Game of Thrones on HBO

[Edward64]

Above average episode.

The Hound was great ... but the boot scene was a little too comical.

I guess that was Arya after all. The chase scenes after that gut wound is unbelievable but good to see the waif get hers. But why should we believe that Arya can beat the waif in the dark?

Edmure giving up and handing over the Blackfish is a twist. Don't think Edmure had to give up the Blackfish as part of any deal. Wonder how that plays out.

The Mountain and ripping the head off was great scene. Wish he had continued.

Daenerys is back. Think her dragons will make short work of the fleet.

Next weeks previews looked great.

[Coffee Warlord]

The entire Arya storyline in Braavos culminated in a giant festering pile of nonsensical shit. Just lazy, lazy writing.

On the plus side, Hound & Mountain were fun. The Brienne and Jaime scenes were actually not bad either.

Tyrion's presence in Mereen has been unbelievably disappointing from, and the few scene's he's had is a waste of Dinklage's talent, and a waste of limited screen time.

Honestly, I almost feel I'm watching this just to finish the story, and actually enjoying it less and less. The further they diverge from the books, the further they allow giant gaping plot holes to creep in, and it's really hurting the series for me.

[Ned Doolittle]

If we include next week's preview as part of this episode then we can call this week's episode "fantastic". If we can't do that then it's "meh".

[Atocep]

Loved the Hound.

The Arya story-arch ended up being a big letdown.

The Daenerys scene was standard TV cheese. Almost comically bad.

I thought the Riverrun stuff was solid even if it diverged quite a bit from the books.

Seeing the Mountain do something was a plus.

Next week's episode looks amazing.

Spoiler

The highest body count for this episode was for theories. I think we can say Syrio is officially dead. Arya is not having a fight club moment. There will be no Lady Stoneheart. Clegane bowl will be a last book thing, if it happens (I still think it will). Probably more dead theories I'm missing.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But why should we believe that Arya can beat the waif in the dark?

The same reason the Enterprise went into the Matura Nebula. (And we have no reason to believe the Waif was blinded like Arya was during her training.)

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Tyrion's presence in Mereen has been unbelievably disappointing from, and the few scene's he's had is a waste of Dinklage's talent, and a waste of limited screen time.

I actually liked the efforts to humanize Grey Worm and Missandei, but I don't know that we needed multiple scenes over multiple episodes to do it.

The whole Tyrion in Mereen thing strikes me as something that could have been better if it didn't have to be so rushed. His political schemes are typically entertaining to watch unfold, he's just had roughly five minutes of screen time spread among several episodes to untangle the Mereenese Knot.

Then again, a lot of my judgement depends upon what Danaerys's next move is. If she goes scorched earth and all of Tyrion's work is for naught... Well then yeah, all of that sucked.

Book spoilers ahead (in response to Atocep):

Spoiler

What makes you think the Lady Stoneheart angle is dead? I've long suspected that she's the big reveal/dramatic cliffhanger at the end of episode 10.

[Ned Doolittle]

Wouldn't Cersei's actual nuclear option be to admit to having an incestuous relationship with Jaime thereby making Tommen not the rightful king and really screwing him (and by extension the High Sparrow) over?

[bronconick]

In advance, some people have pointed to the title of the 10th episode for seasons 3,4, and 5 as the "proof" that character would be there. Every time, they're bitterly disappointed. It's not happening

[Arles]

I feel like the Arya story the past few episodes was a little more clumsy than it needed to be. IMO, a better arch would have been to have Arya fend off the Waif's first couple attempts at "disguise" (ie, sniffing out the obvious old lady and maybe a trader). She ends up finding Lady Crane to regroup and it turns out the be the Waif. She gets one good stab at Arya in the side and Arya flees to her lair and finishes the waif off in a similar manner.

The Arya "glory tour" before she got stabbed was extremely naive. Then, she just happens to find Lady Crane after her multiple gut stab wounds. Lady Crane just happens to be Florence Nightingale and heals her. The Waif just happens to not attack until Arya is almost healed. Finally, Arya pulls her best Jason Bourne through the streets and is still able to finish off the Waif after puncturing her multiple stab wounds again.

