POL: Stop the NAFTA Highway!!!

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by stevew

Would the publicly funded Waaambulance be more efficient than the HMO Waaambulance? Inquiring minds want to know!

I think that the stats clearly show that a publicly funded Waaambulance would have much lower overhead.

[st.cronin]

It is trollish, or at best sickeningly arrogant, to suggest that somebody who disagrees with you is "ignorant." People who do that in real life tend to have no friends.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It is trollish, or at best sickeningly arrogant, to suggest that somebody who disagrees with you is "ignorant." People who do that in real life tend to have no friends.

If you are offended by my choice of words, then I apologize. I should have said, "you don't know what you are talking about" with regards to the VA. If you do know what you are talking about, then prove me wrong and give me some evidence to back it up your claim that it is laughable to use the VA as an example of good health care. You haven't done so so far, and have instead just gone with ad hominem attacks, which leads me to believe that you now realize I am right and are trying to save face.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

If you are offended by my choice of words, then I apologize. I should have said, "you don't know what you are talking about" with regards to the VA. If you do know what you are talking about, then prove me wrong and give me some evidence to back it up your claim that it is laughable to use the VA as an example of good health care. You haven't done so so far, and have instead just gone with ad hominem attacks, which leads me to believe that you now realize I am right and are trying to save face.

Your choice of words did not "offend" me, it ended the converstation, which was it's intent. Translated, it would read like: "I'm right, you're ignorant, if you disagree with me you are either biased or stupid." Behavior like that is one reason why you are considered a troll by many people around here; don't think just because I'm the most vocal that I'm the only one. Since I've started calling you out, many folks have expressed to me in pm that they agree with me.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

If you do know what you are talking about, then prove me wrong and give me some evidence to back it up your claim that it is laughable to use the VA as an example of good health care.

chiiiiirrp....chiiiiirp

/crickets

st.cronin, the reason I say you don't know what you are talking about here isn't because you have a different opinion. It's because you don't know what you are talking about. If you came to the conversation with some well thought out argument, I would respond in kind. I have responded politely to the questions and comments of several people right here in this thread before duckman and you came along. But you didn't. You just expressed incredulity that I would call the VA system a success. Since by any objective means it is a success and has been praised everywhere over the past couple of years, and you don't have any evidence to suggest otherwise, it means you don't know what you are talking about.

st.cronin, you have a habit of starting things, then calling me a troll when I respond in kind. This word 'troll', I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you would like a response from me, feel free to PM me, because I am done with the question of your ignorance in this thread. (I think we have both presented our arguments: Me: Well do you have any evidence to back up your claims? You: Go fuck yourself troll!) But I doubt you do want a response, I expect your next post will just be telling me to go fuck myself and, ironically, calling me a troll.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

...This word 'troll', I do not think it means what you think it means.

...

I think you're the third to use this line from the Princess Bride in this thread. I think it is played out for the sakes of this thread. That by the second person to cite it.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I think you're the third to use this line from the Princess Bride in this thread. I think it is played out for the sakes of this thread. That by the second person to cite it.

Possibly the 80000th use of that phrase on this forum as well. Quit drinking the Nafta kool aid, and stop throwing st cronin under the bus.

[Galaxy]

I do agree that the VA being a model for effective is a joke. Unless you talk to a handful of people who have the ability to access these facilities, articles are useless. I echo the others from some veterans who stay as far away from the VA system, opting for the better quality in private practice.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Agreed, but if you have fleshed out the facts beforehand and are just looking for something on the web to show others, it takes no time at all.

Problem is, as I did with the corporate rates of the world, you can find information that supports your own arguments (not you specifically, but in general).

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I do agree that the VA being a model for effective is a joke. Unless you talk to a handful of people who have the ability to access these facilities, articles are useless. I echo the others from some veterans who stay as far away from the VA system, opting for the better quality in private practice.

VA has beaten private medicine for years in survey after survey of satisfaction. They meet or exceed the care of private medicine in study after study of effectiveness. Does that mean that for each situation the VA will do better? Of course not. Does it mean that a given VA hospital somewhere will be better than a specific hospital next door? No. You and others have had problems with the VA system? Yeah, I don't doubt it. But open up a thread about complaints about private medicine, and it would reach multiple pages easy.

