2010-11 Hot Stove League Thread - Grienke is a Baller

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

We might as well just give the award to the pitcher with the best ERA and take the voting out of it.

Oh shit, now you've really done it.

You just said "ERA" when the stat kiddies are already circling, you might as well have tied raw meat around your neck & jumped into a pool filled with baby sharks.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh shit, now you've really done it.

You just said "ERA" when the stat kiddies are already circling, you might as well have tied raw meat around your neck & jumped into a pool filled with baby sharks.

Just trying to make it simple. I already looked at the 3 candidates ERA+.

Felix 174
Price 145
CC 134

If I would have said ERA+ I would have been screwed as well because half the crowd wouldnt have known what I was talking about. Its just the nature of baseball stats these days.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If its the difference between 21 wins and 18 wins its not a huge deal but 13 wins? Some pretty bad pitchers win 13 games in any given season. We also like to comment about how great of a season Felix had. Keep in mind that Felix pitches in a pitchers park while CC pitches in one of the most hitter friendly parks in MLB history.

With that said I have no problems with people saying Felix was the best pitcher in the AL this past year. I just dont like him getting the "Cy Young Award" as I now feel the award has been reduced to something that isnt really a big deal any more. Like you had mentioned the team played games the were meaningless half the year and Felix certainly didnt make much of a difference on this past season.

The award is supposed to honor the best pitcher in each league.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The award is supposed to honor the best pitcher in each league.

OK. If they are awarding it on individual stats I have no argument as that was Felix this past year in the AL. Id prefer seasons like Halladay for the Cy Young Award but I guess we dont always get that lucky.

[jbergey22]

Josh Johnson must feel like crap though. He led the entire MLB in ERA+ and didnt get a single first place vote.

Im only partially kidding here. I 100 percent agree with the Halladay choice I just find it interesting the Josh got no love while Felix won it when they had similiar years.

It seems more like they vote on the best pitcher on a good team unless that pitcher has an ERA they dont like then they just pick the best pitcher. Nothing really consistent about what they do.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If its the difference between 21 wins and 18 wins its not a huge deal but 13 wins? Some pretty bad pitchers win 13 games in any given season. We also like to comment about how great of a season Felix had. Keep in mind that Felix pitches in a pitchers park while CC pitches in one of the most hitter friendly parks in MLB history.

With that said I have no problems with people saying Felix was the best pitcher in the AL this past year. I just dont like him getting the "Cy Young Award" as I now feel the award has been reduced to something that isnt really a big deal any more. Like you had mentioned the team played games the were meaningless half the year and Felix certainly didnt make much of a difference on this past season.

This is a parody, right?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

This year's NL Rookie Class could be one for the ages. - just throwing out there:

- Heyward
- Posey
- Jaime Garcia
- Gaby Sanchez
- Aroldis Chapman (cheating a bit, I know)
- Stratsburg (injured, but still)
- Mike Leake (solid before running out of gas)
- Starlin Castro (playing an above average major league SS at 20)
- Neil Walker / Pedro Alvarez / Jose Tabata (decent young Pirates players)(Bumgarner/Travis Wood)

Over/under on (number in the minors or out of baseball) and (number in a different organization) in 5 years. I'll go 3 and 5.5. Heyward is a no brainer, and Posey and Starlin seem destined for 10+ year careers as well, but as far as pitchers go one is out for all of next year, one threw 13 innings (some ace rookie set-up flamethrowers turn into Mariano Rivera - some Joba or K-Rod) and I'm willing to bet that either Leake or Garcia won't ever match this season's numbers.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

With that said I have no problems with people saying Felix was the best pitcher in the AL this past year. I just dont like him getting the "Cy Young Award" as I now feel the award has been reduced to something that isnt really a big deal any more. Like you had mentioned the team played games the were meaningless half the year and Felix certainly didnt make much of a difference on this past season.

You're serious here? You admit Felix was the best pitcher in the AL this year, but you think giving the Cy Young award to the best pitcher reduces the value of the award?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You're serious here? You admit Felix was the best pitcher in the AL this year, but you think giving the Cy Young award to the best pitcher reduces the value of the award?