I do get the storyline of Arya winning in the dark after all the blindness lead up - I just feel the last two episodes were a little more fantastic (and drawn out) than they needed to be. Still, the rest of the episode was solid and I can't wait for the battle between Jon/Sansa and the Bolton's.

One final part of confusion. It appears Edmure was ready to die before helping Jamie when he was tied up. Yet, Jamie says he's going to toss his son into the castle and Edmure completely agrees to sell out the Blackfish? Why would he be at all attached to that kid? He was basically the result of a sham marriage with his enemy (the Fray's) and he hadn't seen him since he was born. It's just odd that Edmure went from "ready to die for the Tully name" to "oh, crap, let me hand over my entire house so that you don't kill a bastard child I've never seen that was born by a sham marriage with my enemy". Is there something else I'm missing here?

[Kodos]

I'm a big Arya fan, but her story has been a lowlight this season. I enjoyed her time with the Hound.

[Coffee Warlord]

Bear in mind, Edmure isn't exactly the Blackfish. He's been previously established as a fairly weak-willed individual, who's screwed the pooch more than a couple of times. It fits decently that he could talk a big game, but with enough carrot and stick from Jaime, he's the kind of person who would indeed cave easily enough.

At least I can provide a reasonable explanation for that plotline. Unlike certain others.

[Radii]

I agree w/ pretty much everything you said Arles. Its weird, I liked last night's episode, because I love Arya, I love the Hound, I love Tyrion, Brienne when she's interacting with Bronn and Jaime. Jaime's one on one moments with others are almost always noteworthy and highly enjoyable. All true last night.

But the resolution to the Arya story is not satisfying in any way and Arya's behavior the last two episodes is infuriating, the story they told over the last two epsidoes with her is extremely weak. The Blackfish is so blatantly obviously right about his statements about Edmure, letting them back into Riverrun makes some sense, but do they really just instantly surrender like that just b/c the guy who has been captive with the freys forever says to? Because the climax to this season is pretty obviously the battle for Winterfell, I assumed Riverrun would be resolved pretty quickly and without an expensive battle, but even so, it didn't feel quite right. The 'important' parts there with Brienne and Jaime were great and that worked for me, so that's good. But the rest of it just felt off.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I thought that Arya faked the reopened wounds - the tumble through the market with the one exaggerated shot of the crushed fruit made me think she was much more in control of that chase than it appeared. Add in the fact that she just walked away from Jaquen with no limp or pain whatsoever at the end of the scene, and this becomes even more believable. Much more subtle than they usually are about this sort of thing, so maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I like it better that way.

I still absolutely hate how easily she was found/stabbed by the waif, but my interpretation of the chase at least softens that blow a little. You could even argue that Arya was trying to lull her into a false sense of superiority by letting herself get stabbed, playing into the waif's preconception of Arya as hopeless... But I think that may be going a little too far.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Then again, a lot of my judgement depends upon what Danaerys's next move is. If she goes scorched earth and all of Tyrion's work is for naught... Well then yeah, all of that sucked.

Unless all that dallying was to show just how out of depth he is out of Westeros... but still, yeah... it sucked.

Though I think Dany may be doing a big heel turn and will feed Tyrion to the dragons for his "deal".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

One final part of confusion. It appears Edmure was ready to die before helping Jamie when he was tied up. Yet, Jamie says he's going to toss his son into the castle and Edmure completely agrees to sell out the Blackfish? Why would he be at all attached to that kid? He was basically the result of a sham marriage with his enemy (the Fray's) and he hadn't seen him since he was born. It's just odd that Edmure went from "ready to die for the Tully name" to "oh, crap, let me hand over my entire house so that you don't kill a bastard child I've never seen that was born by a sham marriage with my enemy". Is there something else I'm missing here?

I think it was the sincerity and passion he saw in Jamie's eyes when he talked about killing every single Tully, including catapulting his only heir into the walls. Remember, this is a family that utterly blotted out another high born family - which is why the Rains of Castamere is so chilling. Rather than have his entire family be destroyed and Riverrun razed to the ground, Edmure decides to yield. I know it's been portrayed as what a weak willed loser, but really, IMO, Edmure makes the more intelligent choice while the Blackfish would have led to the destruction of the Tully house and lands and complete disaster.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Though I think Dany may be doing a big heel turn and will feed Tyrion to the dragons for his "deal".

