Yet another school shooting.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by AlexB

18th school shooting this year apparently. In 55 calendar days. With holidays and weekends, that’s basically one every other day.

For context (like it's really needed), that's the same number which has taken place in the rest of the world combined. Over the past 20 years.

[PilotMan]

Why do I feel like the response from Congress to all this is going to be more guns everywhere?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by digamma

I am not sure if you're stating this correctly. The Castle doctrine has always allowed you to defend yourself in your home. Stand Your Ground extends the Castle Doctrine to any place and eliminates a duty to retreat. In non-Stand Your Ground states, you have a duty to retreat if there is a safe way to escape a threat. In Stand Your Ground States, there is no duty to retreat if you subjectively perceive a threat. What we see in Stand Your Ground states is an increase in gun deaths, no deterrence on crime and a disproportionate impact on communities of color (in terms of increased gun deaths).

You are right. I stand corrected here.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Early this week they installed intruder door bars in my school. Was not at all taken lightly- strange, awful and scary times...

My wife teaches at a middle school. You are supposed to be buzzed in (which is better than nothing and would only delay a determine attacker) and they are supposed to lock classroom doors and the kids inside if there is an incident.

She was told to not let anyone in, including kids left outside if there was a shooter in the halls. Obviously a horrible dilemma, a calculated risk and TBH, I'm not sure what I would do in that situation if there was a shooter in the hallway and kids banging to get in.

[Logan]

Kimmel Writer Calls Out GOP In Blistering Replies To 'Prayers' After Florida Shooting | HuffPost

$4,418,012.00
Four million four hundred eighteen thousand and twelve dollars from the NRA. https://t.co/kPZQIPTg42

— Bess Kalb (@bessbell) February 14, 2018

Just one example.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

How about start by raising our children right? You know, in a 2 parent home.

Maybe teach them the difference between right and wrong?

Teach them there are consequences, both positive and negative.

I would love to see data on gun deaths caused by people that were taught these things compared to those that werent.

It all starts at home.

A) He was adopted into and raised in a 2 parent home up until his father dies of a heart attack "many years ago" and his mother died in November 2017 of pneumonia

B) Can it be argued that he was taught the difference between right and wrong and this is the result? What if what's right means doing what he did yesterday because he felt threatened and felt the need to defend himself from a threat? I am not defending his actions. I don't know if that is the case or not. It is a possibility, right?

C) I don't know what the lessons of consequences would do for Nikolas Cruz at the point he was at yesterday. I am curious about the positive and negative consequences of his victims, their families and the society at large.

I am interested in exploring some of the other elements of these senseless shootings outside of guns. Unfortunately, I think most of those will be consumed by the same constraints that consume the guns debate

[Kodos]

Here's a quick video on how Japan handles the gun problem. Seems a whole lot better than ours.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by tarcone

How about start by raising our children right? You know, in a 2 parent home.

Maybe teach them the difference between right and wrong?

Teach them there are consequences, both positive and negative.

I would love to see data on gun deaths caused by people that were taught these things compared to those that werent.

It all starts at home.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

A) He was adopted into and raised in a 2 parent home up until his father dies of a heart attack "many years ago" and his mother died in November 2017 of pneumonia

B) Can it be argued that he was taught the difference between right and wrong and this is the result? What if what's right means doing what he did yesterday because he felt threatened and felt the need to defend himself from a threat? I am not defending his actions. I don't know if that is the case or not. It is a possibility, right?

C) I don't know what the lessons of consequences would do for Nikolas Cruz at the point he was at yesterday. I am curious about the positive and negative consequences of his victims, their families and the society at large.

