Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Poor vegans...

[Danny]

Just an interesting observation, but my grandmother's daily diet consists of 1-2 liters of milk, close to a whole box of cinnamon toast crunch, a couple bananas and a half bag of pepperidge farm cookies. She refuses to eat any vegetables what so ever, though when I cook dinner she eats a little of whatever meat / side dish I make (usually just to feel part of the group, as she ends up eating more cereal and milk shortly after).

Her cognitive based abilities and memory are gone (mostly due to a 10 year depression since my grandfather passed away), but she is extremely physically healthy despite the stress she puts on herself from her depression and severe anxiety. She is 86 years old

FWIW, I don't agree with her diet, I just find it amazing she is so physically healthy given her diet and mental stress. You should see her face every time I try and get her to eat anything green.

[QuikSand]

So, in my professional life I do a fair bit of eating out with acquaintances and the like. It's interesting how blunt people can be on this subject, even among people who probably would use a lot more decorum with other matters dealing with people by grouping.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard a variant of the question: "So, what do you people eat?"

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I can't tell you how many time I have heard a variant of the question: "So, what do you people eat?"

We were visiting my Dad and his wife, and despite me telling them earlier of her health change and food eating habits they played ignorance of the entire thing when we started talking about dinner.

My Dad's Wife says something along the line of, "We have plenty of lettuce. You can always eat salad, right?"

Yep, Vegans eat nothing but salad. Thanks for the show of support.

[gstelmack]

There are so many dietary restrictions out there: nut allergies, wheat allergies, gluten issues, vegan, kosher, milk/egg allergies. How are the rest of us supposed to keep up? It was full time for us just keeping track of snacks whenver we involved on of our daughter's friends. Would you rather folks ask, or just screw it up? Yes, folks could be more polite, but picking restaurants and planning menus can be much more complicated when you start taking all the varied modern dietary restrictions into account, so you should also be patient with those trying to accomodate you. We were happy to accomodate our daughter's friend based on the info they gave us, for example, and his parents were always prepared with backups for the times we couldn't. It's a give-and-take here.

[QuikSand]

I don't mind being asked. I somewhat mind being treated like I'm demanding a diet of nothing but absurd and obscure foods.

I'm not talking about people who are in any way responsible for preparing or serving me food. I'm talking about companions at a restaurant meeting, and when the conversation drifts to my food choices and we talk about it, they basically drop their jaw and suggest "how on earth can you possibly survive like that? it's not possible! what sort of invented foods can you eat???"

Sorry for abbreviating and perhaps causing confusion.

If someone is asking "I want you at my party and I know you don't eat ribs, what would be a good option?" I am totally comfortable with that give-and-take, and in virtually every case I will more than meet you halfway. I don't need to be treated like a circus freak is all.

[QuikSand]

And if the phrase "you people" doesn't strike a negative chord with folks down in the Carolinas, my inclusion of it in my hypothetical quotation was intentional coding for someone being insensitive. #RossPerot #AnnRomney

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

And if the phrase "you people" doesn't strike a negative chord with folks down in the Carolinas, my inclusion of it in my hypothetical quotation was intentional coding for someone being insensitive. #RossPerot #AnnRomney

"Y'All" is typical conversation around here.

[Radii]

There's a derogatory intent in "you people" that clearly does not exist with "Y'all", they are drastically different phrases. "So, what do you people eat?" is immediately cringeworthy to me.

[CU Tiger]

When I read "what do you people east" my first thought was wait, QS is black?!?!



To be fair I reacted about the same way when I had lunch with an old friend recently and learned she was a vegan...especially when she had said to meet her at a certain restaurant.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

"Y'All" is typical conversation around here.

...if your parents were raised here.


"You people," FWIW, can mean more than derogation. It can be a signal of an utter lack of education about your dietary choice. Yeah, it certainly has that sneering connotation about it, but I just imagine that there's a substantial portion of people that never get past an initial mental picture of a head of raw broccoli when they think about a "vegan."

