2011-12 MLB Offseason Thread: Tigers are really stupid - Page 5

Ksyrup · 11-11-2011, 02:13 PM

He never used him that way. He's been the standard 1 inning per appearance, 65 games reliever.

2006 - 59 games/68 innings
2007 - 59/58
2008 - 67/69
2009 - 66/68
2010 - 65/67
2011 - 63/64

I think if you try upping him to 80 or so innings the first year or two of a 4-year deal at age 31ish, you're asking for trouble.

RedKingGold · 11-11-2011, 02:45 PM

In Amaro I trust.

molson · 11-11-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

He never used him that way. He's been the standard 1 inning per appearance, 65 games reliever.

2006 - 59 games/68 innings
2007 - 59/58
2008 - 67/69
2009 - 66/68
2010 - 65/67
2011 - 63/64

I think if you try upping him to 80 or so innings the first year or two of a 4-year deal at age 31ish, you're asking for trouble.

I do seem to remember him pitching in some 8th inning tie games in 3-4 years ago.....perhaps not often enough to have any real impact.

Atocep · 11-11-2011, 09:01 PM

The Phillies gave up a first round pick and $50 million over 4 years for an extreme flyball reliever that just had a season with an unsustainable homerun rate?

This could get ugly.

Comey · 11-11-2011, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

The Phillies gave up a first round pick and $50 million over 4 years for an extreme flyball reliever that just had a season with an unsustainable homerun rate?

This could get ugly.

I see you read Keith Law. ; )

stevew · 11-11-2011, 10:34 PM

I really don't like the pick compensation system.

Resign Madson-no change in picks
Let Madson walk and sign Papelbon--possibly get better first round pick(depending on who signs Madson) and pick up free sandwich pick.

Signing Reyes for Rollins most likely results in the Phillies giving up their 2nd rounder and getting a first and sandwich pick

Yeah, it could potentially backfire if one of the guys takes arb.

Butter · 11-14-2011, 09:46 AM

Mike Matheny as head coach of the Cards? Wondering our local Cards fans' reactions to this hire?

jbergey22 · 11-14-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Mike Matheny as head coach of the Cards? Wondering our local Cards fans' reactions to this hire?

Must have had a great interview. Beating out Oquendo, Francona, and Sandberg is no small feat.

markprior22 · 11-14-2011, 10:03 AM

Seeing the success of other catchers as managers, along with Matheny's supposed leadership skills makes me think it might be a good hire for STL.

Ksyrup · 11-14-2011, 10:05 AM

As long as the infrastructure remains (is Duncan coming back?), I think it may be a smart hire that allows him to learn on the job with a bunch of guys surrounding him that know what they're doing. Seems obvious that they hired him because he's smart, knows the Cardinals, and is good with these guys and in general with personalities. The strategy stuff will be a work in progress.

JPhillips · 11-14-2011, 10:07 AM

My prediction is that Matheny will be a much better manager if Pujols is re-signed.

Ksyrup · 11-14-2011, 10:17 AM

That is undeniably true. He could be a genius, in fact.

Thomkal · 11-14-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Mike Matheny as head coach of the Cards? Wondering our local Cards fans' reactions to this hire?

A bit of a bizarre hire I think. Going from such an experienced manager to one that has none at all. I wonder if LaRussa recommended him for the job because I would have thought Francona would have been the logical pick if you are going for an experienced manager. But certainly has experience with the Cardinals system and players so we shall see.

Ksyrup · 11-14-2011, 10:44 AM

Might be totally unfair, but my first thought when I think Francona and Cardinals is alcohol. Cards have had issues with it in the past, and Francona just left a team whose players were drinking in the clubhouse during games. I don't know if it would have been a real problem, but certainly the perception wouldn't have helped.

Thomkal · 11-14-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Might be totally unfair, but my first thought when I think Francona and Cardinals is alcohol. Cards have had issues with it in the past, and Francona just left a team whose players were drinking in the clubhouse during games. I don't know if it would have been a real problem, but certainly the perception wouldn't have helped.

yeah I hadn't thought about that-being its such recent history, it could have an effect on his hiring potential for a while at least.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-14-2011, 10:58 AM

Dodgers about to lock Kemp up, 8 years at 20M per.