Not a bookreader but....

Spoiler

I recall a theory thrown out there about Tyrion possibly being part of the 3 (I forget the story exactly). But that the 3 were perhaps going to be the 3 dragon riders that restore the order of fire & ice and were speculated to be Dany, JS (via his biological father)...and Tyrion, who they speculated was the result of Aerys (presumably) raping his mother. And that this also supports the reasons Tywin never really cared for him as his son, any more than how Tyrion reflected on the Lannister name.

So if that punishment comes to fruition, it might be an interesting twist...or a complete debunk of that theory.

[Ryno]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Spoiler

What makes you think the Lady Stoneheart angle is dead? I've long suspected that she's the big reveal/dramatic cliffhanger at the end of episode 10.

Spoiler

I don't have any guess on whether or not she's going to be revealed, but it's unlikely to be the last scene. So far this season, the last scene has been indicated by the title of the episode (reddit).

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Book spoilers ahead (in response to Atocep):

Spoiler

What makes you think the Lady Stoneheart angle is dead? I've long suspected that she's the big reveal/dramatic cliffhanger at the end of episode 10.

Spoiler

Can't Thoros only revive one person at a time? If Dondarrion is still alive then Lady Stoneheart can't exist. And it's been months, if not years, since she died...I don't think there's any reanimating her at this point

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Spoiler

Can't Thoros only revive one person at a time? If Dondarrion is still alive then Lady Stoneheart can't exist. And it's been months, if not years, since she died...I don't think there's any reanimating her at this point

Spoiler

These are the reasons I say there isn't going to be a lady stoneheart. As soon as I saw Beric I just assumed that possibility was gone.

The Hound getting in with the brotherhood was a good opportunity to introduce her and send him on a path of redemption (or justice) that ended in fighting The Mountain. With Beric alive it's not going to happen.

[thesloppy]

I too hated the waif/arya angle. The waif moved exactly as if she had been cast in a Terminator movie, "Okay, start looking at the ground, but raise your head slowly and then look to the side like a robot. Now start walking slowly, gradually picking up speed until you're running, and leap with the strength of your mechanical bones! They've never seen anything like this before!" Snore.

Also the half-assed report of the Blackfish dying in battle has to take the cake for lamest off-screen deaths. He tosses off some grandiose shit about making one final stand in his home, and the result is some extra telling us "uhhh, he died". Excellent.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Also the half-assed report of the Blackfish dying in battle has to take the cake for lamest off-screen deaths. He tosses off some grandiose shit about making one final stand in his home, and the result is some extra telling us "uhhh, he died". Excellent.

Yeah they could have at least given us the obligatory farewell scene of the Blackfish being surrounded and telling them "let's do this boys" type of cutaway. Cheesy but more fitting.

[Ned Doolittle]

Wouldn't the Lannister army have had orders to take Blackfish alive? What would've been better is after taking the castle and capturing Blackfish Jaime pulls him aside and says "go north with 100 of your men and help your niece. If you try to do anything silly like taking this castle back I'll slaughter the rest of your army."

[thesloppy]

I guess the Blackfish's unceremonious death announcement leaves open the possibility that he was let go and isn't dead at all, but that still doesn't win any points for presentation.

[whomario]

I found it very logically actually. Hes an old man not having fought for years, he likely was slaughtered quickly. Showing it served no purpose ... that little look we saw from Jamie however did. Hes not exactly threatening to be the shows moral touchstone, but hes doing a good facsimile in a way.

Its not like he was a major character on the show, people tend to expect the show runners doing Martins work before he gets to it. If hes a major character in the books, he will get a great de sendoff there i would assume ...

[molson]

Originally Posted by whomario

I found it very logically actually. Hes an old man not having fought for years, he likely was slaughtered quickly. Showing it served no purpose ... that little look we saw from Jamie however did. Hes not exactly threatening to be the shows moral touchstone, but hes doing a good facsimile in a way.

