Game of Thrones on HBO

[Coffee Warlord]

No way you marry a high ranking noble to Bronn, of all people.

Though having Bronn be one dead Tommen away from being King would fucking rock.

[stevew]

He was going on about how he was going to find a much better lady for him, I dunno, just a thought.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I don't think Jamie would ever plan on having Bronn marry Cersei, but there are likely many potential ladies somewheres below Cersei and above Lollys Stokeworth.

[stevew]

Lemme clarify. I meant Bronn plus Myrcella

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by stevew

Lemme clarify. I meant Bronn plus Myrcella

Yeah, no. That would never happen. For one Cersei would literally kill Jaime with her bare hands. Bronn is too lowborn to marry a Princess.

[Logan]

The Dany storyline just kills all momentum for me.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Logan

The Dany storyline just kills all momentum for me.

Hey, they're being true to the book there.

[Solecismic]

While the Dany storyline is a bit tedious at this point, it is one of the more interesting ones in the series. Yesterday's explanation of her father Aerys shows the end of her path. And someday, they might deal with the fact that she and Joffrey share the trait of having just one set of natural grandparents.

So we've seen Dany in a sympathetic light so far. Forced into exile, abused by her brother, on this mission to right a wrong that puts her essentially on the same side as the one positive, peaceful family scene Game of Thrones has ever given us (the Starks, for about 10 minutes). She's tough. She perseveres. She wants fairness and justice.

But maybe we're seeing her descent into insanity, as well. If the story ever takes her back to Westeros, will she and her dragons make Joffrey look kind by comparison?

What makes this interesting is that she (and maybe Jon) are easily the most beloved characters we have so far.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

And someday, they might deal with the fact that she and Joffrey share the trait of having just one set of natural grandparents.

But this has been a Targaryen hallmark for 200+ years. Insanity wasn't the default position of Targaryen Kings.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But this has been a Targaryen hallmark for 200+ years. Insanity wasn't the default position of Targaryen Kings.

Well.. It kinda has been. Default? No. But it's definitely been a trait of Targaryens, kings or otherwise, over that 200+ year span.

As Barristan Selmy explained to Dany:

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

I think it's pretty clear that Dany is supposed to be on the "greatness" side of the coin.

All I know is that names have power. My nine-year old dog is named Aegon. He is essentially both sides of that coin.

Tip of the Day: I would be wary naming any dog after a Targaryen.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well.. It kinda has been. Default? No. But it's definitely been a trait of Targaryens, kings or otherwise, over that 200+ year span.

As Barristan Selmy explained to Dany:

"I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land."

I think it's pretty clear that Dany is supposed to be on the "greatness" side of the coin.

It appears to me that Selmy was overstating it. I mean especially after things like the World of Ice and Fire have come out. You'll find few Kings were indeed mad, but most were sane. Though sanity didn't mean they weren't cruel (like Maegor I) or believed that holiness was more important than ruling (Baelor the Blessed).

I mean even Viserys (Dany's brother) was cruel and had a stunningly large ego, but not insane.

[ISiddiqui]

The Wiki of Ice and Fire also takes a gander at this notion of Targaryen madness. I've quoted the relevant portions, IMO:

Targaryen madness - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

According to some beliefs, House Targaryen carries the trait for insanity in its bloodline, often referred to as madness. That is a very speculative notion, as many "bad" Targaryen kings can simply be seen as have been incompetent, pampered or feeble-minded - as kings and princes often are.

It must be observed that of the Targaryen kings who ruled Westeros for almost 300 years, only Aerys could be considered truly mad. Several princes and bastards of Targaryen blood comitted insane acts for one reason or another, and oftentimes it was not "pure madness" but acts born of desperation or arrogance that lead to further tragedies as the tragedy at Summerhall. There is magical power in the blood of old Valyria and this may create a certain instability in a Targaryen's personality, but it could also be that this is due to the fact that the Targaryens have forgotten how to control it when magic waned from the world and dragons disappeared.

[Groundhog]

Where we are at now in the TV shows pretty much marks the start of the low point of the books for me, Arya and Dany in particular. I've definitely enjoyed the first two episodes of the season though. My memory is a little foggy as to exactly what happens as it's been a few years since I read the books, but it seems to me they've made a few significant changes that will make for a better show.

[stevew]

Whats up with this show?

Essos flat out sucks.

[Chief Rum]

Lol... what is Essos? I missed that.

From the "breaking away from GRRM" perspective, this was an extremely interesting (and kinda devastating) episode.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Lol... what is Essos? I missed that.

From the "breaking away from GRRM" perspective, this was an extremely interesting (and kinda devastating) episode.

Essos is to east as Westeros is to west.

[ISiddiqui]

Damn the show indeed!