I am interested in exploring some of the other elements of these senseless shootings outside of guns. Unfortunately, I think most of those will be consumed by the same constraints that consume the guns debate

Miami Fan is spot on, I didn't grow up in a two parent home and was in to bad shit as a teenager, but sports got me straightened out and gave me a greater purpose. In my subsequent years coaching I have known kids that fit your stereotype that went down bad paths and kids that didn't do the same thing. Hell, if you have me on FB you saw I went to a funeral of one of the latter last month. One parent homes in a bad socio-economic setting may be at greater risk for overall violence, but I have seen no correlation to mass shootings that says they are a greater risk.

And the big thing I see now is so many kids have just become numb to consequences as the acts they see on TV have become more frequent and perpetrators take on almost a celebrity status. You can teach right/wrong/consequences all you want, but you are competing with outside forces that don't reinforce them and in some cases glorify them. We had the same issues to a degree when I was a kid, but chose fists as the weapon of choice and not an assault rifle.

Society as a whole needs to take more accountability and keep talking about it. I support the second amendment, but there are so many holes in the laws governing gun rights it isn't even funny and they need to be addressed, along with a serious look at how America handles those with mental health issues that may be at risk for committing these types of atrocities.

You just can't put all of this on parents, while the government continues to tweet thoughts and prayers and do absolutely nothing.

[Johnny93g]

There are lots of sick, disturbed, angry, lost, and bad people in the world. Lots. This stuff just doesn't happen at the pace USA is experiencing it.

I'm not here to shit on the country, or anything like that. America is obviously doing it wrong, and it makes me sad.

The view from the outside is money matters way more then blood. The thoughts and prayers are meaningless.

How long until the next one? Two days, a week....It's inevitable at this point, right....What a sad thought...

[Drake]

Heard a great quote the other day that said (summarizing): The system you've got in place is perfectly designed to achieve the results you're getting.

Maybe one mass shooting is an aberration, but at this point, I think we have to conclude that the system the U.S. has in place (across the spectrum: education, mental health, quality of life expectations, notions of freedom and rights, etc.) is perfectly designed to produce mass shootings.

I think it's fair to say that we don't really want mass shootings...but it's also fair to say that we want not to have to change more than we want to end mass shootings.

[panerd]

Can we all agree that something also has to change with the media coverage? “Third highest ever” “let’s learn more about the asshole who just gunned down 17 people...” “here’s how he did it” These nut jobs almost always end up idolizing previous shooters and want to refine and top their body count. There has to be a better way to cover this doesn’t there?

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by tarcone

How about start by raising our children right? You know, in a 2 parent home.

Maybe teach them the difference between right and wrong?

Teach them there are consequences, both positive and negative.

I would love to see data on gun deaths caused by people that were taught these things compared to those that werent.

It all starts at home.

Our parenting and society is no better than yours. Our kids don't shot each other because they can't get hold of guns.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Our parenting and society is no better than yours. Our kids don't shot each other because they can't get hold of guns.

Agree with you on some of the cases but this one (and columbine and countless others) seem to be clear neglect on the part of the family that was housing him. “Oh you are mentally unstable just make sure to lock your AR-15 up in the gun safe”

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by panerd

Agree with you on some of the cases but this one (and columbine and countless others) seem to be clear neglect on the part of the family that was housing him. “Oh you are mentally unstable just make sure to lock your AR-15 up in the gun safe”

I think right there is the disconnect us non americans are seeing. We don't have an AR-15 to lock up in the gun safe...

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

I think right there is the disconnect us non americans are seeing. We don't have an AR-15 to lock up in the gun safe...

Had to do a quick lookup, not trying to draw any conclusions right now.

Surprisingly, Canadian gun ownership is actually higher than I would have thought.

2. Firearms Ownership in Canada - Firearms, Accidental Deaths, Suicides and Violent Crime: An Updated Review of the Literature with Special Reference to the Canadian Situation

In the previous literature review, the author indicated that about 25 percent of Canadian households own some sort of firearm (Gabor, 1994: 9). A recent Department of Justice Canada report indicated that, based on the combined findings of several studies, 26 percent may be the most reliable figure (See Block, 1998:3). In total, it is estimated that about 3 million civilians in Canada own firearms.
:
:
Overall, surveys suggest that more people in rural areas own firearms than in urban locations. For example, 37.3 percent of respondents from small towns own a firearm compared to 2.8 percent in communities with populations over one million. Residents of small towns are also more likely to own long guns than people living in large cities: 33.6 percent compared to 1.2 percent respectively (Block, 1998: 24).

