2015-2016 Republican Primary Season - Trump Courts the Conservatives

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's the favorability that I find amazing. With that high name recognition, favorables just don't move much. I'm not sure I've ever seen a flip like that.

There's, uh...I'm not going to open that can of worms here, but you don't have to think real hard to come up with exactly what the reason for that might be.

Of course, the attack on veterans might be corrosive enough to eat the bottom out of that boat he's in.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well there's some horrifying imagery for the day

I know the guy might have some luggage. But I have to tell you, living in Philadelphia, and seeing how he ran his state, and how well he did post-Katrina when other mayors, governors, and other folks were well, not doing a very good job, Christie is my default candidate to vote for when the primaries come around unless someone else convinces me otherwise.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Is he basically playing to the "rebel" vote? One that may have mistrusted him initially for his big city, New York veneer but love that he is pulling no punches and attacking targets they're not particularly fond of? And doing so while other candidates might be seen as tiptoeing around things?

I'd say right now that's virtually the ONLY thing he has going for him. Well that & by and large saying the right things when he speak. Not sure how today's will play overall, can certainly be used to bludgeon him but for as hamfisted as it was I certainly have no problem at all with him calling out a p.o.s. RINO like McCain.

Appreciate the service but as politicians go McCain ain't worth a damn. (and after hearing him speak about FCC deregulation a few years back, I became convinced that he's one genuinely ignorant -- if not outright stupid -- son of a bitch).

The OTHER thing Trump has in his favor is that he -- pending the outcome of today -- hasn't utterly botched anything he's said thus far. The more he talks, the higher the odds become however (true for anybody, politician or otherwise).

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Appreciate the service but as politicians go McCain ain't worth a damn. (and after hearing him speak about FCC deregulation a few years back, I became convinced that he's one genuinely ignorant -- if not outright stupid -- son of a bitch).

You know, you'd think I'd have been more aware of the politics involved there over the past 15 years...

(McCain was for deregulation, yes? That seems like a generally Republican stance.)

As for Trump, part of me wonders to what extent he knows seemingly "outrageous" things he says will fly. I mean, he has to realize that quite a few Republicans (as opposed to Republican office holders, or what they can say publicly) weren't exactly thrilled with McCain, right? He seems crazy but there has to be some strategy here, though I can't imagine what he's doing would lead to him winning a general election. Pick up enough steam to gain inclusion in the debates (he loves being on the TV) and/or outlast other candidates? Perot got pretty far being crazy and spouting whatever the heck came to mind. Or maybe he's just looking to cash in on attention to feed his ego and figures this is a good way to do it.

[BillJasper]

Trump wants to disagree with McCain on the issues? More power to him. But he's a douchebag attacking McCain's military service. I doubt the pompous ass could've lasted a day in a Vietnam prison camp.

[RainMaker]

Trump is great for the guys who are farther to the right like Cruz. He makes everyone in the race look more compassionate. If he didn't have a track record for being a thin-skinned weirdo, I'd have thought he was purposely in the race to make the others look good to moderates.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

You know, you'd think I'd have been more aware of the politics involved there over the past 15 years...

(McCain was for deregulation, yes? That seems like a generally Republican stance.)

McCain was the patron of FCC deregulation chief Michael Powell (going so far as to unseat a sitting GOP member of the board in order to get Powell in place) but eventually ended up, IIRC, voting against the final bill. Yes, that's as contradictory as it sounds.

My problem with McCain vis a vis broadcast deregulation isn't with his position(s) but rather specifically with hearing him give one of the THE worst interviews in the history of politics.

He was talking to Sean Hannity as I recall, and it was the most bewildering 20 minutes I've ever heard from any politician. Think along the lines of the guy (name escapes me) who described the internet as "a series of tubes" ... except worse.

The longer McCain babbled on the more I realized that he -- the man described at the time as the "lynchpin of deregulation" -- had less understanding of ANYTHING he was talking about than (insert random person) my mother. It was frightening & spellbinding at the same time, it was a chilling combination of doubletalk and nonsense. The average person would have just glazed over but for anyone with any experience in the industry at all, the contradictions and misuse of terms were glaring. Someone taught him to pronounce various words, nobody bothered to teach him the meanings of them nor how they interacted with each other.

