Yet another school shooting.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like I said, mass shootings are the new America's pasttime. If he was alive, we could get him to sign it with a certificate of authenticity. Maybe PSA could grade it too.

Bah, everybody has beaten me to the Harlan Crow joke.

[cuervo72]

Oh, and the water bottle thing is probably just setting the table for justifying the shooting of protesters if they throw frozen water bottles.

[Lathum]

Further justification for not being allowed to hand out bottles of water to voters in line to vote. Checkmate libs

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Further justification for not being allowed to hand out bottles of water to voters in line to vote. Checkmate libs

They should hand out guns to voters standing in line

[RainMaker]

In a normal country, this would involve CPS.

Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD), addressing the NRA-ILA Leadership Forum, says her nearly 2-year-old granddaughter “already has a shotgun, and she already has a rifle.” pic.twitter.com/d7V4Kslmo3

— The Recount (@therecount) April 14, 2023

[miami_fan]

Question about gun law. With states going to permit less carry laws, does that mean there is no longer a distinction between legal and illegal gun ownership?

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Question about gun law. With states going to permit less carry laws, does that mean there is no longer a distinction between legal and illegal gun ownership?

Seems like the issue will be pretty black and white.

[NobodyHere]

So why aren't we giving guns to teenagers?

https://apnews.com/article/dadeville...71eaee7febb161

[Lathum]

The shootings rocked the city of 3,200 residents, which is about 57 miles (92 kilometers) northeast of Montgomery, Alabama.

Weird. The GOP and Fox news tell me these incidents only happen in the democratic run cities.

[cuervo72]

At some point this will have to happen enough times in their own communities that enough of them get tired of it, right?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Question about gun law. With states going to permit less carry laws, does that mean there is no longer a distinction between legal and illegal gun ownership?

Not sure if I'm missing a nuance here but I don't see how?

You still need to acquire the weapon legally. Regardless if you carry or not, with or without a permit, you still need to acquire the weapon legally.

There's the gun show loophole, and another with passing firearms to family & friends without a background check. But those loopholes existed before the more recent lax (okay, non existent) carry regulations.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not sure if I'm missing a nuance here but I don't see how?

You still need to acquire the weapon legally. Regardless if you carry or not, with or without a permit, you still need to acquire the weapon legally.

There's the gun show loophole, and another with passing firearms to family & friends without a background check. But those loopholes existed before the more recent lax (okay, non existent) carry regulations.

What does "acquire the weapon legally" mean though? If I have a weapon, what is the tell that I did not acquired the weapon legally? No one outside of the military has ever asked for proof of purchase for the weapons I own though I do have them or whether there was a three day wait in between purchase and delivery.

The reason I ask is based on conversations I had with a friend who used to work in law enforcement regarding the permit less carry laws. He was saying that the one of the triggers (no pun intended) to investigate whether a weapon was acquired legally was whether it was registered to the possessor and/or if the possessor had a permit. With both those things now off the books at least here in Florida, I was just curious as to what the distinction was in both a legal and practical sense in what is legal and what is illegal.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not sure if I'm missing a nuance here but I don't see how?

You still need to acquire the weapon legally. Regardless if you carry or not, with or without a permit, you still need to acquire the weapon legally.

There's the gun show loophole, and another with passing firearms to family & friends without a background check. But those loopholes existed before the more recent lax (okay, non existent) carry regulations.

Without backgrounds checks or closing the gun show loophole as long as you are white there is realistically no difference. Trying to define getting a gun illegally is a lot harder to define is all I will say.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

What does "acquire the weapon legally" mean though? If I have a weapon, what is the tell that I did not acquired the weapon legally? No one outside of the military has ever asked for proof of purchase for the weapons I own though I do have them or whether there was a three day wait in between purchase and delivery.

In GA at least, you need to pass a background check to buy a gun (loopholes notwithstanding). There's an age limitation and if you are a felon.

