Shooting at Connecticut School

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marmel

A church in newtown was just evacuated and exit ramps off the main highway into and out of the town are closed.

Looks like that wasn't Obama-related either.

http://onlineathens.com/breaking-new...-phoned-threat

NEWTOWN, Conn. — Worshippers hurriedly left a church Sunday when someone phoned in a threat as parishioners remembered 20 children and six adults who were massacred at an elementary school, but police later said nothing dangerous was found.

The threat interrupted a busy Mass and touched off a large police response days after the worst massacre of school-age children in U.S. history.

Halfway through the noon service at the St. Rose of Lima Church, the priest stopped and said, "Please, everybody leave. There is a threat," said worshipper Anna Wood of Oxford, Conn.

At least a dozen police in camouflage SWAT gear and carrying guns soon arrived. An Associated Press photographer saw police leave carrying something in a red tarp. Guns drawn, they searched the church and adjacent buildings.

Deborah Metz, a Trumbull police officer on the scene, gave the all-clear after about an hour. Police said the church would be on lockdown for the rest of the day.

Brian Wallace, spokesman for the diocese, said someone called and "threatened to disrupt the mass."

Gunman Adam Lanza, his mother and eight of the child victims attended St. Rose of Lima. It is a Roman Catholic Church with an adjacent school, which Lanza attended briefly.

The church hosted overflow crowds at all three morning Masses Sunday.

Wood said everyone left calmly but described a congregation on edge. One boy, about 9, left with his mother.

"He asked his mom, 'Mom, why are we leaving?'," Wood recalled. "The mom couldn't answer. She just started crying."

Nancy Elis lived in Newtown for 28 years before moving to nearby Southbury in 2006, but she was back Sunday to visit her former church.

With police searching the property, she said the scene looked like "a war zone."

"This is the house of God," she said, sobbing. "Why would they have to leave for fear for their lives? What's become of our nation?"

[Edward64]

Watching Piers Morgan with a pro-gun and anti-gun guest. The pro-gun guest is struggling. He should have stayed home.

[KWhit]

I'm late to this thread, but it seems like the mods are suppressing talk of gun control here. Is that true? It's hard to tell because posts have been deleted.

I see a lot of talk about "let them grieve before talking about this." WTF? Nobody's deleting posts about mental health care. I haven't seen one post here or anywhere else that says we should wait to discuss that!

A tragedy like this is the only time when any conversation is possible about limiting access to guns. Why shy away from that?

If I'm wrong about what has been modded out, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I'm late to this thread, but it seems like the mods are suppressing talk of gun control here. Is that true? It's hard to tell because posts have been deleted.

I see a lot of talk about "let them grieve before talking about this." WTF? Nobody's deleting posts about mental health care. I haven't seen one post here or anywhere else that says we should wait to discuss that!

A tragedy like this is the only time when any conversation is possible about limiting access to guns. Why shy away from that?

If I'm wrong about what has been modded out, I apologize, but that's what it sounds like.

Less than 24 hours after the tragedy, someone had already posted a thread that was essentially going to be (At best) a heated discussion about the politics of gun control.

It's a conversation that should be had, but at that particular moment in time, it was less than appropriate and was phrased in a manner that you just knew that unless the thread died entirely, would be a back and forth trollfest (tm).

Which isn't helpful, productive or frankly, respectful to the kids who had nothing to do with what happened to them.

Given the fact that the President has essentially launched the non-specific national conversation on the topic, it seems like it'd be fine to have that sort of discussion now. Not that it'll be any less of a trollfest (tm).

But no one is deleting posts or suppressing anything. There was one thread, started really early and that post was locked less than an hour into it shortly after the tragedy occurred.

P.S. There's a gun control conversation happening right now in the Obama Presidency thread.

[RedKingGold]

I'm pretty sure people were boxed for bitching about the moderating after a warning was posted that this thread would not be the time or place to bitch about the moderating.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I'm pretty sure people were boxed for bitching about the moderating after a warning was posted that this thread would not be the time or place to bitch about the moderating.

So, yeah. The conversation was suppressed. Got it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

Less than 24 hours after the tragedy, someone had already posted a thread that was essentially going to be (At best) a heated discussion about the politics of gun control.

It's a conversation that should be had, but at that particular moment in time, it was less than appropriate and was phrased in a manner that you just knew that unless the thread died entirely, would be a back and forth trollfest (tm).

Which isn't helpful, productive or frankly, respectful to the kids who had nothing to do with what happened to them.

Given the fact that the President has essentially launched the non-specific national conversation on the topic, it seems like it'd be fine to have that sort of discussion now. Not that it'll be any less of a trollfest (tm).

But no one is deleting posts or suppressing anything. There was one thread, started really early and that post was locked less than an hour into it shortly after the tragedy occurred.

P.S. There's a gun control conversation happening right now in the Obama Presidency thread.

That's not exactly true. There were posts deleted about some comment by Bill Maher for sure.

[TLK]

Originally Posted by KWhit

A tragedy like this is the only time when any conversation is possible about limiting access to guns. Why shy away from that?