[sabotai]

I tried hummus at a restaurant the other day and I really liked it. Fast forward to today, I buy hummus at the store (Sabra Classic Hummus) and I do not like it. Can't figure out if there was something in the restaurant kind that made me like it, or if Sabra adds something to their hummus that I don't like.

What brands/flavors do you guys like?

[QuikSand]

There's some variation in hummus, but really not a ton. In most cases, it's mostly just pureed chickpeas with varying amounts of tahini (ground sesame seeds), oil, lemon juice, and garlic. Unless what you ordered in the restaurant was something with a major added ingredient (adding extra garlic, olives, pine nuts, etc), I'd think it might just be the amount of oil as the biggest differential. The store-bought brands are fairly oily, but restaurants often make it downright viscous with olive and/or sesame oil.

[sabotai]

The Sabra kind does have a fairly strong "oil" taste to it (to me, anyway).

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by sabotai

I've been using Stevia (Truvia) for awhile now. I hated all of the artificial sweeteners I tried. But this stuff is great and it's been in Acme for awhile.

It's helped me cut down the calories of my coffee, but the biggest difference for my coffee was that I stopped using creamer and started adding cocoa powder to it. My cup of coffee with sugar and creamer went from 200-250 calories to around 20 using stevia and cocoa powder.

(It does sometimes take quite a bit of stirring to get most of the cocoa to dissolve, to the point where I am creating my own little "act of God" in my coffee cup).

How goes it with smarter coffee? I have dropped the creamer from mine most of the time, but still miss it. You?

Any luck with Stevita?

[JPhillips]

My wife swears by Truvia. I still notice the taste difference, but she uses it exclusively.

[QuikSand]

I was okay with Truvia, but once I tried Stevita I was enthusiastically sold.

[Dutch]

I will assume that these substitutes (Stevita/Truvia) are better for you than something like Splenda?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

How goes it with smarter coffee? I have dropped the creamer from mine most of the time, but still miss it. You?

Any luck with Stevita?

I've pretty much eliminated creamer from coffee. A few weeks ago, I got an itch for the old creamer I used to use (one loaded with sugar and chocolate) and it tastes awful to me now. Just waaaaay too sweet. Pretty much just coffee and two tablespoons of stevia. I spent the last five days in Chicago and it didn't even occur to me to add creamer to my coffee in the morning. Just grabbed a few packets of sugar and that was it. So I think I've kicked the creamer habit for good. (Maybe in a year or two, I'll be drinking it black.......probably not.)

I tried the Stevita packets but didn't like them. I noticed the ingredients between the Stevita packets and Stevita spoonable aren't the same, but I haven't gotten around to trying the Stevita Spoonable yet.

And on the hummus front, I found Tribe to be much, much better than Sabra.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I will assume that these substitutes (Stevita/Truvia) are better for you than something like Splenda?

Good video here

A Harmless Artificial Sweetener | NutritionFacts.org

And more recently here

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-stevia-good-for-you/

Lots of health foodie types moving toward stevia

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Good video here

A Harmless Artificial Sweetener | NutritionFacts.org

Lots of health foodie types moving toward stevia

Interesting, I really don't care what my artificial sweetner tastes like, so I'll give some of those given the "okay" a shot once I find them.

[cuervo72]

I dunno, cancer.gov tells me that saccharin is just fine re: cancer (as are the others). The FDA, EPA, and even the state of California have declared it safe. I'll take my chances.

[Dutch]

Wow, I completely missed the "saccharin is safe" memo. My options are just opening up....next somebody will tell me it's okay to put Bailey's in my coffee.

[cuervo72]

Well, I'm sure someone will say that it's just Big Saccharin leaning on the gov't in order to keep pushing their horribly addictive cancer powder to an unsuspecting populace. Or something.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I dunno, cancer.gov tells me that saccharin is just fine re: cancer (as are the others). The FDA, EPA, and even the state of California have declared it safe. I'll take my chances.

When I'm out and want sweetener, I now usually use saccharin ahead of the blue or yellow options, for whatever that might be worth.

[sabotai]

When I'm out, I just use sugar. All of those artificial sweeteners do bad things to me (metallic aftertaste, make me more hungry throughout the day, heartburn....)