Overall, care from the VA system is, in the industry, considered to be better than private care, and for a lower cost. It's size gives it so many advantages: bargaining power for drugs, ability to pay for costly IT upgrades, etc.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Problem is, as I did with the corporate rates of the world, you can find information that supports your own arguments (not you specifically, but in general).

What do you mean? We both posted the same federal corporate tax rates. I added local governmet tax rates, and also had a column for effective marginal tax rates.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The bigger picture here is assuming of course that individuals have a choice between a VA system or private care. For millions, the latter option does not exist. And thus without something like the VA system, there is nothing for them. That I think is more the point of what Mr. B was trying to say.

As for private care, it can be good. But I had surgery at a very good hospital in Seattle, but still had to remain awake at night to make sure the damn nurse gave me the proper medication and IV. TWICE, I told two different nurses in the SAME night that the doc had taken me off certain IV. They appeared baffled, went back to check the chart, and then returned saying, "oh yeah, you're right." So, you see, there are anecdotal stories on both sides. e.g. getting the wrong leg amputated.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

The bigger picture here is assuming of course that individuals have a choice between a VA system or private care. For millions, the latter option does not exist. And thus without something like the VA system, there is nothing for them. That I think is more the point of what Mr. B was trying to say.

As for private care, it can be good. But I had surgery at a very good hospital in Seattle, but still had to remain awake at night to make sure the damn nurse gave me the proper medication and IV. TWICE, I told two different nurses in the SAME night that the doc had taken me off certain IV. They appeared baffled, went back to check the chart, and then returned saying, "oh yeah, you're right." So, you see, there are anecdotal stories on both sides. e.g. getting the wrong leg amputated.

Well, when I was discharged from the service I was offered the choice between signing up for the VA, or seeking my own insurance. As it turned out, Blue Cross was available to me for less than 1/2 the cost of the VA. So, I don't really see the "lower cost" side of the equation, either.

[miked]

Pretty funny.

I worked at the (Atlanta) VA as a student and during my fellowship, if that's the model for how a hospital should be run, we are all fucked. Despite what silly surveys you read, I can tell you my first person account as somebody who worked there in the past...run away. It is absurdly slow, there is a really stupid chain of command for getting anything done, and most people who have used the VA in the past are running for the private docs.

My former boss, who was a person in very high ranking there, told me one month he had to decide between buying gauze and some other supplies, or paying the nurses. Enough said.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

VA has beaten private medicine for years in survey after survey of satisfaction. They meet or exceed the care of private medicine in study after study of effectiveness. Does that mean that for each situation the VA will do better? Of course not. Does it mean that a given VA hospital somewhere will be better than a specific hospital next door? No. You and others have had problems with the VA system? Yeah, I don't doubt it. But open up a thread about complaints about private medicine, and it would reach multiple pages easy.

Overall, care from the VA system is, in the industry, considered to be better than private care, and for a lower cost. It's size gives it so many advantages: bargaining power for drugs, ability to pay for costly IT upgrades, etc.

Problem with VA and private care, is your comparing apples to oranges. VA is only for veterans and the hospitals are fully funded by the government (the Department of Veterans Affairs is the second largested funded department in the US gov't). Until recently, the VA has been underfunded. They do not have to deal with the problems of people defaulting on bills who may not have insurance. Not all veterans receive free insurance (I believe it depends on your income and if your injury is connected to service). Also, I don't believe that VA particate in research of new products, drugs, ect. as private hospitals, or at least the way the private system do. Also, how exactly are surveys conducted in comparsion a restricted hospital system in the VA to a open system of public/private care?

Private care has several levels of "quality". Do bad hospitals exist? Of course. You just have to find the good hospitals and do your research on selecting your doctors.

Also, how will you deal with an universal healthcare system with the large population of Boomers are retired, and need health care (obesity, aging, ect.) and a population that does not have the ability to support all of them without a dramtic increase in taxes? I do not want to see this country move to a socialist state.

[duckman]

Here is another story about the "quality" healthcare at the VA:

The doctors at the VA Hospital found a spot on my dad's lung in Feb. '05. He didn't get a biopsy until August to determine what it was. Come to find out that he had lung cancer. He did not get in to have the infected part of the lung removed until November. He didn't get to start his chemotherapy until March due to delays. It took them 9 months to get from the point of spotting a problem to giving treatment.