Ya, it's hard to explain but if felt right to me too. The whole Riverrun thing was not about the Blackfish, it was about Jaime - his contrasting reactions to Brienne and Edmure set the tone for the entire thing, and then we get the conclusion from his perspective.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by whomario

I found it very logically actually. Hes an old man not having fought for years, he likely was slaughtered quickly. Showing it served no purpose ... that little look we saw from Jamie however did. Hes not exactly threatening to be the shows moral touchstone, but hes doing a good facsimile in a way.

I suppose it made sense logically, but it certainly didn't do the character any favors. They spent some time and effort building up towards making the Blackfish look like a crafty old warrior at the least....he's ready to hold that siege for literally years, the Freys couldn't break him, Jaime knows him by name and reputation, Littlefinger mentioned him and his army specifically to Sansa, and Sansa sought him out. That all made sense until it was his time to die, at which point he apparently became a frail old man with no military sense who thought "I would much rather go up these stairs and unquestionably die poorly, for absolutely no purpose at all, than to get in this boat right here, and use my skills to help my blood in a military campaign."

[Landshark44]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I suppose it made sense logically, but it certainly didn't do the character any favors. They spent some time and effort building up towards making the Blackfish look like a crafty old warrior at the least....he's ready to hold that siege for literally years, the Freys couldn't break him, Jaime knows him by name and reputation, Littlefinger mentioned him and his army specifically to Sansa, and Sansa sought him out. That all made sense until it was his time to die, at which point he apparently became a frail old man with no military sense who thought "I would much rather go up these stairs and unquestionably die poorly, for absolutely no purpose at all, than to get in this boat right here, and use my skills to help my blood in a military campaign."

well said...

[Ned Doolittle]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I suppose it made sense logically, but it certainly didn't do the character any favors. They spent some time and effort building up towards making the Blackfish look like a crafty old warrior at the least....he's ready to hold that siege for literally years, the Freys couldn't break him, Jaime knows him by name and reputation, Littlefinger mentioned him and his army specifically to Sansa, and Sansa sought him out. That all made sense until it was his time to die, at which point he apparently became a frail old man with no military sense who thought "I would much rather go up these stairs and unquestionably die poorly, for absolutely no purpose at all, than to get in this boat right here, and use my skills to help my blood in a military campaign."

We can safely end this discussion on this episodes handling of Blackfish's death now.

So...Mountain ripping off that guy's head was pretty cool, huh?

[thesloppy]

I'm not done grousing about that scene yet!

The Blackfish is one thing, but try to rationalize Brienne's character in that scene:

She arrives at a Lannister siege, daring outright death just for being seen, engages Jaime, negotiates the terms for ending the siege, and let's him know that she will be fighting against him if the Blackfish remains. She then enters the fort (as a potential spy and enemy combatant) and argues with the Blackfish as he repeatedly dismisses her, unrelenting until he reads Sansa's call for help, which she considers her personal mission.

Then in the boat scene, Blackfish decides "You know what....I'm just gonna go up these stairs and die, instead of helping Sansa." and she hesitates for a second, and then he's all "you'll serve her better than I ever could." which is apparently enough to convince Brienne that "You're right old dude, since every lord in Westeros can clearly only have a single knight in their service, and since I also clearly enjoy commanding others, to the point that I'm always talking about how much I just fucking love working with, and commanding as many people as someone could possibly gather together, that makes a lot of sense. I'm sure Sansa would agree. Enjoy your meaningless death, old fellow!" Then some extra we've never seen before, and will never see again, announces "he died" and shuffles off screen. Comical. Where's the logic in that?

[Groundhog]

Assuming Arya just rides back to Westeros, I still think her whole storyline since she left Westeros was a complete waste of time. She learnt to fight well in the dark, and that she's Arya Stark? OK, cool. I'd rather have all that time spent on her story and the faceless man on just about anything else related to the main plot. Seems like there would have been better ways to handle that. That was my feeling the whole way through, in both the show and the books, and my only hope was that the destination made the journey worthwhile, which it didn't.

