The Trump Presidency – 2016

[ISiddiqui]

And every single expert I've seen have said that we are headed for a spike in October. And the flu is also coming. People having the flu and Covid at the same time is going to be a disaster.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Indiana just quit.

Fucking quitters.

Americans used to actually be willing to sacrifice. Or, at least, that was the story we told ourselves.

Now we aren't even telling the story anymore. We're a nation of weak-ass quitters and don't even care who knows about it.

Were the stories of the United States sacrificing during wartime in the 40s just that? Like 40% of the people sacrificed while the other 60% didn't do jack but we integrated that 40% into the mythos because it sounded good and American? I mean, I have no idea and only one of my relatives who was alive then is alive today.

(EDIT: I should ask grandma. That said, people were more "insulated" in a way then - you couldn't see beyond your local town except what was broadcast on the news so I'm not sure what she'd "know". Now, I can see some dimwit on the other side of country or world broadcast to the entire world that he doesn't want to wear a mask and how proud he is of that)

SI

[whomario]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And every single expert I've seen have said that we are headed for a spike in October. And the flu is also coming. People having the flu and Covid at the same time is going to be a disaster.

Flu might conceivably be skipped this year with how little circulation the Influenza Viruses had in the southern hemispere (due to a) covid measures in place and b) almost no travel in their autumn). Not smart to be counting the proverbial chickens yet but there's hope here
Especially since even basic precautions by a decent chunk of people would make a big dent. Remember that Influenza is much less explosively spreading by default, so takes less to impede (which makes it kinda shameful we don't make the effort as a society but instead are cool with people going to work sick etc).

[RainMaker]

Everyone around here has been good. Masks on at stores, good social distancing. Barely any spread in my neighborhood. Doesn't seem that difficult.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by whomario

Flu might conceivably be skipped this year with how little circulation the Influenza Viruses had in the southern hemispere (due to a) covid measures in place and b) almost no travel in their autumn). Not smart to be counting the proverbial chickens yet but there's hope here
Especially since even basic precautions by a decent chunk of people would make a big dent. Remember that Influenza is much less explosively spreading by default, so takes less to impede (which makes it kinda shameful we don't make the effort as a society but instead are cool with people going to work sick etc).

Well that does give me some hope. I know the doctors and hospitals here are dreading flu season (we aren't doing a great job in the US state of Georgia).

[BillyMadison]

This is sobering from the latest Atlantic issue released:

We are accustomed to choosing electors by popular vote, but nothing in the Constitution says it has to be that way. Article II provides that each state shall appoint electors “in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct.” Since the late 19th century, every state has ceded the decision to its voters. Even so, the Supreme Court affirmed in Bush v. Gore that a state “can take back the power to appoint electors.” How and when a state might do so has not been tested for well over a century.

Trump may test this. According to sources in the Republican Party at the state and national levels, the Trump campaign is discussing contingency plans to bypass election results and appoint loyal electors in battleground states where Republicans hold the legislative majority. With a justification based on claims of rampant fraud, Trump would ask state legislators to set aside the popular vote and exercise their power to choose a slate of electors directly. The longer Trump succeeds in keeping the vote count in doubt, the more pressure legislators will feel to act before the safe-harbor deadline expires.

Later...

When The Atlantic asked the Trump campaign about plans to circumvent the vote and appoint loyal electors, and about other strategies discussed in the article, the deputy national press secretary did not directly address the questions. “It’s outrageous that President Trump and his team are being villainized for upholding the rule of law and transparently fighting for a free and fair election,” Thea McDonald said in an email. “The mainstream media are giving the Democrats a free pass for their attempts to completely uproot the system and throw our election into chaos.” Trump is fighting for a trustworthy election, she wrote, “and any argument otherwise is a conspiracy theory intended to muddy the waters.”

And

Republicans control both legislative chambers in the six most closely contested battleground states. Of those, Arizona and Florida have Republican governors, too. In Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, the governors are Democrats.

What If Trump Refuses to Concede? - The Atlantic

Our country is fucked. It's like watching the fall of democracy and sanity die in slow motion.

[GrantDawg]

That is scary, but stuff like this story can also be counter-productive. You keep telling people their vote won't matter before an election, they won't vote.

[Kodos]

Yep. Ideally, you want people to know their vote will count, but not overconfident that their candidate will win.

[BillyMadison]

That is scary, but stuff like this story can also be counter-productive. You keep telling people their vote won't matter before an election, they won't vote.

