Star Wars: Episode VII

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Spoiler

Didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan sort of do the same thing? I mean one was chilling out in the swamps of Dagobah and the other being some hermit on Tatooine while Vader and Palpatine were kicking ass all over the galaxy. Seems like the Jedi have a history of this sort of behaviour.

Spoiler

But they were in hiding because the Empire had total control and would kill them on sight. You had the sense that Luke could still operate out of Republic Space and be safe from the First Order.

Luke's a hero. But he has a major flaw, which is that he's petulant and whiny. Running off to pout sort of fits the guy who pitched a fit because he wanted to go to Toshi Station.

[Kodos]

While we're asking questions, how come Leia never bothered to learn the Force? I'm sure Luke could have shown her some things besides how to kiss.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Spoiler

It could be a kind of buddhist aspect of being a jedi: that being a jedi is less about fighting against evil and more just about being a good individual, without necessarily getting involved in the conflicts of others or prosthelytizing.

Uhhh...

Spoiler

There is nothing in the series to indicate that and in fact it's just the opposite. How many Jedis went off into hermit-tude during the Old Republic?

[Logan]

I can't believe that

Spoiler

the movie came out 5 days ago.

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Loved it, the house was packed. Forgot how fun it can it is to be part of a packed house, all the laughter and the yelling. It was great, felt like a kid watching Episode V again for the first time in the theater all those years ago. Thanks JJ.

[NobodyHere]

I was fond of the movie and all but did anyone think the John William music was kind of lackluster?

Even after Episode 1 I was humming Duel of the Fates but after The Force Awakens there was nothing

I'm still interested in how episodes 8 and 9 turns out though.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by A-Husker-4-Life

Loved it, the house was packed. Forgot how fun it can it is to be part of a packed house, all the laughter and the yelling. It was great, felt like a kid watching Episode V again for the first time in the theater all those years ago. Thanks JJ.

I saw it yesterday and this is where I'm at. I'll dissect it fully on my home-theater, but for now, I was in it for the show and the fun and enjoyed the cheering and clapping from the crowd. It was really cool to be in a packed theater with people, who apparently, were as excited as I was to watch it.

[murrayyyyy]

Not a Star Wars fan but saw it in D-Box last night. Was a cool experience with the chair moving for about 80% of the movie.

Can someone answer this question? What the hell happened to lightsabers? Didn't it make Obi-won disappear with one blow? Didn't it cut off Luke's hand? Now it's a freaking butter knife.

Spoiler

I mean the black guy has it and it kills a stormtrooper in 0.1 seconds. Ren sticks it in Han for a while and we get the long dramatic death scene. Black guy gets hit in the back with the same one (I thought) and he just falls to the ground and isn't even dead. Then the bad guy gets hit in da' face with it by the girl and it's a scratch on his face. What the hell?!?! Did the dark side spend all their money on a bigger death star and can't afford strong lightsabers? I mean Vader's did a ton of damage and this new one is a bee sting.

[Dutch]

Spoiler

I was always under the impression that the lightsabers were just symbolic for how strong or weak the users of them were. Both parties were able to control the damage done. Obi-Wan *wanted* to be struck down by Darth Vader. Darth Vader *wanted* to permanently harm Luke but not kill him. Luke wanted to beat the shit out of Darth Vader...but didn't really want to kill him. Etc...etc...it's more about the "hokey ancient religion" versus the D20 roll...I guess.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Spoiler

I was always under the impression that the lightsabers were just symbolic for how strong or weak the users of them were. Both parties were able to control the damage done. Obi-Wan *wanted* to be struck down by Darth Vader. Darth Vader *wanted* to permanently harm Luke but not kill him. Luke wanted to beat the shit out of Darth Vader...but didn't really want to kill him. Etc...etc...it's more about the "hokey ancient religion" versus the D20 roll...I guess.

Spoiler

so Ren really wanted to kill his father but was passive about the black guy trying to kill him? Also didn't Luke have to go somewhere for a crystal for his lightsaber? Or can multiple people use the same one? Sorry but it's the one thing that really bothered me since every single movie has this weapon.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Spoiler

so Ren really wanted to kill his father but was passive about the black guy trying to kill him? Also didn't Luke have to go somewhere for a crystal for his lightsaber? Or can multiple people use the same one? Sorry but it's the one thing that really bothered me since every single movie has this weapon.

