POTUS 2016 General Election Discussion Thread

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Maybe his ego won't let him do it. He'd be a quitter in his mind and deserving of ridicule. So he has to become so outrageous as to force people to vote for HRC.

I don't know how his mind works....but doesn't seem to need much more than that to me.

I think we have tor remember with him that he was a celebrity for a long time before he became a politician, and at times still acts like one. He clearly loves the adulation/applause and is probably reluctant to give that up any time soon. He's a business man too, so losing would be like losing out on a big deal. He acts too much like the godfather or mafia kingpin too.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So speaking of weird shit, how about a conspiracy of epic proportions? What if we find out that Hillary and Trump were in cahoots the whole time, then what?

I did hear this morning on Morning Joe that Bill Clinton and Trump talked on the phone before he announced he'd run and Bill urged him to do so...

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by panerd

Trump Campaign Ponders Going Negative - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

what a minute, is that supposed to be a serious article from the Onion? what is this world coming to?

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by mckerney

It's getting harder by the day to tell which headlines are real.

Report: Trump Kept Asking During Foreign Policy Briefing Why He Can’t Just Use Nukes

I kept looking for an indication that this one was a spoof. Outside of the source being one I'm not familiar with, I didn't find any.

[JPhillips]

How much money would it take for Donald to walk away? 10 mil? 100 mil? 1 billion?

And how much would it be worth to GOP donors to make him walk away? I'm thinking a billion to get him out would be worth it for all parties.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I kept looking for an indication that this one was a spoof. Outside of the source being one I'm not familiar with, I didn't find any.

Seems like Joe Scarborough is the source of this story. It'll be interesting to see if this gets picked up or if it's just a rumor.

Trump asks "Why can't we use nuclear weapons" - YouTube

[Atocep]

Senior GOP Officials Exploring Options if Trump Drops Out - ABC News

It's so bad right now the GOP is starting to make contingency plans in case he drops out. It sounds like it would have to happen in the next month or Hillary would basically end up running unopposed in November.

[mckerney]

Trump Allies Plot Candidate Intervention After Disastrous 48 Hours - NBC News

Key Republicans close to Donald Trump's orbit are plotting an intervention with the candidate after a disastrous 48 hours led some influential voices in the party to question whether Trump can stay at the top of the Republican ticket without catastrophic consequences for his campaign and the GOP at large.

Republican National Committee head Reince Priebus, former Republican New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich are among the Trump endorsers hoping to talk the real estate mogul into a dramatic reset of his campaign in the coming days, sources tell NBC News.

The group of GOP heavyweights hopes to enlist the help of Trump's children - who comprise much of his innermost circle of influential advisers - to aid in the attempt to rescue his candidacy. Trump's family is considered to have by far the most influence over the candidate's thinking at what could be a make-or-break moment for his campaign.

The idea is in its early stages, and there's no guarantee that Trump's team would entertain a conversation requiring such comprehensive changes for a candidate who has resisted calls to moderate his tone or reel in his most outlandish political positions.

Stunned Republicans began seriously considering the idea of an exit ramp after an extraordinary few days during which Trump continually lashed out against a Gold Star family critical of his position on Muslim immigration, declared that he'd "always wanted" a Purple Heart but that it's "easier" to receive one as a gift, and declined to endorse top Republican candidates including House Speaker Paul Ryan.

Sources in the candidate's orbit tell NBC News Trump is aware of the dissatisfaction within the party. But while some labeled the state of affairs "Crazytown" and "worse than ever," they also described a sense of powerlessness, bemoaning the fact there's "nothing that we can do, that anybody can do right now."

There's absolutely no indication Trump is considering leaving the race, a move that would seem wildly out of character for a candidate who has prided himself on "winning" and grasped at any poll that shows him dominating an opponent. Still, some Republicans are quietly considering the arcane mechanics of what would happen to the party's ticket if Trump was to leave the presidential race.

Adviser Kellyanne Conway disputed the notion that Trump would bolt the ticket, saying "I would push back on any formal report that the candidate is going to leave the race."

And it's clear that deep unease within the Republican Party is continuing to fester, despite party officials' efforts to turn the corner with a parade of "unity" pageantry of the GOP convention two weeks ago.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Seems like Joe Scarborough is the source of this story. It'll be interesting to see if this gets picked up or if it's just a rumor.

Trump asks "Why can't we use nuclear weapons" - YouTube

Yeah I saw it live this morning when he mentioned the story.

Not that Scarborough has an ax to grind with Trump, but it's always questionable when you hear a story relayed from an unnamed source. Though it is concerning if true.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I did hear this morning on Morning Joe that Bill Clinton and Trump talked on the phone before he announced he'd run and Bill urged him to do so...

