06-19-2015, 11:20 PM | #151 |
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I do think people other than blacks and Mexicans rob people.
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06-19-2015, 11:21 PM | #152 | |
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There's lots of beautiful places in Mexico (I'm going there myself in September), but the death tolls and the disintegration of local governments over the course of the drug wars have been pretty crazy - though its calmed down a little the last couple of years. |
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06-19-2015, 11:24 PM | #153 |
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06-19-2015, 11:27 PM | #154 |
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Its the zombie apocalypse for me.
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06-19-2015, 11:31 PM | #155 | |
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I don't think she's using the word "racist" correctly but I'd agree with her that all white people have prejudices, and often that's manifested in an ignorance of, or denial of the existence of white privilege. I totally get where she's coming from when she says she wouldn't want to associate with a white person who doesn't think they have prejudices they need to work on. But I'd just go further - I think all black people have prejudices too. Obviously those aren't as damaging considering the societal structure in the U.S., but I don't think that all black people are perfectly enlightened beings or anything. That's why I find some of the grandstanding on facebook and from Jon Stuart so cringe-worthy. Not a lot of people want to acknowledge their own prejudices but the LOVE to pronounce their enlightenment on racial attitudes and to attack others. Just like cuervo72 just did. He apparently sees gun owners as racist (at least those who own guns for home protection, which is millions and millions of people), and himself as some perfect enlightened being who's above all that. He's the kind of person that woman ranted about in the video. That's facebook this week, that's the liberal blogs and slate articles and the daily show. This is all just another opportunity to attack the "wrong" half of America (or police, or whoever else you see as beneath you). Edit: I bet that woman would get along better with JIMGA than a lot of the liberals here and all over my facebook wall who think they're perfectly racially enlightened and are in position to judge who isn't up to their level. I mean for god's sake, like Rainmaker was saying, our societal leader on race relations, the one who apparently speaks for all the comfy suburban whites is Jon Stewart. That's just hilarious. We have no credibility. Last edited by molson : 06-20-2015 at 12:05 AM. |
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06-20-2015, 12:44 AM | #156 |
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Frankly, I find the "Yesallwhitepeople" comment ignorant and dangerous. You cannot lump an entire group of people, any group, and label them. Does everyone have some sort of prejudice? I'm sure to some extent, but to say an entire group has some sort of grudge against another or, as I've shockingly read online, "blood on our hands" is just horrible.
As long as any side lumps people into these groups, there will be racial divide in this world. I guess it's simply too much to ask for people to see each other as people and nothing more. |
06-20-2015, 09:42 AM | #157 | |
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I agree, but that's why I think its important to acknowledge that all humans are inherently flawed and that in a way, blood IS on all of our hands. If it's not all of us, then we have to start deciding which groups are the ones to blame, which you eventually see play out in every single one of these threads. It's an "everybody else" problem and we just go after the groups we didn't like anyway. That does get dangerous when those groups are broad. And like you said, I think that's where the racial divides and societal tensions ultimately come from. When bad incidents are ammo to use on groups we think are undesirable. And obviously I'm not above that because I do the same thing. Some people are ultimately set off by gun owners or police officers or whatever, but I have my own triggers where I have trouble seeing things rationally. Last edited by molson : 06-20-2015 at 10:09 AM. |
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06-20-2015, 09:56 AM | #158 |
"Dutch"
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06-20-2015, 10:17 AM | #159 | |
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Surprise you make such a broad statement Molson. First off, all people have some form of prejudice, sometimes manifested, sometimes hidden, sometimes obliviously submerged deep inside, it's human nature. The problem with this line of thought is that it comes across as though all whites are ignorant, (regarding white privilege, yes it still exists to varying degrees) mistrustful and basically detached from the issues of race in society. This is not the case and greatly marginalizes the efforts of people of all races who work on a daily basis towards a better future. I am sure that was not your intent, but still. |
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06-20-2015, 10:52 AM | #160 | |
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Most of US does not care about murders with illegal guns. What makes the news is these mass shootings with legal guns. So not sure Mexico has anything to do with this particular problem. |
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06-20-2015, 11:01 AM | #161 | |
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I'm saying that I know some older people who have guns (and seem to be taking an increasing interest in them - along with food rations, home safes), and it's not for fun, it's not for hunting. It's because of fear - and I don't think it's white people they are afraid of.
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06-20-2015, 11:02 AM | #162 |
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I think it is telling that the person in the cell next to this guy is the cop who murdered a black man. To me, that says there is no way we should rely on institutions to solve this problem, there is too much self interest to be sincere.