JPhillips · 11-14-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Dodgers about to lock Kemp up, 8 years at 20M per.

That's a lot of money for a guy who's good, but coming off a career year. I guess there really isn't much choice, but if he's the @3WAR guy he's averaged before last year that money will look really bad when he's in his mid-thirties.

sterlingice · 11-14-2011, 01:06 PM

Kimbrel NL ROY (wow- that field was not one of the better ones)
Hellickson AL ROY

SI

jbergey22 · 11-14-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

What was wrong with the NL ROY field? Granted, Freeman's atrocious defense killed his WAR, but if the voters cared about advanced stats at all you had a 3.5 WAR 2B (Danny Espinosa, 4th overall NL 2B) and a 3.1 WAR C (Wilson Ramos, 6th overall NL C) to choose from. You can also throw Darwin Barney in there as a 2B with a 2.2 WAR.

Among pitchers, you had Kimbrel with a 3.2 WAR as a closer, Brandon Beachy with a 2.8 WAR as a starter, Vance Worley with a 2.5 WAR as a starter, Cory Luebke with a 2.4 WAR as both starter (17) and reliever (29), and Josh Collmenter with a 2.2 WAR as a starter.

That was a pretty good rookie class, but the voters went gaga over crap like RBI for Freeman and didn't put Espinosa in the top 4 because of freaking worthless batting average.

90 percent of the voters have probably never heard of WAR.

Will probably be a good 20-30 years before the old traditional stats are faded out for the more modern stats sadly enough.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-14-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That's a lot of money for a guy who's good, but coming off a career year. I guess there really isn't much choice, but if he's the @3WAR guy he's averaged before last year that money will look really bad when he's in his mid-thirties.

Heyman tweets it contains a full NTC. So, they better hope last year is predictive.

Arles · 11-14-2011, 02:11 PM

Given what John Mozeliak accomplished last season, short of maybe Jay Paterno - I'm pretty open with anyone he hired. Methany was always a sharp player and catchers good at handling pitchers tend to make strong managers (Girardi, Torre, Scioscia, Bochy, Hurdle in recent times).

MrBug708 · 11-14-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That's a lot of money for a guy who's good, but coming off a career year. I guess there really isn't much choice, but if he's the @3WAR guy he's averaged before last year that money will look really bad when he's in his mid-thirties.

He was probably gonna get 15 million dollars in Arbitration next year and then want a 8 year deal. Dodgers are just getting it to end early.

MrBug708 · 11-14-2011, 05:38 PM

Dodgers sign Ellis for 2 years 8.5 million...?

Ksyrup · 11-15-2011, 09:10 AM

Surprised no one mentioned that Crane has agreed to move the Astros to the AL in exchange for a $50M discount on his purchase of the team. Pending owner approval, of course. But this paves the way for the big realignment into 3 5-team divisions in each league, with interleague play pretty much every day.

RomaGoth · 11-15-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Surprised no one mentioned that Crane has agreed to move the Astros to the AL in exchange for a $50M discount on his purchase of the team. Pending owner approval, of course. But this paves the way for the big realignment into 3 5-team divisions in each league, with interleague play pretty much every day.

I hate interleague play. I am not a huge traditionalist, but I enjoyed the playoffs much more when there were no wildcards and the teams in the WS hadn't played each other in, like, 15 years or something.

stevew · 11-15-2011, 10:00 AM

I much prefer not being in a 6 team division, even if we now will play 30 interleague games. I'm assuming 18*4=72 divisional games. 6*10 intraleague games. That would leave 30 more games.

I prefer, that if we have interleague play, that it follow rhyme and reason. Maybe playing East vs East(etc) every year and alternating a different opposite division.

sterlingice · 11-15-2011, 11:22 AM

Time to update the thread title. Matt Kemp maybe or something about postseason awards. Time to move fatty off the front page

SI

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-15-2011, 01:05 PM

Verlander unanimously.

dawgfan · 11-15-2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Verlander unanimously.

