Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[albionmoonlight]

Thanks for the advice. Mrs. A has great cooking instincts. I called her and told her to marinate the tofu. She cut it into small cubes and marinated it in a mixture of chicken broth, soy sauce, kim chee juice, garlic, rice vinegar, and probably a couple of other things I am forgetting.

Then, I baked the tofu while I was cooking the rice, etc. Put it in near the end. Worked perfectly.

Thanks for the tips.

[QuikSand]

Vegetarians Versus Healthy Omnivores | NutritionFacts.org

From Dr. Greger's comments:

I’ve covered findings from the EPIC studies before in Meat & Multiple Myeloma, Bowel Movement Frequency, Thousands of Vegans Studied, EPIC Study and Low Meat of No Meat?. Tomorrow I’ll cover the findings from this paper in more depth and I have a few more videos in the pipeline on it, so stay tuned! And the same diet that may prevent cancer may help treat it too, see Cancer Reversal Through Diet?. For more on plant-based nutrition, see the 101 videos I have on plant-based diets, and hundreds of other videos on more than a thousand subjects. PS: the reference in this video to teasing out the cancer and coffee connection is dealt with in Coffee and Cancer.

(sorry, links didn't port over, but are on the site linked above)

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

BYU there is actually a fair amount of debate in the medical community regarding the validity of the lipid profile at all as an indicator of, well anything. But good luck.

I went to my Cardiologist Tuesday for my every other year check up (couple of A-Fib episodes in the past) and did the stress echo. In outstanding shape cardiovascular wise and I asked him about the recommendation to take Crestor to raise HDL. I held off starting because I wanted to speak with him. After I gave him my numbers he scoffed and told me to throw the samples away. I told him I upped my Omega 3 supplements and was now eating fish 2-3 times a week. Said it was all i needed to do.

His exact quote was "You family Doctor probably wishes his profile was as good as yours. It makes no sense to start taking a pill when you really don't have a high risk from cholesterol and end up fucking up something else in your body"

This is exactly why I like him, pulls no punches. Also talked about this diet and he said the concept is good, but believes it should still include fish and some chicken.

[Kodos]

More from Quik's site:

Cancer Reversal Through Diet? | NutritionFacts.org

[DaddyTorgo]

I've been such an instant-oatmeal eater...I really need to get to "real" oatmeal.

[QuikSand]

Another interesting finding from (appears) the largest data set ever collected on human nutrition and health.

[QuikSand]

A quick addition here, since this seems to be the generic thread for such things.

I am doing well overall, eating far healthier than ever before, and have lost weight. All good.

Sodium is terribly hard to limit as much as I'm told to, though - I can't get there. 1500 mg per day just seems so trivial -- I never thought of myself as a salt person (never really craved obviously salt-laden snacks like chips, pretzels, fries, etc) but I'm finding I have a lot of trouble with the low sodium or salt free versions of a lot of mundane foods --V8 juice, peanut butter, soups, canned vegetables, and so forth.

I'm having trouble staying below 2500 mg per day, and can rarely make it through a day at the 1500 level. It's proving to be pretty tough.

[RainMaker]

Unless you have high blood pressure, there is no reason to worry about sodium intake. Far better to be eating that than excess calories. You can also sort of counteract it by eating more potassium. So have a baked potato for dinner more often.

[QuikSand]

A quick product pimping, for those who are seeking a low-calorie sweetener that's more natural or less toxic. Stevia is catching on, and is showing up in mass market stores now -- I have tried several brands, and the best (to me) by far is this stuff:

Amazon.com: Stevita Supreme - 50pkts - 1.8 oz / Packet: Health & Personal Care

It's somewhat more expensive than other brands and than other more common sweeteners -- but put that in context, I urge. 6 cents per packet instead of 1-3 cents. We're not talking about a second mortgage.

