Pats steal a draft pick from Al Davis in his sleep

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

+1
I was going to edit out parts of this that I couldn't resoundingly support. Yet I kept finding stuff that matched my opinion.

I too was a fan, I was only a Raider fan. I started to back down with the Marcus Allen affair. I was completely lost by the time of the Tuck Ruling. I warmed when Gruden roamed the sidelines, and then rooted against the Raiders in their last SuperBowl appearance.

Al Davis must go. Since he can't realistically be fired, I've got to hope he dies. Is that wrong?

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

You could just hope that he gets declared mentally incompetent and has control of the team taken away from him. I think it is only a matter of time as he likely has some form of dementia, at least based on some of his football decisions.

I agree with this, and think it will happen in the next 3-5 years maximum.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Honestly Nite, your arguments keep getting worse and worse.

It makes me tink you have no knowledge of football or what it takes to build a winning football team.

I probably wouldn't go that far when talking about NiteMaestro's arguments, but there's one important point. NiteMaestro wants to give Al Davis a pass because of Al's history, yet he doesn't really seem to know Al's history. I think that makes it pretty hard to build a defense of Al.

NiteMaestro, what people here are trying to say is that Al Davis doesn't know what he's doing, and the recent results seem to suggest that also. The Raiders are the laughingstock of the AFC, and you could possibly say that they're the laughingstock of the NFL. At least people feel sorry for the Lions. I don't think anybody feels sorry for the Raiders. This is all pretty much because of Al Davis himself.

[Danny]

Oh and the one aspect I still respect from Al Davis is that he wants to win. Even now, with him being incompetent and quite possibly even senile, he still wants to win probably as much or more than any other owner.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Danny

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

+1

[Kodos]

When I saw this trade on NFL Network's little update bar, I was thinking that the NFL must have poor trading AI.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

people telling other people that they are or are not fans based on their own individual criteria of what defines a fan really pisses me the fuck off

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I probably wouldn't go that far when talking about NiteMaestro's arguments, but there's one important point. NiteMaestro wants to give Al Davis a pass because of Al's history, yet he doesn't really seem to know Al's history. I think that makes it pretty hard to build a defense of Al.

NiteMaestro, what people here are trying to say is that Al Davis doesn't know what he's doing, and the recent results seem to suggest that also. The Raiders are the laughingstock of the AFC, and you could possibly say that they're the laughingstock of the NFL. At least people feel sorry for the Lions. I don't think anybody feels sorry for the Raiders. This is all pretty much because of Al Davis himself.

As I said before, he has made mistakes, but when I look at this team on paper, when I look at the decisions he makes considering the time at which he made them...
It's impossible for someone to make 'that' many wrong decisions from insanity/senility. If he were crazy, there'd be at least some logic we could apply, some pattern to it that we could determine...
I don't see that.

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

There is no way a team with that powerful of a rushing game should not be contending for at LEAST a .500 record. Why? It has long been clear that the run game is imperative to a successful team, as even the Cardinals only made it through the playoffs because they found their run game at last. With the backfield group they have, and the talent elsewhere, they should be doing much better than this.
This isn't like the Lions, who were ran into the ground by clearly bad decisions and backwards structuring...

The fact that they aren't shows me that something outside of Al's control is getting in the way. (and I don't mean 'other teams', for all you smart-asses out there).

Hell, I'm even willing to say that Russell's just THAT bad. I'd believe it.
But I can't put it all on Al... At least not yet.

[jeff061]

people telling other people that they are or are not fans based on their own individual criteria of what defines a fan really pisses me the fuck off

Then you're not really a fan of being a fan.

[Jughead Spock]

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

A lot of things right... such as?

And you tend to make your own luck. A pattern of random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. is still enough to get most people fired.

[NiteMaestro]

Running back situation
Solid 'relatively' Oline
Nnamdi, risking a move from FS to CB is HUGE

just to name a few (at least that I can think of right now)

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

A lot of things right... such as?

And you tend to make your own luck. A pattern of random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. is still enough to get most people fired.

Well, for one, he bypassed Crabs the malcontent and took someone who will play this year

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Well, for one, he bypassed Crabs the malcontent and took someone who will play this year

... that he could have got 20 spots later. Just because the Crabtree situation isn't working out doesn't mean it wasn't a horrific pick.