Spoiler

Good questions and concerns. Honestly, it beats the shit out of me. I just play along.

[sabotai]

Spoiler

Kylo Ren only caught Finn with the tip of his lightsaber when he slashed his back, so it wasn't a fatal blow.

[BishopMVP]

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Although

Spoiler

as someone who avoided them easily, Han Solo's death is the only one that I would've been annoyed to know, and even that had zero shock value by the time it happened. The Sith Lord being Han/Leia's son? They telegraphed that one early on. Luke actually showing up at the end? That's the point of the movie.

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I enjoyed it a lot more than I did the prequels; definitely think it captured the spirit of the originals much better.

The new characters were so impressive that at times I felt the presence of the old characters kind of got in their way (which is a good thing).

I was a little disappointed with the all the repetition in story. I mean, I know the master/apprentice dynamic and the internal struggle between light and dark side is going to have to be there. But I can't believe there's no other way to tell these stories without the underdog republic rising up to defeat the empire and their newest weapon of mass destruction (now on version 3.0).

Overall, very good execution of a disappointing story. I did enjoy it overall

This nails it for me. Very enjoyable, probably like 8/10 on that scale, and a really good setup as the initial part of a trilogy, but it really felt like they were playing Mad Libs with the original trilogy at times. "Instead of the main Sith Lord being a main character's father, let's have him be a son!" "Instead of a scruffy male nerfherder from a desert outpost who's secretly a Jedi, let's make it a female!" "Ruggedly handsome reluctant hero with a sketchy backstory and initial motives who's left for dead only to assuredly be reunited with the main female love interest? Uhh, let's make him black this time!" (Okay the stormtrooper background was a nice touch. ) Some of it's just unavoidable - any desert planet will be compared to Tatooine, any ice planet to Hoth - but it's like you add in a new Wedge Antilles, a new Grand Moff Tarkin, a new Emperor, have a laser blow up 5 planets instead of 1, etc and it's less similarities and more literally working off the same template.

I know it's weird because of 4/5/6, then 1/2/3, then 7/8/9 ordering, but the Death Star thing is the ending in 4/6/7 - that's 3 times in 20? 30? years! I think it's literally been less time in their world between A New Hope and this one than there was between the actual movies were released! (And a whole bunch of people on this planet can tell you exactly how the Death Star was blown up twice in a fictional movie here - but apparently no one there does?)

Originally Posted by sabotai

As far as Rey being Luke's daughter, during Rey's flashbacks there was a brief scene of a little girl yelling "come back" to a ship flying away. I'd imagine that was Rey and Luke was flying away. (Edit: Was looking at a thread on Reddit and read that someone said "Rey" to the little girl during that scene. I missed that.)

God, I hope not, although they've been going with the obvious answer for a while now. Agreed with whoever said that's unforgivable if it's Luke. Even in the most charitable scenario where her parent(s) were trying to hide her, and there's some deleted scene where it shows that old jedi? was watching over her you seem to have enough planets in this galaxy you could find your 5y/o daughter a nice boring anonymous middle-class life somewhere instead of being somewhere between a subsistence scavenger and a slave. Finding someone to watch over her who also doesn't bring Kylo Ren to the village because he's digging up old maps and still in contact with the Rebel Alliance might help too...

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I'm torn on Adam Driver. I both liked his portrayal, and didn't for pretty much the same reasons. He essentially did the whiny, Hayden Christiansen thing, but he seemed to elevate it so that it worked, but still seemed kind of annoying. Also, I'm not sure his line delivery works well for something like Star Wars. His speech pattern is a bit too rapid fire and works much better in indie movies... but I still really liked it/hated it while it was going on.

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah Driver was a gigantic disappointment for me and my girlfriend. Once he took the mask off I was like what is Andrew Lloyd Webers son in this. Maybe if they didn't so quickly reveal his face it might of kept him menacing. I hope he gets all Dark Force going forward.

It's weird... at the start with the mask on he still had the menacing mystique, and when he initially took it off and started acting like an emo teenager I hated it, but it started to grow on me as actual character development. Having a Darth Vader who everyone thinks is a real badass but is really an incredibly insecure pawn of the Emperor? I like that more than the lack of reasons we ever really felt for why Vader would be following the Emperor's lead in the initial trilogy.