Counterproductive to report on a subversive plan by the President and his office to undermine election results and stage a coup? Yea, let's just bury our head in the sand, plug our ears and say "la la la" knowing that norms will be upheld and our votes will be counted fairly. Trusting the Republicans to do the right thing and respect the system has worked SO well the last 4 years...

[stevew]

The republican house in Pennsylvania is flat out insane. There are a shit ton of members so all these little outposts get representation. Guys were in session all throughout the early part of the Covid restrictions attempting to ratfuck the process. I don't doubt that some shithead like Russ Diamond won't become a hero when he flat out attempts to ignore the election results.

Also, how does one deal when his cousin attempts to impeach the governor of your state? I'm still kind of pissed off about it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

That is scary, but stuff like this story can also be counter-productive. You keep telling people their vote won't matter before an election, they won't vote.

I get that with rumors and speculation, but when high level GOP folks are willing to go on the record it has to be reported.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I always get flack for this, but a lot of Republicans really do think, I've got mine, fuck you.

There's a lot of truth in this. The missing part is that a lot of those who believe that health care is only for those who can afford it (and other similar mindsets) isn't just about **** those who can't afford it. There's also the belief that such an approach is better for everyone by not encouraging dependency on the government.

Originally Posted by BillyMadison

Counterproductive to report on a subversive plan by the President and his office to undermine election results and stage a coup? Yea, let's just bury our head in the sand, plug our ears and say "la la la" knowing that norms will be upheld and our votes will be counted fairly.

Agree with this completely. It's important that people know we have a President who is considering doing such things, instead of letting the system sort through any potential fraud issues and return an accurate and correct result on the election. It's always better to get information like this out there, even if it results in people reacting in bad ways.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

freedom is good, the government having more control of health care is bad, health care can't be a human right because goods and services aren't a human right, etc. Some of it is the impact it's had on small business, personal choice of health plans, etc. I think there's a lot of factors there.

lol the people who love freedom so much just had their President say he wouldn't commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses. Trump has expanded government health coverage by heavily regulating what they are forced to cover during the pandemic. Signed a bill that would provide billions in government health services to Americans.

Absolutely none of the shit you mentioned matter to his voters. Stop the dumb charade.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There's a lot of truth in this. The missing part is that a lot of those who believe that health care is only for those who can afford it (and other similar mindsets) isn't just about **** those who can't afford it. There's also the belief that such an approach is better for everyone by not encouraging dependency on the government.

All those people shut the fuck up real quick when he signed the CARES Act and pushed a bunch of executive orders to provide government health care to people. Almost like this is a completely bullshit reason they voted for him.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

lol the people who love freedom so much just had their President say he wouldn't commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses. Trump has expanded government health coverage by heavily regulating what they are forced to cover during the pandemic. Signed a bill that would provide billions in government health services to Americans.

Absolutely none of the shit you mentioned matter to his voters. Stop the dumb charade.

It's not a charade. Stop assuming motivations and thoughts of other people whose minds you can't read.

Oh, and btw the original question here was about why people want to get rid of ACA, not about why people support Trump. Nowhere did I say ACA is a major reason why people voted for him. Go back to what I said about that not being policy-based and more about the opposition than what they are actually for. This is a totally different question. Not to mention that most of the country agrees that what you do during a pandemic is not the same as what you do during normal times, etc.

I get that it's a lot more comfortable to think of the opposition as a cross being Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, pure evil incarnate. Reality is always more complex than that.

[RainMaker]

It is a charade. I'm showing you all these things you claim these people are for is bullshit. They don't really care about any of it.

There was no backlash from Republicans on what Trump just did with health care. Why is this if they truly don't want the government involved in helping uninsured people? Where are these brave patriots you speak of?

[JPhillips]

The rest of the answer is even worse.

JUST IN: Asked if he'd "commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferral of power after the election," Pres. Trump says, "Well, we're going to have to see what happens." https://t.co/M5slGfPrE2 pic.twitter.com/1g1xuzqeLt

— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) September 23, 2020

[Brian Swartz]

It's also worth pointing out again that this isn't a game of absolutes. Given the dominant binary lesser-of-two-evils mindset, which I remind everyone is endorsed by most posters on this forum, it's not as if there was/is choice for small-government types between Trump and and an arch-conservative. Conservatism wasn't on the ballot in 2016 and isn't there in 2020. So if you're somebody who thinks that way, your choice is between bad and worse on those issues. You're picking Trump over Clinton or Biden doesn't mean you like what Trump says on health care or whatever. It means only that you think you're going to get a less-bad result from him.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm showing you all these things you claim these people are for is bullshit. They don't really care about any of it.

