Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Dutch]

It's somewhat time consuming because there's so many vegetables to chop up.

Black & Decker EHC650 2-Speed Food Chopper with 3-Cup Bowl: Amazon.com: Home & Kitchen

Couldn't you use a dicer?

[Matthean]

It would seem odd to get a reaction a couple of days later.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Matthean

It would seem odd to get a reaction a couple of days later.

Oh yeah, I rationally don't think my stomach troubles were from that food at all. However, there's an irrational part of my brain that links the two.

[QuikSand]

So, depending on your open-mindedness on these issues, here's either another fairly alarming set of medical findings (this time about eggs in specific), or another laughable bit of stupid animal-lover propaganda. Either way, for pretty much everyone left in this thread, it might be interesting.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-...ing-and-death/

[Kodos]

Yikes. That's an eye opener.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, depending on your open-mindedness on these issues, here's either another fairly alarming set of medical findings (this time about eggs in specific), or another laughable bit of stupid animal-lover propaganda. Either way, for pretty much everyone left in this thread, it might be interesting.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-...ing-and-death/

Links to lots of videos, one link to one study. My biggest question in this: did they differentiate patients who ate eggs vs those who ate eggs + bacon/sausage/other fat sources? For example, I'll often have an egg sandwich for breakfast, but almost never have bacon or sausage or other common accompinament for eggs. I could easily see the worst patients as those who eat the traditional farmer's breakfast.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

So, depending on your open-mindedness on these issues, here's either another fairly alarming set of medical findings (this time about eggs in specific), or another laughable bit of stupid animal-lover propaganda. Either way, for pretty much everyone left in this thread, it might be interesting.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-...ing-and-death/

This story is about a month old and "the science" is about as flawed can be.

Here

Here

Here

Here

[Matthean]

Last year, the Harvard Nurses’ Health Study reported that the daily consumption of the amount of cholesterol found in a single egg appeared to cut a woman’s life short as much as smoking 25,000 cigarettes.

I'm amazed somebody from Harvard came to this conclusion. This is like saying 2 + 2 = 59,654. At some point you have to look at your data and realize it's absurd.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I'm amazed somebody from Harvard came to this conclusion. This is like saying 2 + 2 = 59,654. At some point you have to look at your data and realize it's absurd.

I don't believe you are reading the sentence correctly.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

This story is about a month old and "the science" is about as flawed can be.

Despite your, umm.... flair, I actually intend to read the stuff you have linked to here. In my first several minutes of doing so, I see a lot of deeply bad math (or, rather, deep misunderstanding of math) that rivals the "bad science" these folks seek to decry.

The more I read in these subjects, the more it starts to take the shape of political debates, where players on both/all sides seem overeager to embrace any argument that bolsters their pre-supposed claim, and equally overeager to tear down any argument that refutes their pre-supposed claim.

If you're a committed paleo, then you will find ample evidence to suggest it's the one true path everywhere you look. If you're motivated to protect animals, then you'll likely cling to every study that finds animal products to be evil. if you make a living off livestock or their products, then you're shocked that not everyone is fully understanding the latest report from the Egg Board or the meat Council like you are.

And yes, as someone who has embraced a deliberate path along the way here, I'm probably affected by this as well. I have done certain things, have had certain results, and through some combination of personal pride and obvious direct observations, I'm probably inclined to think that what I'm doing (and what I have been persuaded to believe) is at least pointed in the right direction.

I also, like pretty much anyone, have a saturation point. What if I find things in the attack articles linked by CB above that sound fishy or unfairly dismissive to me? Do I need to go track down the original report and pore though its findings myself? Maybe, I suppose. Am I going to do that? Probably not. So, do I end up falling into the familiar trap of siding with my pre-conceived notions here? Maybe. I am personally pretty convinced that cholesterol and saturated fats, both present in eggs, are bad for you, especially if you have a predisposition toward heart disease. I am generally convinced that some measure of egg consumption has a positive correlation to heart disease... sure. And same with smoking. Sure. And that you could reasonably calculate the two correlations and some up with a cross-equivalence between the two causes, that could be constructed into "This Much A is as bad for you as That Much B." Sure.

So, will I ever have the certainty that CB does above? Maybe not. Whether it's because I'm a coward, or because I'm just a bit tougher in my standards... tough to say. I'll keep reading and trying to learn, it's the best weapon in the fight, seems to me.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I'm amazed somebody from Harvard came to this conclusion. This is like saying 2 + 2 = 59,654. At some point you have to look at your data and realize it's absurd.