[bhlloy]

DOLA - I should add in fairness that I don't hate the Seymour trade that much. Who knows what happens by 2011, and Seymour is still a very solid player. It's a young Raiders team, they could be half decent next season.

[Jughead Spock]

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too?


And yes, I admire Al for going out and getting more running backs when he was already stocked there. Obviously having four 1000-yard type backs does wonders for the record.

To be fair, I do think they'd be better off with a better QB, and can't really fault him for taking Russell. Hopefully he can pull his head out, but not holding my breath. Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.

[Jughead Spock]

dola - yeah, I don't find this deal all that atrocious - IF they can get him signed and on the field. They desperately need some run-stopping help.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.

I would, considering he was cut a couple of days ago.



But seriously, was Tommy Kelly a waste of money? I never get to see Raiders games out here, it seemed like a lot of money for a guy without much track record.

[larrymcg421]

Thread title fail. As if Al Davis needs to be asleep to have draft picks stolen from him.

[Jughead Spock]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I would, considering he was cut a couple of days ago.



But seriously, was Tommy Kelly a waste of money? I never get to see Raiders games out here, it seemed like a lot of money for a guy without much track record.

Oh wow. Hadn't been into the football news the last few days. Good luck, Jamarcus, all on you now. Until they bring Jeff George out of retirement. Still has a hell of an arm, Al.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

This isn't like the Lions, who were ran into the ground by clearly bad decisions and backwards structuring..

so the Raiders have made good decisions?

keep digging that hole

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Danny

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I sincerely think that Davis is doing alot of things right, but random coincidences/unfortunate events/etc. bite him in the ass.

If you make that many mistakes in a row, perhaps football is not for you

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

As I said before, he has made mistakes, but when I look at this team on paper, when I look at the decisions he makes considering the time at which he made them...
It's impossible for someone to make 'that' many wrong decisions from insanity/senility. If he were crazy, there'd be at least some logic we could apply, some pattern to it that we could determine...

See I dont think insanity/senility means what you seem to think it means.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

eh. that's your definition of what it means to be a fan...but who's to say that your definition is the only valid one?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

eh. that's your definition of what it means to be a fan...but who's to say that your definition is the only valid one?

I never definitively said what it is to be a fan.

I just said that I'm a loyal moron. I don't just get frustrated and quit on my team. If that was true in real life, I'd be divorced.

[molson]

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.

Their "Super Bowl window" has been 9 years and counting, and with the foresight they use I don't see why it can't be extended another 5-6 years. Keeping Seymour wouldn't have helped too much this upcoming season (he would be our 3rd best DL after Wilfork and Warren, and the backups are quite talented) and he was not going to be resigned for next year, so this trade is a slight loss for 2009, a wash in 2010, and a big gain from 2011-2015 or so.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by molson

Not psyched about this trade as a pats fan - sure it's a "steal" in a technical sense, but who cares about 2011 - the pats super bowl window is NOW.

And they can still win one without him now, even if they are worse off this year. Thats the balancing act.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too?

Matt Millen made several great picks (Mike Williams, Charles Rodgers, and the rest of the draft picks from 2002 to 2006), but it was just bad luck that bit him in the ass.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Danny

You were never really a fan then. I may not like what Davis has been doing with the team, but they are still my team. Doesn't stop me from having other teams I like and will root for as long as doesn't effect the Raiders though.

No.

Really I was a Raider fan. My Only team. I nearly came to blows with someone who told me this once before. It was sort of a wake up call to let me know that if this discussion brought me to the edge of decking someone, that I I'd probably had a bit too much to drink that night.

To be fair, it wasn't his declaration that I "wasn't a really a Raider fan" that set me off. I was able to blow that off completely. It was when he defended Davis' handling of the Marcus Allen affair. More specifically, when he declared that Allen was the one at fault, and a "traitor".

I haven't turned my back on the Raiders. I've turned my back on Al Davis.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

... that he could have got 20 spots later. Just because the Crabtree situation isn't working out doesn't mean it wasn't a horrific pick.

Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

[Galaxy]

I've heard that Richard hasn't reported to the Raiders yet. Is this true?

[JediKooter]

This just makes me laugh. You can almost hear the sucking sound in Oakland as that franchise gets closer and closer to a singularity. A true black hole indeed...

