2012 NFL Offseason thread

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Heard one "insider" claim that the Saints were offering Manning/Brady money, and that the two sides were still "far apart" That would indicate Brees was looking for significantly more than an inflation increase over that.

Then he's dreaming.

[Ksyrup]

Drop Brees, sign Manning, win a SB with home team, he can retire.

[Swaggs]

Pretty bummed to see Hines Ward go and I'm not sure that I understand it unless he has unrealistic salary demands (and reports had been that he was willing to come way down). He is certainly to the player that he once was the Steelers actually have a need for a 4/5-type of receiver (with Wallace, Brown, and Sanders all with 3 or fewer years of experience) and they have historically carried 1-2 veteran guys at the position.

Maybe they are planning to resign Cotchery, but it seems like he would be more expensive and they are close to the cap already.

[JPhillips]

About time Ward got blindsided.

[Scoobz0202]

My buddy just texted me saying Peyton Hillis is thinking about retiring and joining the CIA?? Is my buddy high or is this something seriously being discussed?

[Logan]

Maybe he meant Tiger Woods and joining the Navy SEALs.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

My buddy just texted me saying Peyton Hillis is thinking about retiring and joining the CIA?? Is my buddy high or is this something seriously being discussed?

profootballtalk.com says he thought about it last season. I don't think it is anything current.

[cartman]

The Eagles franchise DeSean Jackson.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by cartman

The Eagles franchise DeSean Jackson.

In other words the Eagles are going to underachieve again next year and basically ignore the real problem the team has. They had a chance to make a statement to the rest of the team that their attitudes need to change instead talent wins out. I think Deshaun would have been addition by subtraction personally.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In other words the Eagles are going to underachieve again next year and basically ignore the real problem the team has. They had a chance to make a statement to the rest of the team that their attitudes need to change instead talent wins out. I think Deshaun would have been addition by subtraction personally.

I agree with this, plus is he really worth the average of the top 5 guys? IMO they should have let him walk.

[stevew]

Adam Schefter reporting that up to 25 guys will be franchised this year, which is 11 more than the previous record.

Brent Grimes was the first player in Falcons franchise history to be tagged.

Just off the top of my head, these moves(among many others) are expected-
*Desean Jackson-Eagles
*Grimes-Falcons
Anthony Spencer-Cowboys
Hicks/Brees-Saints
Forte-Bears
Rice-Ravens
Lynch-Seahawks
Goldson-Niners
*Tyvon Branch-Raiders

[miked]

I hear Bowe will be franchised by KC too.

[albionmoonlight]

Saints defense being investigated by NFL for putting bounties out on players from other teams.

Considering how hard the defense sucked last year, that's pretty surprising news. How about before you start paying bounties, you make sure you have the whole "keep the other team from scoring" thing down?

[Logan]

According to Schefter, it goes back to 2010 "targeting QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner".

"NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program. Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline. NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches. Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices." (pieced together tweets)

Really, you documented this thing?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Logan

According to Schefter, it goes back to 2010 "targeting QBs such as Brett Favre and Kurt Warner".

"NFL security determined between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as at least one asst. coach, maintained a bounty program. Investigation reviewed 18.000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages. Commissioner Goodell will determine the discipline. NFL determined that former Saints DC Gregg Williams administered the program with knowledge of other defensive coaches. Discipline for the Saints could include fines, suspensions and forfeiture of draft choices." (pieced together tweets)

Really, you documented this thing?

They did appear to be taking some shots on Favre in the championship game that many considered dirty. Also, Adrian Peterson has called them out more than once for being a dirty team and he seldom says anything negative about another team.

But yeah, documenting that is pure stupid. Now I only wonder if any of the bonuses handed out messed with their cap standing.

[albionmoonlight]

Re documentation: What's that Simpsons line where Jimbo says something like "Videotaping our crime spree is the best idea we've ever had!"

Anyway, I'm a huge Saints fan, but if this really happened, the team needs to be punished. "No bounties on players" is one of those bright-line rules. If you are stupid enough to do it, you deserve the punishment you get.

St. Louis has got to be wondering if hiring Gregg Williams was such a smart move.

[DeToxRox]

The Saints' 2010-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000" for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.

The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents. New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March.

[DeToxRox]

Dola

Now in New Orleans defense, they did spend the entire 2011 season not targeting the QB at all so maybe that self imposed penalty will suffice.

[Rizon]

New Orleans Raiders?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Logan

Really, you documented this thing?

As someone who has spent quite a bit of time reviewing documents to see if people say stupid things, you would be surprised at how often people document really dumb things. Most of the really bad stuff tends to be emails, since people don't always thinking before writing them and they tend to stick around for a long, long time.

[Shkspr]

50K pages of documents? That's about fifty pages of paperwork per Saints player per week dedicated just to bounties.

More like the New Orleans Readers, not Raiders.

[DeToxRox]

Schefter tweet: A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

About time Ward got blindsided.

He wasn't. He knew this was coming.