[sabotai]

My quest to find really good store bought hummus is finally over. Tribe Zesty Spice and Garlic Hummus is the clear winner.

[QuikSand]

Promising development for those amidst this effort - Costco seems to have a deal with Field Roast to sell a multi-pack of their sausages, which are absolutely excellent given their niche. Good sign that there's creeping demand for this sort of thing, and Costco as usual is correct in selecting their partners.

[Telle]

I watched "Forks Over Knives" last night on Netflix. I was actually fairly impressed. I expected it to be more focused on the weight loss angle, and really liked that it instead mainly focused on improved health numbers.

I don't think I'm going to make a dramatic lifestyle change to an exclusively whole foods plant-based diet, especially as how hard it would be with RendeR and the kids. However, it definitely has me inspired to include more produce in my daily diet and reduce meat and dairy consumption (never was a big milk drinker anyways, but I do enjoy yogurt and cheese).

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Telle

...it definitely has me inspired to include more produce in my daily diet

Good for you!

[RainMaker]

I've reduced meat in my diet recently. Not really a full on health thing, but I sort of feel guilty consuming so many animals every year. Basically if I can swap out my morning turkey bacon for some lentils or whatever, I'll do that. Also gotten on a steel cut oatmeal kick of late.

Does anyone have tips for mixing in veggies with meals? I just don't like them and have trouble eating them plain. I usually will steam some and basically hold my nose, but I'd love to find a way to make some things more appealing without dousing it in cheese.

[timmynausea]

Weird to suddenly check this thread out. I've been eating a veggie heavy diet since about April. No meat. Some dairy but greatly reduced from my old ways. I haven't seen Forks Over Knives, but I'd seen so much data about animal products = disease and greens = no disease that I decided to go for it.

It hasn't been a very difficult transition at all. Also anybody looking to get a couple extra ounces of kale or spinach in a tasty dessert should look up green monster smoothie recipes. I have one or two of those a day.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does anyone have tips for mixing in veggies with meals? I just don't like them and have trouble eating them plain. I usually will steam some and basically hold my nose, but I'd love to find a way to make some things more appealing without dousing it in cheese.

A few things that have worked well for me:

-when eating pasta (I stick with whole wheat pasta, by the way, tons better for you), I go about half pasta and half vegetables -- peas, broccoli, or a mix of things. If I have about a cup of cooked WW pasta and a cup of frozen peas, topped with fairly low fat pasta sauce and a handful of olives -- that feels like a rewarding meal to me.

-I throw leafy greens into foods I am sauteeing with good success... especially spinach. I'm warming up to eating spinach in a lot of situations, but it is fairly easily hidden in with breakfast potatoes, peppers and onions, soup, or whatnot.

-try a green smoothie, using frozen fruit and some combination of green vegetables that you can live with (and perhaps a protein source)... with just a little common sense, it's fairly easy to spin together a fruity drink that tastes great and pretty much hides the taste of even the roughest greens (kale, collards, etc)... I will add some weirdo stuff like spirulina or hemp powder to mine, but that's not essential at all

-use flavorful additions... my standard rotation is something like hummus, guacamole, sauteed onions and peppers with garlic, salsa, and tabouleh.

Good luck.

[Kodos]

I find grilling veggies makes them very palatable.


As a side note, Morningstar bean veggie-burgers are surprisingly good. I know they don't sound good, but give them a try.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

A few things that have worked well for me:

-when eating pasta (I stick with whole wheat pasta, by the way, tons better for you),

While I won't slag on anyone for being a vegan/vegetarian and if they feel they can get the applicable amount of protein and nutrients from eating a plant based whole foods diet, all the power to them.

However, if the motivation for being vegan is health, then I question how anyone can make grains a part of their diet. Whole wheat is "tons better"? I would say it's less bad, but still bad nonetheless. Grains are unnecessary at best and for the most part, flat out unhealthy.