Some "quality" healthcare we receive.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Yes, this is the crux of the argument. If you have the choice between private and VA, you take private. If your only choice is VA-style and none, you take VA-style if it was available (via a universal healthcare system). Many people are in the latter category.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Yes, this is the crux of the argument. If you have the choice between private and VA, you take private. If your only choice is VA-style and none, you take VA-style if it was available (via a universal healthcare system). Many people are in the latter category.

VA is available to a priviliged minority. It is compensation for services, not universal health care.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I was speaking only of the quality of care provided under either system.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Problem with VA and private care, is your comparing apples to oranges. VA is only for veterans and the hospitals are fully funded by the government (the Department of Veterans Affairs is the second largested funded department in the US gov't). Until recently, the VA has been underfunded. They do not have to deal with the problems of people defaulting on bills who may not have insurance.

Apples and oranges are actually very similar things when you think about it. Without realizing it you just advocated for universal care. Everything here is an advantage for the VA because it is a government funded universal program. They save on administration and charge offs because it is funded by the government. They have a huge budget because there are advantages to having one large system.

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Also, how exactly are surveys conducted in comparsion a restricted hospital system in the VA to a open system of public/private care?

Can you explain more what you mean by this?

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Also, how will you deal with an universal healthcare system with the large population of Boomers are retired, and need health care (obesity, aging, ect.) and a population that does not have the ability to support all of them without a dramtic increase in taxes? I do not want to see this country move to a socialist state.

I think this point is moot, because you are going to pay one way or the other. Whether or not there is universal healthcare, there will still be a lot of old people that you have to pay for, either through taxes or health insurance premiums.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by duckman

Here is another story about the "quality" healthcare at the VA:

The doctors at the VA Hospital found a spot on my dad's lung in Feb. '05. He didn't get a biopsy until August to determine what it was. Come to find out that he had lung cancer. He did not get in to have the infected part of the lung removed until November. He didn't get to start his chemotherapy until March due to delays. It took them 9 months to get from the point of spotting a problem to giving treatment.

Some "quality" healthcare we receive.

http://changingminds.org/disciplines...ralization.htm

[duckman]

I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I can't do this:

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by duckman

I've tried to see things from your point of view, but I can't do this:

Haha, that's mature.

Me: The VA is a good systeam
You: That's retarded! I had a bad experience there!
Me: Here are several studies and articles in magazines such as Fortune saying that the VA is a good system.
You: You're wrong, here is another person that had a bad experience!

Do you know how silly that is? It's rediculous. You make no argument at all, you make no point. Really, if you think you are making a good argument, which I hope you don't, you are lacking in the most basic understanding of logic. And then you resort to childish pictures. If you want to make some decent point like Galaxy, feel free. But giving another example of someone that was screwed over by a VA doctor does nothing ot further your point of view.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Haha, that's mature.

Me: The VA is a good systeam
You: That's retarded! I had a bad experience there!
Me: Here are several studies and articles in magazines such as Fortune saying that the VA is a good system.
You: You're wrong, here is another person that had a bad experience!

Do you know how silly that is? It's rediculous. You make no argument at all, you make no point. Really, if you think you are making a good argument, which I hope you don't, you are lacking in the most basic understanding of logic. And then you resort to childish pictures. If you want to make some decent point like Galaxy, feel free. But giving another example of someone that was screwed over by a VA doctor does nothing ot further your point of view.

That's funny you mentioned maturity when your response was just a veiled attempt to show how more intelligent you are about everything. You're like the kid that points to himself yelling "Look, I'm smart." You know what they say about those who do that? You're "smart", so you'll have no problem figuring it out.

I'll tell you what. You actually walk into a VA healthcare facility and actually ask "What do you think of the VA hospital?". Pull up a chair and relax because you are going to hear how people have to wait months on end before getting basic procedures and treatments. Those surverys you talk about are a joke. I have taken about 6 of them since I've been a part of the VA system and they leave out basic questions like "Were you satisfied with the time limit to receive necessary or emergency treatment?". Instead, they ask about the cleanliness of the facilities and whether their doctor have their hair combed that day.