Q: What is required to purchase a firearm in the state of Georgia?
A: You will need a valid state-issued ID. Many Federal Firearms Licensees will not transfer long guns to out-of-state residents. This is due to the Federal Firearms Licensee?s requirement to uphold your resident state?s gun laws, and the inherent complexity associated with many states. Federal Firearms Licensee?s are prohibited by federal law from transferring hand guns to out-of-state residents.

Q: Do I have to pass a background check when purchasing a firearm from a Dealer?
A: You will be required to pass a background check when purchasing a firearm from a dealer. However, if you possess a valid Georgia Weapons License, your Georgia Weapons License will suffice as your background check. You will be required to show your state issued ID and your Georgia Weapons License in order to avoid the background check. Some firearms businesses may require a background check even if you have a GWL but it is not required by law. It is instead the business’ practices.

The 2 loopholes I can think of are 1) gun shows 2) transferring weapons as gifts.

However, these 2 loopholes existed long before GA didn't need a carry license. Therefore, from how I understand your question, the carry issue didn't cause the issue of "legal or illegal gun ownership".

The reason I ask is based on conversations I had with a friend who used to work in law enforcement regarding the permit less carry laws. He was saying that the one of the triggers (no pun intended) to investigate whether a weapon was acquired legally was whether it was registered to the possessor and/or if the possessor had a permit. With both those things now off the books at least here in Florida, I was just curious as to what the distinction was in both a legal and practical sense in what is legal and what is illegal.

IMO, I'd say a trigger to investigate is if the person/weapon was suspected of a criminal activity?

With that said, I am not an advocate of open carry in urban areas. I can rationalize that out in the Montana boonies etc. but no reason at Krogers. I do support concealed carry with a permit ... but that is not where we are in GA.

May have shared this story previously. I was walking into my Kroger and there was a guy with an open carry, holstered weapon on his belt putting the groceries into the trunk. Perfectly "normal" looking guy, just wanted to express his new found rights I guess. I've encountered that several more times now but that was the first time.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

IMO, I'd say a trigger to investigate is if the person/weapon was suspected of a criminal activity?

So you have not been asked to provide a permit for the weapon in your vehicle, huh?

[Ksyrup]

We had a guy walking his dog in our neighborhood holstered up a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure he brought the gun instead of a bag to pick up his dog's shit because, you know, who's going to be stupid enough to confront an armed dog walker about not picking up the poop in the yard?

[RainMaker]

When I was traveling, I saw a guy at a Panda Express with what I think was an AR-15 on his back. I just don't get how terrified some people are of the world.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So you have not been asked to provide a permit for the weapon in your vehicle, huh?

Not sure I understand your questioning but taking it on face value ...

In GA, I do not need to have a gun permit nor do I need a carry license. I just need to purchase the weapon legally e.g. buy at gun store, they do a background check, and I'm out the door in < 30 min or so.

When I've bought a weapon and took it home, or when I go to a gun range, I always have the weapon in the trunk. I've not been stopped for speeding or anything since college days but don't think it's SOP for police to ask unless they felt they had a reason to.

If I was stopped for speeding, per GA law, I don't need to volunteer that I have a weapon on me, trunk, glove compartment etc. But if I had the weapon case visible in the passenger side or holstered to my belt, I would make darn sure my hands were on the steering wheel, volunteer the info anyway (just smart thing to do), and comply with any police request.

The bottom line. You do not need to volunteer any information. But comply with instructions & answer any questions from the police in any situation (regardless if you have a gun in the car) ... without smart mouthing or any sudden movements.


Additional note. When I was in Arkansas for college, it was a normal to see shotguns and hunting rifles in a gun rack in a truck. College buddies and I would have our weapons in the car when we went shooting. We kept the weapons on campus (I believe that was allowed or at least not enforced).

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Not sure I understand your questioning but taking it on face value ...

In GA, I do not need to have a gun permit nor do I need a carry license. I just need to purchase the weapon legally e.g. buy at gun store, they do a background check, and I'm out the door in < 30 min or so.