It was to the extent that, on that day, I realized the man was a complete charlatan, utterly out of his depth ... but trying to fake it for all he was worth.

[cuervo72]

Oh, well that's how I assume at least half of Congress to be like. I mean, it's impossible to have a grasp on every subject, but I bet most members of committees don't know jack about the subject matter of the committee past what their lobbyists tell them. Especially for matters of science and technology. That or they're just in their pockets. Or there are the ones who are just flat out not very bright.

[Dutch]

I am still waiting to the Trump thing to go away so we can start getting after the real candidates.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I am still waiting to the Trump thing to go away so we can start getting after the real candidates.

Along those lines, here's an intriguing Top 10 read from the event Trump was at yesterday. Trump is only one of the top 10, so the other 9 give you a glimpse of what's going on here in Iowa:

STEVE DEACE: 2016 Iowa caucuses: Did Trump implode, has Jindal arrived? - Washington Times

[Kodos]

From Rev's article:


"They were helping to stage a pro-life demonstration outside the auditorium demanding the defunding of death merchant Planned Parenthood."

Shakes head.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I am still waiting to the Trump thing to go away so we can start getting after the real candidates.

Let me know if you ever find one

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Let me know if you ever find one

Heh, I mean, serious threats to landing the gig.

(and yes...I've already come to the realization that re-animating Reagan is still centuries away.)

[ISiddiqui]

So Kasich is apparently going to it make it 16 in the clown car this week. So if Jindal declares... that's 17. Yikes!

[Dutch]

The Democratics still have room in their clown car...so far its just Hillary and her limo driver.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So Kasich is apparently going to it make it 16 in the clown car this week. So if Jindal declares... that's 17. Yikes!

Kasich's got a brewing scandal about charter schools that I'm not sure he's going to be able to survive.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Kasich's got a brewing scandal about charter schools that I'm not sure he's going to be able to survive.

His candidacy isn't going to survive his position on amnesty for illegals. Charter schools won't be nearly as important.

He's a guy running in the wrong party.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by rowech

Kasich's got a brewing scandal about charter schools that I'm not sure he's going to be able to survive.

I don't know if it's related, but my wife (a professor of Education at an Ohio university) had discovered some really disturbing things about a conglomerate operating a bunch of Charters in Ohio. If that's the direct result of lobbying Kasich, it should finish him. The sad thing is that the same company is trying to gain a foothold in nearby states.

I like the idea of Charters. But it's very tricky in practice.

[Clark]

Today Scott Walker signed a bill banning abortions after 20-weeks. No exemptions for rape, incest or the health of the mother.

Also, he signed a contract with the State Patrol giving them a 6% pay raise over the next two years. All other State employees will receive 0% over that time period. The State Troopers Association supported Walker when he ran for governor. They are still allowed to collectively bargain.

[Dutch]

I'm not up to speed on charter schools, but the one my daughter won a lottery to attend is awesome.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Clark

Today Scott Walker signed a bill banning abortions after 20-weeks. No exemptions for rape, incest or the health of the mother.

That sort of stuff is seriously going to kill him in this race at some point.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That sort of stuff is seriously going to kill him in this race at some point.

Agreed we should go with the scientific number on how late in the game we can coat-hanger "non-baby but damn near a baby!" fetuses.

[Izulde]

I'm still inclined to think Trump is the greatest troll in American political history.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'm still inclined to think Trump is the greatest troll in American political history.

I think that he lacks the self-awareness to be a traditional troll. He is just in this for the attention, but I think that that's all on a subconscious level.

So, I guess he is a troll. But he's also trolling himself, if that makes any sense.

I still think that he'll be a distant memory by the time the caucuses roll around.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Clark

Today Scott Walker signed a bill banning abortions after 20-weeks. No exemptions for rape, incest or the health of the mother.

Also, he signed a contract with the State Patrol giving them a 6% pay raise over the next two years. All other State employees will receive 0% over that time period. The State Troopers Association supported Walker when he ran for governor. They are still allowed to collectively bargain.

The bolded point is relevant, and just one example of crony government from the guy.