[QuikSand]

I have yet to be as persuaded as you clearly are, I guess. I have made efforts to reduce my grains a good deal, and to stick with whole grains nearly all the time I eat them, and subscribe to the thinking that this is the right direction to go. I know some argue that grains are altogether unnecessary, and I simply don't claim to be well versed enough to either refute or endorse the view.

I think most grains do amount to pretty empty calories, especially the relatively tasty ones. Whether there's conclusive evidence that they are harmful in the main... I don't claim to know enough.

[QuikSand]

The pursuit of protein seems like a common refrain in this discussion. I hear it a lot... We were all told in school how important protein was.

A few sites worth checking out... Mostly reinforcing that the common perception of protein is pretty misguided, and that getting "enough" is quite easy, even for plant based dieters:

Nutrition for Everyone: Basics: Protein | DNPAO | CDC

Tips for Vegetarians

Trying to stick with mainstream sources here, for obvious reasons.

[CU Tiger]

I'll say this. Any adult male sustaining on 60grams of protein a day and weighing north of 120lbs....better be very sedentary. Otherwise there are strong indicators that demetia and osteo issues are staring them in the face.

Im too tired and we are too opposed to probably be productive in a debate....but absent of protein I am curious how you intend to promote lean muscle growth and even subsistence. Even if you dont want to be athletic muscle tone as you age for things like balance and actually being able to walk are kind of critical.

Now if you want to eliminate evil animals and supplant them with artificial proteins compounds (shakes, bars etc) then fell free...

But its hard to argue against the fact that we evolved and our digestion system is predicated on animal fats and protein synthesis.

[Telle]

So this thread has been going for quite awhile now. I'm curious.. who has been able to maintain a (mostly?) whole foods plant based diet in the long term? I've found it's easy to follow a "fad" diet for a few weeks, but hard to sustain it over time.

Also, has anyone seen improvement in health numbers? Not weight necessarily, but cholesterol and/or blood pressure?

Thanks!

[QuikSand]

I have posted bits and pieces here in this thread, but here's my personal capsule:

-closing in on 15 months 100% plant-based, and pretty whole-foods compliant (still eating more oil and salt than I'd prefer, and I do sometimes settle for the processed grains when there's no good alternative)

-main motivating worry was cardiovascular health and related family history

-last summer (age 43), I was taking hypertension meds, a statin, a beta blocker, and low-dose aspirin for cardio issues... I am now down to just the aspirin

-my total cholesterol, at last measure was down to 138, though I have had trouble getting my "good" cholesterol elevated (it seems this is less critical if I'm not taking in any dietary cholesterol at all, at least)

-I have dropped about 40 pounds, depending on how you measure the starting point of the diet -- I admittedly attribute this to a combination of eating better, eating less, and doing more

-My palate has changed dramatically, and there are foods that I now heartily enjoy that didn't interest me that much before my switch

[Telle]

Thank you for sharing, QuikSand! I'm only 33, and a couple of years ago I was put on a tiny dose of a blood pressure med, because mine had been slightly elevated for awhile. I eventually came off of it, but we still keep a close eye on my blood pressure and it's probably a little closer to "borderline" than I would like. So my main goal in making dietary changes is to try to get my blood pressure down some more.

[QuikSand]

Reducing sodium is clearly the main dietary thing to target HBP, and unless you're a salt-pourer (I'm not) I really think the single biggest move to make is to dramatically reduce the amount of prepared foods you eat. Whatever your larger choices are, getting rid of the extra salt, fat, additives and preservatives that are required to make boxes and bags of food edible with lengthy shelf-life is a really good step.

[Telle]

Yeah I think we do eat quite a bit of processed foods and take-out.. all of which ups the sodium intake. But then I've also read recently that only some people's blood pressure is sodium sensitive.. although I obviously have no idea whether I fall into that category or not.

So my plan is to do more home cooking, with lots of fresh or frozen produce.

My other issue is that I've never really enjoyed things like beans (both taste and texture issues).. and they seem to be in a lot of recipes for veggie-heavy foods. But, I think I'm going to give them a try again and see what happens.

