Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[JediKooter]

I do have to say, after seeing Bill Clinton after his diet change, I was shocked. I'm not trying to be mean, but, he looks sickly and weak as if he just got out of a POW camp. I haven't seen what he looks like recently, so, maybe his appearance has changed since.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Thanks...Ive read through some sites there and have some homework for the week.

I really want this to be true....Heart Disease is a big issue for my family. I just haven't seen anything that I couldnt point out other significant factors that werent standardized for.

Thanks for taking it seriously, and I hope you find what you're looking for.

I know personally I find it tough to handle the separation between the "serious science" (which is often too thick or complex for me to really digest or approach), and the "dumbed down version" where I feel I have to take someone's word for it. I think it's a common dilemma with complex topics.

And - I'd be remiss if I didn't offer one more thought here. Try it. Do one of these 21-day or 28-day challenges, and see if you have results. It's fairly common, especially for people with problem cholesterol, to see a really marked improvement in just that much time. I know it's a weird thing to contemplate... but if you're uncertain whether it would be effective for you, one way to find out is to see what happens.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If you're trying to do oatmeal, I can't recommend this stuff highly enough:

McCANN'S Steel Cut Irish Oatmeal, 28-Ounce Tins (Pack of 4): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

And for crying out loud... ir you're going to make an effort, make an effort. get rid of the 13-unpronouncable-ingredient packets, man up, and boil some fucking water. Even buying the dirt cheap rolled oats from the shelf is much cheaper than instant packets, far better for you, and at worst it takes 5 minutes to make. Seriously.

We tend to make a batch by tossing it into the slow cooker at night, and it's great for the morning. Works well for grits, too, if that's your thing.

If you want to get serious with your oatmeal, some crushed nuts and/or things like flaxseed can make it even more of an energy boost for the morning. Bob's Red Mill makes a pretty good multi-grain hot cereal as well, if you're looking for variety.

Done - and there is no comparison. Steel cut is sooooo much better than instant. And REALLY filling.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Thanks for taking it seriously, and I hope you find what you're looking for.

I know personally I find it tough to handle the separation between the "serious science" (which is often too thick or complex for me to really digest or approach), and the "dumbed down version" where I feel I have to take someone's word for it. I think it's a common dilemma with complex topics.

And - I'd be remiss if I didn't offer one more thought here. Try it. Do one of these 21-day or 28-day challenges, and see if you have results. It's fairly common, especially for people with problem cholesterol, to see a really marked improvement in just that much time. I know it's a weird thing to contemplate... but if you're uncertain whether it would be effective for you, one way to find out is to see what happens.

Things is rght now I am on the pure other end of the spectrum...a paleo/keto diet. I question the link between dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol. ANd from a pure evolutionary stand point, it is undeiable that we as homo sapiens killed, fished and ate meat long before we ever grew crops or processed grains.

Just seems to me, that if similar arguments were presnted about say an FOF gameplan people would nash teeth about the multitude of variables that are not accounted for. In this argument people who are otherwise intelligent seem to be making leaps of logic that border on cult hood to me.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

ANd from a pure evolutionary stand point, it is undeiable that we as homo sapiens killed, fished and ate meat long before we ever grew crops or processed grains.

Aren't you making your own leap here, to assume that humans had to grow crops before they could eat grasses, seeds, fruit or veggies? I'd imagine that gathering came before hunting, since most hunting and fishing requires a tool and fire, to get it anywhere near its modern state...and also the lack of terrifying, carnivorous apes/monkeys.

[Kodos]

In general, people are pretty resistant to new information, especially if it involves stopping doing something they like. Look at smokers, for instance. From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty compelling in support of a plant-based diet. In my case, in just 4 weeks, I've lost over 10 pounds merely by switching to mostly fruits and vegetables from what was previously a meat-filled diet. I haven't been sitting around hungry. I haven't been counting calories. I've just been eating fruits, vegetables, and nuts when I'm hungry. I also dropped soda, which I'm sure gets credit for some of the weight loss.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Things is rght now I am on the pure other end of the spectrum...a paleo/keto diet. I question the link between dietary cholesterol and blood cholesterol. ANd from a pure evolutionary stand point, it is undeiable that we as homo sapiens killed, fished and ate meat long before we ever grew crops or processed grains.

My personal guess (and I am far from expert, but many share this view) is that the reduction in totally empty foods that one gets with a paleo/keto style diet makes it effective as a weight loss tool. I made the same switch myself, moving essentially from low-carb to plant-based in my own pursuits. I have lost more weight with the plant based, but I honestly would attribute that to my ability to stay more disciplined with this than I had been in the later phases of carb avoidance.