Spoiler

So... Barristan is dead, but in the books he's still alive as of sample chapters in Winds of Winter - in fact he's basically the Regent of Meereen (He's officially "Hand of the Queen") as Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon. Maybe this means that when Drogon kills the fighting pits folk, she doesn't go out in the Dothraki Sea to collect a new Khal? Or perhaps Jorah, instead of perhaps dying of the flux outside of the walls of Meereen, wins his way into Dany's graces and takes Barristan's role in the books?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Damn the show indeed!

Spoiler

So... Barristan is dead, but in the books he's still alive as of sample chapters in Winds of Winter - in fact he's basically the Regent of Meereen (He's officially "Hand of the Queen") as Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon. Maybe this means that when Drogon kills the fighting pits folk, she doesn't go out in the Dothraki Sea to collect a new Khal? Or perhaps Jorah, instead of perhaps dying of the flux outside of the walls of Meereen, wins his way into Dany's graces and takes Barristan's role in the books?

Spoiler

Or maybe it's Tyrion?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Damn the show indeed!

Spoiler

So... Barristan is dead, but in the books he's still alive as of sample chapters in Winds of Winter - in fact he's basically the Regent of Meereen (He's officially "Hand of the Queen") as Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon. Maybe this means that when Drogon kills the fighting pits folk, she doesn't go out in the Dothraki Sea to collect a new Khal? Or perhaps Jorah, instead of perhaps dying of the flux outside of the walls of Meereen, wins his way into Dany's graces and takes Barristan's role in the books?

Spoiler

Is he dead? He took some bad shots, but he got saved from his throat being cut, so maybe he's just Really Beat Up.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Spoiler

Is he dead? He took some bad shots, but he got saved from his throat being cut, so maybe he's just Really Beat Up.

Spoiler

It's basically been confirmed from interviews with the actor and whatnot.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Spoiler

Or maybe it's Tyrion?

Spoiler

But Jorah would be a better option for leading the Unsullied during the Second Battle of Meereen - which, btw, is far less badass now without Victarion's fleet joining in on the sea

[Coffee Warlord]

And the preview for episode 5 is up. Tyrion gets to see himself a dragon!

[Arles]

Last night's episode just flew by. When the credits popped, I could have swore it was only 20 min or so. I'm really enjoying this season so far.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The thing that surprises me is just how much they seem intent on diverting from the story. It makes me wonder if HBO and GRRM basically came to an agreement that HBO was going to go one way with the story and GRRM would continue his way, with GRRM still contributing to HBO's storyline.

This was my comment in the lead up to this season. Further thoughts on that tack I will spoiler for book reasons...

Spoiler

I find myself wondering again how close the showrunners and GRRM come with their versions of the end of this.

If, as my comment above suggests, the showrunners kinda pave their own way and tell their own story, then the question becomes do they change the ending, too?

I have always thought that the showrunners would tell their own story but swing back around to the same/similar ending as GRRM.

The reason this is important is because, whoever the showrunners kill off that GRRM hasn't yet killed off himself aren't important to the ending. In other words, the showrunners' choices on stories and deaths could tell us what the red herrings are that GRRM has in place.

For instance, clearly the Iron Islands story line has no bearing on the ending. Ser Barristan in the long run doesn't matter and is easily replaceable by Ser Jorah, who will already know isn't important because GRRM has already killed him off. Mance Rayder apparently isn't important enough to keep around (and perhaps his future role is taken by Tormund, or rendered unnecessary with the fact that Sasha herself is at Winterfell now in the show). The storyline involving Rhaegar's kid (forget his name) doesn't matter.

If, however, the showrunners and GRRM are wholesale telling different stories now, then their choices have no impact on the books direction. Ser Barristan and Mance and the young princeling and the Iron Folk could still be critical to the story. And you can turn it around then, too--maybe Jorah lives on and becomes an integral part of the showrunners' story?

Anyway, food for thought.

[ISiddiqui]

Though, as I may have pointed out (I may not have - maybe put it on another forum), the ending may be the same and certain people may or may not be significant to the ending, but the journey is the interesting part for me. You can write 15 different ways to get to 1 end - the trick is making me care for your way. GRRM has; the show is starting to lose me on some of it.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Spoilering this because although it deals with mere speculation, you should probably be able to avoid seeing it if you want to:

Spoiler

My roommates came home after watching the episode last night, neither of whom has read past book 4, and said "well, they essentially spelled out that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's kid." While I don't especially agree with that statement, what better way could HBO diverge than to go with the most widely accepted fan theory?

[ISiddiqui]

Spoiler

diverge? I'm like 99.9% convinced that R+L=J is true.

[Barkeep49]

Spoiler

Ever since I read enough to read R+L=J I've thought it true. The show hints it even more. And since Jon Snow's parentage is what got Benioff and Weiss hired for the show it seems that if GRRM changes that then he's doing it to f with the show. Counter theory is that Benioff and Weiss are having fun knowing that's such a popular theory before going in whatever the "correct" direction is. I think that the ending we get on the TV show will be whatever GRRM's plans were. However, if GRRM does finish the books, which I think less likely with every passing day, I could definitely see him changing it out of pique.