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I've heard that Richard hasn't reported to the Raiders yet. Is this true?

I've wondered what his reaction is to the trade. I can't imagine he's happy going from Super Bowl contender to Al Davis' Vanity Fair.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

It was the opinion of A LOT of NFL people. It's why it makes the pick that more head shaking. It's not like he was widely deemed to be picked within even 5 picks later, so it's "kind of odd, but it's Al."

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

dola - yeah, I don't find this deal all that atrocious - IF they can get him signed and on the field. They desperately need some run-stopping help.

Agreed.
This should work nicely for them.

Originally Posted by Lathum

so the Raiders have made good decisions?

keep digging that hole

Good? Maybe not.
Wise? Only time will tell.
Educated? Yes

In this sport, all we have to go on is speculation and some knowledge. Not all of Al's decisions were good, and only history will decide how wise they were. But they were definitely educated.

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I agree.

I mean, I'm a fucking life-long Lions fan, yet I have stuck with them through thin an thin. Sure, I get unbelievably mad and frustrated, but I couldn't root for anyone else. No chance.

I guess I'm kind of pathetic in that way. I pay $250 or so every year just so I can watch them. Last year they didn't win 1 game (obviously), yet I watched every minute of every game. My wife thinks I'm crazy, and I guess I agree.

LOL, you are a bit crazy... but remember, the word 'fan' came from the term 'fanatic' (at least if I remember correctly).

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Their "Super Bowl window" has been 9 years and counting, and with the foresight they use I don't see why it can't be extended another 5-6 years. Keeping Seymour wouldn't have helped too much this upcoming season (he would be our 3rd best DL after Wilfork and Warren, and the backups are quite talented) and he was not going to be resigned for next year, so this trade is a slight loss for 2009, a wash in 2010, and a big gain from 2011-2015 or so.

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
http://www.google.com/books?id=n15Qd...age&q=&f=false

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

Thats your opinion where he might have gone. I personally dont think he would have lasted that long. Who knows, it might end up being a terrific, not horrific pick. Only time will tell....

Agreed.
Remember, Al is a guy who doesn't care what pick he has. If a guy he likes is still there. He's taking him. He's not one to risk trading down and losing him.

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

No.

Really I was a Raider fan. My Only team. I nearly came to blows with someone who told me this once before. It was sort of a wake up call to let me know that if this discussion brought me to the edge of decking someone, that I I'd probably had a bit too much to drink that night.

To be fair, it wasn't his declaration that I "wasn't a really a Raider fan" that set me off. I was able to blow that off completely. It was when he defended Davis' handling of the Marcus Allen affair. More specifically, when he declared that Allen was the one at fault, and a "traitor".

I haven't turned my back on the Raiders. I've turned my back on Al Davis.

Hm... While I don't necessarily agree, I understand, and respect that.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Were you guys big Matt Millen (as GM/president) fans too?


And yes, I admire Al for going out and getting more running backs when he was already stocked there. Obviously having four 1000-yard type backs does wonders for the record.

To be fair, I do think they'd be better off with a better QB, and can't really fault him for taking Russell. Hopefully he can pull his head out, but not holding my breath. Wouldn't be surprised to see Garcia pull out another few wins.

Originally Posted by fantom1979

Matt Millen made several great picks (Mike Williams, Charles Rodgers, and the rest of the draft picks from 2002 to 2006), but it was just bad luck that bit him in the ass.

If you're just messing with me, then 'ha ha'...
If not...
Let's compare, shall we?
Let's also remember Millen had no management experience prior to this too...
But I digress. Millen 02-06
To Davis 02-06

[first, I want to establish that for me, there is a difference between a bust and a disappointment a bust does not produce, and doesn't stay in the league long (past his first contract). A disappointment still produces, generally at starting level, but is not the player he was 'supposed' to be. I.E. Vick is not a bust. He produced. Now if people thought he'd be a Manning kind of QB, then he'd be a disappointment. But not a bust. Make sense?)