If the adventures of Arya and the redemption seeking Hound had stretched on for a few more season though? Yeah, I'm on board with that. That was one of my favourite arcs, and seems like there's nothing Arya knows now that she couldn't have learnt on that adventure.

[thesloppy]

I don't want to forget another fabulous show of might by the Unsullied, the most feared fighting force in the world! If anything comes through that door one of us will totally stab it...well, unless it has a mask on, or it's in a hallway, or it's outside, or there's more than one of them, then all bets are off!

[Ned Doolittle]

Arya's storyline would have been much cooler had she left for Braavos and the last thing we see of her in season 5 is Jaquen opening the door and her walking through it and the door shutting. Then when we finally see her again it's the season 6 finale and we see her getting off the boat at a Westeros dock. Maybe at the start of season 7 you can show her getting into a fight and quickly disposing of the other person. It'd be a real "holy shit what the hell did Arya learn from Jaquen - she's a total badass!". I would've loved that storyline. But nope. We got a season of "what's your name?" "I'm no one."

[Chief Rum]

I feel like I'm the only one enjoying the current season, at least from reading this thread.

[Groundhog]

It seems to be the consensus, but I'd say I'm actually enjoying this series more than the last 2. The first 3-4 episodes in particular were dynamite.

[thesloppy]

It's hard to say I'm not necessarily enjoying....but I'm not enjoying it for it's writing any more, that's for sure. It still looks great, is well acted, and has boobs, dragons & swords! This season even came with a bonus crumpled up, warty penis!

[RainMaker]

I have disliked just about everything Arya has been involved in since the Hound.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I feel like I'm the only one enjoying the current season, at least from reading this thread.

Nah, I'm still enjoying it greatly. The show certainly has some problems due to the sprawling cast and vast number of settings, and the resolution with Arya over the last two episodes felt really week, but it felt weak *because* this is normally a really solid show, so the holes there stood out against the rest of the good stuff they do. That's ok, there's way more good than bad.

I fully expect to be enthralled by a spectacular action episode this week and then to see some exciting setup for the next season to be laid out in the finale.

[PilotMan]

I enjoy all the episodes and try not to read into too much, but like many of the book readers I get distracted when I think of how much got cut, or why the story lines feel like they have so many holes sometimes. Things just get skipped over, or things don't get the attention and quality service that the books gave them, ala Arya.

I was very disappointed in how her whole sequence has gone. I keep getting excited for something that even touches the depth the books gave her, but if that was all they were going to do they could have sent her the way of Rickon. No wolf dreams, no learning how to become an assassin, just be blind, and now you're not, now kill someone, now I'll kill you, now you're leaving. The writing was weak and lost and they had no idea how to develop it.

The break from the books has been good and bad. It allowed them the freedom to travel in a new direction with the characters, and tie up some of the loose ends here and there that they had opened, but in the meantime they've also gotten sloppy, by going for the show scene rather than developing the story, which had been given to them because of the other books.

So I think a lot of the dissatisfaction just comes from super, incredibly high expectations that are unfulfilled. I will watch every episode and curse when the end credits roll simply because I want MOOOOOOOOOAAAR! I just want every episode to be fucking incredible, and when they aren't or they leave something else off it's irritating.

The whole thing is a Skinner Box, same as the WWE. You know just how good it can be and you're often rewarded, but when it misses you go back again ready to catch that reward that JUST HAS TO BE THERE!

[jeff061]

Episode started out good, reminiscent of the glory days. Jamie, Tyrion, Brienne, the mountain, all great and loved the dialogue.

Then Arya, ugh. The well discussed prancing happily around, surviving a deep knife wound to the gut, stumbling out of bed and then Usain Bolting parkour style and worst of all "Terminator Waif".

Sloppy. Lazy. Just ugh. I don't want to say her time in Braavos was a total waste of time, presumably these experiences are what have turned her from a child to a true killer with a positive moral compass. It was just painful how it ended.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

It's hard to say I'm not necessarily enjoying....but I'm not enjoying it for it's writing any more, that's for sure. It still looks great, is well acted, and has boobs, dragons & swords! This season even came with a bonus crumpled up, warty penis!

