Brexit

[Thomkal]

May resigning as of June 7.

[miami_fan]

Next up: Prime Minister Boris Johnson

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Next up: Prime Minister Boris Johnson

Is that an approvement?

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Is that an approvement?

Who knows. Every Conservative wanted to wait for her to pull the trigger and then force her out so any mistakes were on her.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Is that an approvement?

Nope. Just an observation.

I think it will push things along in that Johnson along with Nigel Farage are more likely to push the UK to the brink of No Deal than May would. Whether that would be enough to scare the EU back to the negotiation table is debatable.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Is that an approvement?

Me fail English? That's unpossible!

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Me fail English? That's unpossible!

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Next up: Prime Minister Boris Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...prime-minister

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Boris Johnson elected new Tory leader | Politics | The Guardian

Don't come complaining here Brits when Johnson turns out to be Trump Redux.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Boris Johnson elected new Tory leader | Politics | The Guardian

My favorite comment from reddit is "There's no way this is the canon time-line"

[Brian Swartz]

Boris Johnson is no Trump. He's far too competent from everything I can see.

[JPhillips]

There seems to be a whole genre of video, Boris runs into things.

[JPhillips]

UKIP is going to be led by Dick Braine.

Sounds appropriate.

[JPhillips]

Johnson is planning to suspend parliament for a month so that the chances of parliament stopping Brexit on Oct. 31 are diminished.

I can't understand how determined some in the UK are to punch themselves in the face. They really don't have to fuck things up so much.

[JPhillips]

dola

Looks like a showdown coming. MPs and the speaker are pledging to stay in parliament and if the doors are locked they'll try to elect a new Prime Minister. The last time something like this happened was in the 1600s with King Charles.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

Looks like a showdown coming. MPs and the speaker are pledging to stay in parliament and if the doors are locked they'll try to elect a new Prime Minister. The last time something like this happened was in the 1600s with King Charles.

I find it interesting that even though polls show most people are against Brexit, that they also say that it would be wrong for parliament to ignore the will of the people and over-turn it. Politics in England is a strange strange beast.

[MIJB#19]

Yo, UK prime minister: be a man about it, admit the whole "Brexit" concept is an utter mistake and spare your and neighbouring countries' economies from the mess we're already seeing glimpses of.

[BishopMVP]

"I sincerely thank the right honourable gentleman for giving way, and I just wish to ask the upstanding gentleman with all due respect - and I mean with ALL due respect - if he realizes what an asshole he's being and how wrong he is. Now I shall sit back down and give way to the honourable gentleman for his response."

And no MIJB, Europeans putting pressure on the UK to avoid Brexit is not the way to keep them, and as pointed out most people seem to be against Brexit while also being in favor of going through with it.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I find it interesting that even though polls show most people are against Brexit, that they also say that it would be wrong for parliament to ignore the will of the people and over-turn it. Politics in England is a strange strange beast.

Yeah, I don't know if this is that strange. Are people in the streets demanding that we overthrow Trump and ignore any of his decisions despite the fact that polls suggest he has around a 40% approval rating and he didn't win a majority of the popular vote? Seems like a pretty common underpinning of democracy, no?

I'm a billion percent against Brexit and the complete clusterfuck that it entails, and think that putting it to a simple majority vote was absolutely the stupidest and most cowardly decision a sitting government has ever made, but I can certainly respect the viewpoint that it was a democratic vote under the parameters that were set out at the time and it should be respected.

[AlexB]

The whole thing’s a mess again:

Parliament is elected to deliver the will of the people, and are refusing to do this, thus not respecting UK democracy

At the same time they are right that the government is wrong in proroguing parliament at this particular time and for a length of time not seen since the 1970s, which also rides roughshod over UK democracy

Taking no-deal of the table is a stupid idea - it does undoubtedly means the EU has zero reason to renegotiate.
Imagine walking into a an estate agent saying you want a particular house, and you are legally bound to buy it, you cannot walk away without a deal - how good a deal will you get?
The EU has to believe no-deal is a possibility to renegotiate the clause within the backstop (phrased as such to clarify to avoid the confusion of a couple of months back ) that essentially keeps the UK within the EU until the EU says so. Which is a type of political purgatory that is undoubtedly worse than both remaining and no-deal.
(Edit to add - although BJ is doing a worryingly excellent job of selling a commitment to no-deal!)

The whole process has shown our MPs to be liars, incompetents, shamelessly self-interested and not fit for purpose ever since the referendum was announced, and regardless of the outcome, our democracy will be less respected than it was five years ago.

[bhlloy]

Does the EU have any reason to renegotiate anyway? And does Boris and the wing of the party that he represents actually want to negotiate in good faith?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Does the EU have any reason to renegotiate anyway? And does Boris and the wing of the party that he represents actually want to negotiate in good faith?