Yup. I wish more people would see that.

[mckerney]

Should be surprising to absolutely no one.

Morgan Freeman hoax: actor denies statement about Newtown shooting, spokesman says

[thesloppy]

I don't particularly understand the line of thinking that not talking honestly and directly about the subject is somehow honoring the families or the grieving, regardless of timing....though I certainly can understand anybody who personally doesn't like being forced to discuss the issue, too soon, or otherwise.

I can only speak for myself, but my pops shot himself in the '80s, my cousin was shot by a mentally ill co-worker in 2004, I worked for five years at the mall that was shot up on Tuesday, and I still feel like I'm waiting for that conversation to start. I'm sure it'll be any day now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I worked for five years at the mall that was shot up on Tuesday

There was a mall shot up last week?

(FTR, I'm not being as flip as that sounds, I honestly don't recall hearing a thing about it)

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There was a mall shot up last week?

(FTR, I'm not being as flip as that sounds, I honestly don't recall hearing a thing about it)

Earlier in the week:
3 dead in Oregon mall shooting - CNN.com

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Earlier in the week:
3 dead in Oregon mall shooting - CNN.com

I vaguely recall hearing Clackamas in the news at some point last week, could not have told you why if you had offered me a large sum of cash.

[Blackadar]

Regardless of your position on this issue, there's just some basic decency to be had. I work with a bunch of right-winguts. Their first reaction to the shooting was shock and dismay...immediately followed by "I bet they're going to try to take our guns now". This wasn't the reaction of one person, but the reaction of 4 separate people at different times once they found out the news.

*shakes head*

Asswipes.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Regardless of your position on this issue, there's just some basic decency to be had. I work with a bunch of right-winguts. Their first reaction to the shooting was shock and dismay...immediately followed by "I bet they're going to try to take our guns now". This wasn't the reaction of one person, but the reaction of 4 separate people at different times once they found out the news.

That was the reaction of the whole table of people I was eating lunch with on Friday as the news was on where we were eating. We didn't even get the "shock and dismay"- it went straight to "Obama's going to take our guns".

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Regardless of your position on this issue, there's just some basic decency to be had. I work with a bunch of right-winguts. Their first reaction to the shooting was shock and dismay...immediately followed by "I bet they're going to try to take our guns now". This wasn't the reaction of one person, but the reaction of 4 separate people at different times once they found out the news. *shakes head*Asswipes.

And what happened? Obama alludes to it in his first tearful photo op speech*, Feinstein drops the details on Sunday before the first funeral takes place. {shrug} Not sure how accurately predicting the fairly obvious is a major issue but whatever.


*FWIW, I believe the emotional moment of the first speech was fairly genuine but it doesn't make it any less of a useful p.r. tool.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And what happened? Obama alludes to it in his first tearful photo op speech*, Feinstein drops the details on Sunday before the first funeral takes place. {shrug} Not sure how accurately predicting the fairly obvious is a major issue but whatever.


*FWIW, I believe the emotional moment of the first speech was fairly genuine but it doesn't make it any less of a useful p.r. tool.

If someone's first reaction to this shooting was "teh gubbermint is coming to get our gunz", then they're a cumstain on the comforter of life.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

If someone's first reaction to this shooting was "teh gubbermint is coming to get our gunz", then they're a cumstain on the comforter of life.

It's a logical presumption. I'll leave the rest for another thread.

Stay classy Blackie.

[Autumn]

Politics aside, goddamn if that speech doesn't make you cry I don't know what to say. And wow, has a modern president every given a speech more like a church sermon? No attempt at political correctness there.

I don't know what you could possibly say to those parents today. There are no words that aren't hollow right now.

[spleen1015]

I can't imagine what those parents are going through.

So much of my life is dedicated to my 9 year old daughter. I would be lost without her. A huge part of my life would be taken away.

I'm torn on the gun issue. I don't think guns are the real problem but if there was less access to them, I don't think we would see things like this.

So, get rid of the guns or fix the broken people? Both?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

So, get rid of the guns or fix the broken people? Both?

There's no way to get rid of the guns. There are about 300 million firearms in private possession in the USA today. Trying to restrict anything now is locking the barn door after the horses have escaped. It'd be like trying to enact prohibition while everyone has a personal still in their backyard.

[PilotMan]

There is no way to 100% this from happening again. Our schools are safe. This isn't a massive problem. It's a devastating one off event. Guns in the schools is not the answer and those that say that cracking down on guns will prevent this in the future are way off base too. Even complete mental health services won't prevent it.

[PilotMan]

Sometimes there is just no answer. This is the price we pay for living in a free society.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Sometimes there is just no answer. This is the price we pay for living in a free society.

Agreed. I just can't spend my timing going through 'what if' scenarios in this situation. There are certainly places where we can use this incident as an opportunity to renew focus on certain aspects of our society, but there's no way to stop it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Agreed. I just can't spend my timing going through 'what if' scenarios in this situation. There are certainly places where we can use this incident as an opportunity to renew focus on certain aspects of our society, but there's no way to stop it.

