2007-08 NBA Playoffs thread

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

If A-Rod wins a World Series in six, and hits .310 with 2 HR and 6 RBIs during the series, does he shake the choker label?

Kevin Garnett's postseason play prior to this year >>>>>>>>> ARod's postseason play prior to this year.

[Oilers9911]

So let me get this straight, the not at all clutch KG is an NBA Champion today while the ultra clutch best player in the world Kobe Bryant was on the receiving end of a historic beatdown. I guess i'd rather be considered not clutch then.

[Noop]

I got to admit watching the Celtics championship ceremony was wonderful. Bill Russell is 100% class and my only regret is not being old enough to have seen him play. That exchange between Garnett and him was great and for Garnett to take the time to hug Bill in the mist of winning his first championship was amazing.

Garnett's post game interview on the court was great as well because you can literally see the weight being lifted of his shoulders. "Anything is possible," he won this for all the people who believed in him. Pierce and Allen should have shared the MVP but it was a good choice.

This team was destined win this championship I believe because they have overcome so much. Watching that last night reminded me when I coached and won the championship. I have won championships as a player but never as a head coach but the looks on the players faces who for 3 years before me only lost was special. I was always indifferent toward the Celtics but last night I gained a ton of respect for their class and grace.

Great Job.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

I don't care about one game blips on the radar. i'm referring to the regular season avg vs. the postseason avg.

anyone can have a huge game through 3 rounds of the playoffs. can you avg big games and elevate your stats through the entire postseason? that's the question.

Except it wasn't a one game blip on the radar. I showed 7 consecutive games in the postseason, which were the 7 biggest games of his career before this season, and he delivered in those games.

[DaddyTorgo]

Noop - you're right. KG's exchange with Russell was pure-class. Literally brought tears to my eyes. As were Pierce's comments about the old guard and what this means to him.

Originally Posted by Pierce

"I'm not living under the shadows of the other greats now," said Pierce. "I'm able to make my own history with my time here, and like I said, this is something that I wanted to do. If I was going to be one of the best Celtics to ever play, I had to put up a banner, and today we did that.
"They don't hang up any other banners but championship ones. And just all the years talking to Bill and John, Cousy, finally just I feel like we've come out of that shadow now and created our own, and now we can stand up and look them eye to eye and say, hey, we accomplished it, too."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Garnett

Kevin Garnett had this to say about the city he now calls home.
"Since day one, man, Paul [Pierce] told me that this city is unlike any other city when it comes to sports, and you give them a reason, they will jump on and they will be behind you even when you're losing or even when you're going through tough times. I got to see that.
I thought I played in front of some good crowds, and Boston has a special place. I'll be forever linked to this city, and I'm more than grateful for that."

and we're greatful for that too big man

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ESPN Daily Dime sidebar

QUOTE OF THE NIGHT
"I got my own. I got my own. I hope we made you proud."

-- Celtics forward Kevin Garnett talking to 11-time NBA champion Bill Russell immediately after the game

tears to my eyes

[DaddyTorgo]

Chris Sheridan also has a whimsical and touching piece in the Daily Dime about someone lighting up a cigar and nobody knowing who and imagining it was the ghost of Red.

[DaddyTorgo]

quint-dola

at the rolling rally tomorrow they're having 2 flatbed trucks (one w/ dancers), and one with past celtics greats AND past championship trophies. So they're going to have the old-timers up there with 16 nba trophies...frigging sweet!

[larrymcg421]

So, I was thinking about how the Celtics would have done if they didn't make these trades. Last year's team had a horrible record, but was ravaged with injuries. How would this team have done this year if they stayed healthy?

PG: Rondo/West
SG: T. Allen/Szczerbiak
SF: Pierce
PF: Gomes/Powe
C: Jefferson/Perkins

Or how about the team without the trade for Garnett...

PG: Rondo
SG: R. Allen
SF: Pierce
PF: Gomes/Powe
C: Jefferson/Perkins

[molson]

My guess:

No Trades: 38 wins, lose in 1st round of playoffs
Garnett Trade only: 52 wins, lose in conference finals
Allen Trade only: 43 wins, lose in 1st round of playoffs

[MikeVic]

They don't have a title without all three of those main guys.

[Young Drachma]

Kobe will scream for more help after this. He clearly can't do it alone.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Kobe will scream for more help after this. He clearly can't do it alone.

Or he'll demand to be traded again.

