Game of Thrones on HBO

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yes, but it means it'll be quite different. Margarey controlling Tommen with sex as opposed to bringing him kittens.

Fine by me. More Natalie Dormer hotness is always welcome.

[stevew]

Still waiting for the first drop of hotness.

[BishopMVP]

Btw, I have a friend's wedding coming up in June... should I pay the band to play Rains of Castamere during the reception?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Btw, I have a friend's wedding coming up in June... should I pay the band to play Rains of Castamere during the reception?

That would be fantastic, let us know how it turns out!

[sabotai]

GRRM talked about the scene on his blog (in one of the comments sections)

Not A Blog - Author, Author!

Re: Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau's author program.

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

[ISiddiqui]

Butterfly effect is a good way to put it, IMO.

[Bonegavel]

G.R.R.R.R.R.R.Martin is worried about disturbing people?

[DaddyTorgo]

The teeth-gnashing over this is annoying me. All the book readers being know-it-all's and acting holier-than-thou.

Just sit back and enjoy the show for what it is and the fact that we somehow managed to get years and years of HBO committing to put the book series on TV alright?

Instead we get bitching about how: "this action totally destroys the redemptive arc of Jamie's character" and shit.

NEWSFLASH: HE'S STILL THE KINGSLAYER. HE BROKE HIS OATH. HE'S STILL AN INCESTUOUS HOLIER-THAN-THOUGH HYPOCRITIE. HE CRIPPLED BRAN.

But then again - even in the books I don't buy into the whole "redemption of Jaime" bit. That's fine if people do - part of the beauty of it is that so many characters are shades-of-grey, but let's not go pretending that a couple good deeds make up for all the shit he's done, alright?

[ISiddiqui]

Considering that for a lot of book readers Jaime turns into one of the favorite characters, I think it is proper to bitch about it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Considering that for a lot of book readers Jaime turns into one of the favorite characters, I think it is proper to bitch about it.

I don't get those people TBH.

But then again I'm not big on forgiveness I suppose.

[Logan]

Isn't the majority of the "teeth-gnashing" over it coming across much more as rape on the show vs the books?

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, which tends to stop Jaime's redemption in its tracks (at least on the show). I still love him in the books!

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

NEWSFLASH: HE'S STILL THE KINGSLAYER. HE BROKE HIS OATH. HE'S STILL AN INCESTUOUS HOLIER-THAN-THOUGH HYPOCRITIE. HE CRIPPLED BRAN.

But then again - even in the books I don't buy into the whole "redemption of Jaime" bit. That's fine if people do - part of the beauty of it is that so many characters are shades-of-grey, but let's not go pretending that a couple good deeds make up for all the shit he's done, alright?

Yeah, its what I love about the characters of the series. I didn't read the books but I see Jaime as I might see a lot of assholes I've encountered/known in my lifetime(to a different degree of course)...they aren't always & forever assholes but in one (or more) situation(s) they were by my definition, an asshole at some point. Hell, there are quite possibly people out there who's recollection of me could in fact be, "that asshole". I like to think not but its possible.

Even Ned Stark is cutting some boy's head off in the very first episode of S1. That wasn't "right" from our perspective, but Ned doesn't have our perspective and the boy seemed to be making an imaginative excuse for abandoning his group and Ned needed to teach his sons how to handle such traitors/cowards/lunatics.

I think the only non-redeeming (in some way) characters that I've seen so far are Joffrey & Visceris (perhaps the Mountain but we've seen little of him). Otherwise, everybody is partially likeable & partially unlikable depending on your perspective & character viewpoint. Its rather awesome.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I still love him in the books!

Asking, honestly curious, don't feel the need to answer now if you want to write a treatise on it, but why? What about his actions later "redeems" what he did earlier?

Make the case for him, if you will.

(and others feel free to chime in with your thoughts also). Not trying to start an argument, just that I'm honestly not a very forgiving person so I guess I don't see it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Yeah, its what I love about the characters of the series. I didn't read the books but I see Jaime as I might see a lot of assholes I've encountered/known in my lifetime(to a different degree of course)...they aren't always & forever assholes but in one (or more) situation(s) they were by my definition, an asshole at some point. Hell, there are quite possibly people out there who's recollection of me could in fact be, "that asshole". I like to think not but its possible.