Yes if they are believe there could be no-deal, and genuinely not sure on the latter (see edit on my initial post that might have crossed with your reply - he’s worryingly convincing on the matter)

[JPhillips]

Johnson loses 328-301 and now a delay bill will be up soon.

I wonder if the threat to kick out Conservatives who voted against BoJo will be enforced.

[AlexB]

I think it was an SNP MP grinding BJs nose in the dirt asking him to ‘Respect the Vote’.

The irony, from the SNPs who refuse to do so to the two largest true “1 vote 1 voice” exercises in recent UK history.

I don’t know what the answer is, but it’s not this lot in the House (on either side)

[SirFozzie]

Someone has a great sense of political timing:

“We are on the verge of taking back control,” Johnson began. Just as Tory MP Phillip Lee rose from the Tory benches and crossed the floor of the house to join the Lib Dems. In that moment the Tories had lost their majority. Taking back control now looked rather like losing it completely. The crown had just got even more hollow."

[AlexB]

Two other points of note: BJ says he will call an election, Labour, who have just defeated him in his first vote, basically say that they will oppose the bill - I think they know they’re likely better off being in opposition with help from rebel Tories than they would be after an election. Which is kinda fucked up somehow.

And while I disagree with pretty much the whole last two weeks or so of political shenanigans, the only fitting way for it to end is for the rarely used UK filibuster equivalent of the House of Lords debating dozens of pointless amendments until there is no time to vote on the actual issue.

This can’t be the best way to run a country, and if it is, our party politics will get even more divided than they are now.

[miami_fan]

So the next step is a general election on Oct 14, no? Or was the PM just making idle threats?

[AlexB]

Maybe the 15th (the 14th is a Jewish holiday, so they’re delaying by a day)

But i don’t think the bill will get through parliament - more hypocrisy from the opposition. ‘Let the people decide’ seems to mean ‘let’s not ask the people after all, as we’re not that confident we’ll like the answer’

In terms of party politics it’s a good move for Labour to block an election: Corbyn is unelectable (although after Trump, who knows any more!) so they’re better off blocking everything with the aid of Tory rebels.

A GE is likely the only way we can actually move forward with Brexit (in either direction), and therefore the country as a whole, but they’re not convinced they will come out of it in a better political position than they are now, so it’s another example of our politicians refusing to act in the best interest of the country

[SirFozzie]

Possibly not.

Here's the thing, under the old system, the government can call for an election any time it liked (majority vote). It has a maximum term, but no minimum term.

Under the fixed term parliament act, it takes two thirds of the Parliament to agree to dissolve for an election before the term is up. All the opposition parties are saying "While we want an election, we're afraid you're going to deliberately screw things up (like, say moving the election date) to crash out deliberately on October 31st, so we're not going to agree to the election unless it's enshrined in law that you HAVE to ask for an extension"

Johnson does NOT want that (mostly because he wants to leave the EU come hell or highwater on October 31st, and tried pulling off a temporary shutdown to prevent just this from happening)..

[JPhillips]

It's a damned catastrophe that there isn't a charismatic No Brexit party leader that could emerge as the opposition to Brexit forces.

[JPhillips]

dola

And sources are saying the 21 who voted against the government will be kicked out of the Conservative party. Just the sort of genius thinking needed when the vote for a delay is coming and the government could perhaps still work out a favorable bill.

[SirFozzie]

Yup, this is the Night of the Long Knives for the Conservative party.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Possibly not.

Here's the thing, under the old system, the government can call for an election any time it liked (majority vote). It has a maximum term, but no minimum term.

Under the fixed term parliament act, it takes two thirds of the Parliament to agree to dissolve for an election before the term is up. All the opposition parties are saying "While we want an election, we're afraid you're going to deliberately screw things up (like, say moving the election date) to crash out deliberately on October 31st, so we're not going to agree to the election unless it's enshrined in law that you HAVE to ask for an extension"

Johnson does NOT want that (mostly because he wants to leave the EU come hell or highwater on October 31st, and tried pulling off a temporary shutdown to prevent just this from happening)..

Agreed, all of that is 100% accurate. The thing is labour have been calling for a GE for 2 years, and now they decide they don’t want it?

Get an amendment that the date can’t be changed, the vote would pass if Labour were serious about wanting a GE. Simple.

So you have to ask, why don’t they want a GE if it was enshrined in law that it must take place? The only answer can be that they in fact think they would lose, or, I guess, that being in power right now is a poisoned chalice

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Yeah, I don't know if this is that strange. Are people in the streets demanding that we overthrow Trump and ignore any of his decisions despite the fact that polls suggest he has around a 40% approval rating and he didn't win a majority of the popular vote? Seems like a pretty common underpinning of democracy, no?