Also, a video on various sweeteners and what seems to be the thinking on them (may be a re-post, I know I have watched it before):

[sabotai]

I've been using Stevia (Truvia) for awhile now. I hated all of the artificial sweeteners I tried. But this stuff is great and it's been in Acme for awhile.

It's helped me cut down the calories of my coffee, but the biggest difference for my coffee was that I stopped using creamer and started adding cocoa powder to it. My cup of coffee with sugar and creamer went from 200-250 calories to around 20 using stevia and cocoa powder.

(It does sometimes take quite a bit of stirring to get most of the cocoa to dissolve, to the point where I am creating my own little "act of God" in my coffee cup).

[QuikSand]

Sabotai: If you are at all open to using Amazon, toss in a box of Stevita Supreme in your next order basket for three bucks and free shipping. If you don't agree it blows the doors off Truvia, I'll paypal you the three bucks with my apologies for leading you astray.

[sabotai]

Challenge accepted

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Subby

Done - and there is no comparison. Steel cut is sooooo much better than instant. And REALLY filling.

I've started running again, and if I'm really to do it right I am going to concede that I am just going to have to introduce some carbs into my diet. Nothing crazy like breads or pasta, but a banana now and then, some pretzel sticks, etc.

Bought some rolled oats at the store last night. Bought a couple mangos that were on sale, just for the heck of it. So I have oatmeal that I'm not sure how to spruce up and mangos that I don't know what to do with. DUH, put the mango in the oatmeal!

[RainMaker]

I'm going to pick up that Stevia from Amazon. I go with the Kashi cereal in the morning on occassion and usually put a little Splenda in to sweeten it up. Always willing to try out new calorie options.

[Subby]

I get the jumbo assorted raisins from Sunsweet and chop up walnuts and put those in my steel cut oatmeal. You can really substitute any dried fruit, really. I love dried cherries the most.

I used to add a bit of maple syrup for sweetness but don't really need that any more.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I've been using Stevia (Truvia) for awhile now. I hated all of the artificial sweeteners I tried. But this stuff is great and it's been in Acme for awhile.

It's helped me cut down the calories of my coffee, but the biggest difference for my coffee was that I stopped using creamer and started adding cocoa powder to it. My cup of coffee with sugar and creamer went from 200-250 calories to around 20 using stevia and cocoa powder.

(It does sometimes take quite a bit of stirring to get most of the cocoa to dissolve, to the point where I am creating my own little "act of God" in my coffee cup).

I have been trying to move in this direction... tough for me. Given the adjustment it took for me to move from heavy cream to soy creamer in my coffee, I didn't foresee having this much trouble shaking it.

[QuikSand]

And while we're here, I have another product to pimp for those interested:

Products - Field Roast

If you're interested in "meat substitutes" along the way toward pursuing this diet or something like it, this is the brand that tops the list in taste (subjective, but my view is strong here) and in health (arguably).

Their products are grain-based, rather than soy-based -- meaning in particular you get rid of the highly processed "soy protein isolate" that's one of the all-purpose food ingredients in the processed vegetarian offerings. On balance that's for the better, by most accounts. Since this is a grain-based product, it has a good deal of gluten in it -- so for some who have sensitivity there, perhaps not a good fit.

However, the taste is really good. The chorizo is spicy (too much so for some, but I like it), the Italian sausage is very satisfying, and I get a lot of mileage out of the apple sage sausage in particular (I cut up fresh apples, add the sausage, and sizzle it up with a load of sauerkraut). The frankfurters are the closest to the real thing I have had. I have yet to try their lunchmeats, but their reputation for good taste is a pretty strong endorsement from many who follow these diets.

Worth a look - for sale at Whole Foods and many natural food stores.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Subby

I get the jumbo assorted raisins from Sunsweet and chop up walnuts and put those in my steel cut oatmeal. You can really substitute any dried fruit, really. I love dried cherries the most.

I used to add a bit of maple syrup for sweetness but don't really need that any more.