Even Ned Stark is cutting some boy's head off in the very first episode of S1. That wasn't "right" from our perspective, but Ned doesn't have our perspective and the boy seemed to be making an imaginative excuse for abandoning his group and Ned needed to teach his sons how to handle such traitors/cowards/lunatics.

I think the only non-redeeming (in some way) characters that I've seen so far are Joffrey & Visceris (perhaps the Mountain but we've seen little of him). Otherwise, everybody is partially likeable & partially unlikable depending on your perspective & character viewpoint. Its rather awesome.

Joffrey - yup
Viserys - yup. Pretty much a nutter genetically though.
Mountain - yup

[cschex]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Asking, honestly curious, don't feel the need to answer now if you want to write a treatise on it, but why? What about his actions later "redeems" what he did earlier?

Make the case for him, if you will.

(and others feel free to chime in with your thoughts also). Not trying to start an argument, just that I'm honestly not a very forgiving person so I guess I don't see it.

I think the argument hinges on how you see the Kingslaying. Jamie undoubtedly saved the live of innumerable KL residents by killing Aerys and Rossart (the pyromancer Hand). Then he becomes a guy who has made a very bad relationship choice and has been making decisions to cover that since. His one unforgivable act is throwing Bran out of the tower, so that becomes the crux as to whether you feel like his later acts with Brienne, Tyrion and the Riverlands redeem that or not.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Asking, honestly curious, don't feel the need to answer now if you want to write a treatise on it, but why? What about his actions later "redeems" what he did earlier?

Make the case for him, if you will.

(and others feel free to chime in with your thoughts also). Not trying to start an argument, just that I'm honestly not a very forgiving person so I guess I don't see it.

I think that his actions with Brienne show him on a path to redemption. He loses a lot of the arrogance and jerkishness when captures with her (of course its the first time we get his POV). We realize that he was actually HONORABLE by slaying King Aerys II - he saved the entire city from the genocidal lunacies of the Mad King. He starts to really care for Brienne (in a platonic way) and sacrifices his own body to save her. He saves Brienne from getting killed by Loras on the way to Kings Landing as well (not sure if that's in the show).

and then,

Spoiler

Gives the Valyrian blade to Brienne in order to find and keep Sansa safe from Cersei. Then he arranges for Tyrion to escape from prison and confesses what he did with Tyrion's wife - something I'm positive he never would have done before.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cschex

His one unforgivable act is throwing Bran out of the tower, so that becomes the crux as to whether you feel like his later acts with Brienne, Tyrion and the Riverlands redeem that or not.

And on a certain level, the evil of throwing Bran out the window is more about Jaime's cavalier way of doing so. When Bran finds Jaime and Cersei having sex, it becomes almost an either or - if Bran tells anyone, Jaime and Cersei are executed within the week for treason. Not that it excuses attempted murder, but it makes it slightly more understandable.

Of course looking at later POVs, Jaime's cavalier attitude almost seems like a mask hiding some deep insecurities.

[NobodyHere]

Given some of Bran's later chapters, it's a shame Jaime didn't actually kill him.

[stevew]

I wish Bran on the show was dead.

[panerd]

So I take it this is no longer the spoiler free show only thread? I thought that was the purpose of the Fire and Ice thread? Anyways I have already had 2-3 plotlines ruined by reading this one so I guess it's best just to avoid it. Though I don't understand what's so hard about not ruining the show for people who haven't read the books. I love the Wire and know what happens in every season but see no reason to go into that thread and ruin it for people who are enjoying the show and posting there.

[jeff061]

I keep saying that. People ruining the show keep making lame excuses. I gave up trying to talk sense.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

So I take it this is no longer the spoiler free show only thread? I thought that was the purpose of the Fire and Ice thread? Anyways I have already had 2-3 plotlines ruined by reading this one so I guess it's best just to avoid it. Though I don't understand what's so hard about not ruining the show for people who haven't read the books. I love the Wire and know what happens in every season but see no reason to go into that thread and ruin it for people who are enjoying the show and posting there.

Who spoiled anything? ISidiqqui put his thoughts in spoiler tags. Although I suppose you're right - that's probably a better conversation to have in that thread - but it just arose here.

Are you up to date on the show? What plotlines have you had ruined?