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Had to do a quick lookup, not trying to draw any conclusions right now.

Surprisingly, Canadian gun ownership is actually higher than I would have thought.

2. Firearms Ownership in Canada - Firearms, Accidental Deaths, Suicides and Violent Crime: An Updated Review of the Literature with Special Reference to the Canadian Situation

My extended family owns lots of guns. They hunt alot as the live up north. I've seen them many times, visits, and all that. I've never seen a gun in my life....

I'm not trying to draw any conclusions either, but it's just not a regular part of life here. It's not on my mind. It's not even an afterthought.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by panerd

Agree with you on some of the cases but this one (and columbine and countless others) seem to be clear neglect on the part of the family that was housing him. “Oh you are mentally unstable just make sure to lock your AR-15 up in the gun safe”

A lot of you guys really don't get it do you. If you don't have guns nobody will be shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Hammer

A lot of you guys really don't get it do you. If you don't have guns nobody will be shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp.

I get it, in fact you are replying to a guy that doesn’t think we need all the guns we have. I’m also saying that if the kid is a nut job and you tell him “make sure to lock up your gun in the safe” then you are part of the problem. Guns and shitty parenting (or in this case shitty guardianship) don’t have to be mutually exclusive do they? Columbine they were out blowing shit up in the backyard. Those parents should have been doing some jail time or paying some fine at least. Maybe it cuts back on one shooting, wouldn’t that be a good thing?

[BBT]

Is parenting that much of an issue in this situation...he was 19 and, under the law, was allowed to own the weapon that he used. Did we talk about the Las Vegas shooter's parenting situation and how he grew up?

If he was mentally unstable, Trump removed the checks on mental stability when buying a gun last year.

We also let folks buy guns at 18...but they can't drink until they are 21.

Recently, there was a rash of eating Tide Pod memes going around...the government stepped in immediately to force Tide to change their product to look less appetizing. We all take our shoes off at the airport because one idiot tried to hide a bomb in his. Yet, nothing continues to get done about guns other than easing restrictions.

In regards to studying shooters, Trump cancelled all funding and projects by the CDC to do exactly that. Means we have to rely on the media, who have limited info to these crimes once the FBI steps in.

I'm all for folks having guns, but there have to be more checks than there are now.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BBT

Is parenting that much of an issue in this situation...he was 19 and, under the law, was allowed to own the weapon that he used. Did we talk about the Las Vegas shooter's parenting situation and how he grew up?
:
:
I'm all for folks having guns, but there have to be more checks than there are now.

I'm all for more checks and balances. I don't parents should be necessarily blamed either. I'm a parent and know its tough to assess/judge with an impartial POV. However, there should be some accountability.

Don't think the full story is out yet on this case so will wait until we know more.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Can we all agree that something also has to change with the media coverage? “Third highest ever” “let’s learn more about the asshole who just gunned down 17 people...” “here’s how he did it” These nut jobs almost always end up idolizing previous shooters and want to refine and top their body count. There has to be a better way to cover this doesn’t there?

This actually leads to an interesting question. I am probably as reluctant to restrict the first amendment anymore that we currently do as gun rights activists are of to restricting the second amendment. Am I willing to give up the good information that comes from the current media coverage in order to reduce the glorification of the event? It is easy for me to say yes today. I am not sure what my reaction would be when present with the actual restrictions tomorrow. I would hope that learning more about the asshole will lead someone, some group to do something that might prevent the next massacre and help the troubled persons who may do it. I also know that a restriction here will lead to attempts to more restrictions further down the line to censorship. Am I willing allow the first restriction?