Which would be a saavy move by Bill, if true.

Worst case, Trump adds a bit of crazy to the early nomination process that taints an eventual nominee.

Middle case, he stays in the primary race for a while and turns it into a circus (and not in a good way).

Best case, he becomes the nominee, and what we're seeing happen, happens.


Say you have a friend who's a misogynist who thinks he has game with the ladies but really, really, does not. At a bar, he says he should go over and chat up that group of hot ladies. You tell him he should definitely do it because of the hilarity when he crashes and burns.

[mckerney]

Trump managed to do all this in just 24 hours.

List of controversial moments surrounding Trump and his campaign in the last 24 hours. https://t.co/dwrgBotCI0 pic.twitter.com/Cxch2FJdas

— NBC Nightly News (@NBCNightlyNews) August 3, 2016

Imagine what he could manage to accomplish in the next 97 days.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Gary Johnson has to be loving this. He could get a real boost from people looking for an option outside of Hillary. Comes at a great time too where he could get into the debates with a small boost.

[Suicane75]

I'm far from knowledgeable in this stuff, but it would seem to me that Johnson needs money, something to get him some time somewhere to really get his name out there. I'd figured that we'd already reached a point with the internet/social media etc. that it would be much easier for a fringe candidate to get recognition but I'm not seeing it yet.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I'm far from knowledgeable in this stuff, but it would seem to me that Johnson needs money, something to get him some time somewhere to really get his name out there. I'd figured that we'd already reached a point with the internet/social media etc. that it would be much easier for a fringe candidate to get recognition but I'm not seeing it yet.

In my opinion we are close to Mitt Romney endorsing the Libertarian ticket. (The VP candidate and Romney are close from their days as governors in Massachusetts).

Mitt Romney: I wish Bill Weld were at the top of the Libertarian ticket

This will likely cause two things...

1. A big swing in the polls from Trump and big donors coming board.
2. The end of the libertarian party as we know it. I would guess not many people that voted for Johnson in 2012 would vote in 2016 with Romneys endorsement.

It's interesting that nobody has flipped from Trump to a basically social liberal republican lite. I think it says as much about the despiration for some to hold onto the two party system at all costs. Why else would they endorse Clinton for president who holds basically none of their views? (Maybe I'm naive and the war mongers would prefer Clinton even if that is the only view she has in common with them?)

[JonInMiddleGA]

So NBC goes to the trouble of putting together that list ... and the most troubling thing on it is, what, the crying baby? Which should have been taken out of the room by a responsible parent in the first place.

If the list is that laughable to someone who isn't going to vote for the guy, imagine how comical it seems to people that are.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I'm far from knowledgeable in this stuff, but it would seem to me that Johnson needs money, something to get him some time somewhere to really get his name out there. I'd figured that we'd already reached a point with the internet/social media etc. that it would be much easier for a fringe candidate to get recognition but I'm not seeing it yet.

Perhaps the issue isn't the medium(s) but rather, oh ... the message?

At some point it should seem rather obvious that the issue with our fringe parties isn't "the system" or tactics but rather that they are taking positions that are simply not appealing to the vast majority of the U.S. voters.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Perhaps the issue isn't the medium(s) but rather, oh ... the message?

At some point it should seem rather obvious that the issue with our fringe parties isn't "the system" or tactics but rather that they are taking positions that are simply not appealing to the vast majority of the U.S. voters.

It'll be obvious when the playing field is anything near equal and nothing changes. Then I'll concede your point.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Gary Johnson has to be loving this. He could get a real boost from people looking for an option outside of Hillary. Comes at a great time too where he could get into the debates with a small boost.

I think he's been too nice. Running the typical smaller party just happy to be here campaign. He's got a platform tonight on CNN. I hope he goes hard at both candidates. Actually try to look like a serious candidate in the election and not just a protest vote.

I think the Libertarian Party hampers his campaign though. Would be better if a candidate was just an Independent.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Perhaps the issue isn't the medium(s) but rather, oh ... the message?

At some point it should seem rather obvious that the issue with our fringe parties isn't "the system" or tactics but rather that they are taking positions that are simply not appealing to the vast majority of the U.S. voters.

I have two thoughts...

1) I'm not going to claim there is some sort of silent majority of Libertarian minded people being held down in this country by the two party system that would somehow make up 40-50% of the electorate. But by the same token its a load of shit to think that only a fraction of one percent hold their views on smaller government, ending the drug war, etc. It's clearly a lessor of two evils system.