We still have a package of dried cherries we got as part of a Christmas gift - I have a baggie with 1/2 cup (not yet cooked, going to have to microwave it) oatmeal and about the same in dried cherries in front of me right now.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'm a somewhat poor, irresponsible, time-pressed mid-20's person who can't make it to Whole Foods and prepare a 30-minute meal every day. So along the lines of QS's suggestion of buying the 5 gallon drums of oatmeal to replace eating (almost certainly sugar-filled) cereal with milk, what are the ways I can ease into this lifestyle?

Looking back at this question, and seeing that this thread still has a little kick left, I'll pick back up from here a bit.


Next trip to your regular old grocery store, print out this list and go buy all this stuff:

a big bag of baby spinach
a multi-pack of romaine lettuce hearts
2 heads of broccoli
a pound of fresh/bagged green beans
2 sweet potatoes
2 baking potatoes
3 bell peppers, any color
2 onions
2 avocados
2 tomatoes
a bunch of bananas
fresh strawberries
fresh blueberries (or frozen if cheaper)
4 apples
4 pears
4 oranges
one pound of hummus
half a pound of guacamole
bottle of tamari or soy sauce
jar of crushed garlic
2 bags of frozen green peas
2 bags of other frozen vegetables
2 cans of black beans
2 cans/jars of black olives
1 jar pepperoncini or other salad peppers
1 jar pickles
1 can water chestnuts
1 quart pre-made vegetable broth
bottle of balsamic vinegar
1 container of salt-free all-purpose seasoning
2 cans of garbanzo beans / chickpeas
2 cans of vegetarian/fat-free refried beans
one box of brown rice
package of 100% whole wheat soft tortillas
one bag of baked corn tortilla chips
1 pound whole wheat pasta
2 jars of fairly low fat, meat-free spaghetti sauce
one box of cheerios
one container each of almond milk and rice milk (or other non dairy)
some stevia-based sweetener, if you usually are a refined sugar user
one half-pound of high cacao dark chocolate (bar or chips)


There you go -- nothing loopy, no tofu, no kale, no parsnips, no phony-looking meat substitutes, nothing that you wouldn't be able to prepare yourself, nothing that will look foreign of horrifying, and nothing that you can't buy at nearly any grocery store.

If anyone comes home with a shopping visit that looks pretty much like this, and eats from it for the next few days... it's likely to make a difference just like that. One night's dinner is a loaded burrito, the next is pasta and veggies with sauce, the next is black bean soup poured over a baked potato -- and each dinner you include a healthy salad with a variety of toppings.

Sizzle food up in the veg broth and/or tamari, throw in a little onion and pepper, shake on some simple multi-seasoning, and you're going to love what you taste. Takes you ten minutes to whip together absolutely delicious green beans and tomatoes this way, for instance -- serve that stuff over some instant brown rice, add a simple salad, and you're done.


Just a thought dump here, for what it's worth.

[britrock88]

My cupboard is bare, and this is very tempting.

[QuikSand]

Lance Armstrong Wins Second 70.3-Mile Ironman Triathlon Race - Bloomberg

Lance Armstrong is making news as a triathlete, and made a switch to a plant-based diet part of his effort to get into the top tier of the sport recently.

[QuikSand]

Got Milk? You Don't Need It - NYTimes.com

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Got Milk? You Don't Need It - NYTimes.com

So because some guy figures out he's lactose intolerant, the rest of us should dump milk too?

[QuikSand]

Excellent and thorough summary, I guess you win the thread. Thanks for the enlightening insight.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Looking back at this question, and seeing that this thread still has a little kick left, I'll pick back up from here a bit.