Yes, he won 13 games. It wont be long and we will have a pitcher going 9-16 and winning the CYA.

IMO it takes away from the pitchers that won 25+ games not many years ago that also won the award.

It seems you no longer have to win many games or be on a decent team to win this award. I still believe that this winner should have made a difference on the pennant races in some way.

Its just an opinion. I'm not strongly opposed to him getting it. It is basically a product how pitchers are being utilized now which I dont agree with. If Felix could have pitched a few more innings he might have had them 17-18 wins.

[dawgfan]

Fortunately, more and more people are coming around to the realization that wins are not a very good metric by which to judge pitchers, since they have no control over how much run support they get.

The funny thing about some people bitching about Felix winning the Cy Young is that they may be right - he maybe didn't deserve to win it this year. But it's not C.C. or Price that deserved to win over Felix - you could make good arguments for Cliff Lee or Francisco Liriano over Felix.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Fortunately, more and more people are coming around to the realization that wins are not a very good metric by which to judge pitchers, since they have no control over how much run support they get.

The funny thing about some people bitching about Felix winning the Cy Young is that they may be right - he maybe didn't deserve to win it this year. But it's not C.C. or Price that deserved to win over Felix - you could make good arguments for Cliff Lee or Francisco Liriano over Felix.

Yeah I seen that Liriano had a WAR of 6 which I dont really understand. I'm not seeing how Liriano was a more valuable pitcher this year than Sabathia or Price and Im a Twins fan. Liriano either won lopsided or lost lopsided it seemed like to me. He would have one great month followed by a month when he wasnt very good. It seemed odd to me his WAR was so good.

I actually thought Pavano was much better this year. Pavano kept them in most games.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

If Felix could have pitched a few more innings he might have had them 17-18 wins.

He pitched ten more innings than anyone else in the AL and only one less than Halladay. Realistically what do you think the best pitcher, according to you, needs to do to win the best pitcher award if hes on a bad team?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by chadritt

He pitched ten more innings than anyone else in the AL and only one less than Halladay. Realistically what do you think the best pitcher, according to you, needs to do to win the best pitcher award if hes on a bad team?

Win

Its still a game of wins and losses. They dont give a team bonus points for only losing 2-1 to the Yankees.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Win

So throw nothing but shutouts....got it. Not realistic but at least now i see what you want.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by chadritt

So throw nothing but shutouts....got it. Not realistic but at least now i see what you want.

Is that what I said? Do you need to throw a shutout to get a win?

As far as I know the Mariners still got over 3 runs per game in which Felix started. He just needs to pitch a little bit better than his competition as punishment for being on such a shitty team. Maybe he needs to be a better leader and fire their lame asses up when he starts.

I think Felix Hernandez is great but I cant think of any other sport that we reward a player for being on a such a crap team. Chris Johnson had one of the best years in NFL history and was passed up for Peyton Manning despite playing on a team with an 8-8 record. Despite how so many people want to break baseball down into an individual sport it is still a team game and an award should be reflective on the team as well as the individual.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Is that what I said? Do you need to throw a shutout to get a win?

As far as I know the Mariners still got over 3 runs per game in which Felix started. He just needs to pitch a little bit better than his competition as punishment for being on such a shitty team. Maybe he needs to be a better leader and fire their lame asses up when he starts.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Would the rolling of the eyes have anything with you being a bias Mariners fan? I'm sorry that you dont agree. You have the best pitcher in the AL on your team perhaps that ownership over there will eventually get some talent around him so he can win the award without people questioning it

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Would the rolling of the eyes have anything with you being a bias Mariners fan? I'm sorry that you dont agree. You have the best pitcher in the AL on your team perhaps that ownership over there will eventually get some talent around him so he can win the award without people questioning it

I would have done exactly the same had it been a pitcher on a different team. Your views on pitcher "wins" are archaic, and I'm glad those views are now clearly in the minority and getting smaller every year.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I would have done exactly the same had it been a pitcher on a different team. Your views on pitcher "wins" are archaic, and I'm glad those views are now clearly in the minority and getting smaller every year.