Daily consumption / aka, not one egg.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Despite your, umm.... flair, I actually intend to read the stuff you have linked to here. In my first several minutes of doing so, I see a lot of deeply bad math (or, rather, deep misunderstanding of math) that rivals the "bad science" these folks seek to decry.

...

I'd like to know what bad math, or even numbers, you are referring to here. Unless I missed it (and that's a possibility), most of the numbers I recall from the articles are quoted directly from the original research paper itself.

While I don't have the time nor the ability to accurately summarize all of the points from the articles (or attack articles??? as they were referred to), it's pretty clear in my mind that there is almost no merit to that study. Furthermore, I'm not even sure what diets Zoe Harcombe or the Fat Head website promote so I don't think that can really be used as an argument in following a certain "path" (and as it is, what I consume probably falls closer to Paul Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet than anything else).

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I am personally pretty convinced that cholesterol and saturated fats, both present in eggs, are bad for you, especially if you have a predisposition toward heart disease. I am generally convinced that some measure of egg consumption has a positive correlation to heart disease... sure.

I thought it was well documented at least a few years ago now that the lipid theory of heart disease originally presented by Ancel Keys was incorrect (and Keys may have even admitted so himself). I also thought it was a fairly accepted fact that the cause of heart disease was inflammation, which itself is caused by refined carbs, sugars and to a lesser extent grains and starches.

Like I said earlier, I'm not anti-vegan by any means and if you can find a way to subtract grains and soy and keep up your protein, B12 and omega 3 then all the power to you and I think that would be an extremely healthy diet.

At the end of the day, different diets work better for different people. Some people are better off without dairy, some better off with less starches, some without beef etc. My biggest belief though is that any person concerned with what they eat should be doing much more research into the health effects of wheat, gluten and grains.

[QuikSand]

Whatever brand of eating better is your preference, here's a nutrition-based holiday challenge that has yielded pretty effective results for a number of people I have known.

The 2012 Holiday Challenge | Dr Fuhrman.com

The essentials:

For the next two months, I promise to increase the nutrient value of my diet with more G-BOMBS by eating:

At least one large salad every day

Generous amounts of cooked green vegetables, beans, onions, and mushrooms every day

Satisfy my sweet tooth with at least three fresh fruits, especially berries, every day

1-2 ounces of raw nuts and seeds each day

For the next two months, I promise to AVOID:

White flour

Sugars &
natural and artificial
sweeteners

Excess oil;
limit to 1 teaspoon or less per day, if any

Factory-farmed
animal products

I confess that I haven't been able to live up to the full commitment -- right now I can't shed stevia sweetener, and can't get my oils down quite that low. But I'm very pleased with the results from doing pretty well along most of the other lines.

The basic idea of nutritarian approach is to think of food in terms of what;s good divided by its calories. That means shedding all those grains, sugars, and oils that most sensible diet plans agree are net negatives. Specifics aside, it's interesting stuff.

[Matthean]

Kale should come with a warning label. I've been switching to it in instead of lettuce and that will clean you out.

[QuikSand]

Shameless plug here, but if your diet or inclination points you toward specialty foods (organics, gluten free, and so forth) or vitamins and the like, then the site Vitacost is making a serious effort to move into this space.

If you're interested, they have a referral program -- follow this link, sign up for an account, and spend $30 or more, then you and I each get a $10 credit.

https://www.vitacostrewards.com/dytgZnj

In my experience, they generally have prices that are pretty competitive with local retailers or online competitors, and then they run a variety of specials that sometimes give them an actual edge. In any event, I have ordered twice, and have been pretty pleased. They also do a subsrcibe-and-save option, which is a no-risk additional savings.

[QuikSand]

Vegetarians cut heart disease risk - TODAY Health

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

A few things that have worked well for me:


-try a green smoothie, using frozen fruit and some combination of green vegetables that you can live with (and perhaps a protein source)... with just a little common sense, it's fairly easy to spin together a fruity drink that tastes great and pretty much hides the taste of even the roughest greens (kale, collards, etc)... I will add some weirdo stuff like spirulina or hemp powder to mine, but that's not essential at all


Good luck.

Just want to echo this. I've been a vegetarian for about 3-4 years now, and generally, I was a damn picky eater to begin with - this just further cut down my options. But one of the things I wanted to do (along with cutting down some on the enriched white flour) is eat more greens, amusing given that my mom has a PhD in Nutrition (finally learning the lessons).