This. It's become very... pulpy I guess is the word. The showrunners seem to have no real idea how to write their own plots and do far better with adapting Martin's. And now the show is just racing through plot not really caring about the plot holes they are dropping left and right.

Oh well, still good cinematography, good acting, characters that I like, etc. Though I still stick to my view that the TV show is basically now a (mostly) good fanfic of the books.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I feel like I'm the only one enjoying the current season, at least from reading this thread.

Outside of the clumsy last two weeks regarding Arya - I've enjoyed it. I'm hopeful that the Jon-Ramsey bout combined with the Kings Landing drama will result in a strong season.

[stevew]

I think it's an enjoyable show at times, but it is also frustrating and I think they could have streamlined the show much better. Far too many characters for a TV show and only 10 episodes per season.

Like really, if Dany was completely not in the show I feel like it would be a far superior show.

[HomerSimpson98]

Count me as one severely disappointed by this season. And I came into it seriously amped with the way last season ended.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by stevew

I think it's an enjoyable show at times, but it is also frustrating and I think they could have streamlined the show much better. Far too many characters for a TV show and only 10 episodes per season.

Like really, if Dany was completely not in the show I feel like it would be a far superior show.

That´s why its a near impossible show to make and make really good. Because i bet the other 50% of viewers are "really, really missing" this or that character from the books and think a dozen others don´t get enough screen time (and of course, not the same ones missing or the same with too little screen time )

IMO people get too hung up on getting conclusions and getting to find out the end. I´d like to compare it to HIMYM in that regard

[Ned Doolittle]

It seems the sole purpose of this season was to get to the final two episodes.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm gonna laugh if the big battle is 15 minutes of posturing, 5 minutes of the battle starting, and then the white walkers just overrun everyone.

[sabotai]

I understand the disappointment with Arya's storyline, but I've enjoyed it. Her conflict has always been about her identity, and it's hard to do internal conflict well on screen. In the first book, she struggles with how everyone keeps trying to make her a lady when she wants no part of that.

She goes to the House of Black and White to learn skills to help her get revenge on her family's enemies, but they demand she give up her identity as a Stark (as well as her desire for revenge, since that is part of her identity) and she just can't do that. Her hiding Needle was a pretty big tell that she wasn't going to be in it for the long haul and that she would always be Arya Stark.

"A girl is Arya Stark of WInterfell. And I am going home." was the resolution to that conflict, and I thought it was awesome (as awesome as resolutions to internal conflict can be on screen).

Now that she's headed to Winterfell and "fast travel" has been enabled on the show, I'm eager to see what happens when Arya Stark of Winterfell meets back up with Jon, Sansa and Melisandre (who told Arya "we will meet again" when she took Gendry) before the end of the season and how they all interact. Perhaps she'll be so disillusioned with the idea of having to become a lady again, that after she satisfies her revenge or lets it go (next season), she'll head back to the House of Black and White for good fully prepared this time to truly become no one.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Now that she's headed to Winterfell and "fast travel" has been enabled on the show,

Hehe. Littlefinger is most guilty of this crime. Brienne and Pod spent like two seasons wandering the woods looking for Sansa, but Littlefinger's at the Vale one day, and Castle Black the next. He should just start randomly wandering into the frame of every fourth scene, wherever it may be.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Hehe. Littlefinger is most guilty of this crime. Brienne and Pod spent like two seasons wandering the woods looking for Sansa, but Littlefinger's at the Vale one day, and Castle Black the next. He should just start randomly wandering into the frame of every fourth scene, wherever it may be.

That was so egregiously bad.

[thesloppy]

Considering the heavy significance of the actress playing Cersei in Arya's story-line, it seems like Cersei is most likely going to end up as Arya's ultimate target, yes? There seems to be a lot of twisting going on to the themes of love & family, and it seemed like we saw Arya slightly struggle with the idea of Cersei as a human after seeing the love for her children presented (albeit in the form of a stage play)...so maybe she doesn't necessarily end up killing Cersei, but it seems like their endings will be particularly intertwined. Is that vibe obvious, or am I inventing it?