Like Micahle Cotleon said, you can never win against a group that feels like they have nothing to lose. Unfortunately, that would include most of the murderes in this country. |
06-20-2015, 11:14 AM | #163 | ||
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Quote:
On an entirely different note, the shooter's apparent racist manifesto has been uncovered. It appears that he owned the domain name lastrhodesion DOT com. Quote:
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! Last edited by Ben E Lou : 06-20-2015 at 11:15 AM. |
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06-20-2015, 11:26 AM | #164 |
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A whole lot to digest there.
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
06-20-2015, 11:45 AM | #165 |
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The delusions of a nut job. I think I lost a few IQ points reading it.
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06-20-2015, 11:54 AM | #166 | |
"Dutch"
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Quote:
You paint with a broad brush and a lot of people are doing this...it adds nothing positive but stokes the fires a bit. I own two guns, both for home protection...and I couldn't give a rats behind who wanted to take my stuff or harm my family, white criminals aren't getting a free pass either. Never once did I consider....maybe blacks or Mexicans will come to my home. (EDIT: Well, I used to when I was in the military...not so much these days since I'm really not ever home either) Because blacks and Mexicans have been in my home many, many times. It's criminals that I am protecting against. Be careful not to hand out back-handed insults pretending to know what ALL WHITE PEOPLE think. You don't. Last edited by Dutch : 06-20-2015 at 12:29 PM. |
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06-20-2015, 11:59 AM | #167 |
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Unfortunately at the time of writing I am in a great hurry and some of my best thoughts, actually many of them have been to be left out and lost forever.
The world weeps... |
06-20-2015, 12:07 PM | #168 | ||
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Quote:
The part that makes what you and RM say ring so hollow is that you are equally as likely to dismiss people who have the same point of view as Stewart or Ta-Nehisi Coates because they are not famous/wealthy. People like you can just as easily denigrate someone for being a "social justice warrior on social media who doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem" as you can people who are famous and use their voices to address the exact same issues. Is there some perfect level of income that someone's supposed to have in order to have credibility? Quote:
We are a country of people that view Walter Scott, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, and so many others as scary threats that need to be taken down, but Dylann Roof? "Oh yeah, he was just a quiet, non-threatening guy who just happened to openly harbor white supremacist views and talk about inciting race wars." Last edited by nol : 06-20-2015 at 12:28 PM. |
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06-20-2015, 12:08 PM | #169 |
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Did a little digging. That zip file has pics from all over the Charleston area, dating back to March. Several of them indicate that they were taken with a Kodak EasyshareC C1530, and he's holding what appears to be that exact camera in a selfie posted on the site. I'm doubting this is a hoax.
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06-20-2015, 12:16 PM | #170 |
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Still no condemnation from the parents? I get they don't want their pictures pasted everywhere but you would think they would issue some sort of press release saying ... they love their son, what he did was horrible, he needs help, we pray for the victims etc.
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06-20-2015, 12:32 PM | #171 |
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A statement "from his family" came yesterday, I think. Checking now...
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
06-20-2015, 12:34 PM | #172 | |
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Here it is.
Quote:
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
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06-20-2015, 12:50 PM | #173 | |
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First off, this whole thing is just insanely terrible and made me speechless when i heard about it. Hope that i never have to experience anything like that as a friend, family member or even occupant of the same town ...
Quote:
I think it would be wrong to toss it aside like that ... This to me seems to be at least partially the case of a kid growing up with little useful information/teaching and then going out and making up his own mind with pretty disastrous consequences... But i don´t think him coming to those conclusions is dependent on him being a massive idiot or inherently evil person that was essentially predisposed to becoming a racist shooting a bunch of people in a church no matter what. He somehow came to those conclusions in a certain "climate"/environment/set of circumstances that could have led (and maybe will lead) a bunch of others down that same path. His line of thinking is not so different than millions of others now and throughout history who are otherwise functioning members of society. Seriously, if i had read this out of context (and maybe change "blacks" to "slavs") this could have just as well be something written in 17th century poland, early 20th century balcans or 1930s Germany. Or indeed mid 19th century US. I don´t think there are quick solutions and i think in todays world there is an extremely dangerous trend to dismiss long term plans because of their short term ineffectiveness. Maybe one could tackle racial issues more proactively in school, although i wouldn´t begin to know how. Because obviously, he did not get the "subtextual" teaching provided by his education as well as culture and popular media, i.e. his quoting of American History X made me nearly vomit ... (i am currently working on my oral bachelor exam which will be based on exactly this dilemma of the possibility of misunderstanding the message of films like AHX. So yeah ...)