However, if the scene where he kills Han was supposed to be the huge turning point for the character fully embracing the dark side or growing in to a man it fell pretty flat for me.

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Can someone answer this question? What the hell happened to lightsabers? Didn't it make Obi-won disappear with one blow? Didn't it cut off Luke's hand? Now it's a freaking butter knife.

Maybe it's the new lower wattage laws The Empire passed, similar to our low-watt light bulbs or low-flow toilets. Those guys really did a lot of good for the environment. At least on the planets they aren't blowing up to... send a message? (Considering we went from one Alderaan being blown up for specific reasons, these seemed kinda like overkill and very, very pre-emptive )

But yeah, for something with as rich and deep a universe as Star Wars the movies have some pretty big gaping holes. You built this Death Star in to a planet, and you still couldn't figure out a way to cover up the most integral part this time?!?! Or you have a laser that destroyed 5 whole planets, but you get beat by 10 X-Wing Fighters? You're literally sucking all the energy out of a star in the sky, maybe scramble all your jets just in case. (I can suspend disbelief and buy that a small group of people can sneak around a base, but they didn't waltz up to the front door and start blasting for the same reason 10-12 X-Wing's shouldn't have a chance in hell there once they lose the element of surprise.) And I'm supposed to buy the rebel alliance as a viable challenge to anyone when their entire air force is 1/6th of what fits on a single US Aircraft carrier? Sometimes the universe of populated planets is vast, and sometimes it's the same people randomly bumping into each other! Sometimes the Empire/New Order is a massive, galaxy wide overlord, and sometimes the Rebel Alliance that keeps giving them fits looks like it'd have trouble invading Liechtenstein. I guess what I'm saying is I don't think they put Tolkien/George R.R. Martin levels of thinking into the details here.

[EagleFan]

Seriously bugging my friend who is a serious Star Wars fanatic about all my little nitpicks about the movie. As a whole the movie was entertaining but it was a typical Disney thing and just like the video game, a lot of flash but if you start pealing back the layers you start to see that there isn't a lot there.

It was basically the first move with a new background and a bunch of cameos.

The awesome might of the empire could only shoot accurately when slaughtering innocent civilians.

The empire continues to have the same design flaw in all of their super weapons.

Convenient that the waste management engineer also had full knowledge of the base's defenses.

How did Po got blown out of his jacket in the crash and land in a desert, not to be seen anywhere in sight? Or did he just walk away from the crash, leaving his jacket behind and not even bother to look for the black man? Racist bastard!

Is Rey a very fast learner or was Luke just part of the remedial class when it came to the force? She seemed to pick it up in a few minutes while in captivity with no clue about any of it instead of several attempts while being held up in a forest with a jedi master.

They happen to find the millennium falcon as they are running away? Then happen to run into Han Solo while in space? The universe is much smaller than I thought.

WTF Luke? Your sister and ex brother in law are in serious trouble and you are standing on an island somewhere. Maybe Han Solo doesn't have to die if you get off your ass and do something.


Okay, I am done.


Oh, one thing, not a nitpick but something that I chuckled at in my head. When Fin was standing in front of the wreckage and it suddenly sunk into the ground and blew up... he doesn't even flinch but in my head I seriously wanted to see him say... "WHAT THE F***!!!!"

[Edward64]

Me thinks you guys are over analyzing this a little.

(But if I was the rebellion, I would have sent Hans and Fin in with a portable nuke).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

They happen to find the millennium falcon as they are running away? Then happen to run into Han Solo while in space? The universe is much smaller than I thought.

Han said they found them because there was a tracker beacon in the Falcon (that presumably activated when they started flying it). That's also why they were in the cantina, trying to trade the ship for a clean one because presumably the New World Order was also tracking it. Which opens up a whole nother can of worms about why you're flying to a secluded area to look for a trade instead of going to a populated city and blending in there, but whatever. So, uh, one down

[molson]

Star Wars really has never been science fiction, it's more like an adventure movie that happens to be set in this this weird galaxy, so I've always been plenty content to to just fill in any little plot gap with, "it's the force or something".