It is a sincere question. You have outlined a gun purchase process in GA. Let's put it this way. There is no requirement for a gun permit, a carry license or a background check to carry the weapon. There is also no requirement that a person purchase a weapon from a licensed gun dealer which is the only place required to do background checks so there is really no requirement for a background check if you don't want to have one done. All those things at one point in time were the distinctions that made gun purchases legal and not doing those things or having those things in place made gun purchases illegal. It seems to me the only distinction between a legal and illegal gun purchase now is if I insist on purchasing a gun from a licensed gun dealer but I do not get a background check. However that does not seem to be a case of me breaking the law, that seems to be a case of the licensed dealer breaking the law. I am not saying that getting rid of the concealed carry permit removed the distinction entirely But with it gone, I just don't know how the authorities go about making the distinction.

When I've bought a weapon and took it home, or when I go to a gun range, I always have the weapon in the trunk. I've not been stopped for speeding or anything since college days but don't think it's SOP for police to ask unless they felt they had a reason to.

If I was stopped for speeding, per GA law, I don't need to volunteer that I have a weapon on me, trunk, glove compartment etc. But if I had the weapon case visible in the passenger side or holstered to my belt, I would make darn sure my hands were on the steering wheel, volunteer the info anyway (just smart thing to do), and comply with any police request.

The bottom line. You do not need to volunteer any information. But comply with instructions & answer any questions from the police in any situation (regardless if you have a gun in the car) ... without smart mouthing or any sudden movements.


Additional note. When I was in Arkansas for college, it was a normal to see shotguns and hunting rifles in a gun rack in a truck. College buddies and I would have our weapons in the car when we went shooting. We kept the weapons on campus (I believe that was allowed or at least not enforced).

I can't speak to whatever the SOP for the police are supposed to be in those situations. About ten years ago, Panama City Beach police asked me if I had a gun in the car during a traffic stop. I don't know if I had the right to not volunteer the information. I do know that for someone that looks me, not volunteering that information is not right. I said yes and I asked to show my gun permit which I did. I asked out legal center on base if that was legal, they said yes the police are allowed to make sure you are legally allowed to carry the gun.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I can't speak to whatever the SOP for the police are supposed to be in those situations. About ten years ago, Panama City Beach police asked me if I had a gun in the car during a traffic stop. I don't know if I had the right to not volunteer the information. I do know that for someone that looks me, not volunteering that information is not right.

I make a distinction between volunteering and answering a question.

Yeah, don't know what the FL rules were back then about volunteering. But think you have an obligation to answer the question if posed by a LEO. If you do not answer the question, the LEO has every right to be suspicious.

I said yes and I asked to show my gun permit which I did. I asked out legal center on base if that was legal, they said yes the police are allowed to make sure you are legally allowed to carry the gun.

I think I see your point.

According to below, up to 22% of gun sales or transfers in the 2 year period were done without background check.

PolitiFact | What percentage of gun sales are done without a background check?

22 percent overall said they obtained the guns without a background check. But that includes guns that were purchased or received in another way, such as through a gift or an inheritance.

13 percent who purchased firearms -- for example, from a friend or online -- said they had done so without a background check.

So if you were in the 22%, how would a LEO determine if your weapon was legally acquired or not.

Great question, didn't think about that angle. I don't know if they really can easily as there is not a 100% database due to the loopholes.

I think the rebuttal from the NRA is why do LEOs need to determine if your weapons was legally acquired or not if you are not under suspicion (e.g. normal traffic stop would not fall under that category).

If you are under suspicion, I think they would try to trace the chain of ownership which admittedly would be difficult if it went through private sale(s). Start with the serial # and then trace from there.

[Ksyrup]

Hey look, another good guy with a gun!

Kaylin Gillis: A 20-year-old woman was shot and killed in upstate New York after accidentally turning into the wrong driveway, officials say | CNN

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When I was traveling, I saw a guy at a Panda Express with what I think was an AR-15 on his back. I just don't get how terrified some people are of the world.

Literally inside a Panda Express strapped with an AR-15?

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Literally inside a Panda Express strapped with an AR-15?