Still, it's been a bit of a sad week in Steelerland with Ward, Farrior and Smith cut (along with Kemo and Battle). None of the cuts are difference-makers on the field - only Farrior was a part time starter - but 3 of those guys epitomized the blue collar ethic that helped the Steelers win two Super Bowls. They're all considered Pro's Pros - character guys with great work ethics, who played at a very high level (all 3 were All Pros) who left it all on the field. As such, it's sad to see three of those kind of guys go in the same off-season.

[JPhillips]

There are also problems with the CBA and salary cap if they're giving out money.

[Grover]

Mike Nugent franchised. Whoo!

[DeToxRox]

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the NFL has determined that MLB Jonathan Vilma was one of the primary culprits in the Saints' "pay for performance" bounty program that will result in NFL discipline.

"In the week of the NFC Championship Game," Schefter said on NFL Live Friday, "Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 in cash on a table and said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'" Those weren't Vilma's exact words, but they were similar, according to Schefter, and he's sure to be atop the league's target list for impending discipline. It's worth nothing that Vilma is due $5.4 million in 2012 and has been discussed as a possible salary cap casualty. We wouldn't expect him back with the Saints.

[ISiddiqui]

Jeez, Louise. Giving bounties to knocking out players? 50k pages of documents detailing such? I mean, what did they have different amounts you could "win" depending on the stats of the person you knocked out?

[Kodos]

I always liked Ward. I hope he can prove the front office wrong and have another productive year or two. Come down to Miami and catch some passes from a guy named Peyton!

[Kodos]

I hope Tracy Porter isn't involved with any of this. One of my favorite guys, being a former Hoosier.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the NFL has determined that MLB Jonathan Vilma was one of the primary culprits in the Saints' "pay for performance" bounty program that will result in NFL discipline.

"In the week of the NFC Championship Game," Schefter said on NFL Live Friday, "Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 in cash on a table and said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'" Those weren't Vilma's exact words, but they were similar, according to Schefter, and he's sure to be atop the league's target list for impending discipline. It's worth nothing that Vilma is due $5.4 million in 2012 and has been discussed as a possible salary cap casualty. We wouldn't expect him back with the Saints.

You can take a player out of The U. But you can't take The U out of a player.

[SirFozzie]

Both the NFL writers I follow (Schefter, Peter King) are saying they expect that the Saints will face penalties that START past what the Pats faced for Spygate (a first round pick taken away) and could be SIGNIFICANTLY harsher, because they found out about it, told the Saints to stop it and the players apparently ignored it,

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

He wasn't. He knew this was coming.

Still, it's been a bit of a sad week in Steelerland with Ward, Farrior and Smith cut (along with Kemo and Battle). None of the cuts are difference-makers on the field - only Farrior was a part time starter - but 3 of those guys epitomized the blue collar ethic that helped the Steelers win two Super Bowls. They're all considered Pro's Pros - character guys with great work ethics, who played at a very high level (all 3 were All Pros) who left it all on the field. As such, it's sad to see three of those kind of guys go in the same off-season.

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I always liked Ward. I hope he can prove the front office wrong and have another productive year or two. Come down to Miami and catch some passes from a guy named Peyton!

Hines is my favorite Steeler player since Mean Joe Green, but I really believe he's done on the football field. He can catch the ball, but he gets zero separation now, so there's no way to get the ball to him. He's not big enough to be a great end-zone target. As such, he's a liability to his team. Yeah, he can still block on running plays, but if you call a pass you can have a LB cover him and the safety doesn't even have to glance twice in his direction.

Originally Posted by stevew

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

+1

I've been saying for two years that Foster is the better guard anyway. When you add in Kemo's predilection for late hits, dumb penalties and generally poor fitness, he's been one of the poorest performers on a bad OL the last 24 months.

[stevew]

I hate that they decided to bring back Colon. I never saw how he was so good, and he's been hella injury prone the last two years. It must have been them trying to make it work one more time since they foolishly gave him an extension already.

Gilbert has to play LT next season, he better be ready.

They still need to get rid of/replace Hampton. He's done.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Both the NFL writers I follow (Schefter, Peter King) are saying they expect that the Saints will face penalties that START past what the Pats faced for Spygate (a first round pick taken away) and could be SIGNIFICANTLY harsher, because they found out about it, told the Saints to stop it and the players apparently ignored it,

Exactly like sending a letter to all the NFL and Belichick ignoring it.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah and the defenders are using the same argument that everybody does it.. but one hes to do with doing an allowed activity from an unhallowed location.. and the other gave bonuses for players taken out on the cart at a time when the nfl is under fire for player health issues

[B & B]

[RedKingGold]

BTW, when they're saying "50,000 pages of documents", I don't think they mean specific documented proof by the Saints that "we agree to pay x to kill y." It's probably stuff like bank documents, media claims (like Adrian Peterson), witness statements.

[Dutch]

Right, that's more like a FOIA type collection so they can look for proof.