Like I said earlier lets just throw out pitching wins and give the Cy Young Awards to Felix Hernandez and Josh Johnson. Clearly the best two pitchers in baseball this year since they led each league in ERA+. Why even vote on it?

I am joking. I agree completely that wins are overrated but 13 in a season on a team that won 61 games? I mean come on. Cy Young is rolling around in his grave.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

You are arguing that the best pitcher award should be decided based on the fact that CC Sabathia signed with the Yankees whereas Felix Hernandez was signed as an amateur by the Mariners. In your world, this is the deciding action in the award given to the pitcher who pitched the best last year.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Is that what I said? Do you need to throw a shutout to get a win?

Let's take a look at each of Felix's losses and see what he would have needed to do in order to get a win.

4/26 - 7 innings, 2 earned runs, and a 3-1 loss. Would have taken a shutout to get a win.

5/1 - Felix gets roughed up a bit and the Mariners lose 6-3

5/7 - Felix roughed up again, but it doesn't matter because the Mariners don't score a run and lose 8-0. Not even a shutout wins this one.

5/23 - Felix pitches 7 innings, gives up 2 earned runs, and the Mariners still lose 8-1. Shutout doesn't win this one.

6/8 - Felix gives up 7 runs over 6 but it doesn't matter as they lose 7-1. Shutout would have been needed here to win.

7/16 - 8 innings and 3 earned runs in a 3-2 loss.

7/26 - 7 innings and 2 earned runs in a 6-1 loss. Would have needed a shutout here.

7/31 - Pitches 7 innings and allows 3 earned runs in a 4-0 loss. Shutout doesn't win this one.

8/5 - 6.2 innings and 3 earned runs in a 6-0 loss. Another game where not even a shutout gets the win.

8/15 - 6.2 innings, 0 earned runs, 9-1 loss. Needed to pitch a shutout.

9/11 - 6.1 innings, 4 earned runs, 7-4 loss. Jack Morris is likely able to pitch to the score and get a win here. Felix couldn't.

9/23 - 8 innings, 1 earned run, 1-0 loss. Shutout doesn't win this game.

No decisions? Felix pitched 3 games where the Mariners only scored 1 run and in those 3 games Felix allowed a combined total of 1 run. He had 4 other no decisions where he went at least 7 innings and gave up 2 runs or less.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think Felix Hernandez is great but I cant think of any other sport that we reward a player for being on a such a crap team. Chris Johnson had one of the best years in NFL history and was passed up for Peyton Manning despite playing on a team with an 8-8 record. Despite how so many people want to break baseball down into an individual sport it is still a team game and an award should be reflective on the team as well as the individual.

The Cy Young award is not the MVP award. It isn't meant to be a MVP award or a variation of a MVP award. It simply goes to the best pitcher in that specific league.

If you want an award from another sport to compare it to then look at the NFL's Defensive Player of the Year award where we've had such winners as:

'06 Jason Taylor - 6-10
'04 Ed Reed - 9-7 (no playoffs)
'01 Michael Strahan - 7-9
'92 Cortez Kennedy - 2-14

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Some pretty bad pitchers win 13 games in any given season.

Thank you for making our point for us. If terrible pitchers can win 13 games, and great pitchers can win 13 games, then what does that tell you about the win statistic?

I realize it's difficult to reconcile the new way of looking at the quality of baseball players - mainly because it is incongruous with the way we've treated them for 100 years - but you just can't ignore the advancements we've made in measuring what it really means to be a great baseball player, just so we can make sure that the Pete Vuckovich's of the world continue to receive awards they don't deserve simply because "that's the way we've always done it."

Yes, in another era, CC Sabbathia would probably end up with 4+ Cy Young awards. But unfortunately for him, he's just going to have to be content with $161M and (hopefully only) 1 world series.

[Atocep]

As a comparison Roy Halladay had 2 games where he pitched 7 innings, allowed 2 runs or less, and had a no decision or a loss. Sabathia had 3. Felix had 11 such games for those counting.

Rather easy for Halladay to say it comes down to winning and losing.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh shit, now you've really done it.

You just said "ERA" when the stat kiddies are already circling, you might as well have tied raw meat around your neck & jumped into a pool filled with baby sharks.