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by molson

Star Wars really has never been science fiction, it's more like an adventure movie that happens to be set in this this weird galaxy, so I've always been plenty content to to just fill in any little plot gap with, "it's the force or something".

I agree. Star Wars has always had that campy, not taking itself too seriously attitude. Great characters, fun adventures, some twists. I think the mistake of episode I was they tried to slow it down and give us a look at the inter-workings of everything (trade negotiations, etc) and it failed.

[stevew]

A stand alone Palpatine movie/trilogy would be great.

[Mota]

In the Prequel trilogy, Anakin was the one that was supposed to bring balance to the Force. He did, but pretty much had to tear down the world first.

I think that Luke knew that Rey is the one that is supposed to bring balance this time, that if he tried anything, it would cause greater ripples. So he pulled a Yoda, disapeared and waited for her to come to him when she was ready. It was meant to be.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Me thinks you guys are over analyzing this a little.

Or rather, the plot holes are so obvious you could drive multiple trucks through without even trying .

[spleen1015]

As far as the light sabers go, I took it as Finn & Kylo Ren took glancing blows, not full 'slices', kind of like getting cut with the tip of a sword.

Han Solo was stabbed through the chest.

Rey can only be Luke's daughter. He put her there because he views himself as a failure for Kylo Ren turning to the Darkside and he wants to protect her. It is flimsy but it is going to be something like that, IMO.

We'll likely find out who her mother is in 8.

JJ was quoted sometime before Christmas that he doesn't believe in Director's Cuts, so I'm frustrated that this is the only version of the movie we will see. Hopefully Disney tries to cash in somehow because I want to see the deleted footage.

[SlyBelle1]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Rey can only be Luke's daughter. He put her there because he views himself as a failure for Kylo Ren turning to the Darkside and he wants to protect her. It is flimsy but it is going to be something like that, IMO.

.

Whether Luke is Rey's father is possible (although I am not sure at this point), I don't believe Luke put Rey on that planet.....my best guess is that Kylo actually put her on the planet. During the dream sequence you see Kylo kill a would-be killer of Rey so he was protecting her for some reason and I would assume Kylo was the last one to see her at that point. Plus, when Rey is crying as the ship leaves the planet, the person holding her hand appears to be the alien/monster (person who she trades food for spare parts)....I can't imagine that if Luke indeed dropped her off the planet himself, he would entrust the well-being of his daughter to him, versus someone else on the planet. Kylo on the other hand....that would be exactly the type of person I could see him leaving a child with

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

JJ was quoted sometime before Christmas that he doesn't believe in Director's Cuts, so I'm frustrated that this is the only version of the movie we will see. Hopefully Disney tries to cash in somehow because I want to see the deleted footage.

Why? If there are decent deleted scenes in sure they'll show up on DVD* eventually. As far as I know there was no animosity between Abrams and the studio, or the MPAA, or whomever, so I'm guessing he didn't shoot a lot of other scenes.

* - is DVD still the right term? Now that people are basically streaming everything what term should we use?

Originally Posted by SlyBelle1

Whether Luke is Rey's father is possible (although I am not sure at this point), I don't believe Luke put Rey on that planet.....my best guess is that Kylo actually put her on the planet. During the dream sequence you see Kylo kill a would-be killer of Rey so he was protecting her for some reason and I would assume Kylo was the last one to see her at that point. Plus, when Rey is crying as the ship leaves the planet, the person holding her hand appears to be the alien/monster (person who she trades food for spare parts)....I can't imagine that if Luke indeed dropped her off the planet himself, he would entrust the well-being of his daughter to him, versus someone else on the planet. Kylo on the other hand....that would be exactly the type of person I could see him leaving a child with

A: The person who dropped her off wanted her to be happy, in which case there were much better options
B: The person who dropped her off wanted her to suffer, or knew she was potentially incredibly dangerous but for some reason couldn't just kill her?
C: We get a really unsatisfying post-facto explanation that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Take your best guess. I know my mine.

[Peregrine]

I had a lot of issues with this movie - especially how most of the story just copied stuff in the original trilogy. Seriously disappointed that they couldn't come up with anything but a bland rehash of what came before. It was entertaining at least.

[jeff061]

Is Rey a very fast learner or was Luke just part of the remedial class when it came to the force? She seemed to pick it up in a few minutes while in captivity with no clue about any of it instead of several attempts while being held up in a forest with a jedi master.