Where the paleo/keto approach has its potential failings appears to be with other health elements, more than weight loss. A low carb diet filled with animal fat and protein but relatively low sugar-spiking ingredients probably helps us cut total calories and/or bad blood sugar effects, but it's harder to assess the effects on cardio and arterial health, cancer, and other diseases that appear to be linked to animal proteins.

The evolutionary argument is superficially appealing, but what is it really telling us? Back when our species or its ancestor had no ability to eat our modern complicated, processed, and dreadful diet, they settled for hunting flesh and gathering plants. Okay, got it. Modern ailments were not part of their worlds, it seems. Okay, I'm with you. They all died at age 35, though... so the afflictions of the longer-lived modern population simply were not a major factor from any perspective -- from practical to evolutionary. If you're a caveman and your expected lifespan is 30-40 years, the advantages of a more cardio-friendly diet that might stave off that heart attack at age 50 is a lot more remote a consideration than it is for, say, me.


As for your comment about the uncritical eye, I am personally really making an effort to take these comments to heart. I am an analytical and skeptical person by nature, and I am aware that I may be losing my edge on these matters after becoming essentially convinced that it's right for me and my family. Recently, I have spent some time reading through some criticisms of the China Study, and while it's technically a little thick, I'm doing my best to follow it with an open mind.

I'm not absolutely sure what my diet is going to look like in a year or ten, and I'm trying not to claim that I know I have found the one true path here. However, along the way so far I am very comforted to have virtually no doubt that what I am doing is far, far more healthy and sensible for me than the way I have eaten in my earlier life. So, even if this isn't a magic bullet, and it's *only* a major step in the right direction, I'm still finding the inconveniences and sacrifices to be well worth it, so far -- and I hope I can stick with it, for my own sake and that of my family.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, even if this isn't a magic bullet, and it's *only* a major step in the right direction, I'm still finding the inconveniences and sacrifices to be well worth it, so far -- and I hope I can stick with it, for my own sake and that of my family.

And I wish you nothing but successs and hope it works out for you. I may even give it a run myself. For now, on the paleo/keto route I am down 32lbs since Nov. 1. Likewise I eat whenever I want unti I am not hungry and enjoy the food I eat. When I get to a target weight m I may very well try out a vegie style just to see hw my body reacts.

[Matthean]

Ordered the Fork Over Knives book and the Firehouse 2 cookbook for ideas. One thing that got me thinking is I can go through two gallons of milk without looking at the expiration dates. I went and got some oatmeal and started to have that for breakfast instead of cereal. It's only been two days, but I can feel the difference. I can't sub out milk for eggs because then I just make omelets, and I can't make them without cheese.

My goal right now is to only buy one gallon of milk until all of my cereal is gone and then get as much as I need, which should be hardly any. My overall goal isn't to be a vegetarian/vegan. It's to simply get more vegetables and fruits into my diet. The one video talking about how 50% of our fruit and vegetable intake comes from french fries rang a little too true. The sad part is, the other 50% isn't that great either. I figure just switching to oatmeal and trying to get one other meal to be plant based and I'll still be sane while vastly healthier.

[Kodos]

That's how I'm approaching it. Eat a ton more fruits and vegetables, cut way back on meat and dairy. Meat is an occasional treat, and I try to use minimal yogurt in my daily fruit smoothie breakfast.

[QuikSand]

My family went to see Rip Esselstyn last night, he's doing a tour at Whole Foods Markets around the country, and does a 40-minute version of his overall pitch followed by a screening of Forks Over Knives. It's basically an expanded version of the TEDTalk posted earlier in this thread, but it was pretty interesting to see such a wide range of people there (including local firefighters).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

My family went to see Rip Esselstyn last night, he's doing a tour at Whole Foods Markets around the country, and does a 40-minute version of his overall pitch followed by a screening of Forks Over Knives. It's basically an expanded version of the TEDTalk posted earlier in this thread, but it was pretty interesting to see such a wide range of people there (including local firefighters).

Is there a link on the Whole Foods website of upcoming talks by him? Would be cool.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Ordered the Fork Over Knives book and the Firehouse 2 cookbook for ideas. One thing that got me thinking is I can go through two gallons of milk without looking at the expiration dates. I went and got some oatmeal and started to have that for breakfast instead of cereal. It's only been two days, but I can feel the difference. I can't sub out milk for eggs because then I just make omelets, and I can't make them without cheese.

My goal right now is to only buy one gallon of milk until all of my cereal is gone and then get as much as I need, which should be hardly any. My overall goal isn't to be a vegetarian/vegan. It's to simply get more vegetables and fruits into my diet. The one video talking about how 50% of our fruit and vegetable intake comes from french fries rang a little too true. The sad part is, the other 50% isn't that great either. I figure just switching to oatmeal and trying to get one other meal to be plant based and I'll still be sane while vastly healthier.