Also, I didn't come to this conclusion on one bad experience. It's a series of experiences with different people who have went through the VA for medical care. I can give you 5 more stories on my own behalf and 20-25 from friends and family who used the system. Life is about experiences and not some fucking survey.

If was as simple as just opening a magazine or book, there would be no need to experience life because you can just read about it make your conclusions. There is the flaw in your logic. You think that opening a book is going to give the big picture when in reality it is what you experience in the real world that is the most important. Not some book and not some essay. I would bet my life that if you went out to those hosptials and asked people directly you would get a whole different point of view of the quality of the healthcare that the VA provides.

So go ahead and say my logic flawed. I personally don't give a shit about the opinion of someone who thinks life can be experienced through reading a survey to determine whether someone is receiving quality healthcare. You're just a pathetic waste of oxygen and energy and I hope that someone will do all of us a favor and ban you from this place so none of us will have have hear your tripe ever again. And if you are just as big of an asshole in real life as you are on here, I can only pray that something happens to you to humble you a bit because no one likes an arrogant prick like yourself.

[sachmo71]

Well said, nobody.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by duckman

That's funny you mentioned maturity when your response was just a veiled attempt to show how more intelligent you are about everything.

Not going to comment on the rest of the paragraph, but that's how I view this. If we disagree, that's fine. I disagree with Bigs on this issue, that's fine. I know what I know, and he knows what he knows.

My theory is, if this country isn't your cup of tea and you truly want those programs that we have or don't have, than go to another country that fits those.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by duckman

So go ahead and say my logic flawed. I personally don't give a shit about the opinion of someone who thinks life can be experienced through reading a survey to determine whether someone is receiving quality healthcare. You're just a pathetic waste of oxygen and energy and I hope that someone will do all of us a favor and ban you from this place so none of us will have have hear your tripe ever again. And if you are just as big of an asshole in real life as you are on here, I can only pray that something happens to you to humble you a bit because no one likes an arrogant prick like yourself.

Not trying to stir up anything, but why do you want someone banned if you "don't give a shit" about his opinion? You don't care what he has to say? Ignore him. I just don't see how you can get all worked up about someone and then say that you don't care about what they think.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

My theory is, if this country isn't your cup of tea and you truly want those programs that we have or don't have, than go to another country that fits those.

Can I tell you how much this sentiment in people pisses me off? I hate it whenever someone criticises anything about this country and they get this crap thrown at them. What's wrong with seeing a problem in this country and wanting to make it better? Why should those that want to improve this country be the ones to leave?

I guess all those abolitionists should have moved to Europe instead of trying to outlaw slavery here? Or the civil rights protesters should have gone to live in Africa or some other such nonsense, right?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Can I tell you how much this sentiment in people pisses me off? I hate it whenever someone criticises anything about this country and they get this crap thrown at them. What's wrong with seeing a problem in this country and wanting to make it better? Why should those that want to improve this country be the ones to leave?

I guess all those abolitionists should have moved to Europe instead of trying to outlaw slavery here? Or the civil rights protesters should have gone to live in Africa or some other such nonsense, right?

I understand your point. A poor statement on my part. Sorry about that.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by duckman

That's funny you mentioned maturity when your response was just a veiled attempt to show how more intelligent you are about everything. You're like the kid that points to himself yelling "Look, I'm smart." You know what they say about those who do that? You're "smart", so you'll have no problem figuring it out.

I'll tell you what. You actually walk into a VA healthcare facility and actually ask "What do you think of the VA hospital?". Pull up a chair and relax because you are going to hear how people have to wait months on end before getting basic procedures and treatments. Those surverys you talk about are a joke. I have taken about 6 of them since I've been a part of the VA system and they leave out basic questions like "Were you satisfied with the time limit to receive necessary or emergency treatment?". Instead, they ask about the cleanliness of the facilities and whether their doctor have their hair combed that day.

Also, I didn't come to this conclusion on one bad experience. It's a series of experiences with different people who have went through the VA for medical care. I can give you 5 more stories on my own behalf and 20-25 from friends and family who used the system. Life is about experiences and not some fucking survey.