First round pick(s)
2002... Severe disappointment. Almost bust, but was 'relatively' productive. Many believe it was due to lack of mobility behind a porous O-Line.
2003... Bust. Many already warned about his work ethic and maturity. Giving him money didn't help. Started bright, and injuries aren't predictable, but how you respond and recover to them are...
2004... Roy Williams... Ok. Well done. But no QB really, so. meh... Could be worse though, so I give 'em credit.
2004... Kevin Jones... Another solid pick. Injury prone, which is unfortunate/unforeseen, so I'll say this year they did alright.
2005... Bust... Mike Williams... Makes no sense. You already have 2 1st round receivers... Why? After he sat an entire year too (and had a lackluster combine to boot...)
2006... Ernie Sims... Finally. A wise pick. We'll see how he pans out, but he'll be a solid starter for some time IMO.

So of six picks, 2 busts, one severe disappointment, and a 'bad luck' case with Jones's injury. .125+0+1+.25+0+.5
1.875/6 we could say? 31%(ish)

Later picks? No one I've heard much about from my memory...
I'll assume mediocre at best.


Al Davis...
2002... Harris and Buchanon... Not bad, but still not 'pleased'
2003... Asomugha = Jackpot, especially considering he was moved from Safety to Corner. A VERY risky move. Brayton = Disappointment. Did okay to start, but instead of getting better, got kinda worse... Still plays though. Add in Fargas later on... Pretty good overall IMO.
2004... Galley = Disappointment. Busted as a Tackle, but looks better at Guard, so still serviceable... Besides that, he was seen as a great prospect by practically EVERYONE at the time.
2005... Washington = Not bad. Didn't fit though, so Disappointment. Add in Morrison though as a later gem, and Carr from free agency... Eh. Mediocre.
2006... Huff = Solid choice, and traded for picks/players? Can't complain.

So Raiders had... .5+.5+1+.25+.25+.25+.25+.25+.25+.5 (.5 = 'okay', .25 = disappointment or later pick bloom)
4/10? 40%
Not to mention, no real 'busts' either.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Books

Bledsoe != Brady.

Watching Bledsoe in 98, 99, and 00 was not easy to do. He was a low completion percentage, interception throwing deep ball passer. The opposite of Brady, and by extension the opposite of how Belichick wants his QBs to operate. Just because they play the same position doesn't mean you can switch the names around and say its the same thing. I really mean little offense by this, but have to ask based on your posting history in this thread: do you watch much football?

[Subby]

NOT JUST CEREBRAL BUT VERY CEREBRAL

[jeff061]

With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...

lol.

Not exactly.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Bledsoe != Brady.

Watching Bledsoe in 98, 99, and 00 was not easy to do. He was a low completion percentage, interception throwing deep ball passer. The opposite of Brady, and by extension the opposite of how Belichick wants his QBs to operate. Just because they play the same position doesn't mean you can switch the names around and say its the same thing. I really mean little offense by this, but have to ask based on your posting history in this thread: do you watch much football?

I was saying that simply based on what I read.
The attitudes that Belichick is taking/leaning towards now makes me wonder if it's similar to the one that the previous guys did in New England (in the locker room at least.)
That was all.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

What attitudes are you referring to?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Iunno...
With Brady/Cassel, there was a situation awfully similar to Bledsoe/Brady... Belichik didn't pull the trigger this time, and one has to wonder if he's making a mistake...
Why?
Well, reading this made me think twice...
The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Books

How much you want to wager on Brady vs. Cassell over the next 5 years, in terms of wins, passing yards, td's, games started, whatever. Let me know. I mean, Tom Brady isn't in danger of losing his job to Tyler Thigpen.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

Good? Maybe not.
Wise? Only time will tell.
Educated? Yes

In this sport, all we have to go on is speculation and some knowledge. Not all of Al's decisions were good, and only history will decide how wise they were. But they were definitely educated.

.

This has to be a joke account.

How can you say time will tell?

I think time has already told us Al has lost it.

And how can you say educated picks? If by educated you mean who has the fastest 40 time or the strongest arm then ok, I see your point. I mean, why should decision making, fitness, are ability to learn the playbook matter, just chuck it up and let that speedy receiver who can't catch the ball run under it.

[Lathum]

Nite, how many wins do you think the Raiders get this year?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

If you're just messing with me, then 'ha ha'...
If not...
Let's compare, shall we?
Let's also remember Millen had no management experience prior to this too...
But I digress. Millen 02-06
To Davis 02-06

[first, I want to establish that for me, there is a difference between a bust and a disappointment a bust does not produce, and doesn't stay in the league long (past his first contract). A disappointment still produces, generally at starting level, but is not the player he was 'supposed' to be. I.E. Vick is not a bust. He produced. Now if people thought he'd be a Manning kind of QB, then he'd be a disappointment. But not a bust. Make sense?)