If you ask me if I am willing to sacrifice all the AR-15's in the country to prevent another massacre, the answer is a resounding yes. BTW, I don't own an AR-15, have no desire to own one and getting no joy from shooting one. I lost nothing from not having an AR-15 specifically The more important question for me is what is my "AR-15"and I am willing to sacrifice it, in order to prevent these tragedies from happening? I don't have a quick answer to that one. I don't think I am the only one without an answer.

[Hammer]

I hear what you are saying Panerd and I don't think you are wrong. We have absolutely the same things going on as you do in regards to shitty parenting. It produces the same disturbed and unhinged kids as in the U.S. I don't think that will change in a hurry.

The difference is your kids can get hold of guns. Our kids can't. Your kids shoot people our kids don't. They might stab someone worse case scenario but we can't ban kitchen knives. 1 or 2 people might get killed by a fruit loop before they get over powered. Better than 17.

It comes down to a question, is it more important to have guns in society for whatever reason you want them or is it more important to stop all the needless killing? It seems quite a lot of folks are brainwashed right now. They have their blinkers on and just accept things as they are. A lot of folks are entitled, think they are above all this. Just get rid of all the guns it all goes away.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Hammer

It comes down to a question, is it more important to have guns in society for whatever reason you want them or is it more important to stop all the needless killing? It seems quite a lot of folks are brainwashed right now. They have their blinkers on and just accept things as they are. A lot of folks are entitled, think they are above all this. Just get rid of the all the guns it all goes away.

Are there exceptions to getting rid of all the guns by law abiding citizens?

No hunting rifles, no guns for people living in rural areas, ranchers getting rid of varmints or home protection etc.?

I am for more gun control (and don't claim to have all the answers) but getting rid of "all guns" for law abiding citizens just seems going too far.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Drake

I think it's fair to say that we don't really want mass shootings...but it's also fair to say that we want not to have to change more than we want to end mass shootings.

The entire alt-right movement is based on not wanting to change. In fact, they want to roll back society to the pre-Civil Rights era.

It doesn't just work that way. You can't snap your fingers and force a society back 50 years to a time when abortions were banned and open racism was expected in many corners of society.

The apathy around our entire society is based around not wanting to change. Who really wants to get up and go to a rally when posting on Facebook or a message board gives you immediate and visceral feedback?

It's going to take people actually getting angry enough to physically do things to "take back America" for the people instead of the motivated minorities (and by this I mean racists and those who are happy with the current state of mass shootings).

[PilotMan]

Imagine how much we'd be hearing about a need for a change in the law if the murderer had been Muslim or an immigrant. Would politicians say, "this is no time to politicize this tragedy, first we must morn. "

No they wouldn't.

[Shkspr]

Local story I found interesting, not getting any national exposure because of the Parkland murders, and technically involving the shooting of a student:

Yesterday morning, an armed gunman took over 100 people hostage at a homeless shelter/community center here in town. An unarmed student along with shelter security confronted the gunman and managed to disarm him.

Then the police arrived on the scene and shot the student who'd disarmed the gunman. Luckily, no fatalities, but my wife works at the hospital they took the victim, so she was torn last night between really wanting to talk about it, and not being allowed to say anything.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Imagine how much we'd be hearing about a need for a change in the law if the murderer had been Muslim or an immigrant. Would politicians say, "this is no time to politicize this tragedy, first we must morn. "

No they wouldn't.

I imagine we'd also hear about the need for change if one of the NRA-funded politicians was among those burying their kid.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Local story I found interesting, not getting any national exposure because of the Parkland murders, and technically involving the shooting of a student:

Yesterday morning, an armed gunman took over 100 people hostage at a homeless shelter/community center here in town. An unarmed student along with shelter security confronted the gunman and managed to disarm him.