To be fair, however, a lot of the raise involved is retroactive - they haven't seen an increase at all since before Walker took office, so it's not like this is coming out of nowhere. It's also a raise about 1/3 the size of what Walker wanted (he wanted 17%, the Legislature gave him 6%), so I guess bully for the Legislature for standing up to him?

But, yeah. I mean, I get not asking public safety workers like the state troopers or other first responders to pay more towards health costs or what-have-you the way he did for the teachers. Whether or not I agree with it, I can understand carving out an exception for "look, these folks do a dangerous job and we should take care of them for that."

It's the "teachers being allowed to collectively bargain harms the state's financial health but fire and police workers should totally have collective bargaining rights" BS I object to.

[SackAttack]

Also, Kasich formally running.

That's gonna be a weird contrast with Walker. Both guys went after the public unions, but Ohio structurally gives citizens the ability to say 'oh no you fucking didn't,' and Ohio's law got repealed by an overwhelming margin.

Wisconsin voters can't do that. So Walker has continued to hammer the unions because there's literally nobody who's going to balk him on it. The Legislature has been a rubber stamp for most of his governorship, and the only way for Wisconsin voters to put a stop to it is either to recall Walker (he already survived that challenge) or to somehow overcome the post-2010 gerrymandering that sees Democrats get about 60% of the votes for Assembly seats while walking away with about 40% of the actual seats.

So Kasich is taking the kinder, gentler approach with unions these days after having his nose bloodied the first time, and Walker is just blithely doing whatever the shit he feels like.

[Dutch]

So I guess the Democratics bow to unions non-stop just from the threat of getting bloodied?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'm still inclined to think Trump is the greatest troll in American political history.

Uhh, I think I'm becoming more convinced that you're right.

.@CBSNews can confirm that the number Trump just read out on stage in South Carolina is Lindsey Graham's cell number.

— DJ Judd (@juddzeez) July 21, 2015

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'm still inclined to think Trump is the greatest troll in American political history.

538 doesn't limit it to politics

Donald Trump Is The World’s Greatest Troll | FiveThirtyEight

[JonInMiddleGA]

Anything that discomfits a p.o.s. RINO like Graham is only going to add to Trump's momentum at this point.

The harder Trump goes at these characters, the more I'm starting to wonder if he isn't going to make himself a legitimate threat for the nomination.

Personality, a willingness to call out characters that many feel are sorely deserving of it AND simply showing a set of actual balls instead of the capitulation that we see from too many others ... well, that definitely has a lot of appeal. And it's generating legitimate enthusiasm, something that relatively few of his primary opponents have shown an ability to do (and certainly something that the recent nominees have utterly failed at).

I STILL don't believe he's got the portfolio to be the best choice for President ... but with every passing day it's starting to look as though he might at least have the right attitude to put himself in the conversation.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Anything that discomfits a p.o.s. RINO like Graham is only going to add to Trump's momentum at this point.

The harder Trump goes at these characters, the more I'm starting to wonder if he isn't going to make himself a legitimate threat for the nomination.

Personality, a willingness to call out characters that many feel are sorely deserving of it AND simply showing a set of actual balls instead of the capitulation that we see from too many others ... well, that definitely has a lot of appeal. And it's generating legitimate enthusiasm, something that relatively few of his primary opponents have shown an ability to do (and certainly something that the recent nominees have utterly failed at).

I STILL don't believe he's got the portfolio to be the best choice for President ... but with every passing day it's starting to look as though he might at least have the right attitude to put himself in the conversation.

The problem is that the traits tend to be mutually exclusive. People with the passionate feelings and willingness and what-the-fuck-attitude to speak the base's truth to the establishment tend not to have the portfolio/experience/temperament to actually run a successful serious campaign. And vice-versa.

The last guy who was able to combine both beat Carter 489-49 and Mondale 525-13.

[NobodyHere]

I have to admit, the idea of a Trump presidency just seems awesome right now, just to get a change from politicians who give over polished speeches but accomplish nothing.

At least Trump is interesting to listen to.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I have to admit, the idea of a Trump presidency just seems awesome right now, just to get a change from politicians who give over polished speeches but accomplish nothing.