I left a dog park Saturday because there was a guy walking around with an AR strapped behind him. I'll never understand it.

[BYU 14]

SMH, I can't imagine being so insecure that I had to wear a literal combat rifle in public to show what a badass I am. "Hey look at me, exercising my 2A rights and keeping the poodles safe.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I make a distinction between volunteering and answering a question.

Yeah, don't know what the FL rules were back then about volunteering. But think you have an obligation to answer the question if posed by a LEO. If you do not answer the question, the LEO has every right to be suspicious.


I think I see your point.

According to below, up to 22% of gun sales or transfers in the 2 year period were done without background check.

PolitiFact | What percentage of gun sales are done without a background check?


So if you were in the 22%, how would a LEO determine if your weapon was legally acquired or not.

Great question, didn't think about that angle. I don't know if they really can easily as there is not a 100% database due to the loopholes.

I think the rebuttal from the NRA is why do LEOs need to determine if your weapons was legally acquired or not if you are not under suspicion (e.g. normal traffic stop would not fall under that category).

If you are under suspicion, I think they would try to trace the chain of ownership which admittedly would be difficult if it went through private sale(s). Start with the serial # and then trace from there.

So 22% of Guns sales is approximately 4.6 million guns per year. Yikes.

[bryce]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Hey look, another good guy with a gun!

Kaylin Gillis: A 20-year-old woman was shot and killed in upstate New York after accidentally turning into the wrong driveway, officials say | CNN

very similar to this story:

White Kansas City man, 84, charged for shooting Black teen who went to wrong house | Reuters

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

So 22% of Guns sales is approximately 4.6 million guns per year. Yikes.

Per the article, I believe it was family/friend transfer + gun sales = 22%.

If just gun sales, it was 13%. So from a Forbes article ...

Americans bought about 19.9 million firearms last year (2021), down 12.5% from 2020, according to one industry estimate — but 2021 was still the industry’s second-busiest year on record, as politics and public health continue to drive interest in owning guns.

Approx 19.9M x 13% = 2.6M gun sales occurred in 2021 without a background check

Obviously, still a very significant number.

[miami_fan]

[quote=Edward64;3398930
So if you were in the 22%, how would a LEO determine if your weapon was legally acquired or not.

Great question, didn't think about that angle. I don't know if they really can easily as there is not a 100% database due to the loopholes.

I think the rebuttal from the NRA is why do LEOs need to determine if your weapons was legally acquired or not if you are not under suspicion (e.g. normal traffic stop would not fall under that category).

If you are under suspicion, I think they would try to trace the chain of ownership which admittedly would be difficult if it went through private sale(s). Start with the serial # and then trace from there.[/QUOTE]

If we take away the means to determine if weapons are legally acquired or not, it makes no difference if you are under suspicion or not. If there is no way to determine if it was legally acquired or not, there is no distinction between legal or illegal gun purchase as far as I can tell.

If we have decided that we either can not make that determination without infringing on the 2nd amendment or we no longer have any interest in making that determination for whatever reason, it is what it is. I just don't see a legitimate reason to attempt to make the distinction at this point.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

If we take away the means to determine if weapons are legally acquired or not, it makes no difference if you are under suspicion or not. If there is no way to determine if it was legally acquired or not, there is no distinction between legal or illegal gun purchase as far as I can tell.

I don't agree with your premise. The means to determine if a weapon are legally acquired or not still exists, it has not been removed/taken away.

Using Politifact metrics, for at least 78-87% it is relatively easy as the background check exist. For the other 13-22%, it is more difficult. It is not instantaneous (e.g. cop calling it in after a car was stopped) but it can still be done for some of the 13-22%.

If we have decided that we either can not make that determination without infringing on the 2nd amendment or we no longer have any interest in making that determination for whatever reason, it is what it is. I just don't see a legitimate reason to attempt to make the distinction at this point.