I have a ton more energy since cutting out dairy. Just a thought, since one of the breakfasts I have from the cookbook is 'Rip's Big Bowl' is to give vanilla flavored Almond Milk a try. I make a bowl that includes Kashi Go Lean Crunch, Uncle Sam's Cereal, raw old fashioned oats, then an array of fruits, usually Blueberries, Strawberries and a Banana. I put just enough Almond Milk on it to get everything wet. Very tasty.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Is there a link on the Whole Foods website of upcoming talks by him? Would be cool.

Engine 2

My opinion -- the guy could be a real star if he just had about one more click of charisma. He's a handsome guy with a good story, and he's a decent public speaker, but if he were just a little bit better on stage/camera he could be a great candidate to be *the* lead figure in the broader movement, rather than just one more guy saying most of the same things.

New candidate for standard-bearer may turn out to be Lance Armstrong. He and Rip have been working together on diet and training, it appears, and Lance has been "virtually all plant strong" for about two months now, as he preps for the Ironman.

[BishopMVP]

(Using this as a jump-off point.)

Originally Posted by Kodos

In general, people are pretty resistant to new information, especially if it involves stopping doing something they like. Look at smokers, for instance. From what I've seen, the evidence is pretty compelling in support of a plant-based diet. In my case, in just 4 weeks, I've lost over 10 pounds merely by switching to mostly fruits and vegetables from what was previously a meat-filled diet. I haven't been sitting around hungry. I haven't been counting calories. I've just been eating fruits, vegetables, and nuts when I'm hungry. I also dropped soda, which I'm sure gets credit for some of the weight loss.

I think I agree with most of the facts behind this trend. I'm not going to set an unreasonable goal for myself by going fully onboard, but I'm willing to accept that eating meat and dairy is kind of like drinking alcohol - in that I know it's not good for me, but when I do it occasionally it's because I enjoy it and I should treat it as a treat. That being said, I'm a somewhat poor, irresponsible, time-pressed mid-20's person who can't make it to Whole Foods and prepare a 30-minute meal every day. So along the lines of QS's suggestion of buying the 5 gallon drums of oatmeal to replace eating (almost certainly sugar-filled) cereal with milk, what are the ways I can ease into this lifestyle?

- Is there a certain place to buy nuts cheaply in bulk I don't know about?
- Are there particular fruits I should be going after (I've tended toward bananas, clementines and apples for convenience/familiarity.)
- Are there any vegetables that taste good, or certain combinations I should try? (I realize how ridiculous a statement that is for a man my age, but for various reasons I never ate many growing up.)

[QuikSand]

It might serve this thread well to post a few food ideas anyway, I will toss out a couple that I strongly endorse:

Dr. McDougall's Right Foods Vegetable Soup, 18.0-Ounce Boxes (Pack of 6): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

Eden Organic Black Beans, No Salt Added, 15-Ounce Cans (Pack of 12): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

Erewhon Rice Twice Whole Grain Cereal, Gluten Free, 10-Ounce Boxes (Pack of 4): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

Steamed Brown Rice Bowl, Organic, Microwaveable, 7.4-Ounce Bowls (Pack of 12): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

* - If you're unfamiliar, use the Subscribe-and-Save option through Amazon, you save 15% (and get free shipping) by agreeing to buy again after a fixed time period, but can cancel it literally two minutes later and keep the savings.

Amazon.com: Bob's Red Mill Mighty Tasty Gluten Free Hot Cereal -- 24 oz: Grocery & Gourmet Food

If you're hurting for time, or not sure what to do at the grocery store (and no, you don't have to go to a foo-foo special store), here's a good shopping list to work with, IMO:

whole wheat pasta
low fat spaghetti sauce
frozen peas
sliced olives
(put those together, less pasta more veggies, for a good and easy dinner)

darker greens for salads - skip the iceberg, but romaine is good, spinach even better, and stuff like kale and collard greens are off the charts healthy

citrus fruits are all great with their ratios of fiber and vitamins per calorie

apples and pears are sugary but very high in fiber and filling

among vegetables, pick stuff that's easy to prep in the microwave -- broccoli is amazingly good for you (microwave a cup of rinsed fresh broccoli in a covered bowl for about 90 seconds, let it stand in its steam
for another few minutes, and it's ready to go -- honestly, no butter or cheez needed)... similar for asparagus (cook a little less, and prefer the smaller stems)