Then the police arrived on the scene and shot the student who'd disarmed the gunman. Luckily, no fatalities, but my wife works at the hospital they took the victim, so she was torn last night between really wanting to talk about it, and not being allowed to say anything.

That's messed up.

[Ben E Lou]

BREAKING: Leader of white nationalist group has confirmed suspect in Florida school shooting was member of his organization.

— The Associated Press (@AP) February 15, 2018

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Hammer

I hear what you are saying Panerd and I don't think you are wrong. We have absolutely the same things going on as you do in regards to shitty parenting. It produces the same disturbed and unhinged kids as in the U.S. I don't think that will change in a hurry.

The difference is your kids can get hold of guns. Our kids can't. Your kids shoot people our kids don't. They might stab someone worse case scenario but we can't ban kitchen knives. 1 or 2 people might get killed by a fruit loop before they get over powered. Better than 17.

It comes down to a question, is it more important to have guns in society for whatever reason you want them or is it more important to stop all the needless killing? It seems quite a lot of folks are brainwashed right now. They have their blinkers on and just accept things as they are. A lot of folks are entitled, think they are above all this. Just get rid of all the guns it all goes away.

I think the challenge that many non Americans can't appreciate is one of volume. Now full disclosure, I am an avid gun advocate and collector. I strongly support the Second Amendment, while also recognizing the need for REASONABLE restrictions (we all get lost in the "what is reasonable" wash imho) ...

But for a moment in time lets just assume that we instantly banned all guns and decided to allow forcible confiscation (civil war here we come, but lets pretend) Estimates on number of firearms in the US range from 350,000,000 to over 500,000,000. For a nice comparison there are an estimated 325,000,000 ACTIVE working cell phones in the US.(100,000,000 cell phones in Germany) think about all the old cell phones you have in a drawer somewhere. Now imagine what it would take to find and confiscate all those cell phones.

Its a physical impossibility. There are an estimated 750,000 law enforcement officers in the US. If every cop in America found and confiscated 1 gun per day, it would take 2 years with no other enforcement activity.

Its just an insurmountable option at this point in time. And that is before you even get to the point of what reasonable control is.

It is my belief that many want an easy answer. One that doesnt exist. This isnt a problem someone else can solve, in my opinion.


Look at yesterday - It was already illegal to murder someone. It was already illegal to possess a gun on school grounds. What is the magic bullet law that he says,'Well I will brake 25 laws today, but that one...oh that one I wont break'

And I cant explain to someone that doesnt value firearm ownership, why I feel the way I do. I just am not a good enough arguer I suppose to convince anyone. I can merely tell you how strongly I value it and hope it impresses upon you the opposition faced.

I would sooner remove the right to free speech than the right to bear arms.
I would sooner lose the right to freedom of religion than the right to bear arms.
I would sooner lose my home and all my worldly possessions before I lost my firearms and the rights to have them.
I acquaint it to the trite marketing slogan "God made man; Samuel Colt made them equal". Like it or not might makes right in the world. Might comes in many ways - political power, physical power, financial power etc. But in a SHTF scenario without the right to physically defend yourself you are nothing more than a sitting target. I rest easy knowing that if the day comes I will die fighting not live conquered.

From my position we must do something to curb violence, we must and we will. But removing firearms isnt a tenable position for me to even discuss.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I wonder if this will be substantiated in any way or if this is ISIS claiming responsibility for Hurricanes killing Americans.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Then the police arrived on the scene and shot the student who'd disarmed the gunman. Luckily, no fatalities, but my wife works at the hospital they took the victim, so she was torn last night between really wanting to talk about it, and not being allowed to say anything.

I'd be interested in seeing who picks up the medical bills for this shooting. The cynical part of me says it'll be on the student/his parents.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Are there exceptions to getting rid of all the guns by law abiding citizens?

No hunting rifles, no guns for people living in rural areas, ranchers getting rid of varmints or home protection etc.?