Green smoothies are great - someone gave me a MagicBullet, and its awesome - I put about half Spinach / Kale, etc etc, and the other half a combination of bananas, strawberries, blueberries + a teaspoon of chia seeds and blend it - I then add sliced almonds on top. The net result is a healthy smoothie that tastes nothing like Spinach, but still lets me get the "healthy" nutrients my diet generally lacks.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Whatever brand of eating better is your preference, here's a nutrition-based holiday challenge that has yielded pretty effective results for a number of people I have known.

The 2012 Holiday Challenge | Dr Fuhrman.com

The essentials:



I confess that I haven't been able to live up to the full commitment -- right now I can't shed stevia sweetener, and can't get my oils down quite that low. But I'm very pleased with the results from doing pretty well along most of the other lines.

The basic idea of nutritarian approach is to think of food in terms of what;s good divided by its calories. That means shedding all those grains, sugars, and oils that most sensible diet plans agree are net negatives. Specifics aside, it's interesting stuff.

If one avoids "white flour", is whole wheat bread ok? I really don't know.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

If one avoids "white flour", is whole wheat bread ok? I really don't know.

Yes, that's the primary easy switch... Replace simple white flour with whole wheat, which is easy to find and a fairly painless switch taste-wise.

If you're serious about getting to whole grains (which I think is worthwhile) then learn your labeling rules:

Wheat = means almost nothing

Multi grain = contains more than one grain, but not necessarily whole grains

Whole Wheat = bread or pasta labeled like this only has to be 51% whole wheat, the rest can be processed or white

100% Whole Wheat = the real thing


At some point, you can progress with your use of grains... Get rid of the processed junk first. Then get rigidly whole grain. Then search for more nutritious grains, like quinoa. And all the way along, reducing the share of your diet that is supported by grains,which are fairly lightweight in terms of nutrition -- and shift toward greens and vegetables where it makes sense.

[Desnudo]

Anyone try the 4 hour body diet? I'm at the end of my first week and have two boxes of Annie's deluxe Mac and cheese lined up for my binge day.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Yes, that's the primary easy switch... Replace simple white flour with whole wheat, which is easy to find and a fairly painless switch taste-wise.

If you're serious about getting to whole grains (which I think is worthwhile) then learn your labeling rules:

Wheat = means almost nothing

Multi grain = contains more than one grain, but not necessarily whole grains

Whole Wheat = bread or pasta labeled like this only has to be 51% whole wheat, the rest can be processed or white

100% Whole Wheat = the real thing


At some point, you can progress with your use of grains... Get rid of the processed junk first. Then get rigidly whole grain. Then search for more nutritious grains, like quinoa. And all the way along, reducing the share of your diet that is supported by grains,which are fairly lightweight in terms of nutrition -- and shift toward greens and vegetables where it makes sense.

Ok, one other thing....I drink iced tea. ALL the time. I use splenda as a sweetner. I know it's not good for me. Alternatives? I have done google searches for alternatives to artificial sweetners, and all that comes up is real sugar.

[Desnudo]

Agave nectar. The main reason for avoiding processed foods is glycemic index and it has a low GI.

Sugar is sugar though at the end of the day and it still contains fructose.

[QuikSand]

If you want a non-calorie sweetener, you probably can do better than Splenda -- try something that's stevia based. By most accounts, it's the least concerning among the non-calorie sweeteners.

Here's a video speaking to that:



Here's an Amazon link to the brand I use:
Amazon.com: Stevita Supreme - 50pkts - 1.8 oz / Packet: Health & Personal Care

The "spoonable" type is actually a mix of stevia and erythritol, which is even closer to what Greger suggests in the video above. I'm trying it now, the taste is okay by me.

Amazon.com: Stevia Spoonable-50pkts - 50 ct - Packet: Health & Personal Care

I think the best rank order of what to do here is like this:

-get past the sweet tooth, satisfy that urge with fresh fruits
-use stevia and/or eryrhritol
-use agave nectar (calories and sugar, but slower absorption and less insulin shock)
-use saccharin (pink stuff)
-use aspartame (blue stuff) or sucralose (yellow stuff)

I personally wish I were strong enough to get past my own sweet tooth - I'm doing better, but I still dump stevia stuff into my coffee. I do think that shedding the craving for sweetness is like cleansing yourself of an addiction (likely overstated there) and that it lets your body adjust to more natural foods and develop honest hunger, rather than eating to satisfy non-nutritional desires.
-use

[finketr]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Then search for more nutritious grains, like quinoa. And all the way along, reducing the share of your diet that is supported by grains,which are fairly lightweight in terms of nutrition -- and shift toward greens and vegetables where it makes sense.

