The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

There's nothing equalizing about it. It's idiotic that any leader, not to mention the person 3rd in line to be president is wasting any time with this stupidity. There's obviously a side bet between Democrats and Republicans to see who can make the dumber statements this week.

Agree with you on it being idiotic and a stupid waste of time.

at the second part.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Good Lord. Just when this couldn't get any dumber, Pelosi chimes in........

AUDIO - Rep. Pelosi calls for investigation of WTC mosque opposition - Washington Times

This whole issue is just obnoxious.

This I thought was VERY well done ...

msnbc.com Video Player

[lungs]

24% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Personally, I'm surprised the number isn't higher. But still, 24% of Americans are pretty fucked in the head.

Link

[Passacaglia]

Dude, Carl Levin doesn't know they're called Michiganders? WTF?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

24% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Personally, I'm surprised the number isn't higher. But still, 24% of Americans are pretty fucked in the head.

Link

Actually two polls came out this week on that subject, Pew Research got an 18% Muslim response, with only 34% identifying Obama as a Christian. There was also this breakdown of the Pew survey,

The Pew poll found that about three in 10 of Obama's fiercest political rivals, Republicans and conservatives, say he is a Muslim. That is up significantly from last year and far higher than the share of Democrats and liberals who say so. But even among his supporters, the number saying he is a Christian has fallen since 2009, with just 43 percent of blacks and 46 percent of Democrats saying he is Christian.

Among independents, 18 percent say Obama is Muslim - up from 10 percent last year.
My Way News - Poll: Growing number incorrectly call Obama Muslim

[panerd]

Originally Posted by lungs

24% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Personally, I'm surprised the number isn't higher. But still, 24% of Americans are pretty fucked in the head.

Link

Sixty percent believe literally in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.

So neither this Mosque controversy or the 24% Muslim thing surprises me at all. In fact I actually am a little surprised the number isn't higher.

[panerd]

From the same article...

61 percent of Americans believe "religion can answer all or most of today's problems". Wow.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sixty percent believe literally in the story of Noah's ark and a global flood, while 64 percent agree that Moses parted the Red Sea to save fleeing Jews from their Egyptian captors.

So neither this Mosque controversy or the 24% Muslim thing surprises me at all. In fact I actually am a little surprised the number isn't higher.

Isn't that exactly what lungs said?

EDIT: Not trying to be confrontational or anything...just weird that you said "in fact" in reply to him, as if he were posting it hoping to surprise you. Probably not what you meant, just came out weird I think.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Isn't that exactly what lungs said?

He said 24% of Americans were fucked in the head, I changed it to 60%.

[panerd]

My best guess from Obama's "wink wink" discussions about his grandmother is that Obama is probably at least an agnostic and possibly an atheist. But knowing that being an atheist would be a bigger black eye to the presidency than a convicted felon he lies about it. This actually isn't a bad thing about Obama, my respect would likely double or triple if he came out as an atheist.

[molson]

Originally Posted by panerd

My best guess from Obama's "wink wink" discussions about his grandmother is that Obama is probably at least an agnostic and possibly an atheist. But knowing that being an atheist would be a bigger black eye to the presidency than a convicted felon he lies about it. This actually isn't a bad thing about Obama, my respect would likely double or triple if he came out as an atheist.

He seems pretty spiritual. And interested in religions (at least 2). I'd have to vote agnostic.

Edit: And didn't he write some private prayer on a piece of paper that someone stole and then released the contents of? I guess he could have assumed that somebody would get their hands on it, but I don't think he's running that complicated a lifetime ruse. He prays, he feels something in church, he feels something through his spirtuality, maybe he meditates, but he's not a practicing member of any religion. Just my guess.

[Dutch]

From what I understand, his rationale for getting baptized in Rev. Wright's Trinity church was to win votes in his younger Chicago politician days. I'm guessing agnostic or atheist.

[JediKooter]

Please be atheist...fuck that would be hilarious to see a bunch peoples heads explode like in Scanners.

[JPhillips]

Really no president since Carter has been as avid a church goer as they'd like people to believe. Some of it's logistic as it's difficult for both the President and the church, but a lot of it's just the reality that these men see themselves as Christian, but the quest for power doesn't leave them the time to integrate into a real Christian community.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This whole issue is just obnoxious.

Damn straight


Call me petty and stupid, but I was talking about this over the weekend with my wife. My first reaction was extreme annoyance at Obama for interjecting himself into this. I feel strongly that if someone wants to build a mosque a few blocks from WTC, so be it- they have the right even tho, yeah, it's a stupid idea. It seemed like it was going to happen since they got approval from the city council or building commission or whatever.