[MikeVic]

No, I think Kobe is just a bit more mature now.

[DaddyTorgo]

comcast sports net had an interview with Lenny Clarke (Boston comedian) on the street, live after the game, and you can tell someone wasn't quite quick enough on the "bleep" button, because the reporter asked him for his thoughts, and one of the nuggets he threw out was "guess God doesn't like rapists"

I kind of...did a double-take when that made it through...lol

[Icy]

And there went the hopes for every Spanish NBA fan of Gasol wearing the first champ ring for a Spanish ever, maybe next year...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

So let me get this straight, the not at all clutch KG is an NBA Champion today while the ultra clutch best player in the world Kobe Bryant was on the receiving end of a historic beatdown. I guess i'd rather be considered not clutch then.

Kobe= 3 championship rings
KG= 1

[Kodos]

Kobe=rape charges
KG=no rape charges

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Except it wasn't a one game blip on the radar. I showed 7 consecutive games in the postseason, which were the 7 biggest games of his career before this season, and he delivered in those games.

so missing 2 must-hit free throws at the very end of Game 5 is what you call delivering?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Kobe=rape charges
KG=no rape charges

Kodos=faggot
Hell Atlantic=awesome


and we're not discussing off-the-court transgressions or quality of character here. Rasheed Wallace is one of the biggest pricks in the league, and he has a ring too.


with the game on the line - i'm picking Kobe Bryant over KG every day of the week and twice on a saturday double header.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

Rasheed Wallace is one of the biggest pricks in the league, and he has a ring too.

I guess you have something to aspire to then.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

so missing 2 must-hit free throws at the very end of Game 5 is what you call delivering?

What are you talking about? I specifically mentioned that I had listed 7 consecutive playoff games he had played BEFORE this season, and your retort was to point out how bad he did in a game THIS season. If you can't argue with what is actually being said, then why are you bothering to participate in the discussion?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

Kobe= 3 championship rings
KG= 1

Brian Scalabrine = 1 championship ring (someone predicted this example earlier)
Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone = 0 championship rings

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What are you talking about? I specifically mentioned that I had listed 7 consecutive playoff games he had played BEFORE this season, and your retort was to point out how bad he did in a game THIS season. If you can't argue with what is actually being said, then why are you bothering to participate in the discussion?

and how many rings did KG win in all those other seasons? he is known for coming up short in the big games, on the big possessions. this is not anything new. why are you trying to rewrite history?

lost in all this KG lovefest is that Paul Pierce - the real heart and soul of the team - actually elevated his game to the next level and can now be mentioned in one of those "if you can to pick one player to win a championship for you, who would you pick?" type of questions.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i'm just glad the Patriots didn't win the Super Bowl (that my NY Giants won, ahhh thank you very much). if that happened, i would've had to take road trip to blow up Boston.

Cartoon Network already tried and failed. Boston is on alert for those kinds of tricks.

[molson]

KG's not a guy that carries a team on his back. I don't know why that's some kind of knock against him, that's 99% of the league.

He's a superior defensive player. Combine that with a superior offensive player like Pierce, and that's a good start for a team.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Kobe will scream for more help after this. He clearly can't do it alone.

Just like Kevin Garnett will ask to be traded?

[MrBug708]

Then you'll contend that Kobe never asked Shaq to be traded right?

I'm assuming you see my point...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That's interesting because his postseason line is 21.6/12.4/4.4, while his regular season line is only 20.4/11.2/4.4

In his biggest series before this season, the conference finals against the Lakers, Garnett put up 16, 24, 28, 30, 22 points and had rebound totals of 10, 11, 11, 13, 19, 17.

In the game 7 clincher that got Minnesota to the conference finals, Garnett put up 32 points, 21 rebounds, 4 steals, and 5 blocks.

So you mention the Game 7, but not that conference finals?

Look, I think KG is terrific, but he has never shown himself to be the "get on my back and let's go" guy. He always performs consistently. That's why his numbers in the postseason are essentially the same as regular season. He does what he does, and he does it well.

But he didn't get the no big game rep from me. This is something that has been pinned on him for some time now by people who pay a lot more attention than you or I do.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

dola

It just seems silly to declare "Garnett can't play in the clutch!" when Kobe was NOT GOOD this series, despite the few moments you manage to pick out earlier. He had one good game?

You try and do something in a game when a very good defensive team is throwing everything at you, and your teammates all decide to suck.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So you mention the Game 7, but not that conference finals?