This is easily what bugged me most about the movie. Other than that it was a popcorn ABC action flick with zero plot and a weak/flimsy antagonist (maybe he'll get better in the sequels). I did like most of the new characters and look forward to seeing them develop. Overall it's fun to watch, but I think it's being vastly overrated.

I thought Star Trek was significantly better.

[jeff061]

Also the character CGI sucked hard. If you can't pull off believable CGI, stick with costumes. That goes for all movies, but I was surprised Star Wars failed so hard on this front.

[Ryche]

One problem with Luke being Rey's father, Jedi are pretty much forbidden from falling in love and having children. That was one of the big pieces of Vader's downfall.

I think she definitely could have been a Jedi student, maybe his most promising, that he chose to hide when his academy fell.

Edit:
But looking at what happened in the books, nevermind. Luke was married and had a son, so they very well could have just changed his son into a daughter.

[Peregrine]

Did anyone else think that once they completed Luke's map at the end that it set up what would be a completely awesome second movie? They would follow the map through all kinds of adventures on alien worlds, shooting it out with the First Order as they went- would be really cool.

But no, they just got there in five minutes.

[NobodyHere]

So does anyone have an opinion of Rian Johnson? He's the guy directing/writing Episode 8 and it seems the only major movie he's directed was Looper (which I haven't seen). Also he directed a couple of Breaking Bad episodes.

[Peregrine]

Looper was pretty good.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Did anyone else think that once they completed Luke's map at the end that it set up what would be a completely awesome second movie? They would follow the map through all kinds of adventures on alien worlds, shooting it out with the First Order as they went- would be really cool.

But no, they just got there in five minutes.

This was pretty much my problem with the whole movie. Everything just happens, happens and happens. I get that they didn't want to draw it out and fill it with political mumbo jumbo like the last three, but some deeper exposition would have been nice. They literally show us the galaxy destroying weapon 30 seconds before they use it. I didn't dislike it anywhere near as much as I hated Episode 1, but I got the same sinking feeling as I did when I watched that as soon as I realized this was just going to be a "find the weak spot in the baddies big weapon" ending. I mean really?

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Looper was pretty good.

I really wanted to love Looper, and while watching it, I did. Until they got to the diner. The rest of the movie sucked balls, in my opinion.

[Groundhog]

I'm not a huge Star Wars guy (I was a bit too young when it came out originally), but I loved episode 7. I watched the original trilogy over the past week, and this really felt to me like a modern remake/reboot of episode 4 with enough references to please old timers, which was fine by me.

The whole 'find Luke in 5 seconds' thing, well, finding him (the map) was the whole point of the movie. Travel seems very fast and problem-free if you know where you are going. I imagine episode 8 will be Skywalker training up Rey, ala Yoda/Skywalker in episode 5.

[stevew]

Rian Johnson directed 3 of the best episodes of Breaking Bad including Ozymandias, which is regarded as the best probably

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Did anyone else think that once they completed Luke's map at the end that it set up what would be a completely awesome second movie? They would follow the map through all kinds of adventures on alien worlds, shooting it out with the First Order as they went- would be really cool.

But no, they just got there in five minutes.

Actually I'd have loved if if that's how they did the second half of The Force Awakens rather than DeathStar Mark 3 - a race to find Luke. Would have been far more entertaining, IMO, and less eye rolling. Could have even kept the light saber battle in the snow (but with Kylo Ren winning over Rey... because he's had knowledge of the force for like 20 years while Rey had it for like a week, only to have Chewwie bail her out).

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Could have even kept the light saber battle in the snow (but with Kylo Ren winning over Rey... because he's had knowledge of the force for like 20 years while Rey had it for like a week, only to have Chewwie bail her out).

Wait would that be realistic? Instead let's have him lose lightsaber battles to non-Jedi who just pick up the saber, or untrained students who magically have force powers.

My main complaint in that battle was when she has him down on the ground and seems to clearly want to kill him - instead of it being a classic "which side of the force does she choose" moment they just do some pathetic deus ex machina so she doesn't have to decide. Typical of the dumbing down in this whole movie to me.

[stevew]

She was basically using dark side fighting techniques IMO. Reminded me a lot of palpitine's battle with Yoda.