If was as simple as just opening a magazine or book, there would be no need to experience life because you can just read about it make your conclusions. There is the flaw in your logic. You think that opening a book is going to give the big picture when in reality it is what you experience in the real world that is the most important. Not some book and not some essay. I would bet my life that if you went out to those hosptials and asked people directly you would get a whole different point of view of the quality of the healthcare that the VA provides.

So go ahead and say my logic flawed. I personally don't give a shit about the opinion of someone who thinks life can be experienced through reading a survey to determine whether someone is receiving quality healthcare. You're just a pathetic waste of oxygen and energy and I hope that someone will do all of us a favor and ban you from this place so none of us will have have hear your tripe ever again. And if you are just as big of an asshole in real life as you are on here, I can only pray that something happens to you to humble you a bit because no one likes an arrogant prick like yourself.

http://www.changeminds.org/technique...ack_person.htm

But seriously...

Let's delve deeper into what you are saying. We are having a discussion about what the best course of action is for the country. Your position is that personal life experiences count more than surveys. So, how do we determine the correct course of action from that? Well, I'd assume that you would agree that having the government call you up to get your impression about every piece of policy would be a bad idea, because you can't tell anything from just one person. You need to talk to several people. So how do we figure out the personal life experiences of a representative sample of people? Well, we could talk to multiple people, thousands of them, and get their experiences. We could get a company that specializes in measuring quality and customer satisfaction to do the study. We could even base it on the American Customer Satisfaction index, a proven predictor given to 80,000 Americans a year. I think you are right, life experiences are important in determining the best course of action. But to gather multiple life experiences, we use 'surveys'.

[Galaxy]

How exactly could you do a survey on a VA vs. Private/Public Health system, unless you include only Military veterans or current personal, and a special group of minorities? Honestly, surveys are pretty meaingless to me. So many factors need to be consider, as well as a long-term outlook and the impact it will have.

You said we are discussing what's best for the country. When it comes down to it, we all have different ideas on what that is. But you seem to push your views as the only corect one. Maybe it's just me thought.

[miked]

It's very shortsighted and silly to read a bunch of articles in Forbes and other non-specialty magazines and say you have irrefutable proof that the VA system is great. I can google VA healthcare and find 100s of articles giving statistics on how bad it is. But I guess that doesn't really suit you.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

How exactly could you do a survey on a VA vs. Private/Public Health system, unless you include only Military veterans or current personal, and a special group of minorities? Honestly, surveys are pretty meaingless to me. So many factors need to be consider, as well as a long-term outlook and the impact it will have.

What is it that you would say that would make veterans expect lower care from their health providers? (I'm not sure what you mean with minorities) Maybe that they think the VA sucks so they have low expectations?

Well if you don't like surveys, here is a study by RAND that looked at 600 VA patients and 1000 non-VA patients and found that "51 percent of non-VA patients received care that met the latest standards of the health care profession, compared with 67 percent for VA patients. For preventative care, such as pneumonia vaccination and certain cancer screenings, 64 percent of VA patients received the appropriate care, compared to only 44 percent in the private sector." A 2003 study in the New England Journal of Medicine compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare (people who were able to choose their own private facilities). On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be “significantly better.” A study in Annals of Internal Medicine compared the VA quality of care to communities "by using a chart-based quality instrument consisting of 348 indicators targeting 26 conditions. Results were adjusted for clustering, age, number of visits, and medical conditions," and found that the VA provided a higher quality of care in all areas. Another study they published compared the VA's care of diabetes patients to managed care, and "compared scores on identically specified quality measures for 7 diabetes care processes and 3 diabetes intermediate outcomes and on 4 dimensions of satisfaction. Scores were expressed as the percentage of patients receiving indicated care and were adjusted for patients' demographic and health characteristics." The VA easily won.



I'm sure you could find some recent studies that favor the private practices, but a majority of the evidence says otherwise. At the very least, it's comparable care at a lower cost.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by miked

It's very shortsighted and silly to read a bunch of articles in Forbes and other non-specialty magazines and say you have irrefutable proof that the VA system is great. I can google VA healthcare and find 100s of articles giving statistics on how bad it is. But I guess that doesn't really suit you.

While you were posting I put together the above post with studies from places like the New England Journal of Medicine and Annals of Internal Medicine. If you can find 100s of studies talking about how bad the VHA is, then I would like to see them.