for snacking around the house, most grocery stores will sell pre-sliced carrots and celery (or prep your own, it's not big deal to do) but that's a great item to have around... get some fairly low fat hummus as a dip to replace the dairy stuff and it's suddenly a protein rich and more substantive dish... sliced peppers and raw snap peas are also great, though a bit more labor/dollar intensive

grab a few sweet potatoes, rinse them off, poke them with a fork in a couple of places, and bake them for about an hour at 450 degrees... they come out of the oven with the inside about the consistency of mashed potatoes, sprinkle on cinnamon (I just use combined seasonings like pumpkin pie spice, or chinese five spice) for a fantastic side dish that's a ton better for you than white potatoes

fresh green beans are really easy to make into a delicious dish if you can spend a few minutes -- sautee some shallots/onion and garlic in vegetable broth (or oil if you must) and sizzle the beans on high heat with some soy sauce for about 5 minutes until they brown up... it's fantastic dish, sodium is the only drawback (green beans also microwave pretty much like broccoli above)

sauerkraut isn't popular with that many people, but if you like contrasting textures in your food and don't mind its taste (I took to it late in life but now love it myself) it's a great addition to many dishes -- I add it around beans, potatoes, and all sorts of things

beans in a can tend to be salty and loaded with BPA (Amazon link above is to a brand that is BPA free and organic, for well under $2 a can), but rinse them off and the convenience is hard to beat... stay away from baked beans that are loaded with sugary syrupy sauce, and go with canned black beans, chick peas, black eyes peas, or whatever you like. mix in some salsa, taco seasoning, frozen corn, water chestnuts, okra, whatever you like to come up with an easy dish that holds its own against high-fat, high-animal options. mix around with whole wheat or corn tortillas, brown rice, quinoa, etc. if you like "rich" foods, guacamole is animal-free in almost all cases - it's high in fat, but it's a tremendous complement to stuff tending in the mexican direction

among packaged foods, give a look at Indian stuff - TastyBite is getting onto shelves fairly often (and is available on Amazon too) and they have some very good options - my favorite is Bombay Potatoes

Not everything is easy to do, but there are a ton of options in any grocery store that are very healthy, often cheaper than prepared foods, and relatively easy to pull together.

[Matthean]

I think meatless chili would be an easy and good option for winter as well. I have a Taco Soup recipe that is virtually a chili, and I could easily see it going meatless. It makes a ton, so I could freeze the rest.

[QuikSand]

Chili, absolutely. For me, it's a fairly labor intensive thing, as I tend to use 15 ingredients or so and cook it overnight, but a simple bean-based chili can be whipped together fairly easily too, I'm sure.

[CU Tiger]

To show that I am not totally opposed I'll share two low carb and meat free options I enjoy regularly

I like to take fresh asparagus, sea salt, black and a touch of red pepper, sprinkle on some Mrs. Dash or Old Bay seasoning salts then cook in a deep frying pan with water instead of oil (though I also occaisonally use EVOO or Butter which would be no gos for this purpose) and bring it to a slow rolling boil for a few minutes. It comes out more floppy than crisp...hich is good for me as I just cant handle crisp snapping greens as far as texture.

Another one I love is faux-tatos. Boil up some cauliflower (trust me I hate this stuff any other way) Then mash it all up and prepare like any mashed potato recipe. (Again for me I like twice baked style with bacon and cheese, but you can also use garlic and chives etc.)..it realy is tasty and healthy. I dd a touch of frank's red hot to give it a little kick.

BTW broc. works as well as asparagus on the first one.

[PilotMan]

If anyone is using the frozen tofu meat substitute in your chili or sloppy joes or hamburger helper or tacos, it can easily be made with a little bit of prep ahead of time and it can save you a ton of money.

Freeze the tofu in its package, then thaw it out.
Squeeze out as much water as you can.
Crumble it on a cookie sheet, sprinkle it with soy sauce and garlic. You will need to use more than you think to get a strong enough flavor.
Put it in a low temp oven until it's dry.

It can then be used in the fridge or frozen.

One $1.25 package of tofu should be able to last 2 or 3 meals worth. You can experiment with spices and marinades. We have used it in meatloaf, meatball subs and a bunch more. Season it the way you would regular meat, but much, much stronger. The tofu doesn't absorb the flavor as well as meat does.

You can also use tofu as a cheese substitute in lasagne or other dishes, but you need to marinate the tofu in chunks overnight to absorb the flavor.

[QuikSand]

Well, moving into more complicated recipes...

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - FOFC Recipe Box

[cuervo72]

Nice list above, Quik. I'm certainly on board with black beans, garbanzos, black-eyed peas. I tend to rinse all of these as a matter of course. I've been hitting the "soul food" section of our Bloom for these and things like okra, collards, hoppin' john, cabbage, etc. Most of the seasoned options are probably a little too salty though. I never get iceberg from the salad bar I hit for lunch. Yuck.