Next trip to your regular old grocery store, print out this list and go buy all this stuff:

a big bag of baby spinach
a multi-pack of romaine lettuce hearts
2 heads of broccoli
a pound of fresh/bagged green beans
2 sweet potatoes
2 baking potatoes
3 bell peppers, any color
2 onions
2 avocados
2 tomatoes
a bunch of bananas
fresh strawberries
fresh blueberries (or frozen if cheaper)
4 apples
4 pears
4 oranges
one pound of hummus
half a pound of guacamole
bottle of tamari or soy sauce
jar of crushed garlic
2 bags of frozen green peas
2 bags of other frozen vegetables
2 cans of black beans
2 cans/jars of black olives
1 jar pepperoncini or other salad peppers
1 jar pickles
1 can water chestnuts
1 quart pre-made vegetable broth
bottle of balsamic vinegar
1 container of salt-free all-purpose seasoning
2 cans of garbanzo beans / chickpeas
2 cans of vegetarian/fat-free refried beans
one box of brown rice
package of 100% whole wheat soft tortillas
one bag of baked corn tortilla chips
1 pound whole wheat pasta
2 jars of fairly low fat, meat-free spaghetti sauce
one box of cheerios
one container each of almond milk and rice milk (or other non dairy)
some stevia-based sweetener, if you usually are a refined sugar user
one half-pound of high cacao dark chocolate (bar or chips)


There you go -- nothing loopy, no tofu, no kale, no parsnips, no phony-looking meat substitutes, nothing that you wouldn't be able to prepare yourself, nothing that will look foreign of horrifying, and nothing that you can't buy at nearly any grocery store.

If anyone comes home with a shopping visit that looks pretty much like this, and eats from it for the next few days... it's likely to make a difference just like that. One night's dinner is a loaded burrito, the next is pasta and veggies with sauce, the next is black bean soup poured over a baked potato -- and each dinner you include a healthy salad with a variety of toppings.

Sizzle food up in the veg broth and/or tamari, throw in a little onion and pepper, shake on some simple multi-seasoning, and you're going to love what you taste. Takes you ten minutes to whip together absolutely delicious green beans and tomatoes this way, for instance -- serve that stuff over some instant brown rice, add a simple salad, and you're done.


Just a thought dump here, for what it's worth.

No, instead go to your local grocery store and ask them for all the bacon and eggs they have.

[QuikSand]

Don't you just mean a lot of bacon and eggs?

[Danny]

No, I think you misheard me, he should ask for all the bacon and eggs they have

[cuervo72]

Heh. I love that to reference the line you quoted the WHOLE shopping list.

You don’t need milk, or large amounts of calcium, for bone integrity. In fact, the rate of fractures is highest in milk-drinking countries, and it turns out that the keys to bone strength are lifelong exercise and vitamin D, which you can get from sunshine.

I basically ditched milk as soon as I went Atkins - way too many empty carbs. (Of course, I still ate an assload of cheese. Less now.)

Started running a few months ago, and go to the orthopedist today...as I suspect I may have a stress fracture. Yeah, I know it's probably unrelated and has more to do with ramping up mileage too fast (and running a touch heavier than I should). But my knee-jerk reaction was "gah - I need to drink more milk!" It certainly is ingrained.

This in a country where as many as 50 million people are lactose intolerant, including 90 percent of all Asian-Americans and 75 percent of all African-Americans, Mexican-Americans and Jews.

What of the Euro types that adapted to milk though? (Or apparently, even some Africans)

edit: found this interesting as well: http://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_5.htm . I wonder if at some point we'll be able to blend genetics with nutrition to arrive at more detailed, personalized diets

[lungs]

From article Quicksand posted:

Then, of course, there are our 9 million dairy cows, most of whom live tortured, miserable lives while making a significant contribution to greenhouse gases.

I'd like to hit that guy with a metal pipe up side the head. Dairy isn't for everybody but for fuck's sake, don't make shit up just to pull at people's emotions and make people like me out to be monsters.

[lungs]

Another completely asinine quote:

But the bucolic cow and family farm barely exist: “Given the Kafkaesque federal milk marketing order system, it’s impossible for anyone to make a living producing and selling milk,” says Anne Mendelson, author of “Milk.” “The exceptions are the very largest dairy farms, factory operations with anything from 10,000 to 30,000 cows, which can exploit the system, and the few small farmers who can opt out of it and sell directly to an assured market, and who can afford the luxury of treating the animals decently.”