No you're not. You're setting up an absolutist standard which is not the way things work in modern politics for better or worse. I never said anything about 'brave patriots'. If you want to address yourself to what I've actually said instead of mashing things together from different parts of the discussion in a distortionist fashion and now moving into flat-out making things up, I'm all for that.

[Ksyrup]

Good God, Trump is asked what he wants to say to the country about the Breonna Taylor decision and he says I have to take an emergency phone call and walks out. He's not even pretending anymore. This, after refusing to commit to a peaceful transition if he loses.

Everything is totally normal!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

No you're not. You're setting up an absolutist standard which is not the way things work in modern politics for better or worse. I never said anything about 'brave patriots'. If you want to address yourself to what I've actually said instead of mashing things together from different parts of the discussion in a distortionist fashion and now moving into flat-out making things up, I'm all for that.

You literally gave an explanation for why people would vote for him because of a stance on health care that he contradicted just a few months back.

If you truly believe that people voted for him because he would keep government out of health care, where are these people who should be irate now?

[Ksyrup]

Trump and the GOP ran on the "get rid of Obamacare" plank and then won the presidency and both houses of Congress and did nothing in 2017-18, unless you count Trump's "We're going to have a beautiful healthcare plan with coverage for pre-existing conditions at no cost to anyone, plus I may throw in gold-plated toilet seats for everyone with the money leftover that we save after dismantling Obamacare" BS.

The GOP's entire "plan" was not a healthcare plan but an election plan - Repeal with absolutely nothing to replace it with, so they couldn't repeal.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You literally gave an explanation for why people would vote for him because of a stance on health care that he contradicted just a few months back.

No, I did not. Lathum asked why people wanted to remove the ACA. That's the question I answered. I made no statement about how much this factors into Trump's support. On that, I refer you to my more recent post about the comparison between Trump and Biden/Clinton, but more importantly my still-ignored statements on where I think the evidence shows Trump's support primarily comes from.

[Ksyrup]

I hope to hell tonight's press conference is plastered all over the news. This crap cannot stand. But damn if this ain't the truth...

"On the one hand, Trump vows to ignore election results unless we get rid of "the ballots." On the other, Biden stuttered." - The American media, obsessed with its "on one hand, on the other hand" approach that they will only regret when Trump's thugs are storming their offices.

— Kurt Eichenwald (@kurteichenwald) September 23, 2020

[tarcone]

Missouri Governor Parsons and the first lady test positive. Ironic.

[Lathum]

It amazes me people are so blind they can't see Trumps whole strategy is to try and invalid an election he already knows he is going to lose.

[Jas_lov]

And the Supreme Court is going to rule 5-4 to stop counting the ballots after he declares victory on election night. Thomas, Alito and the 3 Trump appointees. Robert's can't save us anymore.

[JPhillips]

I actually think he's not going to get the court to do that. He'll have 3 votes, probably, but I'm not sure about 4 and 5.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, he'll have Alito, Thomas, and this 3rd appointee. Maybe Kavanaugh. But I don't see Gorsuch going for that at all.

I'm not denying that's what he's banking on. I just don't think he'll be successful.

[RainMaker]

At that point you're not really living in any sort of democracy so who cares?

[JPhillips]

I think the idea of state legislators appointing electors is a bigger issue. The whole party is a Trump cult and I could easily see a couple of states doing that because of "voter fraud."

[albionmoonlight]

Maybe the real impressive accomplishment is that we've managed to get by for 200+ years with only two elections where "the guy who got the most electoral votes gets to be President" was an issue--even though we've had all of these anti-democratic mechanisms in place the whole time. (Bush/Gore and Tilden/Hayes).

It won't happen, but it sure would be awesome to have an omnibus amendment that fixed a lot of these issues that Dear Leader is bringing to the surface.

[cuervo72]

Nah, who needs regulations?

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

At that point you're not really living in any sort of democracy so who cares?

Correct, and that's a good thing. We live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

In a pure democracy, laws are made directly by the voting majority leaving the rights of the minority largely unprotected. In a republic, laws are made by representatives chosen by the people and must comply with a constitution that specifically protects the rights of the minority from the will of the majority.

[Butter]

Yeah, we all know this is not a pure democracy, so I don't know if you think that's some stunning insight, but it isn't.

