsight it looks like it might have been a mercy killing.

I have a suspicion that this is exactly the type of person the KGB turned during the Cold War.

[larrymcg421]

Jon = Matthew Rhys

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have a suspicion that this is exactly the type of person the KGB turned during the Cold War.

Nah.

During the Cold War era things weren't nearly in this bad a shape.

[thesloppy]

There's a part of me that feels like the rhetoric comparing Hitler to Trump is kind of offensive, or at least hypocritical, considering that it's based on Trump hypothetically killing lots of Muslims, but the folks I know who are most vocal and insistent about the horror of the idea have pretty much given Obama and the Dems a free pass on killing real, actual Muslim people for the last 8 years.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

There's a part of me that feels like the rhetoric comparing Hitler to Trump is kind of offensive, or at least hypocritical, considering that it's based on Trump hypothetically killing lots of Muslims, but the folks I know who are most vocal and insistent about the horror of the idea have pretty much given Obama and the Dems a free pass on killing real, actual Muslim people for the last 8 years.

How about not making it an either/or? Gary Johnson and Bill Weld think Trump's deportation plan is eerily similar to Kristallnacht and also think Obama needs to stop killing innocent Middle Eastern people with drones. Condemning both allows you to avoid the typical "Well if you think he's bad at least he didn't do this" false left/right paradigm.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I certainly won't argue with you on that point.

And that's significantly due to the misguided/evil (take your pick, case by case I suppose) efforts of the Ds, who've done their dead level best to destroy the nation beyond all recognition.

Well, it certainly seems like their creation of a victim culture is effective. Too bad, I'm sure you are missing some good things in your world that the big bad boogeyman hasn't destroyed.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by panerd

How about not making it an either/or? Gary Johnson and Bill Weld think Trump's deportation plan is eerily similar to Kristallnacht and also think Obama needs to stop killing innocent Middle Eastern people with drones. Condemning both allows you to avoid the typical "Well if you think he's bad at least he didn't do this" false left/right paradigm.

Yeah, I certainly don't have a problem with that line of thinking, as I'll probably be voting green again, but most of my Dem friends don't even bother to recognize the confliction.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Yeah, I certainly don't have a problem with that line of thinking, as I'll probably be voting green again, but most of my Dem friends don't even bother to recognize the confliction.

It's insane how much many of my friends and family hold these political parties so dearly and with no hint of shame change their views on wars, trade, privacy... based on what the D/R candidate is saying that election cycle.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nah.

During the Cold War era things weren't nearly in this bad a shape*.

*If you were a heterosexual white male.

[bhlloy]

I do wonder if the Internet has finally broken political discourse, without trying to sound all HOT TAEK or hyperbolic. Message boards, social media and even legitimate news channels seem to be 24/7 just garbage and propaganda from both sides of the aisle. Even people I seem to think are intelligent, well balanced individuals that largely I would hold similar viewpoints as aren't immune from posting barely disguised partisan garbage. The actual media seems nothing more than clickbait and more than willing to shape the race the way they want it and promote the stories that gets them more views. Does Hilary hate America and will she let ISIS jihadis butcher your children? Is Trump an evil racist demagogue who will start WW3? Tune in at 10pm to find out!

This may be no more than a hysterical rant but fuck, it's not even August yet. And I want to go live on a mountain somewhere until it's all over already.