At least Trump is interesting to listen to.

Sure. He says what politicians don't say.

However, this includes a foreign policy that would make the mess Bush started and Obama exacerbated so much worse. His idea of handling ISIS is, again, to bomb Iraq's oil fields. There's the genesis of an idea that cutting off ISIS' access to money is a good thing, but it's not really where ISIS gets its money and it would cause a dozen other problems.

He seems to approach foreign policy like it's an episode of The Apprentice. He pretends to listen for ten minutes, then he cuts off discussion and fires someone for some arbitrary small-picture reason.

Trump is divisive. And in a political world that's already far too divisive, I think he's too destructive to be worth the novelty he brings to the field.

However, he won't win.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I have to admit, the idea of a Trump presidency just seems awesome right now, just to get a change from politicians who give over polished speeches but accomplish nothing.

At least Trump is interesting to listen to.

Oh hell no. If he or governor fat ass get anywhere near the nomination I may have to get a rifle.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Also, Kasich formally running.

That's gonna be a weird contrast with Walker. Both guys went after the public unions, but Ohio structurally gives citizens the ability to say 'oh no you fucking didn't,' and Ohio's law got repealed by an overwhelming margin.

Wisconsin voters can't do that. So Walker has continued to hammer the unions because there's literally nobody who's going to balk him on it. The Legislature has been a rubber stamp for most of his governorship, and the only way for Wisconsin voters to put a stop to it is either to recall Walker (he already survived that challenge) or to somehow overcome the post-2010 gerrymandering that sees Democrats get about 60% of the votes for Assembly seats while walking away with about 40% of the actual seats.

So Kasich is taking the kinder, gentler approach with unions these days after having his nose bloodied the first time, and Walker is just blithely doing whatever the shit he feels like.

Governor is supposed to represent the taxpayers best interest. And the people of Wisconsin seem to agree with his approach.

Why are people so upset when the person in charge of their tax dollars tries to find the best deal?

[JPhillips]

If the GOP had six candidates instead of sixteen I don't think Trump would be close to the lead, but it doesn't take much to lead a field so fractured. In the end I bet his ceiling is the Crazification Factor(27%).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Oh hell no. If he or governor fat ass get anywhere near the nomination I may have to get a rifle.

SINCE you went there ... I might possibly perhaps could hypothetically say something vaguely similar to that about a significant number of declared candidates in both parties.

Somewhat ironically, the relative size of the GOP field means there's probably more of them than there are of the D's.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Oh hell no. If he or governor fat ass get anywhere near the nomination I may have to get a rifle.

But consider this: today Trump gave out Lindsey Graham's personal number.

How awesome would it be if Trump gave out Putin's phone number? Imagine calling up the leader of China and ordering some take-out. The possibilities are endless!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

But consider this: today Trump have out Lindsey Graham's personal number.

How awesome would it be if Trump gave out Putin's phone number? Imagine calling up the leader of China and ordering some take-out. The possibilities are endless!

I don't despise Putin or any Chinese politician nearly as much as I loathe Graham. There really isn't anything Trump could do to Graham -- or any other RINO -- that could make me so much as twitch an eyelash.

So, honestly, do you really think a hypothetical is going to have any bearing there?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Governor is supposed to represent the taxpayers best interest. And the people of Wisconsin seem to agree with his approach.

Why are people so upset when the person in charge of their tax dollars tries to find the best deal?

That $67 he saved my family on property taxes was sold to us as something that will jumpstart the state's economy.... Still waiting for that to happen.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

But consider this: today Trump have out Lindsey Graham's personal number.

How awesome would it be if Trump gave out Putin's phone number? Imagine calling up the leader of China and ordering some take-out. The possibilities are endless!

I saw what he did to many businesses in Atlantic City. Signing contracts, getting million dollars worth of products and services, not paying and then going bankrupt, paying out pennies on the dollar. Many businesses went under because of him, including his own.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lungs

That $67 he saved my family on property taxes was sold to us as something that will jumpstart the state's economy.... Still waiting for that to happen.

That's a fair complaint. I think complaining that he won't overpay for services is kind of silly though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If the GOP had six candidates instead of sixteen I don't think Trump would be close to the lead, but it doesn't take much to lead a field so fractured. In the end I bet his ceiling is the Crazification Factor(27%).