[duckman]

Again, I would like you to go out to an actual VA medical facility and ask them "What do you think of healthcare you receive here?" and see what kind of response you get. Just that question and no other. I bet you would be very surprised at how different the outcome is compared to these surveys you keep spouting. In other words, put up or shut up.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by duckman

Again, I would like you to go out to an actual VA medical facility and ask them "What do you think of healthcare you receive here?" and see what kind of response you get. Just that question and no othe. I bet you would very surprised at how different the outcome is compared to these surveys you keep spouting. In other words, put up or shut up.

I'm confused. Are you saying that veterans lie on the surveys? Or that they lie more than non-VA patients?

What if I went and they all said they hate it? Would that prove anything? It would just prove that the people there at that hospital at that moment don't like it. Same as if I went to a town council meeing in the middle of Texas and asked what they thought about Bush, then went to Berkeley and asked the same question. Neither would be representative.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I'm confused. Are you saying that veterans lie on the surveys? Or that they lie more than non-VA patients?

What if I went and they all said they hate it? Would that prove anything? It would just prove that the people there at that hospital at that moment don't like it. Same as if I went to a town council meeing in the middle of Texas and asked what they thought about Bush, then went to Berkeley and asked the same question. Neither would be representative.

You are now officially someone to never take serious ever again.

I cannot stop laughing at this response. You know very well that many of those questionaires are either slanted or don't ask the right questions. I have taken 6 of those surveys and they ask whether the doctor wore his white coat on my last visit. That has little to do with anything with the long waits that veterans have endured to receive basic treatment. They never ask anything like that in those beloved surveys of yours.

Congrats, you are going to made fun of for the rest of time you are here. You are to be no more serious than a clown.

[duckman]

Get used to this picture because this will be a part of my response to you everytime.

[MrBigglesworth]

Duckman, despite your personal attacks and your infantile behavior, I've been very patient. I've explained the concept of surveys and statistics so that a 5 year old could grasp the concept, but you still don't get it and insist on mocking the concept. Let's go through this, slowly, to help you to see how rediculous you sound:

You know very well that many of those questionaires are either slanted or don't ask the right questions.

How these types of surveys work is that they give out identical questionaires to two different groups, in this case VA patients and non-VA patients. Since they are getting the same exact survey, in same cases for covering the same exact illness, how is it that every questionnaire comes out biased against private practice? What motivation does the Bush administration have in accepting the slanting of the questionnaire in favor of a solution that would make universal healthcare look good? Rediculous.

I have taken 6 of those surveys and they ask whether the doctor wore his white coat on my last visit.

The yearly survey is done once a year to about 200 or so people. According to the VA they treat 5.2 million people every year. That means that in any given year, your odds of being surveyed are 1/26,000. It is your contention that you beat these odds 6 times so far. I find that pretty rediculous.

I have taken 6 of those surveys and they ask whether the doctor wore his white coat on my last visit.

Saying that that is an official question from the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan is, in a word, rediculous. Laughable on it's face. These studies are peer reviewed, and the NQRC is serious business. Are you sure that wasn't a comment card that you were filling out?

They never ask anything like that in those beloved surveys of yours.

All right, screw the surveys for a minute. So what about the studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine and the Annals of Internal Medicine that I linked to? By RAND? What did you think of them? They had all their methodology right there. The entire texts of the study were there in some cases. What makes them laughable?

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with the VA. I've had plenty of run-ins with medicine in the private field, so I know how you feel. But look at what you are trying to do: combat peer-reviewed surveys, countless articles in major publications, and numerous studies in respected journals with "well one time I went to the VA and it sucked." You must realize, deep in places you don't talk about at parties, that that is rediculous. I can empathize with your feelings towards the VA, but please realize that your feelings are based more on emotion than any rational analysis.

[dawgfan]

For the love of jeebus, the word is spelled "ridiculous".

Thank you for your attention, and please carry on...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Buchanan's column is just the latest to write/talk about it. For those who have never heard about it this column is a good start. Google for lots more info. This thing starts construction next year???

WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS!!! MAKE IT DEADER THAN THE DUBAI PORTS DEAL!!!