Is there a problem with my posts that people for some reason can only read part of them? I listed his point totals and rebounds for all 6 games of that conference finals.

But he didn't get the no big game rep from me. This is something that has been pinned on him for some time now by people who pay a lot more attention than you or I do.

Oh come on, that's a cop out. If we just concede to the conventional wisdom, then what's the point of even having this discussion in the first place? Joe Morgan pays alot more attention to baseball than I do, but I can still say with confidence that he's said some of the dumbest things about the sport ever.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You try and do something in a game when a very good defensive team is throwing everything at you, and your teammates all decide to suck.

Why can this excuse be used for Kobe and not KG?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I was only replying to CR's statement regarding Garnett not showing up during big games, stating that he does show up and makes big plays, just that he prefers to pass out of taking the big shots and the big plays during the final moments.

The point is that he disappears during the end of games. Taking control of a game in the final moments of a close game is not exactly one of his strengths. I'm merely pointing out that it clearly is a facet of his game that other teams have taken advantage of for the past, what, 13 seasons?

Thank god that the Celtics have been able to cover that weakness impressively this season, surrounding him with reliable shooters, something he clearly did not have in Minnesotta.

I'm happy for KG, he finally got his, and he deserves it 100%. That doesn't make him any better in the clutch, though.

+1

This post actually encapsulates pretty well my impression.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Why can this excuse be used for Kobe and not KG?

Because none of it is true with KG.

A) The Lakers are not a good defensive team
B) The Lakers did not throw everything at KG
C) KG's teammates don't suck

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Because none of it is true with KG.

A) The Lakers are not a good defensive team
B) The Lakers did not throw everything at KG
C) KG's teammates don't suck

What I meant was before this series, when he was with Minnesota. He doesn't need an excuse for this series, because he and his teammates kicked LA's ass, including a dominant performance by KG in the clincher.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Is there a problem with my posts that people for some reason can only read part of them? I listed his point totals and rebounds for all 6 games of that conference finals.



Oh come on, that's a cop out. If we just concede to the conventional wisdom, then what's the point of even having this discussion in the first place? Joe Morgan pays alot more attention to baseball than I do, but I can still say with confidence that he's said some of the dumbest things about the sport ever.

Sorry, I missed your post of those stats. I don't keep larrymcg421 posts open in separate browser windows for easy recall.

I am just saying he isn't the go-getter type with a killer instinct. Pierce and Allen displayed that much more than he did, and he has a career of generally not singlehandedly elevating his team to victory.

Maybe he did well in that conference finals. Maybe he showed up last night. Okay, if he's got that killer instinct, how come the T'Wolves continued to suck every other year? McHale is bad, but come on, no one's that bad. How come KG didn't carry this team past a miserable Hawks team in less than seven games, or an overmatched Cavs team?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What I meant was before this series, when he was with Minnesota. He doesn't need an excuse for this series, because he and his teammates kicked LA's ass, including a dominant performance by KG in the clincher.

But he didn't do it in Minnesota either. 2004 is one year. He was drafted by the Wolves in 1996.

[BishopMVP]

I think it's silly to compare KG to Kobe, Pierce, Jordan, DWade, LeBron or any other guard/SF who penetrates and thus can take a game over in the final minutes. The only guy in the league you could compare him to is Tim Duncan (maybe Shaq, but if we're talking last 2 minutes, I think Garnett wins there), and he wasn't able to take over games once Manu Ginobili was injured. Post guys rely on teammates to get them the ball, and thus don't have the opportunity to take over games like a swingman/PG can.

Also, I thought KG did eventually ask to be traded/at least acceded to it after Glen Taylor came out and blamed him for the franchise's inability to win.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Kevin Garnett's postseason play prior to this year >>>>>>>>> ARod's postseason play prior to this year.

Except for those pesky years when he wasn't with the Yankees of course.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Kobe will scream for more help after this. He clearly can't do it alone.

Originally Posted by molson

Or he'll demand to be traded again.

I'll bet you both this won't happen, at least not this offseason.

I know it's easier for some to hate, though, so believe what you want.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

KG's not a guy that carries a team on his back. I don't know why that's some kind of knock against him, that's 99% of the league.

He's a superior defensive player. Combine that with a superior offensive player like Pierce, and that's a good start for a team.

Yup, I agree 100% with this post, too.