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06-20-2015, 01:15 PM | #174 |
"Dutch"
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Romney joins call to remove Confederate flag from S.C. Capitol
This will probably add to the challenges of not turning this into this dude's goal of a "race war"...this is exactly what that kid wanted... ugh.. |
06-20-2015, 01:23 PM | #175 |
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
06-20-2015, 01:46 PM | #176 |
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The second paragraph of the manifesto suggests to me that he was inspired by the narrative of Fox/Hannity/OReily and Info wars (why are we making such a big deal about this white on black crime when black on white crime is so much worse).
I wonder, since he is making a direct link between knowing nothing, then reading this narrative and being violent, if these people hold any responsibility? |
06-20-2015, 01:55 PM | #177 |
"Dutch"
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You may have to spell this out for us. How did Fox News inspire him to kill these innocent church-goers?
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06-20-2015, 01:58 PM | #178 |
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Nine people were murdered there on Wednesday night, yet they're getting the doors open on Sunday morning, and you people want to argue about Fox News?????
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
06-20-2015, 02:32 PM | #179 |
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The more this story upsets me, the more I feel I have nothing to say. How do you get to a point, as a nation, where someone feels justified walking into a church (or any building where people are living their lives peacefully) and shooting innocent people? What is there to say?
As for the Roof family statement, I don't want to hear it. Someone like that doesn't get to age 20 and you don't know there's something seriously wrong. |
06-20-2015, 02:33 PM | #180 | ||
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Quote:
How exactly does a conservative support the removal of the Confederate flag move us closer to a race war? Hell, I'm impressed Romney came out on that side of the issue. Quote:
Is there a reason they shouldn't be open? If those folks really believe in Heaven, those nine people have just moved on from this existence to the next.
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06-20-2015, 02:38 PM | #181 |
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I'm talking in terms of logistics, mourning, clean-up, crime scene, etc. etc. etc. I'm mildly surprised that the building itself isn't still closed off by the authorities. As of around yesterday at mid-day, the vehicles of the dead were still in the parking lot.
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
06-20-2015, 02:48 PM | #182 | |
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No, that's fine. It's absolutely their right. Like my in-laws - he was in the AF and has always had guns in his house. They did have a past home broken into years ago. And they're getting older. But I wonder what the sudden ramp-up seems to be. I know there are concerns about the constant work crews that are in their gated/guarded community, that they might scope out houses for them or their buddies and sack them later. But that's really nothing new. Like I've said before, I can't see my 70-something MIL sitting with a gun in her lap while watching DWTS, at the ready in case an intruder comes in the house. As for the prepper-style rations...who knows there. Probably terrorism fears. Maybe it's for when Obama does come for their guns and there's a civil war, who knows. But on the whole it just seems like there's this increasing paranoia that "they" are out to get them/us. ETA: I guess the question is, where is this paranoia coming from *cough* Fox *cough* and what are folks stocking up for? I'm not saying they would, but I have to think there are some that while they're not looking to touch off something like this guy, might be willing to join in if something starts like they think it might.
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null Last edited by cuervo72 : 06-20-2015 at 03:00 PM. |
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06-20-2015, 02:49 PM | #183 | |
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Quote:
However, he's not alone. Some true Southern conservatives are starting to move on this issue because of the events in Charleston. I don't know if it's enough to affect change, but it does appear to be enough that things might get interesting.
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The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'! |
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06-20-2015, 03:02 PM | #184 |
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Well, if forceful removal of the confederate flag led to some kind of armed rebellion, at least it would be easy to get rid of the racist nutbags who take up arms.