Right now what's happening is the rights of the majority are being infringed by the will of the minority. Is that what the Constitution is supposed to protect?

[larrymcg421]

The US is a democracy. It is a representative democracy. No one argued it was a direct democracy, so I'm not sure what the point of your post was, unless you thought you were actually being insightful with your attempt at a 3rd grade civics lesson as taught by Newt Gingrich..

[JPhillips]

But if we upgrade to a democracy I'll get another purple card slot.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But if we upgrade to a democracy I'll get another purple card slot.

I love this so much. Will you be my internet best friend?

[thesloppy]

WaPo released what I think is a pretty fair breakdown on Trump's race record:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...49c_story.html

[BYU 14]

This line sums up his true feelings for black Americans perfectly

"Trump regretted reducing prison sentences when it didn’t produce a spike in Black voter support."

It was never about anyone but him which is why the momentum of his justice reform quickly subsided as soon as he realized it would hurt him with his base more than it would help him with a group he truly couldn't give 2 shits about.

[Ksyrup]

I hope to hell this cop is ID'd and fired. He's not even riding his bike, he purposely walks it over the dude's head/neck! And appears to push down on the back wheel as it goes over.

The police at the #seattleprotests just ran over an injured mans head with their bikes. @SeattlePD is this how you train your officers? pic.twitter.com/c4e146tsmi

— Martin Banks (@WarlockBranis) September 24, 2020

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

This line sums up his true feelings for black Americans perfectly

"Trump regretted reducing prison sentences when it didn’t produce a spike in Black voter support."

It was never about anyone but him which is why the momentum of his justice reform quickly subsided as soon as he realized it would hurt him with his base more than it would help him with a group he truly couldn't give 2 shits about.

That said, it's a really good law. His motivations might have been cynical, but the result has been lots and lots of guys spending a lot less time in prison than they would have otherwise.

[GrantDawg]

Yeah, it has been one of the few things he has done right. Of course, there is still more to be done in that area as well.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

That said, it's a really good law. His motivations might have been cynical, but the result has been lots and lots of guys spending a lot less time in prison than they would have otherwise.

And I totally agree with that, just a shame his intent was not honorable. Also doesn't seem like it will advance any further than it has.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And it'll be interesting to see how $100mil of Bloomberg money changes things in Florida as well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/23/polit...hts/index.html

Here is what a state representative said when the State Legislature passed the bill that required the debts be paid.

Republican State Rep. James Grant, who sponsored a House version of the bill, told CNN that comparing the bill to a poll tax was "insanity." He called the bill "expressly consistent" with Amendment 4 and said that he expects DeSantis to sign it.

"I think the governor understands that we should provide as much flexibility and opportunity for people to pay their debt to society, which this bill does," Grant said. "But it's not going to pretend that debt that exists is no longer existing."

The debt will be paid off, Rep. Grant. It will no longer exists. It is almost like the problem was not the financial debt in the first place.

[JPhillips]

Until they take voting away from people late on their taxes or other fees the objective is crystal clear.

[RainMaker]

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/lo...245926935.html

[Edward64]

Good for you McConnell.

McConnell pushes back on Trump: 'There will be an orderly transition' | TheHill

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said on Thursday that there would be an "orderly" transition of power in 2021, after President Trump refused to commit to a peaceful handoff of power if he loses in November.

"The winner of the November 3rd election will be inaugurated on January 20th. There will be an orderly transition just as there has been every four years since 1792," McConnell said in a tweet.
:
:
The comment from McConnell, while not directly criticizing Trump, is notable because the tight-lipped GOP leader frequently refuses to weigh in on the president's remarks, even when they spark backlash from members of his caucus.

Other GOP senators predicted on Thursday that there would be a peaceful transition of power, though many did not directly criticize Trump for his remarks.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Good for you McConnell.

McConnell pushes back on Trump: 'There will be an orderly transition' | TheHill

I don't think Trump has the support in Washington he believes he does. If he loses the election and tries to cause problems he's going to find out really fast most Congressional GOP only supported him as a GOP president.

I've said McConnell would likely give up the Presidency to someone like Biden if it means he keeps Senate control. I think if he gets this justice pushed through he won't even be too concerned about that. Give him his justice and get Trump out of Washington and he probably couldn't be happier.

[JPhillips]

The winner of the November 3rd election will be inaugurated on January 20th.

This is so much less than what it might appear to be. He's leaving room for a scenario where Trump could be winning on election night and then the counting is stopped by the courts. He certainly isn't saying that all the votes will be counted.