2) Which brings me to point #2. You are the poster child for why the two party system is so effective. It is so much easier for somebody to view the world as black and white and say "look at JiMGa that's why I vote Democrat" or "look at Steve Bollea/Mrs. Bigglsworth and thats why I vote Republican". You are likely the most replied to poster on this board and it's not because you hold some interesting nuanced view on politcal topics. You are extreme and people feel good thinking you represent "the other side" Start throwing in 4-5 choices and now it doesn't have to be Jon vs nol, but actual real choices. They do it in both parties primaries and weed out candidates it's insane that they refuse to do it in the general election.

[RainMaker]

This comes from Jeb Bush's national security guy. He's no moderate either. Staunch conservative and very hawkish.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think he's been too nice. Running the typical smaller party just happy to be here campaign. He's got a platform tonight on CNN. I hope he goes hard at both candidates. Actually try to look like a serious candidate in the election and not just a protest vote.

I think the Libertarian Party hampers his campaign though. Would be better if a candidate was just an Independent.

Ballot access is the hardest part of being a non-two party candidate in the US and we make it harder with the myriad rules, systems and deterrents to letting more people into the race.

So the best bet is to align with a third party that's already got ballot access or a ground game to make such access possible. And in contrast to say, Bob Barr, Johnson is actually plausibly Libertarian in some of his stances so it's not exactly an odd fit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

It'll be obvious when the playing field is anything near equal and nothing changes. Then I'll concede your point.

{shakes head} If that fantasy makes you happy, by all means, stick with it.

But reality is that 80-90 percent of the U.S. (and even more of the likely voters) are neither neo-anarchists like the damned fool Johnson nor utterly batshit crazy like Stein.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

In my opinion we are close to Mitt Romney endorsing the Libertarian ticket. (The VP candidate and Romney are close from their days as governors in Massachusetts).

I actually doubt that. I don't think Romney is going to back someone who is for same-sex marriage and legalizing weed, regardless of how much he doesn't like Trump.

[ISiddiqui]

And yes, for Libertarians and Greens the message is holding them back. If their message was more appealing to people, they'd be prominent Republicans (and Johnson was a minor stature Republican at some point) or Democrats, not running on a third party. The fact is that there isn't much mainstream support for those views - it would have been adopted by the major parties if there was.

[JPhillips]

If nothing else, Trump really has exposed how little support there is for the libertarian republican message of fiscal conservatism and social liberalism.

[larrymcg421]

As I posted before, a system that would let someone win 34-33-32 or 22-21-20-19-18 is an incredibly stupid system. We need electoral reform if we want that many parties involved. Our system is dumb enough with the two parties we have. I like that Maine ranked candidate initiative.

Also, we really need to overturn Citizens United if we want that many parties. With it in place, the corporate parties will always rise to the top.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And yes, for Libertarians and Greens the message is holding them back. If their message was more appealing to people, they'd be prominent Republicans (and Johnson was a minor stature Republican at some point) or Democrats, not running on a third party. The fact is that there isn't much mainstream support for those views - it would have been adopted by the major parties if there was.

I would say they hold a lot of views the majority of Americans hold there are just gutless politicians on both sides who need a landslide of Americans to voice those views before they jump in and claim them as new and fresh...

Open border immigration policies?
Campaign finance reform?
Gay marriage?
Ending bailouts?
Consumption tax?
Privacy from government spy agencies?
Marijuana legalization?
Staying clear of the Middle East?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

I would say they hold a lot of views the majority of Americans hold there are just gutless politicians on both sides who need a landslide of Americans to voice those views before they jump in and claim them as new and fresh...

Open border immigration policies?
Campaign finance reform?
Gay marriage?
Ending bailouts?
Consumption tax?
Privacy from government spy agencies?
Marijuana legalization?
Staying clear of the Middle East?

Libertarian Party members booed Johnson for saying he supported the Civil Rights Act and the concept of Drivers Licenses.

Sure they might support some things the public likes, but they also support a bunch of batshit crazy stuff the public doesn't like.

[digamma]

You're kind of leaving out the big ones of eliminating Social Security, Medicare and the IRS.

[RainMaker]

James Weeks Strips at Libertarian Party National Convention Drops out of race for Chairman 5/29/16 - YouTube

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

I would say they hold a lot of views the majority of Americans hold there are just gutless politicians on both sides who need a landslide of Americans to voice those views before they jump in and claim them as new and fresh...

Open border immigration policies?
Campaign finance reform?
Gay marriage?
Ending bailouts?
Consumption tax?
Privacy from government spy agencies?
Marijuana legalization?
Staying clear of the Middle East?