Verlander is certainly deserving, but I'm a bit surprised it was unanimous considering that Sabathia was just as good.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-15-2011, 01:12 PM

CC 4th, behind Weaver and Shields.

stevew · 11-15-2011, 01:23 PM

I figure either Devin Hester or the Giants Offensive Line will win NL MVP tomorrow.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-15-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Amazing. Weaver wasn't as good as Haren on his own staff. Shields was good but guys like Felix and Wilson were better. It confounds me when trying to figure out what in the world these voters are looking at.

This might shock you, but as much as you like to rant and rave about xFIP and WAR on the internet, most people in the country don't give a shit about those things.

Sounding like the smartest guy in the room is fun, but this result isn't "amazing" in any way.

ISiddiqui · 11-15-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

The NL vote should be unanimous as Halladay was well above everyone else.

Halladay may not even win the award, so lets not go as far as should be unanimous.

Besides, if you look at WAR, Halladay wasn't that much higher than Kershaw (though that's the Baseball-reference calculation), and Kershaw was just about even with Halladay in other numbers - but looks better than Halladay in the "traditional" stats.

IIRC, being #1 in Wins, ERA, and K's is called the Pitching Triple Crown... and Kershaw got that.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-15-2011, 02:07 PM

Your usual histrionics aside, I was just saying that mock surprise that the awards weren't given as you have read they should be is not really "amazing."

ISiddiqui · 11-15-2011, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Why the fuck you think acting like a cocksucking moron with your head in the sand is relevant to the conversation is up for debate.

You should ask yourself.

Ronnie made a very reasonable post. Oh, and that is also why Kershaw is likely to win the NL Cy Young tomorrow as well.

Logan · 11-15-2011, 02:13 PM

Shocking turn of events here at FOFC.

Scoobz0202 · 11-15-2011, 02:15 PM

News at 11.

dawgfan · 11-15-2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Amazing. Weaver wasn't as good as Haren on his own staff. Shields was good but guys like Felix and Wilson were better. It confounds me when trying to figure out what in the world these voters are looking at.

I've learned to not get too worked up about award votes.

Change happens slowly, but it is happening. Felix winning the Cy Young for 2010 wouldn't have happened even five years prior IMO, but the relentless continuing education of the baseball fanbase combined with the natural progression of time and a younger generation far more open and accepting of modern baseball stats means voting in another 10 years will likely look a lot more at things like xFIP (and related metrics) and thus calculations like WAR.

RomaGoth · 11-15-2011, 02:42 PM

Verlander deserved it more than CC or anyone else in the AL.

dawgfan · 11-15-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Verlander deserved it more than CC or anyone else in the AL.

Why?

DanGarion · 11-15-2011, 03:11 PM

Well shit since you guys already calculated the numbers fuck voting and give it to the people with the stats.

RomaGoth · 11-15-2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Why?

Verlander dominated opposing batters nearly all season.

dawgfan · 11-15-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Verlander dominated opposing batters nearly all season.

No more so than Sabathia.

dawgfan · 11-15-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Well shit since you guys already calculated the numbers fuck voting and give it to the people with the stats.

The voters have always given the award to the people with the "stats". The difference is which stats are given primary weight when deciding how to vote.

11-11-2011, 02:13 PM	#201
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	He never used him that way. He's been the standard 1 inning per appearance, 65 games reliever. 2006 - 59 games/68 innings 2007 - 59/58 2008 - 67/69 2009 - 66/68 2010 - 65/67 2011 - 63/64 I think if you try upping him to 80 or so innings the first year or two of a 4-year deal at age 31ish, you're asking for trouble. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-14-2011, 09:46 AM	#207
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Mike Matheny as head coach of the Cards? Wondering our local Cards fans' reactions to this hire? __________________ My listening habits

11-14-2011, 10:05 AM	#210
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	As long as the infrastructure remains (is Duncan coming back?), I think it may be a smart hire that allows him to learn on the job with a bunch of guys surrounding him that know what they're doing. Seems obvious that they hired him because he's smart, knows the Cardinals, and is good with these guys and in general with personalities. The strategy stuff will be a work in progress. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 11-14-2011 at 10:06 AM.