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Mr. Chass is an idiot, precisely because no one needs these "new-fangled" stats to figure out that Felix Hernandez was the better pitcher this year. This isn't about Wins vs. xFIP or SIERA or BABIP, it's simple Wins vs. IP and ERA and Ks. You know, those numbers that were just invented last week by a bunch of us sitting in our mom's basements.

That's what makes this so ridiculous. This isn't even about some stat invented in 2008 that is chapping everyone's ass. It's simply putting wins in their proper perspective given the modern use of the starting pitcher, and evaluating all the other numbers that have been around for decades. Feliz is easily the best pitcher in the AL.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think Felix Hernandez is great but I cant think of any other sport that we reward a player for being on a such a crap team. Chris Johnson had one of the best years in NFL history and was passed up for Peyton Manning despite playing on a team with an 8-8 record. Despite how so many people want to break baseball down into an individual sport it is still a team game and an award should be reflective on the team as well as the individual.

Incidentally, Chris Johnson did with the Offensive Player of the Year, much like Felix winning the Pitching Player of the Year.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Win

Its still a game of wins and losses. They dont give a team bonus points for only losing 2-1 to the Yankees.

They have an award for what you are looking for - it's called making the playoffs. Wins are a team stat, and the teams with the most of them go to the playoffs.

I don't see how this is debatable. Look at the percentage of complete games in the majors over the past 30 years. When pitchers finished what they started, then yes, you could argue they "earned" the record they received. That's still misleading because they have no control over the offense or over the quality of the fielders behind them, but I understand it. Today? Starters go 6-7 innings, maybe 8. Look at the percentage of decisions pitchers get compared to yesteryear.

Roy Halladay is a great pitcher. He completes games. But he's also pitched on decent and (now) really good teams. If you transported Roy Halladay to 1970 and put him on the San Diego Padres, and gave him the same underlying numbers adjusted for that year, he probably would have thrown 350 innings with a low 2 ERA - and went something like 14-22. There's nothing magical about Roy Halladay that makes him a "winner." he's just a great pitcher who hasn't played on terrible teams.

I don't think people understand how bad the Mariners offense was. They were last in the AL in runs scored... by 100 runs! The Orioles were next, but even they scored 100 more runs than the Mariners. That's historically awful stuff.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Feliz is easily the best pitcher in the AL.

Except for the fact that he doesn't win much. It isn't an award for "best stuff" or "best stats", it's for "best pitcher" ... and pitchers who aren't winning have a ceiling on their value afaic.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The Cy Young award is not the MVP award. It isn't meant to be a MVP award or a variation of a MVP award. It simply goes to the best pitcher in that specific league.

If you want an award from another sport to compare it to then look at the NFL's Defensive Player of the Year award where we've had such winners as:

'06 Jason Taylor - 6-10
'04 Ed Reed - 9-7 (no playoffs)
'01 Michael Strahan - 7-9
'92 Cortez Kennedy - 2-14

This. If Felix won the MVP Award, then jbergey might have a point. The analogy to Offensive/Defensive Player of the Year awards in other leagues is accurate.

[Ksyrup]

Best pitcher means the pitcher who has demonstrated he is the best at controlling the things he can control. Otherwise, it's a team award. I don't see how you can saddle a pitcher with his team's offense or defense when he has absolutely nothing to do with either. Or conversely, how you can award a mediocre pitcher for lucking into a bunch of wins. How does that pass even the faintest amount of scrutiny? You have to consciously ignore the substance to get to that place.

This is exactly like the RBI argument - ignoring the obvious lack of correlation between the stat and the player's value and the influence the rest of the team has on the stat. There's a reason why ARod had 125 RBIs but barely made the top 40 in OPS, while Miguel Cabrera had one more RBI than him yet had the second-best OPS., nearly .200 points higher than ARod. And it ain't because ARod is clutch and knows how to win.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

" ... and pitchers who aren't winning have a ceiling on their value afaic.

Teams win, pitchers pitch. And Felix pitched better than any pitcher, including those who played on teams that won a lot of games.