Also I thought we were discussing book related spoilers on the TV show in the book thread and this was about the TV show as a TV show. Wasn't that what we came to last season?

[Kodos]

Yes.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Damn the show indeed!

Spoiler

So... Barristan is dead, but in the books he's still alive as of sample chapters in Winds of Winter - in fact he's basically the Regent of Meereen (He's officially "Hand of the Queen") as Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon. Maybe this means that when Drogon kills the fighting pits folk, she doesn't go out in the Dothraki Sea to collect a new Khal? Or perhaps Jorah, instead of perhaps dying of the flux outside of the walls of Meereen, wins his way into Dany's graces and takes Barristan's role in the books?

Good action, enjoyed it.

[Arles]

I'm glad I haven't read the books before seeing the show. I think I will enjoy reading the books from volume 1 once GRRM completes the series and the show is done. At that point, I will be able to appreciate the show and the books independently.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'm glad I haven't read the books before seeing the show. I think I will enjoy reading the books from volume 1 once GRRM completes the series and the show is done. At that point, I will be able to appreciate the show and the books independently.

The question is...will you still be able to read by then?

[Arles]

Might need some pretty high powered glasses in my elderly years. Maybe I should have said "listen to the audiobook".

[jeff061]

So these spoilers, are they show spoilers or book spoilers.

[ISiddiqui]

Book, mostly, I think.

[Chief Rum]

I spoilered for book. Don't know about anyone else. I always assumed anyone in this thread has either seen the show or doesn't care about being spoilered with the show.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by jeff061

So these spoilers, are they show spoilers or book spoilers.

Mine straddled both, but it's not a spoiler per se, it just discusses fan speculation. I figure best to err on the side of caution.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by jeff061

So these spoilers, are they show spoilers or book spoilers.

Spoiler

I'm not sure. I haven't been reading them.

[stevew]

If Ser Barristan is actually dead, and I read an EW article basically confirming that, it's going to suck. He was one of my favorite characters.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, article and the preview for next week confirms it. Sad.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

If Ser Barristan is actually dead, and I read an EW article basically confirming that, it's going to suck. He was one of my favorite characters.

Honestly, this is the type of stuff I think should be spoilered. My takeaway from that scene was that all red shirt Unsullied were surely dead but that both Grey Worm and Barristan might have survived. Why close with Grey Worm preventing Barristan's throat from being slit if he's dead anyway?

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Honestly, this is the type of stuff I think should be spoilered. My takeaway from that scene was that all red shirt Unsullied were surely dead but that both Grey Worm and Barristan might have survived. Why close with Grey Worm preventing Barristan's throat from being slit if he's dead anyway?

The "Next week" preview after the credits kind of gave it away.

[stevew]

I'm sorry, wasn't thinking.

should have just ended with his throat getting slashed.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm sorry, wasn't thinking.

should have just ended with his throat getting slashed.

No worries, it's not a big deal. I do wonder why you bother having Grey Worm have a hero moment at the end if he didn't achieve anything - especially if he dies too.

Bronco - GoT's always existed in a weird place because most people have known what's going to happen, but I know plenty of people who avoid watching next week previews. GoT hasn't been bad, but I know Walking Dead in particular spoiled multiple character returns during their "coming next week" or "previously on" segments.

[stevew]

Worst one ever was when they showed a mid show promo for next week's Breaking Bad when a particular character was shown messed up in a hospital while the events that placed him there had yet to occur

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Honestly, this is the type of stuff I think should be spoilered. My takeaway from that scene was that all red shirt Unsullied were surely dead but that both Grey Worm and Barristan might have survived. Why close with Grey Worm preventing Barristan's throat from being slit if he's dead anyway?

The unsullied need to upgrade to carrying swords and clubs around the city. A giant spear seems like a terrible close quarters weapon. It's like an easy way to get them all conveniently killed.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, in general I thought the TV handling of the Unsullied was a pretty big letdown. They've been built up over season after season as this unstoppable, unflappable army of eunuchs trained in battle for their entire lives....who were quickly fucked up by some rich dudes wearing togas and party hats, in relatively even numbers.

I dunno how they could have presented it better (just greatly increase the opposition numbers?), but that single episode pretty much undid all the previous hype they'd built up around the army of the unsullied.

[stevew]

I rewatched it and that one hooker obviously set them up to go get killed, right.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think the problem is they haven't delineated the difference between prowess on the battlefield versus being city guards. Pointing out that their spears suck in close quarters is a good observation, but not really a logical leap for everyone watching. They probably could have handled that better.

[stevew]

I don't know the story but is the guy behind the uprising the guy who Dany is bedding?