So it was a done deal and why did Obama have to step right into it? I mean, if he was going to open his mouth and interject himself knowingly into a firestorm, couldn't it have been for a public option or cap and trade or something where his clout would have actually meant something rather than stepping headlong into an already done battle where he's just going to get burned? This political team that seemed to be able to do little wrong getting him elected (except letting the Jeremiah Wright thing blow up like it did) can't do crap now that he's in office.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This political team that seemed to be able to do little wrong getting him elected (except letting the Jeremiah Wright thing blow up like it did) can't do crap now that he's in office.SI

Supposedly, if you believe the rumor mill anyway, Rahm tried to talk him out of commenting on this for several days but to no avail.

So it's at least possible that his team didn't let him down on this one, more like the other way around.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Please be atheist...fuck that would be hilarious to see a bunch peoples heads explode like in Scanners.

Wouldn't that just make you wonder what other elements of this fictional "character" he's created for himself to obtain power are bullshit?

For example, that he supports gay rights (including gay marriage). That's not a very well kept secret, that he doesn't, but it's one he's managed to cover up and not be called on very often.

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Damn straight


Call me petty and stupid, but I was talking about this over the weekend with my wife. My first reaction was extreme annoyance at Obama for interjecting himself into this. I feel strongly that if someone wants to build a mosque a few blocks from WTC, so be it- they have the right even tho, yeah, it's a stupid idea. It seemed like it was going to happen since they got approval from the city council or building commission or whatever.

So it was a done deal and why did Obama have to step right into it? I mean, if he was going to open his mouth and interject himself knowingly into a firestorm, couldn't it have been for a public option or cap and trade or something where his clout would have actually meant something rather than stepping headlong into an already done battle where he's just going to get burned? This political team that seemed to be able to do little wrong getting him elected (except letting the Jeremiah Wright thing blow up like it did) can't do crap now that he's in office.

SI

He does have a different view of presidency. The whole "beer summit" thing seems even more ridiculous in retrospect. I think the next step is getting involved in a controversial reality show outcome

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

You don't think if he hadn't said something about it, he wouldn't be asked about it on his next press conference. Unfortunately, this has been made into an issue. If Obama had said nothing, you'd have Republicans saying, "why won't Obama give his opinion on an issue that many Americans, including 9/11 families care a lot about? Doesn't he care about what America cares about? Or he is just another elitist?" So, he was f'd either way.

Appeasing Republicans has definitely been an surprising priority of this administration, so I can't argue with that.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by lungs

24% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Personally, I'm surprised the number isn't higher. But still, 24% of Americans are pretty fucked in the head.

Link

Nah. Muslim is just a PC way to say the n word.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

Wouldn't that just make you wonder what other elements of this fictional "character" he's created for himself to obtain power are bullshit?

For example, that he supports gay rights (including gay marriage). That's not a very well kept secret, that he doesn't, but it's one he's managed to cover up and not be called on very often.

Even Biden admitted that he was not for gay marriage in one of the VP debates. So, no, not surprising. I've always said, a politicians only job is to get themselves elected/re-elected, the truth is only a mere afterthought and a minor inconvenience.

[larrymcg421]

As for the "Mosque" controversy, I think Obama didn't want to get involved, but genuinely got concerned at the nature of the attacks against the project.

As for gay marriage, I think most gays (and gay rights supporters) believe Obama is really in favor of gay marriage, but understand that he has to equivocate on this issue. As a gay rights supporter myself, that's how I see it.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by panerd

From the same article...

61 percent of Americans believe "religion can answer all or most of today's problems". Wow.

LOL. People are fucking stupid.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

LOL. Americans are fucking stupid.

Fixed.

Most other civilized countries have started trending away from the fairy tales.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Fixed.

Most other civilized countries have started trending away from the fairy tales.

Rather harsh. I predict another religion/god thread coming up.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Rather harsh. I predict another religion/god thread coming up.

No point really... if 60% believe that Noah's Ark and the Great Flood really happened then rational discourse is highly unlikely with the other 40%.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by lungs

24% of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim. Personally, I'm surprised the number isn't higher. But still, 24% of Americans are pretty fucked in the head.

Link

We decided it's something in your water a long time ago

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

No point really... if 60% believe that Noah's Ark and the Great Flood really happened then rational discourse is highly unlikely with the other 40%.

Of course it happened man. I mean...it's in A BOOK!

[Greyroofoo]

I really want to see Obama convert to Islam just to see conservative heads explode.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Rather harsh. I predict another religion/god thread coming up.