Regardless of what you think about me, nobody in their right mind, American anyways, could possible want this thing to happen! http://buchanan.org/blog/?p=67

Just imagine, thousands of Mexicans driving straight up to your door on fresh asphalt paid for by your taxes.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Just imagine, thousands of Mexicans driving straight up to your door on fresh asphalt paid for by your taxes.

If they are bringing tacos and flan, welcome to America!

[Desnudo]

and hot sauce

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I understand your point. A poor statement on my part. Sorry about that.

No problem, Galaxy. I hope I didn't come across as an ass in my post, but that's just one of those things that gets under my skin.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

If they are bringing tacos and flan, welcome to America!

Don't forget the tequilla.

[st.cronin]

What Mr. B doesn't understand is, first, that calling somebody ignorant or a 5 year old does zero to advance the discussion, and second, that when he brags that he starts out with the facts, and does research to support those facts, that he looks like a jackass to anybody who has ever actually done research or been interested in the truth.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

What Mr. B doesn't understand is, first, that calling somebody ignorant or a 5 year old does zero to advance the discussion...

I never said otherwise. But I've also done my best to add to the discussion. You...not so much, unless you count shuddering as adding to the discussion. Anyway, you are going to call out me for personal attacks that add nothing to the discussion in this thread? Maybe a little biased and not addressing things rationally, st.cronin?

Originally Posted by st.cronin

...that when he brags that he starts out with the facts, and does research to support those facts, that he looks like a jackass to anybody who has ever actually done research or been interested in the truth.

What is this, bizarro world? Citing actual research is 'bragging' compared to pulling things completely out of your ass like you and duckman? I have given ample opportunity for someone to give real evidence against the VA. Nobody has done it, when if it were as obvious as you and others say all it would take would be a simple google search. However, searches like "va healthcare study", "va health private comparison", "veterans healthcare comparison", etc, all turn up things that say good things about the VA. The worst you can find is increased waiting times because of the recent war injured coming in, something that Congress definitely needs to address. I'm sure if you dig you could find something worse, the VA isn't perfect and I never said it was. Just better than what we have now.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

For the love of jeebus, the word is spelled "ridiculous".

Thank you for your attention, and please carry on...

I've never been much of a speler.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I never said otherwise. But I've also done my best to add to the discussion. You...not so much, unless you count shuddering as adding to the discussion. Anyway, you are going to call out me for personal attacks that add nothing to the discussion in this thread? Maybe a little biased and not addressing things rationally, st.cronin?


What is this, bizarro world? Citing actual research is 'bragging' compared to pulling things completely out of your ass like you and duckman? I have given ample opportunity for someone to give real evidence against the VA. Nobody has done it, when if it were as obvious as you and others say all it would take would be a simple google search. However, searches like "va healthcare study", "va health private comparison", "veterans healthcare comparison", etc, all turn up things that say good things about the VA. The worst you can find is increased waiting times because of the recent war injured coming in, something that Congress definitely needs to address. I'm sure if you dig you could find something worse, the VA isn't perfect and I never said it was. Just better than what we have now.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I never said otherwise. But I've also done my best to add to the discussion. You...not so much, unless you count shuddering as adding to the discussion. Anyway, you are going to call out me for personal attacks that add nothing to the discussion in this thread? Maybe a little biased and not addressing things rationally, st.cronin?


What is this, bizarro world? Citing actual research is 'bragging' compared to pulling things completely out of your ass like you and duckman? I have given ample opportunity for someone to give real evidence against the VA. Nobody has done it, when if it were as obvious as you and others say all it would take would be a simple google search. However, searches like "va healthcare study", "va health private comparison", "veterans healthcare comparison", etc, all turn up things that say good things about the VA. The worst you can find is increased waiting times because of the recent war injured coming in, something that Congress definitely needs to address. I'm sure if you dig you could find something worse, the VA isn't perfect and I never said it was. Just better than what we have now.

See, I've already dealt with your bullshit in other threads, so I'm not going to take the bait. Any "evidence" anybody puts forth in an argument is "biased" or somehow flawed to the point where you don't need to take it seriously. We're tired of your shit, the way you twist people's words, and your contempt for anybody whose opinion is different than yours. There are other boards I'm sure you'd enjoy more, so why don't you just go away? You can't possibly enjoy this.