[Crapshoot]

Bingo. Its like arguing with people who think the Sun revolves round the Earth.

[molson]

Why is everyone so positive what the Cy Young award is "supposed" to be? Is there an official MLB award writeup somewhere I've never seen?

It's like all-star games selection. People assume that it's supposed to be the players with the best statistical performance the first 3 months of the season (or earlier depending on when you vote), and I don't think that was ever the intention, and it's certainly not on any ballot intructions.

Players on bad teams should be penalized if, for no other reason, they played well only in glorified exhibition games all year. With Felix, I think he overcame that penalty by being so dominant, but there's more to these awards than spitting numbers into a computer and having it spit back the correct answer. Human bias SHOULD be a part of it. I think we're reaching a point where that's a minority view though, and all of these awards are eventually just going to be given out automatically via statistical analysis. Maybe soon after that we can just award the win in a game to the team that deserves it statistically.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

Players on bad teams should be penalized if, for no other reason, they played well only in glorified exhibition games all year. With Felix, I think he overcame that penalty by being so dominant, but there's more to these awards than spitting numbers into a computer and having it spit back the correct answer.

Exactly!

I never claimed any other pitcher was better than Felix in the AL. My beef was giving it to a pitcher with 13 wins on a team with 61 team wins. It just bothers me that he was so unimportant to the AL last year and gets this award. In 20 years people will be asking "How the hell did Felix Hernandez win the Cy Young Award in 2010?" People will look back on this year and laugh at the guy that won 13 games and took home the CYA.

Its good that voters are looking at other things besides wins but now I believe they are leaning to far the other way. This makes is possible that a pitcher with a losing record will win the CYA.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

In 20 years people will be asking "How the hell did Felix Hernandez win the Cy Young Award in 2010?" People will look back on this year and laugh at the guy that won 13 games and took home the CYA.

You can't be serious. Felix's 13 wins would have probably counted for 25-30 wins on a good team. He was the best pitcher in the AL, and THAT is what people will be looking back on in twenty years.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

You can't be serious. Felix's 13 wins would have probably counted for 25-30 wins on a good team. He was the best pitcher in the AL, and THAT is what people will be looking back on in twenty years.

I guess we need to change everything about voting. Nothing is "as is" any more. We have to assume 9000 different scenarios to find the right answer.

My mistake for treating the award as what you actually did on the field the year before. It didnt even cross my mind to throw King Felix on the Yankees/Rays/ or Rangers.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

It just bothers me that he was so unimportant to the AL last year and gets this award.

He was 3-0 against the Yankees this season. They finished one game behind Tampa Bay for the division title. It is a bit disingenuous to say he was unimportant to the AL.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

My mistake for treating the award as what you actually did on the field the year before.

The problem with your analysis is that you are arguing we should treat the award as what your teammates actually did on the field the year before.

[jbergey22]

I think what this thread is proving is that people dont want these awards voted on anymore. Just give it to the hitter with the highest Win Shares and the Pitcher with the highest Win Shares and throw everything else out.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

You can't be serious. Felix's 13 wins would have probably counted for 25-30 wins on a good team. He was the best pitcher in the AL, and THAT is what people will be looking back on in twenty years.

Conversely, Joe Poz ran Steve Carlton's 1972 season with Seattle's 2010 offense and even with him making 40 starts and completing 75% of them, his record suddenly drops to 20-12. Factor in modern starter usage and bullpens, and 1972 Steve Carlton probably is lucky to win 13-15 games with the 2010 Seattle Mariners.

Oh, and if you put Felix on the 1972 Phillies (a pretty shitty team, obviously), he goes 18-11 in 7 fewer starts than Carlton got that year.

And then there's this comparison between Felix and CC, when talking about the things that are not under the pitcher's control:

In the 17 quality starts which Felix did not win, the bullpen allowed runs in 12 of the 15 games in which they appeared. In those games, the Seattle bullpen had a 9.29 ERA and a 2.19 WHIP.

Meanwhile, the Yankee bullpen appeared in 20 of Sabathia's 21 wins and held opponents scoreless in 18 of those 20 games. The Yankee bullpen in those games had a 1.47 ERA and a 0.91 WHIP. And those two games when they did allow runs? The Yankees were already ahead 8-1 in the 9th and 10-5 in the 8th.