[Logan]

Yeah I didn't want to be the one to post it, cause I can usually just glance at things and know they are going in a direction I don't want to see. And generally I find it easier to just come in here within 24 hours of a show airing. But seeing things like "Bran's storyline will always suck" is a pretty big bummer.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Who spoiled anything? ISidiqqui put his thoughts in spoiler tags. Although I suppose you're right - that's probably a better conversation to have in that thread - but it just arose here.

Are you up to date on the show? What plotlines have you had ruined?

Won't get into it in case others are in the same situation as me but let's just say that a spoiler tag in the middle of a major character's accomplishments isn't much of a spoiler tag. And there have been quite a few "just wait until this happens". Like I said I just won't read the thread. I like the show a lot but don't need to discuss it on FOFC. (Much like Walking Dead though that thread is better about not talking about the source material) It is bad though if you haven't read the books and isn't worth half reading a post and realizing that you read something that hasn't happened yet.

And you are not the person who posts the spoilerish stuff DT but the responses to you are definitely spoilers.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Yeah I avoided this thread until I read all the books but my concerns were dismissed IIRC.

The issue isn't plotlines ruined per se. It is shit like "Jamie is going to get awesome!" "Can't wait until this particular episode!!!"

Really should be a show-watcher thread and a book-reader thread (which there are, but oh well).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Yeah I didn't want to be the one to post it, cause I can usually just glance at things and know they are going in a direction I don't want to see. And generally I find it easier to just come in here within 24 hours of a show airing. But seeing things like "Bran's storyline will always suck" is a pretty big bummer.

Oh c'mon. That's an opinion not a fact. Some people find his storyline interesting. Some people don't. Some people think Jaime later gets redeemed by some actions, other people don't.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Yeah I avoided this thread until I read all the books but my concerns were dismissed IIRC.

The issue isn't plotlines ruined per se. It is shit like "Jamie is going to get awesome!" "Can't wait until this particular episode!!!"

Really should be a show-watcher thread and a book-reader thread (which there are, but oh well).

I don't think Jaime ever gets awesome.

I see your point though. Unfortunately some stuff gets cross-posted or discussions started in the wrong thread.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Oh c'mon. That's an opinion not a fact. Some people find his storyline interesting. Some people don't. Some people think Jaime later gets redeemed by some actions, other people don't.

So you don't see how that would be a problem for non book readers on a show where even the main characters die at any moment that we now know Jamie isn't dying any time soon? Like a tense swordfight or something?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Oh c'mon. That's an opinion not a fact. Some people find his storyline interesting. Some people don't. Some people think Jaime later gets redeemed by some actions, other people don't.

Like I said, "it's a bummer". I don't know what the hell is going to happen to him but just reading people's reactions to it makes me at least think that his visions and his quest into the North and this group he's running with isn't going to have some great pay off, at least any time soon. I'd prefer not to know any of that and I think the intention at the onset was to keep this thread about the show. What gets talked about a good amount here is the books and not the show. You can't really dispute that.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

So you don't see how that would be a problem for non book readers on a show where even the main characters die at any moment that we now know Jamie isn't dying any time soon? Like a tense swordfight or something?

I do get your larger point - and note I said I agree that there's been some posts in here that probably belong in the other thread.

OTOH, you should consider that maybe people just aren't mentioning his comeuppance.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Logan

Like I said, "it's a bummer". I don't know what the hell is going to happen to him but just reading people's reactions to it makes me at least think that his visions and his quest into the North and this group he's running with isn't going to have some great pay off, at least any time soon. I'd prefer not to know any of that and I think the intention at the onset was to keep this thread about the show. What gets talked about a good amount here is the books and not the show. You can't really dispute that.

I do dispute that. I think what gets talked about a good amount in this thread is the show, and in particular the show's depiction of things versus the books. The pure book discussion stays in the book thread. Unfortunately though there is some bleed-over.

[jeff061]

Lame excuses, right on cue.

[ISiddiqui]

And responses like that are what lead to book readers saying fuck the spoiler police. So... congrats?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Lame excuses, right on cue.

Where? I conceded that panerd is right and some stuff bleeds-over or gets discussed in the wrong thread due to where the thought is brought up.

Nobody in here spoiled the weddings or Sean Bean, did they? (honest question I don't recall). So let's keep things in perspective.