Regarding quinoa: Make sure you rinse it. And rinse it again. And rinse it again. Seriously, rinse it in cold water for at least 2 minutes. Otherwise it tends to come out extremely bitter.

[QuikSand]

Vegan Men: More Testosterone But Less Cancer | NutritionFacts.org

[Radii]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Vegan Men: More Testosterone But Less Cancer | NutritionFacts.org

Why is the black mannequin twice as muscular as the white one?!

Also as someone with low testosterone at a stupidly young age, I find this intriguing.

[Senator]

Bumping this thread as it is my newest deep reading.

[Danny]

Well, look at what Ron Swanson eats and his cholesterol is 120.

[Kodos]

He does eat a banana every third day now. Low potassium.

[QuikSand]

An update to one sub-theme of this thread -- looking at low-calorie sweeteners:

Is There a Safe, Low-Calorie Sweetener? | NutritionFacts.org

Money quote: "As long as one consumes less than, say, two stevia-sweetened beverages a day, stevia can be considered harmless."

Among more conventional caloric sweeteners, here's more from the same source:

The Healthiest Sweetener | NutritionFacts.org

[QuikSand]

An interesting blog (I met with the author a while back, good guy) and a post that - while pretty detailed - might be interesting to many who have been wading through this thread to this point.

Vegan Diet Nutrition | No Meat Athlete

Cut-to-the-Chase Infographic

[QuikSand]

I know it's Pravda propaganda and all that, but still an interesting read for those watching these issues:

Doctors Should Start Advocating Dietary Options to Treat Heart Disease - The Daily Beast

[Matthean]

Hamburger Chef Jamie Oliver Proves McDonald’s Burgers “Unfit for human consumption”

Semi-related.

[Desnudo]

If I'm honest, that 1/4 pound of pink slime still tastes pretty damn good.

[QuikSand]

So, here are a few updates on my own situation. I'm a little past two years into a 100% plant-based diet, and I generally eat much more healthfully than ever before. Got a blood test last week, and the results continue to impress me.

My total cholesterol was never really in the terrible range - pre-change, I tested about 180 total, and the warning signs start over 200. In the two years since being on my new diet, I have seen the total drop to 138 and most recently 131. So, that's progress... many in the field point to a total cholesterol level below 150 as a healthy cardio goal. It appears I got there in just a few months of doing better. Some books/sites tout people making a similar fairly quick drop from high-danger areas 300+ down to <150 just by dietary changes, I have no independent evidence. But people who simply say "cholesterol is hereditary, period" seem to be missing a lot.

The subcomponents of cholesterol are even more interesting to me... you have the "good" HDL, and the more troublesome LDL and VLDL. In 2011, my tests showed me too low in the HDL (30, want to be 40+) and too high in the bad stuff. So, my ratio of total/good cholesterol was about 6 -- and that ratio shouldn't go over 5.

My more recent readings have progressed in the component front as well -- in my latest test, with a total level of 131, I have 34 in the good HDL, meaning that ratio is now down to 97/34 = less than 3. That's a pretty big move. My doctor advises that for vegetarians and others wirth fairly low overall cholesterol, the importance of having "enough" of the good HDL isn't as acute - she is very happy with my results here.

One more note - I'm also seeing a shift within the bad cholesterol, the low- and very-low-density components. Before my split was nearly half and half -- 86 LDL and 66 VLDL. In my latest test, not only is the total of the bad stuff lower, but the ratio is better also -- 68 LDL and 29 VLDL. I don't have a strong sense how important this shift is, but it's seen as an expected and welcome result of eating better.

Reference here: Mayo Clinic References

For me, the stunning news of my latest tests came with Triglycerides, another part of the lipid spectrum. Mayo (above) indicates that a range <150 is healthy, and 200+ being high. My previous tests came in in the 300-330 range. Last week, I punched in at 147, far and away the best result I have ever logged. I'm not sure what happened, exactly, but I took this as such good news that I celebrated by having roughly 60 cocktails at the beach last week, which I'm sure was a smart move.