I am for more gun control (and don't claim to have all the answers) but getting rid of "all guns" for law abiding citizens just seems going too far.

It really depends how much the #### number of people getting shot every year bothers you.

I don't mean to come across as a know it all or anti U.S. You guys do a lot of things better than us and we can learn from you. But you are really struggling with this one as it is so ingrained in your culture.

You take the guns away from law abiding citizens. Damn right. You take away the hunting rifles. It won't cause anyone to starve to death.

To an American it might sound extreme. To me it is common sense and normal. Just the way it is. If there are no guns nobody gets shot.

Police don't carry guns in my country. They don't need to. We have armed response units who sit around drinking tea and playing pool until there is a terror threat every year or so. Not a response needed to the general criminals very often. Our criminals are probably as bad as yours but as there are no guns it isn't such a problem..

[Mike Lowe]

We're ok with a country having weapons, just not big powerful ones like a nuke that can do a lot of damage...


We're ok with an American having a handgun, just not big powerful guns like an AR-15 that can do a lot of damage...


Oh wait, some people still don't care about that second paragraph I guess...

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I would sooner remove the right to free speech than the right to bear arms.
I would sooner lose the right to freedom of religion than the right to bear arms.
I would sooner lose my home and all my worldly possessions before I lost my firearms and the rights to have them.
I acquaint it to the trite marketing slogan "God made man; Samuel Colt made them equal". Like it or not might makes right in the world. Might comes in many ways - political power, physical power, financial power etc. But in a SHTF scenario without the right to physically defend yourself you are nothing more than a sitting target. I rest easy knowing that if the day comes I will die fighting not live conquered.

So instead, you will condemn more children to die helplessly at the hands of a fellow gun owner.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So instead, you will condemn more children to die helplessly at the hands of a fellow gun owner.

No. I dont condemn anyone.

My idea of a "solution" would be seen as too barbaric and most definitely outlawed by the Eighth Amendment.

But again you dont want discussion, you just want to lob accusation at me. I get it. I like guns so I'm the enemy.

It's not a black and white issue. We live and die by the shades of grey.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Hammer

You take the guns away from law abiding citizens. Damn right. You take away the hunting rifles. It won't cause anyone to starve to death.

To an American it might sound extreme. To me it is common sense and normal. Just the way it is. If there are no guns nobody gets shot.

How do you protect yourself, your property, your family and your pets from wildlife? Real question. I've lost livestock this month to coyotes. I've killed 20+ coyotes since January 1.

How do rural Germans protect themselves, or should everyone move into a city.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

We're ok with a country having weapons, just not big powerful ones like a nuke that can do a lot of damage...


We're ok with an American having a handgun, just not big powerful guns like an AR-15 that can do a lot of damage...


Oh wait, some people still don't care about that second paragraph I guess...

Remember there hardcore 2A guys think average US citizens should be allowed to poses tanks, fighter jets and yes even Nukes.

I dont fall into that category, but lots do.

[Kodos]

No. I just can't stand that so many seem to value their right to own guns over the right of people to live without being shot by a lunatic with a gun. And that our government is bought and paid for, so no common sense strides can be made toward curbing the problem.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

How do you protect yourself, your property, your family and your pets from wildlife? Real question. I've lost livestock this month to coyotes. I've killed 20+ coyotes since January 1.

How do rural Germans protect themselves, or should everyone move into a city.

I would rather you have to worry about your pets being killed by wildlife than for parents to have to worry if their kids will be shot at school. Poison the coyotes maybe?

[cuervo72]

Perhaps if the coyotes had to be buzzed in by the office before having access to the livestock.

[Logan]

Kill the coyotes with your hunting rifle. No one in this country legitimately thinks we're ever going to make possessing a gun illegal. Let's just move the fuck on from this already.

[Hammer]

I appreciate how you feel CU Tiger. I can live with hurting your feelings if it saves lives. You are brain washed. You can't see that, but you are. Your culture has moulded your feelings into what they are now but that culture has to change for your country to move forward.