Made this the other day, loved it:

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/spinach...recipeID=22271

I added some half-and-half to make it creamier, which I know is a no-no if you're being strict. It would still be pretty good without it though (or with something soy). The creamed corn could easily go for regular corn or tomatoes. I didn't have curry paste, so I used a couple Tbsp of tomato sauce and 2 Tbsp curry powder. I assume there are substitutes for the oil too (I used olive).

[digamma]

Not wholly forks over knives, but we had a complete farm to table meal tonight with everything but the salt and pepper picked at our neighborhood farmer's market this morning.

Protein was a whole grass raised chicken from a local (well, Santa Barbara) rancher. We patted it down with fresh herbs (a buck a bag at the market) and cooked it on our Big Green Egg.

Sides were a baked sweet potato prepared as Quik suggested above and a kale salad with a lemon dressing (some olive oil, so also not plant based compliant).

Overall, though, a pretty delicious meal. Felt good to know exactly where everything came from.

[PilotMan]

I had a physical this morning and my blood pressure was down to 115/72. Possibly the lowest that it has been in 20 years. Up until the middle of last year my standard BP was in the 135/65 range. It's amazing that a dietary change of cutting out most meats and dairy could have that much of an impact.

[Kodos]

My wife unearthed this article which gives counter points to many of the points in Forks Over Knives. I haven't finished it (or even come close to finishing it), but from what I've read so far, replacing your old meat intake with fish is a good idea. And also replacing breads with rice/potatoes is good. Sounds like the movie overgeneralized all animal proteins promoting disease, whereas fish actually helps prevent a lot of disease.

“Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique) « Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Kodos

My wife unearthed this article which gives counter points to many of the points in Forks Over Knives. I haven't finished it (or even come close to finishing it), but from what I've read so far, replacing your old meat intake with fish is a good idea. And also replacing breads with rice.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/for...que/#more-1487

Ahem.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

Say hi to your wife for me.

[Kodos]

Heh. Great minds work alike I guess. My wife suggests you buy some Gas-Ex.

[johnnyshaka]

With all the fruits and vegetables I've been eating lately "hot air" has been flowing freely and furiously!

[Matthean]

I got my FOK and E2 books. I skimmed through them but haven't made anything. I think after doing a week of cutting down on dairy I figured out I could easily go through three gallons of milk before they expired. One week in and I'm down about three pounds.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Ahem.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

Say hi to your wife for me.

I should have read that the first time around. Awesome critique.

[QuikSand]

I agree its a very insightful critique, one I have read before and has caused me to follow up on sources in both the crit itself and in the China Study in particular. Basically, this is the most organized argument that has me making a pretty wide range of caveats in things I have written or have had quoted here in this thread.

For me, rather than focusing on the deep science, I'm trying to look at my own experience. On the question of whether the dietary changes I have made are a "magic bullet" or merely "just a ton healthier than before," I look at them piece by piece:

-Replace white and processed grains and sugars with whole/natural varieties

Inconvenience is moderate, especially when eating out, but it's really hard to argue that this change wouldn't be a good one for anyone, on any diet, trying to deal with any combination of weight loss, blood sugar issues, or related disease.

-Reduce oil as much as possible, reducing saturated fat especially

I'm not personally sold that this is a powerful element in the overall plan, but it is undeniably true that oil -- even "good" oils like olive oil -- adds absolutely nothing of nutritive value, and is extremely high in calories. If you can live with the substitutes (to varying degrees, I have found this either completely painless up to moderately so) then again, it's not tough to argue that lower oil is probably better for just about anyone.

-Eat more healthy green vegetables, nutrient-dense plants, fiber rich fruit and legumes

There's really not a lot of controversy here, I think the only approach that really shuns this at all is the ketosis-based carb-avoidance, which most people advocate for weight loss rather than true overall health. I don't think there is any dietician or nutritionist who would say that eating more spinach, romaine, celery, beans, citrus, and so forth is anything but great for you, especially when you contemplate the other less healthy options that these foods inevitably replace.

-Eat less, or no, animal products and eschew animal protein from the diet

Controversy here, and many see this as a massive sacrifice, I understand. I expected it to be when I made the decision to try it. I haven't found it to be all that hard, though my combination of motivation and family commitment may give me a big advantage here.

In any event, there's relatively little doubt that replacing most of the animal products in your diet with other things is probably better. Whether you get most or all of that benefit from switching within the animal range to supposedly healthier options is unclear to me (as I have said before) but I have basically concluded that I can do this myself, and I'm convinced that it's manageable, even if it might be something more than absolutely necessary to get the health benefits I'm looking for.