And Pierce is awesome. I always knew he was good, but he opened my eyes this postseason.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry, I missed your post of those stats. I don't keep larrymcg421 posts open in separate browser windows for easy recall.

Um, it was in the post that you quoted.

I am just saying he isn't the go-getter type with a killer instinct. Pierce and Allen displayed that much more than he did, and he has a career of generally not singlehandedly elevating his team to victory.

Maybe he did well in that conference finals. Maybe he showed up last night. Okay, if he's got that killer instinct, how come the T'Wolves continued to suck every other year? McHale is bad, but come on, no one's that bad. How come KG didn't carry this team past a miserable Hawks team in less than seven games, or an overmatched Cavs team?

Why is it KG's fault for these lapses? You give Allen and Pierce credit, but they were on the same team that went 7 games against the Hawks and Cavs. And neither of them have elevated their teams any further than KG prior to this postseason.

And what do you mean, no one is that bad? No one is bad enough to not build a championship contender over a 10 season span? Are you kidding me? Ithink lots of people are that bad, and it's a long list where McHale is certainly near the top, especially with Isiah out on his ass

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But he didn't do it in Minnesota either. 2004 is one year. He was drafted by the Wolves in 1996.

You're missing my entire point there. You made excuses for Kobe not delivering. Why don't those same exuses apply to KG's Minnesota career? Kobe got it done three times with Shaq. Plese tell me a omparable player that KG got to play with.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am just saying he isn't the go-getter type with a killer instinct. Pierce and Allen displayed that much more than he did, and he has a career of generally not singlehandedly elevating his team to victory.

Maybe he did well in that conference finals. Maybe he showed up last night. Okay, if he's got that killer instinct, how come the T'Wolves continued to suck every other year? McHale is bad, but come on, no one's that bad. How come KG didn't carry this team past a miserable Hawks team in less than seven games, or an overmatched Cavs team?

Because Ray Allen was jacking up shots and shooting like 15% those series.


As for the T-Wolves, between '97-'98 and '03-'04, they won between 44 and 58 games every year (not counting the lockout). KG was playing with luminaries like Stephon Marbury, Latrell Spreewell and Wally Sczerbiak as outside players. '03-'04 when he had Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson they won 58 and made it to the Conference Finals, where Cassell was injured and couldn't play. Meanwhile, once Shaq left, Kobe was glorified for taking the Lakers to 34, 45, 42 wins in a conference roughly equal in strength.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Except for those pesky years when he wasn't with the Yankees of course.

He had some great postseason games, but didn't win a championship. He had a lot more bad games, and still didn't win a championship. Also, I certainly hope no one would argue that KG has had supporting casts that even approach the talent that A-Rod has got to play with.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Except for those pesky years when he wasn't with the Yankees of course.

I think A-Rod is close to a perfect comparison. Neither of them really raised their game in the postseason, but the extent of their "struggles in the clutch" were magnified by the media and fans who latched on to the meme.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And Pierce is awesome. I always knew he was good, but he opened my eyes this postseason.

"Take this down," said O'Neal. "My name is Shaquille O'Neal and Paul Pierce is the motherfucking truth. Quote me on that and don't take nothing out. I knew he could play, but I didn't know he could play like this. Paul Pierce is the truth." - March 15, 2001

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Look, I think KG is terrific, but he has never shown himself to be the "get on my back and let's go" guy. He always performs consistently. That's why his numbers in the postseason are essentially the same as regular season. He does what he does, and he does it well.

Kobe's postseason numbers are actually worse than his regular season numbers:

Regular: 25.0/5.3/4.6

Post: 24.3/5.0/4.6

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Kobe's postseason numbers are actually worse than his regular season numbers:

Regular: 25.0/5.3/4.6

Post: 24.3/5.0/4.6

No, I would say those are pretty close to the same, too. The difference in both's numbers from their regular season this year isn't much.

If you don't think Kobe tries to take the ball at the end of games, though, you must have only watched the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. And in 2007. And in 2006. And in 2004. And in 2003. And in...well, you get the picture.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He had some great postseason games, but didn't win a championship. He had a lot more bad games, and still didn't win a championship. Also, I certainly hope no one would argue that KG has had supporting casts that even approach the talent that A-Rod has got to play with.

Honestly not sure how to compare. It's two different sports. Texas would probably be the closest comparison, with the M's and Yanks more on par with KG on the Celtics.

Point is, ARod didn't become some horrible clutch player until the NY media got a hold of him.