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06-20-2015, 03:02 PM | #185 |
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Dola,
It's threads like this I miss Cam Edwards. |
06-20-2015, 03:03 PM | #186 |
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06-20-2015, 03:56 PM | #187 | |
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Quote:
I find his views empty because they are. What was his solution in his speech? It's as empty as when some musician passionately calls for peace. It's just slacktivism that gives people the perception they are doing something when they are not. For as passionate as Jon Stewart is on his show about race, how about he move into a black neighborhood? His tax dollars could really help and he can show the world he means what he says. I just find it odd how so many people passionate about race and equality have gone through such troubles to never have to reside around those other races. Do as I say, not as I do. As I said earlier, Stewart is a funny guy. I agree with a lot of his stuff. But he's the definition of a limousine liberal. He's the guy shaking his fist at rich guys for not paying taxes while putting his multi-million dollar homes into trusts in his pets names (he really does this!) to avoid taxes. He screams about white flight and racism but refuses to live near black people. Is it too much to ask that the people being the loudest voices for a cause also actually follow what they preach? I think the term "limousine liberal" sums up my views of Stewart. |
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06-20-2015, 03:59 PM | #188 | |
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This murder was committed with a gun that was illegally possessed and obtained. My point about Mexico is that if guns were banned in this country, they would come from another source. Just like drugs do. Guns are probably easier to smuggle anyway. |
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06-20-2015, 05:09 PM | #189 | |
"Dutch"
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Quote:
I was actually typing up a response wondering about the logistics....which lead to wondering if having it open helped or hurt the mourning process. Not being a church-goer...I ended up his leaving it alone. |
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06-20-2015, 05:16 PM | #190 | |
"Dutch"
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Another vote for Fox News is influencing. I'm curious....is biased News a reflection of society or is society a reflection of biased news? We've (FOFC) had this discussion about Hollywood, Rap music, etc, for instance, so I'm curious how this plays out. Last edited by Dutch : 06-20-2015 at 05:22 PM. |
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06-20-2015, 06:03 PM | #191 | |
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I'm curious too, which was all I was questioning. Am I wrong in reading that he did know or care about race stuff until after he heard the "black on white is far more common" narrative? And didn't he then say that inspired him to violence? All I'm asking is, if this is true, then do the authors of his inspiration carry any responsibility? Maybe this is like music, where the authors are merely entertainers and their message can have multiple meanings. But maybe it's different, maybe this narrative which inspired a hate crime could be considered hate speech. I see the other side too. If he did this to bring about the Second Coming, I'm sure we wouldn't want to blame every church that preached Revelations. |
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06-20-2015, 07:04 PM | #192 | |
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So should the FBI stop putting out interracial crime statistics? Or should nobody be allowed to quote them if it makes the black community look bad?
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06-20-2015, 07:58 PM | #193 |
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#CharlestonShooting
Most whites are killed by other whites. Most blacks are killed by other blacks. Blacks kill more whites than whites kill blacks because blacks are a minority in this country... Its simple math really.
Races kill each other because they live amongst each other. Anyone can take those stats (or stats about anything) and manipulated them to try to make their point if there is no context being used. And there is the fact that those stats could be inaccurate considering latinos and other races can identify as white and its also only reporting what is documented. So yeah, only a person/media with an agenda would put weight on those reports. Last edited by Jukeman : 06-20-2015 at 08:12 PM. |
06-20-2015, 08:23 PM | #194 |
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Interesting thread.
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06-20-2015, 09:21 PM | #195 |
"Dutch"
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Ugh... |
06-20-2015, 09:38 PM | #196 |
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Does anyone take Salon serious anymore?
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06-20-2015, 09:59 PM | #197 |
"Dutch"
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06-20-2015, 10:02 PM | #198 | |
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Quote:
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06-20-2015, 10:13 PM | #199 | |
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Yeah...I guess on one hand, I'm surprised they didn't move it elsewhere. On the flip side, there's probably no bigger chance than now to highlight what they are made of before the media moves on to something else, so...I think it's smart they decided to do it. Wonder who they'll bring in to preach. |
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06-20-2015, 11:50 PM | #200 |
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This should not be about Fox News, nor should it be about Salon, Slate, CBS, etc.
For years, the newspapers made no bones about having a side. Many cities had multiple newspapers, one for the left side of the spectrum and one for the right. My biggest issue with the media is they purport to be objective, but no outlet truly is. How often do we see a story that is merely, who, ,what, where, and when. Too often, the why of it comes into the equation, and that is the sticky part. The why of a plane crash is informative, the why of a political story leads us to many paths that are subjective and open to interpretation. Many of our popular shows on TV or radio are about interpreting the news. pTI, Sportsnations, etc., are about what the news means. Cable news is full of it, and let's not even talk about the radio. The problem is we have become lazy and rather than think critically, we allow others to do it for us. Rather than listen or think critically, we take the editorials we hear as gospel and go on down the road. Questioning information is good. The vetting process is an important part of verifying information. Unfortunately, we have ceded this responsibility to those who are providing us the info. This can have disastrous results when we act on this slanted info. |
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