[JPhillips]

Franchise tag for Fred Davis?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by B & B

lol

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Hines is my favorite Steeler player since Mean Joe Green, but I really believe he's done on the football field. He can catch the ball, but he gets zero separation now, so there's no way to get the ball to him. He's not big enough to be a great end-zone target. As such, he's a liability to his team. Yeah, he can still block on running plays, but if you call a pass you can have a LB cover him and the safety doesn't even have to glance twice in his direction.

This. Witness the end of the season, forcing the ball to him on bubble screens and, for catch #1000, a shuffle pass, for a 3 yard loss, because that was the only way to ensure he not have a defender right on top of him.

It's sad, but it's time to move forward. Selfishly, I want him to get cut in another team's camp, and return to Pittsburgh to retire.

Originally Posted by stevew

So glad they cut that fat retard Kemo.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

+1

I've been saying for two years that Foster is the better guard anyway. When you add in Kemo's predilection for late hits, dumb penalties and generally poor fitness, he's been one of the poorest performers on a bad OL the last 24 months.

I'm betting in typical Kemo fashion, he started cleaning out his locker just before the announcement was made.

Originally Posted by stevew

I hate that they decided to bring back Colon. I never saw how he was so good, and he's been hella injury prone the last two years. It must have been them trying to make it work one more time since they foolishly gave him an extension already.

Gilbert has to play LT next season, he better be ready.

They still need to get rid of/replace Hampton. He's done.

I think Hamp is back by default. I personally have no problem with moving Hood to NT. Yeah, he's not Hampton, but 1) it gets Heyward on the field more at DE and 2) stopping the run just isn't that important anymore. It's like having the newest, coolest beeper in a word of smartphones. Sure it's the best at what it does, but it's no longer needed.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Exactly like sending a letter to all the NFL and Belichick ignoring it.

Exactly what I thought of.

Not sure how this is "so much worse" when in either case you can point out similarities through both. Goodell's decision should be the same as last time - make his judgement, then destroy all the evidence before it can be questioned further.

[albionmoonlight]

People are going to make the Spygate analogy, but that the two situations have little in common.

The Saints took out bounties on other players and tried to injure them. That's disgusting on a human decency level--it goes beyond football and is much much worse than videotaping opponents.

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games. The Saints did not receive any material advantage from that unworthy scheme.

Spygate was not as disgusting, but it got right at the heart of the competitive nature of the game. There's basically half-a-decade of NFL and Super Bowl history that was mis-written by the Pats. Would Peyton Manning have four Super Bowls by now? Would Kurt Warner have two?

So, they seem to have little in common. From a football perspective, Spygate was worse. From a decent human being perspective, Bountygate was worse.

[SirFozzie]

I'm sorry, the thought that it "miswrote Five years of history" is ludicrous.

"videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

That's all they did. They did something that was not illegal in a place they shouldn't have. Admittedly, they continued to do it after getting the letter from the league (to all teams) that they were not to do it, but comparing the two as equal is ridiculous.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games.

You would have to go back, watch games, and see what kind of injuries happened.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

but comparing the two as equal is ridiculous.

I agree. My thesis is that people want to compare the two, but that they are not comparable. The Patriots cheated. What the Saints did is systematic uncivilized behavior. I think that the punishment should be harsh and unambiguous.

But I also think that Spygate certainly had a big effect on NFL history. The Pats thought that it was worth doing after being directly told in writing not to. They got fined a first round pick for it, and Goddell thought that it would just be better to destroy the evidence.

[DeToxRox]

Loomis has done a lot to destroy the Saints this offseason. Now that they have franchised Brees, Nicks and Colston are gone. Colston is pretty overrated but Nicks leaving is huge. How they couldn't work out a deal with Brees is astounding to me.

[DeToxRox]

FOX Sports' Jay Glazer reports the league will hand down its punishment in the Saints' "bounty" scandal before the March 26-28 owners' meetings.

A ruling could reportedly come as early as next week. Although it's unclear what the league's punishment will be in an unprecedented case, the loss of New Orleans' 2013 first-round pick and the suspension of former DC Gregg Williams are both good bets. Massive fines and additional docked picks are also likely.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

People are going to make the Spygate analogy, but that the two situations have little in common.

The Saints took out bounties on other players and tried to injure them. That's disgusting on a human decency level--it goes beyond football and is much much worse than videotaping opponents.

That said, it did not affect the outcome of any games. The Saints did not receive any material advantage from that unworthy scheme.

Spygate was not as disgusting, but it got right at the heart of the competitive nature of the game. There's basically half-a-decade of NFL and Super Bowl history that was mis-written by the Pats. Would Peyton Manning have four Super Bowls by now? Would Kurt Warner have two?

So, they seem to have little in common. From a football perspective, Spygate was worse. From a decent human being perspective, Bountygate was worse.

I guess this is where I fall. I don't look to the NFL to guide my moral compass. You can be disgusted by what the Saints did as a person, but to the NFL, Spygate should seem worse.

I don't understand how the NFL can say this is worse than a team willfully disregarding a league mandate to quit something that, theoretically, impacted the competitiveness of the teams.