Not too harsh - Rainmaker's actually figured out that the human species has figured out everything there is to know about the universe, and that any further philosophical or spiritual reflection is stupid. (Which actually makes him more enlightened than Einstein, so it's a real honor to have him posting on this board)

Though he is wrong about the religion going away part - Islam is growing and spreading geographically (both the religious part, and the culture and way of looking at the world that it has inspired)

[panerd]

Originally Posted by molson

Not too harsh - Rainmaker's actually figured out that the human species has figured out everything there is to know about the universe, and that any further philosophical or spiritual reflection is stupid. (Which actually makes him more enlightened than Einstein, so it's a real honor to have him posting on this board)

Though he is wrong about the religion going away part - Islam is growing and spreading geographically (both the religious part, and the culture and way of looking at the world that it has inspired)

I would think his view on organized religion would just put him along side most of the world’s philosophers who consider it quite silly. How some people take a criticism of the absurdity of organized religion as some sort of answer to the universe's mysteries has always astounded me. The only people I see saying they know the truth and have figured it all out all tend to be the religious.

As for your unusual decision to invoke Einstein...

"Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression. Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections. "

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

As for gay marriage, I think most gays (and gay rights supporters) believe Obama is really in favor of gay marriage, but understand that he has to equivocate on this issue. As a gay rights supporter myself, that's how I see it.

I doubt that. Most gay rights supporters may have seen that to begin with, but have seemingly come to the realization that Obama's seeming equivocation on the marriage issue wasn't political but an actual political belief - gay rights, but no marriage... and on the rights stuff he's dragging his feet (Don't Ask, Don't Tell - anyone?).

[Groundhog]

We've got our election tomorrow and it's pretty interesting because one of the two contenders is a self-confessed Atheist (and female, and rumoured to maybe even be a lesbian), while the other studied to become a priest at one point and is still very religious. I don't like either of them, but will probably vote for the Atheist solely because I think it takes some guts to come out and admit to something like that, even in Australia.

But overall, I feel like it's our own version of the Kerry-Bush 2004 presidential election, where I'm going to either just submit a blank vote, or vote for the person I dislike the least.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Not too harsh - Rainmaker's actually figured out that the human species has figured out everything there is to know about the universe, and that any further philosophical or spiritual reflection is stupid. (Which actually makes him more enlightened than Einstein, so it's a real honor to have him posting on this board)

You are confusing religion and science. We have not come close to discovering everything there is to know about the universe. But we have learned enough to know that the stuff in many religions has no scientific facts to support it.

Originally Posted by molson

Though he is wrong about the religion going away part - Islam is growing and spreading geographically (both the religious part, and the culture and way of looking at the world that it has inspired)

We are near the bottom of the list in terms of beliefs in something as basic as evolution.

The New York Times > Science > Image > Chart: Belief in Evolution, by Country

Yes, Islam is spreading in parts of the world, but it's still a religion that particularly influences poor countries. In fact, most religion is entrenched in poorer country. We are really the only country that has wealth and embraces religion so much.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by panerd

I would think his view on organized religion would just put him along side most of the world’s philosophers who consider it quite silly. How some people take a criticism of the absurdity of organized religion as some sort of answer to the universe's mysteries has always astounded me. The only people I see saying they know the truth and have figured it all out all tend to be the religious.

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone could take the statement "Most other civilized countries have started trending away from the fairy tales" and understand why others would be in the least bit offended. Clearly it was a deep and nuanced statement reflecting only on organized religion meant to provoke rigorous philosophical debate.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

A 65-27 lead for Boozman over incumbent Blance Lincoln in the latest Arkansas Senate poll. While I don't imagine those will hold up quite that strong, it did make me wonder about something ... anybody know what the record for margin of defeat for a sitting Senator is? Or for an incumbent Rep for that matter?

[miked]

Wiki tells me...

Santorum was defeated 59% to 41% in the 2006 U.S. Senate election by Democratic candidate Bob Casey, Jr. This was the largest margin of defeat for an incumbent Senator since 1980.

Looks like in South Dakota in 1980, James Abdnor (R) defeated incumbent George McGovern (D) 58.2% to 39.4%.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A 65-27 lead for Boozman over incumbent Blance Lincoln in the latest Arkansas Senate poll. While I don't imagine those will hold up quite that strong, it did make me wonder about something ... anybody know what the record for margin of defeat for a sitting Senator is? Or for an incumbent Rep for that matter?

Lincoln's plan of alienating the people who would normally vote for her is working well, I see.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Lincoln's plan of alienating the people who would normally vote for her is working well, I see.