Someone described it as she was able to reverse engineer the force from her experience with Ren. I kinda buy that explanation.

My money is on her going bad and maybe even killing Luke if he's not her father. Speculation had her being Obi Wan's granddaughter before this filmed.

[jeff061]

If she goes bad that would be great. But I don't think they are taking any risks with this series.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Wait would that be realistic? Instead let's have him lose lightsaber battles to non-Jedi who just pick up the saber, or untrained students who magically have force powers.

I even thought of a better ending than Chewwie bailing out Rey on a lightsaber battle to find Luke. Have the battle on the planet right before where Luke's map said he'd be - both Rey and Ren fighting to get their hands on the last puzzle piece. Ren force calls Luke's lightsaber, then it goes away from him, and right past Rey, who thinks that she steered it away from Ren... right into the hands of Luke himself who says something like "I think this is mine" before force Ren away and mentioning that he arrived on that planet because he felt the disturbance in the force from two big force users so close by to the planet where he was.

[Brian Swartz]

This thread shows how out of touch I am with modern society(one aspect of it anyway). I think it was equally as bad as the prequels, probably a little worse, though in different ways. For the life of me I can't digest how people come to think of this as a good Star Wars movie. I'm glad those of you enjoyed it did, but wow ... I really liked some stuff in it, but there was way too much bad. I'm firmly in the disappointed camp. *sigh*

[Wolfpack]

I finally got around to watching this with my two older daughters this afternoon so I can now finally read this thread in peace.

While I did think it was a pretty good movie, I do agree with most of the criticisms I see in this thread now. A lot of "isn't that convenient?" events especially at the start, the borrowing of already done concepts from prior SW movies, the newbie who somehow matches a decades long force-user in abilities and strength, the rather thin background for Fin, etc. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to escape the shadow of the original trilogy, especially the first movie.

Having said that, my girls loved it (it was their first big screen experience with Star Wars since they weren't really around for the prequels).

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

Having said that, my girls loved it (it was their first big screen experience with Star Wars since they weren't really around for the prequels).

^ this here is the point, really. This film was intended to relaunch the Star Wars brand, and you'd have to say it was a massive success at that. There were moments targeted at long-time fans, but in all I felt like it was an attempt to make an 'Episode 4' for the next generation of Star Wars fans.

I liked it because it wasn't the convoluted, over-glossy mess that the prequels were - the plot was every bit as simple and straightforward as the plot of any of the original 3, with a lot of good, Star Warsy dialogue that didn't feel like an attempt to cram worldbuilding into every sentence like the prequels. And they managed to create two very likable stars in about 30 mins of screen time.

After watching 4-5-6 over the past couple of weeks again, I think nostalgia flavours a lot of folks memories of these films, too. Ep 7 was not a Kurosawa film, but none of the originals were either. It was a well-shot, action-oriented Space Opera set in an interesting fictional universe. I don't think any Star Wars film has reached a level beyond that (...and some of them, much much below it...).

[JAG]

I think nostalgia flavours a lot of folks memories of these films

That was the same thought I had while reading this thread. Some people are being pretty critical of a film that I felt like was supposed to just be fun and not necessarily stand up to scrutiny. You could nitpick the heck out of Episode IV for example, but that's missing what made the film great. I think you can argue that there was not a lot of risk-taking with this movie compared with IV but that's also about where the franchise is now vs. then.

My opinion, I liked the movie. It felt more like a Star Wars movie than the prequels did. The humor was good throughout, characters were well done. My girls kind of liked it, wife liked it more than me. My only significant complaint is I would've preferred something other than Death Star 3.0 as others have said.

Can I ask, what does everyone hate about Episode 3? I get that 1+2 are pretty lousy movies. 3 has some cringe-worthy and head-shaking parts, but overall I thought it was pretty good.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

^ this here is the point, really. This film was intended to relaunch the Star Wars brand, and you'd have to say it was a massive success at that. There were moments targeted at long-time fans, but in all I felt like it was an attempt to make an 'Episode 4' for the next generation of Star Wars fans.

I liked it because it wasn't the convoluted, over-glossy mess that the prequels were - the plot was every bit as simple and straightforward as the plot of any of the original 3, with a lot of good, Star Warsy dialogue that didn't feel like an attempt to cram worldbuilding into every sentence like the prequels. And they managed to create two very likable stars in about 30 mins of screen time.