It might take 20 or 30 years to sort this out. Maybe it will need enough time for a generation to pass away and the new generation will more readily accept things as they are.

The generation before me thought drink driving was okay. They did it all the time before laws were passed then they probably did it less often! Smoking in public places was perfectly normal 20 years ago. It was a pleasure to many people. You walked into a pub and your clothes were smelling of smoke the next day. Now there is no smoking in public facilities. People disagreed, feelings got hurt. It happened anyway and it happened for the better. Times move on and things can change.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

How do you protect yourself, your property, your family and your pets from wildlife? Real question. I've lost livestock this month to coyotes. I've killed 20+ coyotes since January 1.

How do rural Germans protect themselves, or should everyone move into a city.

Maybe we could copy the other countries that are vastly superior to us in this area?

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

My extended family owns lots of guns. They hunt alot as the live up north. I've seen them many times, visits, and all that. I've never seen a gun in my life....

I'm not trying to draw any conclusions either, but it's just not a regular part of life here. It's not on my mind. It's not even an afterthought.

I think you touch on something important: mindset. For whatever reason, in Canada we don't have a strong revolutionary mindset, nor a strong self-defense mindset. It's never seriously crossed my mind to own a gun for protection, or that I might want to own one in case my government needs a reminder that it works for me. I know people who own guns (including my father), but they are strictly hunting rifles, for hunting. I don't know anyone that owns a handgun or some AR-15 or whatever. In those times when I lie awake and think about what I might do in the case of an intruder, my mind goes to blunt objects like bats or hockey sticks, and those seem sufficient. Heck, even our old Prime Minister Jean Chretien defended himself from a home intruder with a stone sculpture.

In America the mindset is very different. The relationship with the government appears to be far more antagonistic, and the undercurrent of possible/inevitable revolution seems ever present. It's not as hard to understand why someone might feel a need or desire to own weapons that may help to defend larger-than-self values that they see at risk of infringement. It's less clear to me why the self-defense mindset also appears to be more prolific and oriented towards guns, but as an outsider it does seem clear that it is at a whole different level.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Kodos

No. I just can't stand that so many seem to value their right to own guns over the right of people to live without being shot by a lunatic with a gun. And that our government is bought and paid for, so no common sense strides can be made toward curbing the problem.

I'm not trying to be a dick, really I am not.
If I am coming off that way, please forgive me.

Why guns though? Why is that the tool you decide to attack.

Far, far more people die in car crashes, or from alcohol, or cigarettes every year then die from guns.

Where is the outrage over these things. Hell without cars people would walk more, be healthier, the air would be cleaner, there would be no dependence on foreign oil. Healthcare costs would plummet...no one NEEDS a car anymore than anyone NEEDS a gun. Just let the trained government officials have the only cars and they can transport us where they want us to go.

The government can haul our foods and goods. Hell we can convert all the now unnecessary gas stations to homeless shelters.


BTW I'm a car guy as well. I have 16 tagged and registered cars and 3 more projects. I dont condone banning them either...but Id sooner ban cars than guns.

How many more innocent kids have to die because their moms dont buckle them up. Just outlaw the damn cars already

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

How do you protect yourself, your property, your family and your pets from wildlife? Real question. I've lost livestock this month to coyotes. I've killed 20+ coyotes since January 1.

How do rural Germans protect themselves, or should everyone move into a city.

How many guns do you own? I feel like 1 simple hunting rifle should be adequate wildlife protection. If you own more, why?

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I'm not trying to be a dick, really I am not.
If I am coming off that way, please forgive me.

Why guns though? Why is that the tool you decide to attack.

Far, far more people die in car crashes, or from alcohol, or cigarettes every year then die from guns.