That's where I land. I actually enjoy reading about these topics for fairly obvious reasons... and this thread has given me a chance to do more thinking, as well as writing. Hope this talk keeps going.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

-Eat more healthy green vegetables, nutrient-dense plants, fiber rich fruit and legumes

There's really not a lot of controversy here, I think the only approach that really shuns this at all is the ketosis-based carb-avoidance, which most people advocate for weight loss rather than true overall health. I don't think there is any dietician or nutritionist who would say that eating more spinach, romaine, celery, beans, citrus, and so forth is anything but great for you, especially when you contemplate the other less healthy options that these foods inevitably replace.

I'm not sure they shun it, but not all of them emphasize it. Adkins certainly doesn't seem to. When I started with Medifast though, their setup was basically something like five of their mini-meals -- shakes, puddings, oatmeal-like substance, etc. -- and one "green and lean" larger meal (salad and chicken breast). Veggies like spinach, salad, asparagus, broccoli, green beans, cabbage, and others were fine. Corn, carrots, peas, beets and other "starchy" veggies were to be avoided, at least in the early stages (I tended to avoid beans as well until I was in more of a maintenance phase). I ate considerably more veggies going low-carb than I ever had with a "normal" diet. Basically, instead of a main dish with a side of veggies, side of starch and maybe also bread, I had a main dish with double the veggies.


edit: Fruit was out though. Too much natural sugar.

[albionmoonlight]

FWIW, Kimchi is a great diet food. It is a bit of an acquired taste. But it is SO flavorful. It can enhance any Asian dish without adding to it much calorie wise.

What I find interesting about eating better as a "typical American" is that it isn't that hard considering that we are starting from such a bad place.

There are sacrifices that are hard to make in life. There's no shortcut to exercise that I have found. If you really want to aggressively save for retirement, etc., there is no substitute for substantial decreases in your consumption and/or getting a second job. These are good things to do (save money and exercise), but they are not easy.

Eating better? Easy. Replace the Wonder Bread with whole grain bread. Replace the white rice with brown rice. Replace the white pasta with whole wheat pasta.

Make sure to eat a fruit or veggie with every meal. Even if it is just some carrot sticks or an apple.

Replace a couple of meat intensive meals with some beans. Canned beans are fast and easy. Dried beans that have been cooking all day are super flavorful (if done right), if a bit more work.

Keep nuts on your desk to snack on instead of M&Ms.

Cut out the sugared soda. Start drinking your fruit juice mixed with water to cut down on sugar intake.

Take your milk consumption down from full to 2% to 1% to skim. Stop when the milk starts to taste gross (we stopped at 1%).

Make fast food an occasional thing. Not a "I'm late, let me run through the drive though" thing.

When you sautee, use as little oil as possible. When you cook down meat for a stew, drain as much of the fat as possible before you add the other ingredients.

Focus on dishes like lemon-pepper chicken where the flavor comes from citrus and not fat.

Eggs and Chicken are great sources of protein that can hold your up and are much better than, say, fatty sausage or bacon.

I, of course, know that people would say that a healthy diet requires more than the above steps. I don't totally disagree. And I also note that some of the steps outlined above would not be "easy" for some people. I don't disagree.

But, really, we've instituted most of those to some degree or another. And it has felt almost costless. Indeed, some of them have been beneficial even beyond health. Processed white bread tastes gross to me now (unless it is with BBQ, in which case it is required). I like apples and carrots and grapes and spinach--even as I had gotten out of the habit of eating them.

Again, I am not saying that these are all you need to do. It is just so rare that you can get anything approaching "something for nothing" these days, that I found it amazing that you can undisputedly improve your diet almost without feeling it.

[BYU 14]

We have replaced oil completely and "sautee" in vegetable broth now, which adds nicely to the flavor of mushrooms, onions, etc.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

If anyone is using the frozen tofu meat substitute in your chili or sloppy joes or hamburger helper or tacos, it can easily be made with a little bit of prep ahead of time and it can save you a ton of money.

I made my chili recipe this weekend (it's more or less a Cincy plus peppers and beans) and substituted tofu for beef. Nothing fancy, just four 14oz blocks of soft tofu rather than 4-5 lbs of beef. The softer worked nicely, as I don't really directly fry or brown my meat so I didn't need it to crumble. I mash it(with a potato masher) in with the sauteed onions and peppers, which cooks it a little less directly and allows it to get a finer consistency. I did the same with the tofu.

It looks a little odd at first - almost like a colorless peppers and eggs - but after simmering for a while (mine was on for at least six hours), the tofu soaks up plenty of color from the tomatoes and spices. With the finished product I could hardly tell the difference.