In the GOP primaries, you had a candidate who, yes, didn't back all of these, but was definitely very pro-libertarian on a lot of these in Rand Paul. He got destroyed.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by digamma

You're kind of leaving out the big ones of eliminating Social Security, Medicare and the IRS.

Also eliminating the minimum wage.

[RainMaker]

And Johnson might not want to fight a war in the Middle East but he said he wants to go to war with North Korea. So he isn't an isolationist by any measure.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by digamma

You're kind of leaving out the big ones of eliminating Social Security, Medicare and the IRS.

I could be mistaken but I believe the Libertairian party is the only party that actually would keep social security out of the general fund. People don't seem to have a problem with labor union employees having their own retirement system why can't smaller less politically connected individuals make the same choice?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

James Weeks Strips at Libertarian Party National Convention Drops out of race for Chairman 5/29/16 - YouTube

So what? Every party has nut cases. The GOP has Donald Trump running for president!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

I could be mistaken but I believe the Libertairian party is the only party that actually would keep social security out of the general fund. People don't seem to have a problem with labor union employees having their own retirement system why can't smaller less politically connected individuals make the same choice?

How popular do you think semi-privatizing social security is?

That's the problem when Libertarians say lots of people like their platform; for the really unpopular stuff they shift goalposts REAL FAST.

[lungs]

I worked on one Libertarian campaign when I was in college. It's probably telling that the weirdness of the party turned me off, as I'm hardly normal. But there were just some crazy ass kooks. I can get along with a good chunk of the libertarian philosophy but the rest is just so completely off the rails that they are no longer even a consideration for me.

[cuervo72]

Platform | Libertarian Party

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become even more charitable and civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

Uh uh. I'm SURE that would happen.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And Johnson might not want to fight a war in the Middle East but he said he wants to go to war with North Korea. So he isn't an isolationist by any measure.

I think he just wants a declaration of war from Congress. (Who are too gutless to risk relegation) Instead of some emperor like statement that every military action in the Middle East falls under some end around of the war powers act.

[larrymcg421]

I loved the story from last week where William Weld said that Johnson would appoint justices like Merrick Garland and Stephen Breyer. Breyer's entire judicial philosophy is almost the direct opposite of Libertarian.

Johnson himself has said he would favor someone with an "original intent" approach, which makes Johnson a non starter for me, even if I didn't already disagree with him on a number of other issues.

[cuervo72]

2.2 Environment

Competitive free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Governments are unaccountable for damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights and responsibilities regarding resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Where damages can be proven and quantified in a court of law, restitution to the injured parties must be required.

Again, lol. I don't know -- a lot of this platform seems to rely on people and corporations self-policing for the cause of the common good. That's...rather pollyanna.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by lungs

It's probably telling that the weirdness of the party turned me off, as I'm hardly normal. But there were just some crazy ass kooks.

You don't say.

Spoiler

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Platform | Libertarian Party



Uh uh. I'm SURE that would happen.

Of course it would, just like the free market would have ended segregation, business discrimination, and ensured minority voting rights.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Again, lol. I don't know -- a lot of this platform seems to rely on people and corporations self-policing for the cause of the common good. That's...rather pollyanna.

I mean we have direct evidence that it works when the financial industry self-policed themselves after many of their regulations were loosened. Why wouldn't it work everywhere else?

[JPhillips]

And on the other side pro-choice and anti-death penalty eliminates a good 30-40% of the population.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

James Weeks Strips at Libertarian Party National Convention Drops out of race for Chairman 5/29/16 - YouTube

This would be better if he poured raw milk over himself.

[Atocep]

Johnson is also against net neutrality and mandatory vaccinations.

Letting companies police themselves trusting them to do what's best for the people is naive.

Allowing stupid people to not vaccinate their kids so that mostly dead viruses can reach their highest outbreak levels in 100 years is criminal.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Johnson is also against net neutrality and mandatory vaccinations.

Letting companies police themselves trusting them to do what's best for the people is naive.

Allowing stupid people to not vaccinate their kids so that mostly dead viruses can reach their highest outbreak levels in 100 years is criminal.

Of all the stupid things in this stupid election, only having one candidate be unequivocally pro-vaccination is the stupidest.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I mean we have direct evidence that it works when the financial industry self-policed themselves after many of their regulations were loosened. Why wouldn't it work everywhere else?

Why would they when the D's and R's will bend over backwards to bail them out?

[JAG]

Psh, I think you guys are just trying to drag down Gary Johnson's strong FOFC polling numbers with your negative attacks.

I did see my first Jill Stein ad this morning, where she spent most of the time bashing Clinton and saying you didn't have to pick the lesser of two evils.

[cuervo72]

Why We Needed A Bailout