Anyway, mostly bragging here... but it's nice to feel like something's working well. The blood chemistry is pointing in the right direction, my load of heart-related medication is less intrusive than it once was, and ... well, losing nearly 50 pounds doesn't hurt, either.

[digamma]

Congrats, Quik.

[Kodos]

That is great, Quik. I know we have skeptics on the board, but I think a diet high in veggies in fruit is a great step toward better health.

[Subby]

Score one for the good guys!

[QuikSand]

For those who have an interest in the goals (even if not the means) discussed widely in this thread, there's another documentary movie that's creating a good deal of buzz:

About the Issues » Escape Fire

While the film is talking more broadly about problems with the health care system globally, a good deal of it does get into prevention - where lo and behold we see some of these pesky arguments that eating better and exercising more could make an enormous difference in our health and health care. If you're on that track of thinking already, the film might be your cop of tea. And if not, then I'm sure you'll find the same grist as usual.

As you might expect, it's packaged well and at least superficially compelling.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Kodos

That is great, Quik. I know we have skeptics on the board, but I think a diet high in veggies in fruit is a great step toward better health.

Like carrots in a cantaloupe? Or radishes in a grapefruit? I guess I haven't been looking too closely at the latest offerings in the produce section!

[Kodos]

Stuffing is a big deal now! Get with the times! I like squash in grapes myself.

[Matthean]

And here I am happy about merely getting past a plateau in terms of weight by cutting out bread as much as I can.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Matthean

And here I am happy about merely getting past a plateau in terms of weight by cutting out bread as much as I can.

Yes. Yes!

Cut the bread. Then cut back on sugar. Then add more green veg. Less dairy. More veg. Less fatty meat. Less oil.

You can do every one of these steps! Hang in there!

[QuikSand]

Interesting article...

10 Things I Wish I Knew Before I Went Vegan | No Meat Athlete

Most of this hits home for me, but this item in specific:

7. No matter how much you try to not make it a big deal, it’s gonna be a big deal.

I haven’t met vegans who are more laid back about it than my wife and I are. We don’t try to get people to go vegan, we’re supportive when people tell us they’re eating more whole foods even when their diet is more Paleo than vegan, and neither of us is the type that enjoys debating about how anyone “should” eat.

And yet, even with such a relaxed attitude and an avoidance of anything that could be considered pushy, I’d estimate that after we went vegan, we started eating dinners with family and friends about half as much as before, maybe even less.

Being vegan is a big deal, whether you make it that way or not. Some people will think you’re judging them and won’t dare try to prepare a meal for you, even if only because they’re afraid they’ll do a poor job of it. Others just don’t want to make the effort, and that’s totally understandable. And while there’s no reason we couldn’t invite those same people over to our place just as often as before, I can see how a vegan dinner would be unappealing to less adventurous eaters, and as a result I think I extend the invitation a little less often than before (note to self: I need to work on this).

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

For those who have an interest in the goals (even if not the means) discussed widely in this thread, there's another documentary movie that's creating a good deal of buzz:

About the Issues » Escape Fire

While the film is talking more broadly about problems with the health care system globally, a good deal of it does get into prevention - where lo and behold we see some of these pesky arguments that eating better and exercising more could make an enormous difference in our health and health care. If you're on that track of thinking already, the film might be your cop of tea. And if not, then I'm sure you'll find the same grist as usual.

As you might expect, it's packaged well and at least superficially compelling.

Somehow missed this. Will definitely check it out.

[Kodos]

I could use some help/recommendations about getting more whole grains in my diet. I'm not a big fan of oatmeal unless I bury it in sugar. Maybe mixing whole grains in with my fruit smoothies would be a good idea?

I like Cheerios. Would smallish snack bags of Cheerios each day work? That would be an easy addition to my eating habits.

[korme]

Have you tried tossing in a banana or a couple strawberries with your oatmeal?

[QuikSand]

My view on this is basically:

Whole grains are not exactly healthy in and of themselves... The fiber can be good, but its not like you body actually needs anything from whole grains. So, I think I differ from your undertone... You don't need to make up ways to get whole grains into your diet.

What is important, though, is to get the refined grains OUT of your diet. So, the main push for adding whole grains is usually a proxy for "stop eating white bread you dumbass," with which I and most everyone would agree.

So, basically, I say add spinach to your smoothies, and skip the grains.

[Kodos]

That's good news, since lately I've been adding spinach to my smoothies anyway. Thanks, Quik!

[DaddyTorgo]

I just got my invite to graze.com