Edit: It's interesting how people that clearly have never been off pavement in their life are experts on the dairy industry.

[Kodos]

Here's a seven-minute video that shares some of the themes of Forks Over Knives. It talks about how portions have grown and obesity has exploded over the past few decades. Well worth a short investment of time.

[Marc Vaughan]

Then, of course, there are our 9 million dairy cows, all of whom would be dead if we didn't eat them or drink their milk.

Corrected that for you.

(always love the anti-meat brigade when they start on that subject - like the 9 million cows would suddenly go and live on a commune somewhere in the wild if people stopped eating them )

[molson]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Corrected that for you.

(always love the anti-meat brigade when they start on that subject - like the 9 million cows would suddenly go and live on a commune somewhere in the wild if people stopped eating them )

I don't have any particular problem with the dairy industry but I think you're missing the mark there. It's the suffering the "brigade" opposes, not the death or non-existence. Pretty much everyone is in favor of neutering and spaying cats and dogs, for example. Most would rather not have hundreds and thousands of starving, suffering, unwanted domesticated animals running around, they'd rather they just not exist in the first place. I don't think you can justify inhumane treatment of animals by saying, "well, at least they're alive, that's something!" (not that they're all treated inhumanely, but that's kind of the point you're making).

[Subby]

Originally Posted by lungs

Another completely asinine quote:

Edit: It's interesting how people that clearly have never been off pavement in their life are experts on the dairy industry.

Heh. Speaking of asinine quotes...

[Subby]

Anyway - all that really matters in all this is that you do not, under any circumstances, need to drink milk as part of a healthy diet. Despite that indisputable fact, the federal government pushes dairy milk through a combination of education and subsidies, citing it as a basic building block of human development.

If you like milk, great, keep drinking. But saying that milk is so important that you should keep drinking for health reasons - even if you are lactose intolerant - is borderline morally corrupt. Because the only reason to do that would be to improve the bottom line for this country's dairy milk producers.

[Poli]

Appreciate the discussion here. Been following it for a while. I've changed my diet some as a result. I'm not full plant based but I have been moving in that direction. It's a work in progress, but I am improving.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Subby

Heh. Speaking of asinine quotes...

Sorry. When I just went through a week of 100+ degree temperatures trying to keep my cows comfortable and I see complete bullshit written that we abuse and torture our cows... Yeah, I'm going to get a little irritated.

[Young Drachma]

This is a non-troll asshat question that I'm curious about, lungs.

So like, what do you do with dairy cows after they're no longer making milk? What kind of meat can they use them for? I guess I just always assumed (wrongly, obviously) that they'd be substandard meat since other cattle just sit around eat all day and aren't under that same kind of stress to produce milk or whatever.

[JediKooter]

I think the push for drinking milk was to get kids to get enough vitamin D, that was cheap and easy to get them to take it. Don't like milk? Well, here's chocolate milk. Ever try to get a kid to take a pill? It's almost as bad as trying to get a cat to take a pill. I don't see any conspiracy by the government and the dairy industry to take over the world. Milk, it's just an easier means to an end and tastes good too.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

This is a non-troll asshat question that I'm curious about, lungs.

So like, what do you do with dairy cows after they're no longer making milk? What kind of meat can they use them for? I guess I just always assumed (wrongly, obviously) that they'd be substandard meat since other cattle just sit around eat all day and aren't under that same kind of stress to produce milk or whatever.

I have a similar non-troll, hopefully non-asshat question. Do you breed most of your cattle? What happens when you have a male? Keep it for future breeding? Or are they just sold? Honestly curious.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by digamma

I have a similar non-troll, hopefully non-asshat question. Do you breed most of your cattle? What happens when you have a male? Keep it for future breeding? Or are they just sold? Honestly curious.