After watching 4-5-6 over the past couple of weeks again, I think nostalgia flavours a lot of folks memories of these films, too. Ep 7 was not a Kurosawa film, but none of the originals were either. It was a well-shot, action-oriented Space Opera set in an interesting fictional universe. I don't think any Star Wars film has reached a level beyond that (...and some of them, much much below it...).

Pretty much agreed here.

I have to say, I find it endlessly fascinating how much time is spent in this movie, and the original three, just running around and hiding in hallways. So jarringly low-tech.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JAG

That was the same thought I had while reading this thread. Some people are being pretty critical of a film that I felt like was supposed to just be fun and not necessarily stand up to scrutiny. You could nitpick the heck out of Episode IV for example, but that's missing what made the film great.

Sure, there are weak parts in Episode IV and at a certain point, very little in the SW universe stands up to a high enough level of scrutiny. That isn't really the point though, at least to me. There are too many things in Ep. 7 that are just a big giant slap in the face, and a fun, straightforward movie doesn't require any of them. Most have already been mentioned here, but:

** Rehashing the Ep. IV plot line to the degree that was done.
** Being a Jedi doesn't require training anymore apparently, which spits on Luke's entire character arc from 4-6, esp. the iconic Dagobah training stuff. Heck, you don't even have to be force-sensitive to use a lightsaber effectively now(see: Finn).

Those are the big ones, which essentially turn the movie into a parody of the SW universe. Then you throw in things like KR's 'handled saber' which has all the impression of trying to reinvent the wheel into a square shape, far inferior character interaction/dialogue as compared to 4-6, and so on -- there are some fine points to be sure. For example, I like Rey's character in general as much as any in any movie I can remember. Ever. Ridley's acting was fantastic for the role IMO. For that reason I see a great deal of potential(that will probably be unrealized, but still) going forward. But I regard the bullet points above as being in the obviously absurd/unforgivable category. I don't know how one gets to a point where they are even vaguely tolerable, either from a director or fan standpoint. Esp. when there was so much potential to take the franchise in a more interesting direction with the Empire gone. From those who know the various novels from the period better than I do, I understand this was done to some extent in the writing that's out there, but instead we get Rebellion vs. Empire again without the slightest attempt to do anything but a completely unconvincing replay. YMMV, but I don't think it's nitpicking. I like A New Hope quite a bit, but I have the DVD. If I want to watch it again, I can do that. Rey and the interesting element of Finn being a stormtrooper are the only reasons for me not to -- there are about a thousand other different things that could have done I would have been totally fine with and applauded.

.02

[molson]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I don't know how one gets to a point where they are even vaguely tolerable, either from a director or fan standpoint.

You don't understand how someone could even "tolerate" the movie?

Geez, I'm glad I don't watch movies the same way some posters here do. I don't think I'd ever go to the movies if there was even a 20% chance I'd have a negative experience I couldn't even tolerate. But I'm pretty forgiving of all entertainment I consume, I'd be a terrible critic. If I might hate something, I'm not going to waste my time with it.

[Brian Swartz]

No, I don't understand it as a tolerable decision. For example, as one not meant to be singled out but just to show the mindset:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Very enjoyable, probably like 8/10 on that scale, and a really good setup as the initial part of a trilogy, ... it's like you add in a new Wedge Antilles, a new Grand Moff Tarkin, a new Emperor, have a laser blow up 5 planets instead of 1, etc and it's less similarities and more literally working off the same template.

Putting those two together just results in massive cognitive dissonance for me.

Edit to add:

Originally Posted by JAG

Can I ask, what does everyone hate about Episode 3? I get that 1+2 are pretty lousy movies. 3 has some cringe-worthy and head-shaking parts, but overall I thought it was pretty good.

I don't think the prequels are nearly as bad as most seem to. I like Ep. 3 and I thought I was decent also. II no, but a lot of things people didn't like about the prequels I didn't have a problem with. The 'immaculate conception', Jar-Jar, and spending way too much time on the Padme-Anakin stuff were my only real issues with those. Not enough to ruin them completely or anything.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by molson

You don't understand how someone could even "tolerate" the movie?