Yeah. Lincoln has been revealed through her primary and through her actions as a sleazeball, so I don't necessarily see this as a huge surprise.

I'm still pissed off that she managed to eek out a victory in her primary.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I doubt that. Most gay rights supporters may have seen that to begin with, but have seemingly come to the realization that Obama's seeming equivocation on the marriage issue wasn't political but an actual political belief - gay rights, but no marriage... and on the rights stuff he's dragging his feet (Don't Ask, Don't Tell - anyone?).

I think there's a few things in play here.

First, I agree that I think Obama doesn't believe in gay marriage, though he may be fine with civil unions. People forget that Obama's a relatively religious guy, and I really wouldn't be surprised if he would, on one hand, agree that gay couples should have equal protections but that, on the other hand, religious shouldn't be forced to re-define marriage by the government. I would note that a number of people here hold effectively the same viewpoint.

With DADT, I think it's more calculation. He has only so much political capital to use to move the DoD along on a large number of issues, and he's just not going to spend it to make this issue get resolved a year earlier than it (probably) is going to be.

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone could take the statement "Most other civilized countries have started trending away from the fairy tales" and understand why others would be in the least bit offended. Clearly it was a deep and nuanced statement reflecting only on organized religion meant to provoke rigorous philosophical debate.

SI

Indeed - it's just trolling.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You are confusing religion and science. We have not come close to discovering everything there is to know about the universe. But we have learned enough to know that the stuff in many religions has no scientific facts to support it.

Einstein, (and many physicists) were/are quite intruiged by the connection between things they sought to understand in their fields and a concept that billions experience as "god" or "religion". Certainly, we're not at the level of understanding where we've nailed down that connection (well you apparently are, but the rest of us aren't.)

I just see writing off what billions have attempted to understand as "fairy tails" as far more arrogant and weak-minded than anything you constantly accuse of others.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Indeed - it's just trolling.

Ding ding ding

[JediKooter]

Only in america would it be considered trolling...

[Kodos]

If you don't happen to believe in God (I don't), that's fine, but you don't have to be so disrespectful of others who do believe in his existence.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Kodos

If you don't happen to believe in God (I don't), that's fine, but you don't have to be so disrespectful of others who do believe in his existence.

Funny since the topic of the thread over the last week has been about a bunch of people disrespecting others rights to have a building where they can pray to their God.

Seems sort of like a double standard. If an atheist dare say anything about religion, it's disrespectful. Yet I can't turn on the news without hearing about some religious organization protesting something they don't like.

I could care less what someone believes. Just don't understand how one side is allowed to have opinions on everything and no one can say a word, but if the other says anything, they're disrespectful.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Funny since the topic of the thread over the last week has been about a bunch of people disrespecting others rights to have a building where they can pray to their God.

Seems sort of like a double standard. If an atheist dare say anything about religion, it's disrespectful. Yet I can't turn on the news without hearing about some religious organization protesting something they don't like.

I could care less what someone believes. Just don't understand how one side is allowed to have opinions on everything and no one can say a word, but if the other says anything, they're disrespectful.

Winner.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Funny since the topic of the thread over the last week has been about a bunch of people disrespecting others rights to have a building where they can pray to their God.

Seems sort of like a double standard. If an atheist dare say anything about religion, it's disrespectful. Yet I can't turn on the news without hearing about some religious organization protesting something they don't like.

I could care less what someone believes. Just don't understand how one side is allowed to have opinions on everything and no one can say a word, but if the other says anything, they're disrespectful.

No doubt...

"I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by panerd

No doubt...

"I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Can I play too?

""I contend that we are all anarchist. I just believe in one fewer form of government than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible governments, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Seems sort of like a double standard. If an atheist dare say anything about religion, it's disrespectful. Yet I can't turn on the news without hearing about some religious organization protesting something they don't like.

I could care less what someone believes. Just don't understand how one side is allowed to have opinions on everything and no one can say a word, but if the other says anything, they're disrespectful.

Well, you started by calling people "fucking stupid". If you don't expect (or actually, desire) a response to that, then I don't know what to tell you.

You clearly care deeply what people believe. You are clearly disturbed by people who believe anything. For what reason, I don't know, but you clearly have that hostility.

And WTF - "one side is allowed to have opinions on everything and no one can say word"...WTF are you talking about? Nobody's allowed to criticize religious institutions? Criticize away. Anyone can criticize. Just don't group everyone who doesn't share your exact view of the world as beneath you, and not expect some kind of retort. We're allowed to criticize that kind of closed-mindedness.

Just because someone responds to your trolling that doesn't mean you're "not allowed to say anything".