First round pick(s)
2002... Severe disappointment. Almost bust, but was 'relatively' productive. Many believe it was due to lack of mobility behind a porous O-Line.
2003... Bust. Many already warned about his work ethic and maturity. Giving him money didn't help. Started bright, and injuries aren't predictable, but how you respond and recover to them are...
2004... Roy Williams... Ok. Well done. But no QB really, so. meh... Could be worse though, so I give 'em credit.
2004... Kevin Jones... Another solid pick. Injury prone, which is unfortunate/unforeseen, so I'll say this year they did alright.
2005... Bust... Mike Williams... Makes no sense. You already have 2 1st round receivers... Why? After he sat an entire year too (and had a lackluster combine to boot...)
2006... Ernie Sims... Finally. A wise pick. We'll see how he pans out, but he'll be a solid starter for some time IMO.

So of six picks, 2 busts, one severe disappointment, and a 'bad luck' case with Jones's injury. .125+0+1+.25+0+.5
1.875/6 we could say? 31%(ish)

Later picks? No one I've heard much about from my memory...
I'll assume mediocre at best.

I'm having a hard time following all of this and I have no idea what 31%(ish) means. Does that mean Millen hit on 31% of his first round picks? Uh...

Maybe he got "unlucky" with Kevin Jones' injury problems. And, sure, Roy Williams is a pretty servicable WR. But, remember, there is only ONE player from the 2002 - 2006 drafts still left on the team (Ernie Sims). ONE. There are calculations conceivable that can make Millen's performane as a GM anything but a complete and utter failure.

Even if Roy Williams is a good player, the fact that he is a first round pick that is no longer on the Lions means that he really wasn't a good pick for the Lions (the specific team that drafted him). The draft is about finding good players and building a team with them. Millen may have gotten lucky a few teams in the former (a very few times based on the number of players he drafted that are even still playing in the NFL), but completely failed at the latter.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This has to be a joke account.

How can you say time will tell?

I think time has already told us Al has lost it.

And how can you say educated picks? If by educated you mean who has the fastest 40 time or the strongest arm then ok, I see your point. I mean, why should decision making, fitness, are ability to learn the playbook matter, just chuck it up and let that speedy receiver who can't catch the ball run under it.

You forget, these/we are kids!
The body does not fully develop until 23(ish)
and the brain does not fully develop until 25-27...
So they don't have worth ethic. Is that because of school? Their family influence? Their real personality?

Even when you 'know' something, it's still a gamble. So yes. These are all just educated guesses. Some moreso than others.

[Autumn]

This thread is turning classic. Who knew Al had such love out there.

[NiteMaestro]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I'm having a hard time following all of this and I have no idea what 31%(ish) means. Does that mean Millen hit on 31% of his first round picks? Uh...

Maybe he got "unlucky" with Kevin Jones' injury problems. And, sure, Roy Williams is a pretty servicable WR. But, remember, there is only ONE player from the 2002 - 2006 drafts still left on the team (Ernie Sims). ONE. There are calculations conceivable that can make Millen's performane as a GM anything but a complete and utter failure.

Even if Roy Williams is a good player, the fact that he is a first round pick that is no longer on the Lions means that he really wasn't a good pick for the Lions (the specific team that drafted him). The draft is about finding good players and building a team with them. Millen may have gotten lucky a few teams in the former (a very few times based on the number of players he drafted that are even still playing in the NFL), but completely failed at the latter.

31% according to the scale I used. Which is rather lax.
I didn't want to bash Millen too bad, but wanted to make a point that while Millen was completely and totally inept, Davis has had successes and faliures in the draft, but many more of the former than Millen.

[Atocep]

I just want to be able to say I posted in a thread where someone defended Al Davis.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by NiteMaestro

I didn't want to bash Millen too bad, but wanted to make a point that while Millen was completely and totally inept, Davis has had successes and faliures in the draft, but many more of the former than Millen.

Well, that bar is pretty low. Saying, "he's a better GM than Mat Millen", is sort of like saying "well, he's not as evil as Hitler!"

It's a pretty meaningless statement.