Agreed. I think for a lot of backers of those on the lower end of the 16, their second (or third or fourth) choice would definitely not be Trump.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I saw what he did to many businesses in Atlantic City. Signing contracts, getting million dollars worth of products and services, not paying and then going bankrupt, paying out pennies on the dollar. Many businesses went under because of him, including his own.

Which, btw, is going to make a debate exchange between Trump and Christie quite fantastic to watch.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I saw what he did to many businesses in Atlantic City. Signing contracts, getting million dollars worth of products and services, not paying and then going bankrupt, paying out pennies on the dollar. Many businesses went under because of him, including his own.

Right now, no one is really paying attention to Trump in a detailed way. He barks loudly but what is going to happen when people start bringing up all the shady shit he's done over the years?

I don't think he has a real shot at the nomination. He's entertainment right now.

[ISiddiqui]

An idea - now that we have 16, can we have a debate tournament? Maybe 4 debates of 4 and then have 2 winners in each debate, and have semifinal debates of 4 each and then a Final with 4? We can seed them and everything!

[RainMaker]

Trump doesn't stand a chance. He riles up the most entrenched supporters because most people don't care about the election yet. When people start to care he'll fall off a cliff. This happens every election cycle.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So I guess the Democratics bow to unions non-stop just from the threat of getting bloodied?

Dutch, I don't know what you think you're accomplishing with "Democrat Party" and "Democratics," but every time you open your mouth that way, I take you less seriously.

Is that your goal? Or is this some kind of passive-aggressive trolling so that you can get your digs in without crossing Jim's "don't get personal" line?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Trump doesn't stand a chance. He riles up the most entrenched supporters because most people don't care about the election yet. When people start to care he'll fall off a cliff. This happens every election cycle.

Howard Dean - YouTube

Yeah!!!

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Governor is supposed to represent the taxpayers best interest. And the people of Wisconsin seem to agree with his approach.

Why are people so upset when the person in charge of their tax dollars tries to find the best deal?

Because the thing is, he's not acting in the best interest of the taxpayers. To the extent THAT'S a thing, it's superficial.

Look, he enacts Act 10 to bust the public unions, especially the teachers. He pushes for repeated cuts to education spending. You know what REALLY drives employers wild and makes them want to move to a state? Hint: It's not attacking the education system. They want an educated workforce that can do the shit they need done. So, yay, people save a median of 70 bucks on property taxes, but the damage done to the rest of the state infrastructure is incalculable.

Additionally, and this bears repeating with a loud fucking megaphone, the teachers' union AGREED TO EVERY FINANCIAL CONCESSION WALKER ASKED FOR. The ONE thing they disagreed with was the complete neutering of their collective bargaining rights. They have no rights, in the state of Wisconsin, to bargain for ANYTHING outside of cost-of-living raises anymore. Not one. Damned. Thing. The financial concessions the governor said were essential to saving the state, the teachers agreed to. But that wasn't enough for him.

Now, moving forward five years, you talk about him acting in the best interests of the taxpayers?

Just what do you call it when the governor proposes cutting higher education funding by $300 million and taking out $300 million in loans that the state won't begin to repay for 13 years, to pay for a new basketball arena for billionaire ownership that doesn't want to fund it themselves? The state will be incurring interest for THIRTEEN YEARS before the first check is written to pay down that debt, and it's to build the Bucks a new arena. Sports facilities are a shell game. They don't ever return the kind of economic benefits sports franchise owners claim they will when they insist cities should foot the bill.

That's what he is fiscally. He's not fiscally conservative, and he CERTAINLY doesn't give a shit about getting "taxpayers" the best deal.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's a fair complaint. I think complaining that he won't overpay for services is kind of silly though.

Except in his zeal to cut services, he DID end up overpaying for them. Funding was reduced for things like bridge repair/construction. A bridge here in Green Bay sagged, had to be shut down, and needed emergency repairs conducted at greater cost than what normal maintenance would have been in the first place.

Why? He had tax cuts to hand out, dummy. Who needs things like infrastructure when you can be a tax cut champion?