Would be nice if it was perfectly 100% spoiler-free yes, but we're all just humans right?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And responses like that are what lead to book readers saying fuck the spoiler police. So... congrats?

Way to take it up a notch.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm fine with doing so. The spoiler police have gotten out of hand so much its unreal. Where posting under the SPOILER TAG gets you in trouble.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Yes, yes, this is exactly what happened the last time I brought this up. "STOP TRYING TO SEGREGATE US I WANT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE MY CONVERSATION IN MULTIPLE PLACES, AND FUCK EVERYONE ELSE"

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, I'm fine with owning that and fuck the spoiler police who want to go all St. Louis Cardinals on the thread and have us post "the right way".

[jeff061]

To be clear. I've read the books. Just a lot of selfish asshole moves in this thread.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Logan

Way to take it up a notch.

No shit. I'll just avoid the thread but I don't understand why it makes someone feel so superior just because they read the source material. Sorry but listing a major character's accomplishments when one spoiler tag in the middle is hardly spoiler free.

It's like George HW. Bush

Congressman
Head of the CIA
Vice President
SPOILER
Ex-President

[Kodos]

It does seem reasonable to hope that this thread would remain pretty spoiler free.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Nobody in here spoiled the weddings or Sean Bean, did they? (honest question I don't recall). So let's keep things in perspective.

Neither the Red Wedding or the Purple Wedding was spoiled (you can see that in the results), but yet discussing a character and then putting some stuff in the spoiler tag (with complete assumption on what you are putting in the spoiler tag) is as if you told everyone that Robb was going to die back in the middle of Season 1.

Fuck that shit.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

No shit. I'll just avoid the thread but I don't understand why it makes someone feel so superior just because they read the source material. Sorry but listing a major character's accomplishments when one spoiler tag in the middle is hardly a spoiler.

It's like George HW. Bush

Congressman
Head of the CIA
Vice President
SPOILER
Ex-President

You realize that spoiler is basically on the order of saying Robb is going to be Warden of the North after Ned gets arrested and thrown into the dungeon in King's Landing (ie, a minor spoiler that is fairly obvious).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

No shit. I'll just avoid the thread but I don't understand why it makes someone feel so superior just because they read the source material. Sorry but listing a major character's accomplishments when one spoiler tag in the middle is hardly spoiler free.

It's like George HW. Bush

Congressman
Head of the CIA
Vice President
SPOILER
Ex-President

Hey - I side with you on the general point, but I do believe it's on you if you can't resist from clicking the spoiler tag in a thread where you don't want to be spoiled. I know in other threads sometimes I've resisted and sometimes I've been weak and haven't. But I haven't gotten pissed because someone posted something in spoiler tags that I was too weak-willed to avoid clicking on.

[panerd]

So a group of guys has been waiting for years to Martin's books to get the recognition they thought it deserves. Finally HBO makes a series and a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon and enjoy the show a lot and so instead of being happy that the show/book is now trendy and popular they get pissed off that the "bandwagon" doesn't want the show spoilered.

Stephen King's Dark Tower is supposed to be on HBO in the future. I loved the books but see no reason to go into the Dark Tower:HBO thread and get all pissed off when people who haven't read the books don't want me talking about the Song of Susannah during season 1.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Hey - I side with you on the general point, but I do believe it's on you if you can't resist from clicking the spoiler tag in a thread where you don't want to be spoiled.

I didn't click on it.

[ISiddiqui]

So you assumed what it said?

Btw your comparison is woefully inadequate. As Princess of Dragonstone isn't a final title, it's actually one of her first ones.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

So a group of guys has been waiting for years to Martin's books to get the recognition they thought it deserves. Finally HBO makes a series and a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon and enjoy the show a lot and so instead of being happy that the show/book is now trendy and popular they get pissed off that the "bandwagon" doesn't want the show spoilered.

Or rather its that the book readers are happy and excited its on HBO and want to discuss the show and bend over backwards to put any speculation in spoiler tags (which is the reason they exist in the first place), but still get reamed out because non-book readers have assumed what's in the spoiler tags and the existence of them in the first place is treated as a spoiler. There is no acknowledgement of how meticulous book readers are of keeping unspoiled things unspoiled.