Geez, I'm glad I don't watch movies the same way some posters here do. I don't think I'd ever go to the movies if there was even a 20% chance I'd have a negative experience I couldn't even tolerate. But I'm pretty forgiving of all entertainment I consume, I'd be a terrible critic. If I might hate something, I'm not going to waste my time with it.

Same here. If something doesn't entertain me, I'm going to move on from it immediately. There's no point in wasting my time, life's too short.

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Sure, there are weak parts in Episode IV and at a certain point, very little in the SW universe stands up to a high enough level of scrutiny. That isn't really the point though, at least to me. There are too many things in Ep. 7 that are just a big giant slap in the face, and a fun, straightforward movie doesn't require any of them. Most have already been mentioned here, but:

** Rehashing the Ep. IV plot line to the degree that was done.
** Being a Jedi doesn't require training anymore apparently, which spits on Luke's entire character arc from 4-6, esp. the iconic Dagobah training stuff. Heck, you don't even have to be force-sensitive to use a lightsaber effectively now(see: Finn).

Those are the big ones, which essentially turn the movie into a parody of the SW universe. Then you throw in things like KR's 'handled saber' which has all the impression of trying to reinvent the wheel into a square shape, far inferior character interaction/dialogue as compared to 4-6, and so on -- there are some fine points to be sure. For example, I like Rey's character in general as much as any in any movie I can remember. Ever. Ridley's acting was fantastic for the role IMO. For that reason I see a great deal of potential(that will probably be unrealized, but still) going forward. But I regard the bullet points above as being in the obviously absurd/unforgivable category. I don't know how one gets to a point where they are even vaguely tolerable, either from a director or fan standpoint. Esp. when there was so much potential to take the franchise in a more interesting direction with the Empire gone. From those who know the various novels from the period better than I do, I understand this was done to some extent in the writing that's out there, but instead we get Rebellion vs. Empire again without the slightest attempt to do anything but a completely unconvincing replay. YMMV, but I don't think it's nitpicking. I like A New Hope quite a bit, but I have the DVD. If I want to watch it again, I can do that. Rey and the interesting element of Finn being a stormtrooper are the only reasons for me not to -- there are about a thousand other different things that could have done I would have been totally fine with and applauded.

.02

I can understand the criticism. But this was a movie that was made for more than Star Wars fans. It really was a remake of A New Hope, for a new generation. Which I kind of had a feeling it was going to be all along. With some housekeeping to close out a loose end or two.

For me, it was incredibly entertaining two hours.

[molson]

I liked that it gave it a back-to-basics feel after the more complicated story the prequels tried to tell. I was so happy they didn't try to re-invent things and instead just made a fun Star Wars movie. Plenty of movie franchises have formulas. They work because they create a more relaxed, cozy, viewing experience. I liked Law and Order too and that told the same story hundreds of times with little variation. And there's always been a part of Star Wars lore that repeated itself - the whole dynamic of masters and apprentices, the back and forth tension between good and evil.

And for me, there was plenty of fun new stuff too. Including a "civilian" using a lightsaber and Rey learning about her powers accidentally. It's been a while since I saw Episode I but didn't Annakin have abilities as a boy? Maybe not as much as Rey, but shit, that's the story here - why does she have these powers and how powerful can she be if she is actually trained? And it was never established that civilians couldn't use lightsabers. Lucas chose to keep the lightsabers in the hands of jedis, which made them seem exclusive and cool, but that backdrop, IMO, made it all the more dramatic when Finn had to be pressed into lightsaber service when he had no other choice. Typically, it wouldn't be a weapon you CHOSE if you weren't a jedi. But surely we all played with our Star Wars figures and had Han Solo use a lightsaber on occasion. Finn, like Solo, wasn't a jedi, but I always thought Solo did have a "light" about him - it's why Obi-Wan Kenobi choose him at the Cantina bar, he knew Solo had good in him and would end up being a hero in his own way. I think Finn has the same kind of "light" - not a jedi, but clearly special on the sliding scale of light and darkness. I have no problem believing that both, in their primes, could have hung with an injured ex-jedi trainee for a bit in a conflict.

I can certainly understand how the movie wasn't for everyone, but I don't think it was just objectively bad or that these decisions were just objectively wrong.