[Kodos]

I have stayed with a dramatically-reduced meat diet since last November. When I do eat meat, it is usually fish, whereas in the past, I consumed a ton of chicken, a decent amount of beef, and very little fish. Once in a while I have beef or chicken as a treat. My weight is down from 215 or so to 200 or so. Have had some struggles over the summer with family gatherings where it was hard to eat healthy food. I do need to get myself back to being more serious about it if I want to get down to 180 or so, which is my goal weight.

My main struggle has been getting myself to exercise. The only chance I get for serious exercise is at night after the kids are in bed and I've finished preparing food and clothes for the next day at work. By 10 p.m., hopping on the stationary bike has been a bit of a hard sell. I have been walking on breaks during the day, but that isn't really enough to get the more stubborn sub-200 pounds off.

I have really struggled with giving up soda. It's the only source of caffeine that I like, and I use it as a mental crutch when I am tired. I never get to bed early enough to get a decent night of sleep.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Kodos

My main struggle has been getting myself to exercise. The only chance I get for serious exercise is at night after the kids are in bed and I've finished preparing food and clothes for the next day at work. By 10 p.m., hopping on the stationary bike has been a bit of a hard sell. I have been walking on breaks during the day, but that isn't really enough to get the more stubborn sub-200 pounds off.

Agreed on this.

[Dutch]

Would you like tofu with that?: McDonald's to open first vegetarian outlet

I wouldn't be surprised to see these popping up in metropolitan cities here...I'm not sure how successful they would be...but you never know these days.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I have stayed with a dramatically-reduced meat diet since last November. When I do eat meat, it is usually fish, whereas in the past, I consumed a ton of chicken, a decent amount of beef, and very little fish. Once in a while I have beef or chicken as a treat. My weight is down from 215 or so to 200 or so. Have had some struggles over the summer with family gatherings where it was hard to eat healthy food. I do need to get myself back to being more serious about it if I want to get down to 180 or so, which is my goal weight.

My main struggle has been getting myself to exercise. The only chance I get for serious exercise is at night after the kids are in bed and I've finished preparing food and clothes for the next day at work. By 10 p.m., hopping on the stationary bike has been a bit of a hard sell. I have been walking on breaks during the day, but that isn't really enough to get the more stubborn sub-200 pounds off.

I have really struggled with giving up soda. It's the only source of caffeine that I like, and I use it as a mental crutch when I am tired. I never get to bed early enough to get a decent night of sleep.

The 3 Day Diet Weight Loss Plan Review

I've tried this fad diet a few times to kick-start my training programs and it's worked superbly. I was pushing 210 just 2 years ago and have gotten down to a manageable 180 w/3 days a week training (running is my flavor of fun)...and normally can get as low as 175 with 5 days a week training. (I run first thing in the morning...I just roll out of bed and go...20 minutes later I'm done (I typically only do 2 miles and some change)

I eat pretty good during the week and splurge a little on the weekend...pizza on Friday night with the fam and grill something burgers/steaks/chicken at some point during the weekend. I avoid deserts/snacks (except I love me some popcorn) like the plague though...but here in Florida I subsidize my cravings with 40 calorie popcicles...hey, it's mostly ice but it's 40 calories of sweets I wouldn't normally be getting since I can't have the pie.

[Danny]

Anyone have a list of good plant based recipes? My wife and I are going to try having a more plant based diet (not exclusively, but more so anyway). Ideally, recipes which are fairly low in cost.

[Danny]

Oh and ease of preparation is a big thing too.

[Telle]

I made Tunisian Vegetable CousCous the other day, and it came out really well. The rest of my family stuck their noses up at it, but I liked it. It's somewhat time consuming because there's so many vegetables to chop up, but it's rather easy to prepare and is low cost if you already have the spices (my paprika was REALLY old so I sprung for a new bottle, and I also didn't have any cardamom.. so making this did cost me a little bit). Also, based on reading the reviews I did op to double the spices and add garlic.. which I think was good advice.

Unfortunately I had stomach trouble a couple of days later, and I'm trying hard to fight the natural instinct to associate a newly tried food with the sickness.