11-14-2011, 10:07 AM	#211
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	My prediction is that Matheny will be a much better manager if Pujols is re-signed. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

11-14-2011, 10:17 AM	#212
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	That is undeniably true. He could be a genius, in fact. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-11-2011, 02:45 PM	#202
RedKingGold College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002	In Amaro I trust.

11-11-2011, 09:01 PM	#204
Atocep Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Puyallup, WA	The Phillies gave up a first round pick and $50 million over 4 years for an extreme flyball reliever that just had a season with an unsustainable homerun rate? This could get ugly.

11-11-2011, 10:34 PM	#206
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I really don't like the pick compensation system. Resign Madson-no change in picks Let Madson walk and sign Papelbon--possibly get better first round pick(depending on who signs Madson) and pick up free sandwich pick. Signing Reyes for Rollins most likely results in the Phillies giving up their 2nd rounder and getting a first and sandwich pick Yeah, it could potentially backfire if one of the guys takes arb.

11-14-2011, 10:03 AM	#209
markprior22 High School Varsity Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, il	Seeing the success of other catchers as managers, along with Matheny's supposed leadership skills makes me think it might be a good hire for STL.

11-14-2011, 10:44 AM	#214
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Might be totally unfair, but my first thought when I think Francona and Cardinals is alcohol. Cards have had issues with it in the past, and Francona just left a team whose players were drinking in the clubhouse during games. I don't know if it would have been a real problem, but certainly the perception wouldn't have helped. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-14-2011, 10:58 AM	#216
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	Dodgers about to lock Kemp up, 8 years at 20M per. __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

11-14-2011, 01:06 PM	#219
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Kimbrel NL ROY (wow- that field was not one of the better ones) Hellickson AL ROY SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-14-2011, 02:11 PM	#223
Arles Grey Dog Software Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Phoenix, AZ by way of Belleville, IL	Given what John Mozeliak accomplished last season, short of maybe Jay Paterno - I'm pretty open with anyone he hired. Methany was always a sharp player and catchers good at handling pitchers tend to make strong managers (Girardi, Torre, Scioscia, Bochy, Hurdle in recent times). __________________ Developer of Bowl Bound College Football http://www.greydogsoftware.com

11-14-2011, 05:38 PM	#225
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Dodgers sign Ellis for 2 years 8.5 million...?

11-15-2011, 09:10 AM	#226
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Surprised no one mentioned that Crane has agreed to move the Astros to the AL in exchange for a $50M discount on his purchase of the team. Pending owner approval, of course. But this paves the way for the big realignment into 3 5-team divisions in each league, with interleague play pretty much every day. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-15-2011, 10:00 AM	#228
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I much prefer not being in a 6 team division, even if we now will play 30 interleague games. I'm assuming 184=72 divisional games. 610 intraleague games. That would leave 30 more games. I prefer, that if we have interleague play, that it follow rhyme and reason. Maybe playing East vs East(etc) every year and alternating a different opposite division. Last edited by stevew : 11-15-2011 at 11:30 AM.

11-15-2011, 11:22 AM	#229
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Time to update the thread title. Matt Kemp maybe or something about postseason awards. Time to move fatty off the front page SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-15-2011, 01:05 PM	#230
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	Verlander unanimously. __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

11-15-2011, 01:12 PM	#232
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	CC 4th, behind Weaver and Shields. __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

11-15-2011, 01:23 PM	#235
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I figure either Devin Hester or the Giants Offensive Line will win NL MVP tomorrow.

11-15-2011, 02:07 PM	#240
Ronnie Dobbs2 Pro Rookie Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Bahston Mass	Your usual histrionics aside, I was just saying that mock surprise that the awards weren't given as you have read they should be is not really "amazing." __________________ There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think

11-15-2011, 02:13 PM	#242
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Shocking turn of events here at FOFC.

11-15-2011, 02:15 PM	#243
Scoobz0202 Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio	News at 11.

11-15-2011, 03:11 PM	#247
DanGarion Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwest	Well shit since you guys already calculated the numbers fuck voting and give it to the people with the stats. __________________ Los Angeles Dodgers Check out the FOFC Groups on Facebook! and Reddit! DON'T REPORT ME BRO!

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