[QuikSand]

fun propagandist bullshit

Billboards Slather On The Guilt With Anti-Cheese Campaign : The Salt : NPR

[DanGarion]

Just food for thought, there are many studies the past number of years that stress the use of oils (fats) for optimum mineral and vitamin absorption into the blood stream...

A lot of good stuff in here nonetheless.

[QuikSand]

I have invested a pretty hefty amount of time into the question of oils, and am still pretty perplexed. What is generally tough is that most research, understandably, is done with a population that is "normal" in most regards, save for the things being tested. So, when you want to know whether olive oil is beneficial, you study it across a wide swath of people, habits, and diets. It's fairly well documented that for ordinary people with ordinary diets, switching to olive oil and from something even worse (deeply saturated oils, trans-fattty stuff) seemingly makes them better off for having done so, in a number of ways.

What's tougher is whether someone who has made a big dietary shift --away from animal proteins and fats and toward plants and whole foods -- is better off including oil for similar purposes. Issues of absorption and digestion take on a really different shape with a diet that is overloaded with fiber, greens, and legumes.

Right now, I'm personally avoiding oil in most places where it's fairly easy to -- but mainly because it's just so calorie dense without adding anything essential. I'm not really convinced that doing so is an essential part of "eating for health" in an overall way (though some persuasively argue so). But I have gotten pretty easily adjusted to much less oil/fat in my diet, and since I don't really miss it that much, I don't see any need to move it back in and add the 200-300 empty calories a day that I probably would add by doing so.

[QuikSand]

As an aside - my biggest struggle lately has been dropping sodium. And reducing oils is a culprit, which kinda sucks. The best substitutes I have found for most things I would use oil for have been tamari/shoyu and vegetable broth, and both are loaded with Na.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

As an aside - my biggest struggle lately has been dropping sodium. And reducing oils is a culprit, which kinda sucks. The best substitutes I have found for most things I would use oil for have been tamari/shoyu and vegetable broth, and both are loaded with Na.

You can always make your own veggie broth, that way you control the sodium content. All the ugly parts of the veggies that you don't eat can be saved up in the freezer and then used to make it.

[BYU 14]

OK, I am totally baffled. I have been following a good amount of this diet from the FOK book, adding some soy meat replacements for protein and taking a protein powder supplement since January 1st.

Since the beginning of the year I have had chicken twice, fish once and a steak once for my birthday.

I asked my doctor to order a lipid profile because I was curious about the effects and at my last physical (August) my triglycerides were on the high end of normal. I do cardio 4-5 times a week, strength training 3-4 times and Jiu Jitsu twice, so I am pretty active for a 49 yr old.

So I get a message that all my blood work was good, except my LDL which was elevated. i have never had high LDL or total cholesterol and now that I am eating healthier than ever I have high LDL, WTF? Of course they didn't leave the number on the message so I have to call monday to make an appointment, which leads me to believe it is more than just borderline.

Kind of curious what the hell happened here.

[Matthean]

I switched from iceberg lettuce to Spinach in part because lettuce simply doesn't hold up in my rather cold refrigerator. I took the recommendation of cinnamon on sweet potatoes to help with not eating as much white potatoes. I haven't bought milk since I posted about it. I'm down around 12 pounds with plenty room for improvement in terms of eating habits. It will still take me about a year to get close to where I want to be, but so far the dietary changes have been painfully easy. My birthday is April 4th so I'm targeting the next changes to add in, but I haven't decided on what. I have gone pop free for a month and it was easy to do, but I'm not sure if I want to go pop free for good just yet.

[Kodos]

I've converted to baby spinach for my salads too. It just tastes better than romaine lettuce.

I am under 200 pounds for the first time in around a decade. 198.2 this morning! I got stuck in the doldrums for around a month at 201, but now I've rededicated myself to reaching 170 or so.

Watched Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead last night. Was a good motivator to keep up with a high fruit, high veggie, low meat, low processed foods diet. One guy in the movie lost over 200 pounds drinking homemade veggie/fruit juice. I'm doing a similar thing in the mornings with fruit smoothies for breakfast. I started at 215.6 right around Thanksgiving. At this point, I am down 17.4 pounds. 28 or so more to get to my initial goal. I plan to see where I'm at when I'm 170.

[albionmoonlight]

This might be the thread for this.

I make a pretty good KimChee fried rice. We decided, however, to switch to tofu as the main protein in it. So I bought some firm tofu and plan to cook it tonight.

I've never cooked tofu, however. Should I bake it first to cook it before throwing it in the fried rice? (The dish does not actually spend that much time in the skillet because all of the ingredients are already cooked when they go in). Should I marinade it? Should I just throw it in "raw?"