I'm a billion percent against Brexit and the complete clusterfuck that it entails, and think that putting it to a simple majority vote was absolutely the stupidest and most cowardly decision a sitting government has ever made, but I can certainly respect the viewpoint that it was a democratic vote under the parameters that were set out at the time and it should be respected.

Actually people are in the street all the time demanding Trumps ouster. And since this was referendum falsely sold to the people, I would think they would laud their elected representatives to either fix it or block it from harming their nation. It sort of like "well, we know now this magic apple will put us in a coma, but since we already agreed to eat it..."

[SirFozzie]

Twitch

Fun stuff. (the UK Parliament on Twitch)

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Twitch

Fun stuff. (the UK Parliament on Twitch)

Wish you hadn't shared that. There goes my night.

[ISiddiqui]

Corbyn is now saying that Labour will back an election if the Brexit delay bill goes through and gets Royal Assent (I think that pushes Brexit back 3 months?)

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Corbyn is now saying that Labour will back an election if the Brexit delay bill goes through and gets Royal Assent (I think that pushes Brexit back 3 months?)

Theoretically it'd push it back to January 31st, yes, but I believe Boris could ask for the extension, then veto it. Which would then cause the delay to fail (no longer EU unanimous) and the Oct 31st date preserved.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

And no MIJB, Europeans putting pressure on the UK to avoid Brexit is not the way to keep them, and as pointed out most people seem to be against Brexit while also being in favor of going through with it.

The people in the UK are Europeans too, I think you meant the political EU. Even so, it's entirely the UK's decision to take this route. The UK has a lot more at stake and to lose than about 99% of the rest of the EU. The pressure is self proclaimed, Boris Johnson in particular, this is what he wanted. The rest of the EU is just tired of the flip-flopping, puzzled about why the UK is unable to make up their minds a about what they want.

I'm just pointing out that sometimes you have to man up, admit you made the wrong decision, bet in the wrong horse and take the losses before more severe damage is upon you. It wouldn't be the first or last time a government decides to take a different route than what the referendum resulted in. (We've been there, this loyal neighbour of the UK, we too voted against EU, but the government put the advice aside.)

Do I have a dog in this fight? I suppose I do. Practically, I live about 5 miles from the border with the UK. This area of the EU I live in actually does have something at stake: an old fashioned border will be a logistic nightmare here.

[JPhillips]

Has there ever been a worse start for a PM? Now his brother, an MP, has left the Conservative party. If Boris has a full turn he might take the UK all the way back to pre-Agincourt days.

[Butter]

Seriously, why can't they just treat the vote as "guidance" and back out of this? The majority seem to agree it's a bad idea at this point. Throw your British stiff upper lip out the window and call it a bad idea and move on.

[Kodos]

I'm sure as an American I am missing a ton of info, but it seems like a no-brainer to drop the whole Brexit thing.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Butter

Seriously, why can't they just treat the vote as "guidance" and back out of this? The majority seem to agree it's a bad idea at this point. Throw your British stiff upper lip out the window and call it a bad idea and move on.

Because a bunch of folks in the Conservative Party really want Brexit - including the current PM. An election may solve this.

[Butter]

Then why is Labour against calling an election?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Butter

Seriously, why can't they just treat the vote as "guidance" and back out of this? The majority seem to agree it's a bad idea at this point. Throw your British stiff upper lip out the window and call it a bad idea and move on.

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm sure as an American I am missing a ton of info, but it seems like a no-brainer to drop the whole Brexit thing.

To be fair, I do understand what many who are still pro Brexit are saying though I disagree. In theory, The UK voted to leave the EU. In theory,The government should leave the EU, deal with whatever is the results are, and if they feel they were better off before, put it to another vote.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Butter

Then why is Labour against calling an election?

Labour has said if they can get a Brexit delay (all the way to Royal Assent), then they are ok with an election.

I think there was some concern that a new election would basically occur with like days before the Brexit deadline.

Also, partially, they are afraid the Lib Dems are going to gain a shitload of seats (they are really the only full throated anti-Brexit party) and any new government will have to give a lot of concessions to them.

[JPhillips]

Corbyn is the one person hated more than BoJo, so an election may end up strengthening the Conservatives.

[ISiddiqui]

I think after the 5 week Parliament delay thing, there is no one more hated than BoJo... not even Corbyn.

But Jo Swinson as PM would be fun.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because a bunch of folks in the Conservative Party really want Brexit - including the current PM. An election may solve this.

An election is the only way to solve this now

[ISiddiqui]

Unless Boris somehow wins...