I assume you are referring the NRA as believing background checks infringe on the 2nd amendment? (can't think of anyone else that may believe background checks infringes)

I'm not a card carrying NRA and don't bother studying their materials. But from what I remember, the NRA supports background check but does not support expanded background checks. So they are happy with status quo (e.g. gun show and family/friend transfer) and the 13-22% that gets to buy/sell/transfer weapons without a background check.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Literally inside a Panda Express strapped with an AR-15?

Yeah, just waiting in line. It was on my way out East in Ohio. Think Youngstown or something like that. Was awhile ago and I think a lot of chains now have no guns allowed signs out front.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Hey look, another good guy with a gun!

Kaylin Gillis: A 20-year-old woman was shot and killed in upstate New York after accidentally turning into the wrong driveway, officials say | CNN

Feels like we're going to have a rough time as a generation of folks who grew up huffing lead paint are armed to the teeth and being told to be terrified of everything.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When I was traveling, I saw a guy at a Panda Express with what I think was an AR-15 on his back. I just don't get how terrified some people are of the world.

So you stopped in for some General Tso's Clickin'?

[HerRealName]

Scary cheerleaders require deadly force.

https://abc13.com/woodlands-elite-ch...sted/13150502/

[Lathum]

Was there ever a doubt this would be the result of these disastrous laws? Or lack of laws.

[GrantDawg]

Got to protect the real victims of gun violence...

Following a deadly school shooting last month, Republican lawmakers in Tennessee on Tuesday approved a proposal to give gun and ammunition dealers, manufacturers and sellers more protection against lawsuits. https://t.co/j5NZsqqd3N

— The Associated Press (@AP) April 19, 2023

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Per the article, I believe it was family/friend transfer + gun sales = 22%.

If just gun sales, it was 13%. So from a Forbes article ...



Approx 19.9M x 13% = 2.6M gun sales occurred in 2021 without a background check

Obviously, still a very significant number.

Whether actual money sale or family/ friend transfer to me still is the same. IMHO. YMMV.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

So you stopped in for some General Tso's Clickin'?

They don’t offer that dish.

[Lathum]

Guys!

I pulled in to my driveway today and a guy got out of his truck that was parked in front of my house. He wanted to give me a card for his power washing business and I didn't shoot him!! Go me!!

[Kodos]

I hope you at least stood your ground.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I pulled in to my driveway today and a guy got out of his truck that was parked in front of my house. He wanted to give me a card for his power washing business and I didn't shoot him!! Go me!!

While I am amazed at your restraint, this person could have posed a threat to your life and I cannot imagine being so foolish as to not meet them with lethal force the moment they take a step towards me.

[Ksyrup]

Shoot first, sign up for lawn care later, I always say.

[Lathum]

oh. I forgot to mention he was dark skinned in my town that is 92.6% white. We dont really have "those people" here.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Guys!

I pulled in to my driveway today and a guy got out of his truck that was parked in front of my house. He wanted to give me a card for his power washing business and I didn't shoot him!! Go me!!

what a role model you are Lathum!

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

oh. I forgot to mention he was dark skinned in my town that is 92.6% white. We dont really have "those people" here.

what? lawncare people? They are everywhere! Hate those fuckers. Especially those guys that go up to houses and say "That tree in your back yard is dead. Let us cut it down for you!"

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I hope you at least stood your ground.

Oh man. STOOD your ground. I keep getting it wrong. I SHOOT my ground.

[Edward64]

It was Covid when lawncare & other folks would ring/knock and step back from the door, like down my 2 steps. In retrospect, this is probably the safest thing to do nowadays.

[CrimsonFox]

Um....just what IS power washing? Is that like taking really intsense showers?

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

oh. I forgot to mention he was dark skinned in my town that is 92.6% white. We dont really have "those people" here.

Ping: Scott Adams

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So why aren't we giving guns to teenagers?

https://apnews.com/article/dadeville...71eaee7febb161

Or maybe there's a couple of teens who shouldn't have guns.

2 teens face murder charges for the Sweet 16 party massacre that left 4 dead and 32 injured, Alabama police say

[RainMaker]

Well armed militia protecting us from high school cheerleaders.


https://abc13.com/woodlands-elite-ch...sted/13150502/