I know nothing about tofu, so any and all advice is very much appreciated.

[Autumn]

The way you'll usually get it in a restaurant is fried in some oil. You certainly could put it in raw, but I would only do that if you're going to crumble it up and just sort of mix it in. Normally I would fry it on all sides so it's a bit crispy on the inside. You can marinate it first - tofu will soak up a lot of anything, and so it's great to marinate, in whatever sort of flavorings will go well with your fried rice. If you want to avoid the oil you could bake it, or simply sear it in the pan before mixing it in. But you definitely want to prep it before you throw it in the rice, like you would meat.

It also can depend on the type of tofu. Is it flavored? Is it firm or soft?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

OK, I am totally baffled. I have been following a good amount of this diet from the FOK book, adding some soy meat replacements for protein and taking a protein powder supplement since January 1st.

Since the beginning of the year I have had chicken twice, fish once and a steak once for my birthday.

I asked my doctor to order a lipid profile because I was curious about the effects and at my last physical (August) my triglycerides were on the high end of normal. I do cardio 4-5 times a week, strength training 3-4 times and Jiu Jitsu twice, so I am pretty active for a 49 yr old.

So I get a message that all my blood work was good, except my LDL which was elevated. i have never had high LDL or total cholesterol and now that I am eating healthier than ever I have high LDL, WTF? Of course they didn't leave the number on the message so I have to call monday to make an appointment, which leads me to believe it is more than just borderline.

Kind of curious what the hell happened here.

FOK is based on pseudo-science.

If you're looking to lower your LDL, try eating salmon twice a week (or buy some fish oil capsules), oatmeal for breakfast a couple times a week, and snack on walnuts/almonds/peanuts. And if you haven't already done so, make sure your grains are always whole grain and you cook with olive oil. These are actual things that have been scientifically proven to work and will work. My Dad saw his drop from moderately high risk to just under the mark where they put you on drugs for it.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

FOK is based on pseudo-science.

If you're looking to lower your LDL, try eating salmon twice a week (or buy some fish oil capsules), oatmeal for breakfast a couple times a week, and snack on walnuts/almonds/peanuts. And if you haven't already done so, make sure your grains are always whole grain and you cook with olive oil. These are actual things that have been scientifically proven to work and will work. My Dad saw his drop from moderately high risk to just under the mark where they put you on drugs for it.

I was actually going to update this....The message they left was misleading. Since being on this diet (most of the time) my total Cholesterol dropped from 182 to 148, my triglycerides from almost 150 (Which was borderline high) to 88 and my LDL from 104 to 92. All of which are optimal numbers.

The issue was my HDL which went from 46 to 38, which caused my LDL particles, a new component of lipid profiles, to be borderline. Reasoning for this is there is not enough HDL to clean the particles out. So even though my LDL cound is solid, the particles that carry it are a bit high.

My doctor wants me to start Crestor to boost the HDL, which I am not going to do until I get a second opinion since the other numbers are so good. I already get plenty of exercise, so I have reintroduced Salmon, Halibut and Tuna to my diet and went from 1 Omega 3 pill a day to 3 (which is the recommended dosage)

Am also going to try a Niacin supplement and try to get the HDL up that way before I take Crestor as I don't want to start a daily pill that can jack others things up in terms of side effects if I can help it.

Weight is down 17 pounds to 207 since January 1st, which is only a couple pounds higher than it was when I blew my Achilles out last March, so that part is good again. I want to get between 195-200 which is right for my frame, so I am close there.

[QuikSand]

Good for you guys with the weight loss and good measurables. I have had a very stressful last few weeks and have lost some ground with weight (I am a nervous eater) but am seeking to get back to it after my schedule slows down soon.

As far as tofu, likely too late to help for tonight, but it tends to pick up flavors around it -- a quick healthy sizzle in with your rice and it ought to be fine, just like cubed chicken or other veggies. No need to do much advance prep, really.

[RainMaker]

That's good BYU. Losing weight will always help with that stuff. My issue with FOK is the "meat is bad" mantra. Sure some meat with a lot of saturated fat isn't good for you (from a calorie and health standpoint), but people giving up chicken and other lean meats make no sense. It's perfectly healthy, provides vital nutrients, low calorie, and a complete protein.

[CU Tiger]

Well since I was such a contesting I wanted to weigh in as well.

Following a largely Paleo (read meat based and meat as the primary element) diet since 2nd week of November I have lost 52 lbs, from 299 to 247 this morning.
Have a physical coming up this week and getting some blood work done so that will be interesting as well.


BYU there is actually a fair amount of debate in the medical community regarding the validity of the lipid profile at all as an indicator of, well anything. But good luck.