Yep, it's pretty clear that Felix "just doesn't know how to win."

[cartman]

Eric Gagne won the Cy Young in 2003 with only 2 wins!!! OMG!!! How has baseball survived that clear indignity???!!!?

[TurnerONU22]

I'm too lazy to look this up (and I really don't know where to find this), but is there a quality of competition metric that can at least show that Hernandez faced the same quality of hitters than CC or Price did?

I think wins are important, but at the same time, you're not going to see anything less than 13 wins take the Cy Young 99% of the time because you're not going to see as intrepid an offense as Seattle's come around more than once a decade or so (maybe someone more knowledgeable can put how bad their offense is in perspective). So anyone who is harping on someone with a losing record winning the trophy is crazy, because to accomplish that, their team's offense would have to be the worst in history combined with amazing stats that only come around every 10 years.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think what this thread is proving is that people dont want these awards voted on anymore. Just give it to the hitter with the highest Win Shares and the Pitcher with the highest Win Shares and throw everything else out.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I just want voters to use meaningful criteria to determine who to vote for.

Baseball is inherently a game of numbers. Long before I'd ever heard of sabremetrics, I was messing with stats keeping manual score of my Strat-O-Matic games. You can't expect a game so thoroughly dependent on stats to just ignore them when it's convenient.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by TurnerONU22

I'm too lazy to look this up (and I really don't know where to find this), but is there a quality of competition metric that can at least show that Hernandez faced the same quality of hitters than CC or Price did?

I think wins are important, but at the same time, you're not going to see anything less than 13 wins take the Cy Young 99% of the time because you're not going to see as intrepid an offense as Seattle's come around more than once a decade or so (maybe someone more knowledgeable can put how bad their offense is in perspective). So anyone who is harping on someone with a losing record winning the trophy is crazy, because to accomplish that, their team's offense would have to be the worst in history combined with amazing stats that only come around every 10 years.

Here's an article on just how inept Seattle's offense was this past season:

Worst major league offenses of all time - ESPN

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

The problem with your analysis is that you are arguing we should treat the award as what your teammates actually did on the field the year before.

Well yes I do consider baseball a team game. We could break it down a million different ways. CC plays in a sandbox with a average defensive team. Price also played on a team that wasnt consistently good at hitting especially against leftys. Liriano was crappy for 1/3 of the season. Cliff Lee went in a rutt in August but also played in the most "hitter friendly" park in the AL them months. King Felix was great but played on a crappy team that couldnt score him runs. If everyone can figure all of this stuff out why do they even need to vote on it?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I think what this thread is proving is that people dont want these awards voted on anymore. Just give it to the hitter with the highest Win Shares and the Pitcher with the highest Win Shares and throw everything else out.

Hmm, then I guess we should have given it to Cliff Lee or Justin Verlander.

[TurnerONU22]

There's just simply too much reliance on the bullpen for a W than there was 20 years ago. It simply devalues that stat, when someone else's crappy performance can cost you a W.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I guess we need to change everything about voting. Nothing is "as is" any more. We have to assume 9000 different scenarios to find the right answer.

My mistake for treating the award as what you actually did on the field the year before. It didnt even cross my mind to throw King Felix on the Yankees/Rays/ or Rangers.

I was making a point regarding your blanket statement:

It just bothers me that he was so unimportant to the AL last year and gets this award.

You also said:

My beef was giving it to a pitcher with 13 wins on a team with 61 team wins.

According to your logic, a pitcher whom was responsible for nearly 1/5th of the team's wins was unimportant to the AL, and I am disagreeing with you. Laugh all you want, but I fail to see your logic in this particular argument.

[Atocep]

Pedro Martinez = 76th best pitcher in baseball history. Just behind Jerry Reuss.

[Young Drachma]

I don't think the award is undeserved.

[TurnerONU22]

Just saw on Jayson Stark's blog that Felix received the worst run support of any pitcher in this millennium. Yeah, I don't think you're going to have to worry about 13 wins or less winning the Cy Young every season.