My last roommate can probably answer those questions. I know he and his family have cattle and he works in the farming/banking industry. He's obviously not a fan of FoK but I'll see if I can get an answer from him.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

This is a non-troll asshat question that I'm curious about, lungs.

So like, what do you do with dairy cows after they're no longer making milk? What kind of meat can they use them for? I guess I just always assumed (wrongly, obviously) that they'd be substandard meat since other cattle just sit around eat all day and aren't under that same kind of stress to produce milk or whatever.

Actually your assumption is pretty much correct. It's definitely not prime beef. An older cow will likely end up in fast food ground beef or things like pepperoni. A younger milk cow could end up in lower scale steaks and things like that. Basically, the older the cow is, the meat gets tough. Especially with dairy cattle, their energy is going into milk production and not packing muscle onto their frame.

Hope that helps!

[lungs]

Originally Posted by digamma

I have a similar non-troll, hopefully non-asshat question. Do you breed most of your cattle? What happens when you have a male? Keep it for future breeding? Or are they just sold? Honestly curious.

I should resurrect one of my farming threads or start a new one as I don't mean to hijack this thread..... but I'll answer this as long as it's here.

We do all our own breeding through artificial insemination. I sell male calves to local beef farmers when they are less than a month old. If I happen to get a male from my best cows there are opportunities to sell them into stud where others can use their genetics in their own herd via artificial insemination.

[Poli]

Never mind. Didn't realize lungs could answer them

[Subby]

Arian Foster of Houston Texans says he's going vegan - ESPN

Less than a month before training camps open, Houston Texans star Arian Foster says he's gone vegan.

Foster, who has 32 total touchdowns in three NFL seasons, made the announcement on Twitter last week.

"Officially a vegan now. We'll see how this goes. But week one down. So far, so good. Feels wonderful," the 6-foot-1, 229-pound running back said of giving up any form of animal products.

News of Foster's diet decision caused a social media uproar.

"People feel so strong about meat and milk. I wish they felt this strong about peace," the two-time Pro Bowler wrote shortly after his original tweet.

Since taking hold of the Texans' starting job in 2010, Foster has run for 2,840 yards on 605 carries (4.7 yards per carry) and caught 119 passes for 1,221 yards. Undrafted out of Tennessee four years ago, he signed a five-year, $43.5 million contract with Houston in March.

[sabotai]

You don’t need milk, or large amounts of calcium, for bone integrity. In fact, the rate of fractures is highest in milk-drinking countries, and it turns out that the keys to bone strength are lifelong exercise and vitamin D, which you can get from sunshine.

But I hate sunshine!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Subby

News of Foster's diet decision caused a social media uproar.

"People feel so strong about meat and milk. I wish they felt this strong about peace," the two-time Pro Bowler wrote shortly after his original tweet.

I have never really understood why people react so negatively and violenetly to concept of veganism. Vegetarianism doesn't seem to garner the same amount of vitriol, but for some reason you say you're a vegan or mention it and people tend to get all threatened or something.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I have never really understood why people react so negatively and violenetly to concept of veganism. Vegetarianism doesn't seem to garner the same amount of vitriol, but for some reason you say you're a vegan or mention it and people tend to get all threatened or something.

I think its because people are afraid they'll go all "MEAT IS MURDER" on folks. Kind of the same reason people get all freaked out that someone converted to evangelical Christianity.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I have never really understood why people react so negatively and violenetly to concept of veganism. Vegetarianism doesn't seem to garner the same amount of vitriol, but for some reason you say you're a vegan or mention it and people tend to get all threatened or something.

Reminds me of a joke: How do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you.

It's the usual (not all of them) smug attitude that you get from vegans that is way more off putting than what you get from vegetarians. I don't begrudge anyone being a vegetarian or vegan due to some health issue, but, it's the ones that act like the food gestapo or act like they are better than you, are the ones that give the rest a bad name.

[QuikSand]

90% of vegans give the rest a bad name