Where is the outrage over these things. Hell without cars people would walk more, be healthier, the air would be cleaner, there would be no dependence on foreign oil. Healthcare costs would plummet...no one NEEDS a car anymore than anyone NEEDS a gun. Just let the trained government officials have the only cars and they can transport us where they want us to go.

The government can haul our foods and goods. Hell we can convert all the now unnecessary gas stations to homeless shelters.


BTW I'm a car guy as well. I have 16 tagged and registered cars and 3 more projects. I dont condone banning them either...but Id sooner ban cars than guns.

How many more innocent kids have to die because their moms dont buckle them up. Just outlaw the damn cars already

Because guns are the main tools little Tommy uses when he gets butthurt at school and decides to even the score.

People know that using cars carries with it an inherent level of danger. If they are like me, they take steps to limit the danger. I paid extra to get a car that has safety features like airbags, blind spot warnings, lane departure warnings, etc. I took reasonable steps to mitigate the danger. I take public transportation from the train station to New Haven. I drive about 3 miles to get to the station and ride 30 miles in to work.

Cars aren't used to intentionally kill innocents as often as guns are. This is just throwing mud in the water to stop the focus on guns. I can live with accidents easier than I can live with intentional mass murders.

Cigarettes? Ban 'em. Fine by me. Alcohol? Stricter laws and stronger enforcement for infractions. Drink and drive? License gone for 5 years. Second offense - jail time, license gone for life.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I'm not trying to be a dick, really I am not.
If I am coming off that way, please forgive me.

Why guns though? Why is that the tool you decide to attack.

Far, far more people die in car crashes, or from alcohol, or cigarettes every year then die from guns.

Where is the outrage over these things. Hell without cars people would walk more, be healthier, the air would be cleaner, there would be no dependence on foreign oil. Healthcare costs would plummet...no one NEEDS a car anymore than anyone NEEDS a gun. Just let the trained government officials have the only cars and they can transport us where they want us to go.

The government can haul our foods and goods. Hell we can convert all the now unnecessary gas stations to homeless shelters.


BTW I'm a car guy as well. I have 16 tagged and registered cars and 3 more projects. I dont condone banning them either...but Id sooner ban cars than guns.

How many more innocent kids have to die because their moms dont buckle them up. Just outlaw the damn cars already

People die in car "accidents", numbnuts. Trust me, the rest of us aren't trying to change gun laws because idiots like Plaxico Burress shoot themselves in the leg.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I'm not trying to be a dick, really I am not.
If I am coming off that way, please forgive me.

Why guns though? Why is that the tool you decide to attack.

Far, far more people die in car crashes, or from alcohol, or cigarettes every year then die from guns.

Where is the outrage over these things. Hell without cars people would walk more, be healthier, the air would be cleaner, there would be no dependence on foreign oil. Healthcare costs would plummet...no one NEEDS a car anymore than anyone NEEDS a gun. Just let the trained government officials have the only cars and they can transport us where they want us to go.

The government can haul our foods and goods. Hell we can convert all the now unnecessary gas stations to homeless shelters.

BTW I'm a car guy as well. I have 16 tagged and registered cars and 3 more projects. I dont condone banning them either...but Id sooner ban cars than guns.

How many more innocent kids have to die because their moms dont buckle them up. Just outlaw the damn cars already

The primary use of cars is for transportation. They are rarely used as weapons and when people die, it's because of accidents.

With that said, cars are heavily regulated. We are constantly pushing new safety standards to automobile makers. We require people to pass tests to acquire a license to drive. We make laws for drivers to protect them such as wearing a seat belt, having children in proper seats, not driving under the influence, etc. When there are horrific incidences with cars, we almost immediately pass laws to fix them.

Also the argument that no one needs a car over a gun is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. If you gave a choice to people, the car would overwhelmingly win. You literally can't participate in modern society in many parts of the country without one. 70% of adults don't own a gun and manage to avoid being eaten by rabid coyotes.

I understand you like your toys. I don't even have a problem with people owning them. But lets drop the really stupid comparisons.