That's actually the thing that I believe most people have the biggest problem dealing with deep down: there's no such thing as absolutely "secure" if you're dealing with someone who knows what they what to accomplish and is willing to die to do so. You can be more secure, you can be vigilant, but absolute security is an illusion. It's an illusion that is kinda necessary in order for most Americans to function I think, but it's still an illusion.

[DougW]

So, they went back to school today.

I can't even imagine walking back to that scene with my 5 year old, and dropping him off for the day.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by DougW

So, they went back to school today.

I can't even imagine walking back to that scene with my 5 year old, and dropping him off for the day.

wow - i'm surprised they went back to school so soon.

[Kodos]

Obviously we can't stop these things from happening, but we can certainly take steps that make it harder to slaughter people in mass. Stopping the inflow of semiautomatic weapons is a step in the right direction. It won' t eliminate the ones already out there, but at least plug the hole in the dam.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DougW

So, they went back to school today.

I can't even imagine walking back to that scene with my 5 year old, and dropping him off for the day.

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

wow - i'm surprised they went back to school so soon.

My understanding was that they wern't going back to that same school. That the next town over had a school that they were letting them use to finish the school year. (This is what I read, but with the misinformation we've received from the media in this, it also might be mis-reported)

Not sure that is any better though, if I was a parent of a child there, I likely would keep them out at least through the holiday break just to get a better grasp on things.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DougW

So, they went back to school today.

I can't even imagine walking back to that scene with my 5 year old, and dropping him off for the day.

You talking about Connecticut or your kids? The Newtown district is out of class until tomorrow. They're having a recreational day for the kids at a local sports academy. They've already announced that the school won't be turned back over to the district for several months and most believe that school won't be held there ever again.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That's actually the thing that I believe most people have the biggest problem dealing with deep down: there's no such thing as absolutely "secure" if you're dealing with someone who knows what they what to accomplish and is willing to die to do so. You can be more secure, you can be vigilant, but absolute security is an illusion. It's an illusion that is kinda necessary in order for most Americans to function I think, but it's still an illusion.

It's easy to understand how a parent can feel that, and believe that, when that emotional drive to keep your child safe is pretty much the entire basis of parenthood. This CNN blogger kind of summed that up - how a parent "promises" to keep his kid safe, so when stuff like this shatters the the idea that that's even possible, it has to shake you to your core.

Parents' promise: I will keep you safe - CNN.com

But of course, aside from violence, there's all kinds of things you can't protect your kid from - accidents, illnesses, calamities of all kinds. So I think the calls to "prevent" this type of thing kind of feed into that myth and it makes me wonder what they really have in mind to "guarantee" an end to violence, so I prefer the kind of rhetoric that Obama used instead when he talked about how "we can't let this become routine" or whatever. That resonated with me a little more, because that kind of sentiment is not just about pushing reactionary measures that don't really accomplish anything except make us feel a little better (and it's not about trying to blame people whose politics someone doesn't like), it get more to the root of it - let's remember this outrage and fear and never become numb to it so that we can always strive to be better.

[DougW]

Originally Posted by Alan T

My understanding was that they wern't going back to that same school. That the next town over had a school that they were letting them use to finish the school year. (This is what I read, but with the misinformation we've received from the media in this, it also might be mis-reported)

Not sure that is any better though, if I was a parent of a child there, I likely would keep them out at least through the holiday break just to get a better grasp on things.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

You talking about Connecticut or your kids? The Newtown district is out of class until tomorrow. They're having a recreational day for the kids at a local sports academy. They've already announced that the school won't be turned back over to the district for several months and most believe that school won't be held there ever again.

Was talking about Connecticut, but I misread an article. It was a general - kids are having a difficult time returning to school (all over the country).

My bad, thanks for clearing it up fellas.

Yeah, that seems like the right move - I really couldn't imagine taking a kid back to that scene.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Stopping the inflow of semiautomatic weapons is a step in the right direction.

Suffice to say that I could hardly disagree more.

[JPhillips]

I can't imagine ever sending my child to the building where that happened. I don't know where you can send those children to school, but none of those children should ever have to walk through that building again.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I can't imagine ever sending my child to the building where that happened. I don't know where you can send those children to school, but none of those children should ever have to walk through that building again.

The plan I've seen mentioned is to use a former school building (apparently unused now) in a nearby town at least for the near term.

Not sure what a long term solution will/would be. From a practical standpoint it takes time & money to build new from the ground up, it's a tough problem logistically that would challenge any school district anywhere I'm sure.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Suffice to say that I could hardly disagree more.

Not surprising. And not worth arguing with you.

[molson]

Columbine eventually went with the "we're not letting these two assholes take our building" thing and did renovations instead, though that's maybe a high school kind of rallying cry rather than something an elementary school would do. It actually took a little while to get the money together, but I think these days, money would be no problem - they could do an internet campaign and get enough money for anything they wanted very quickly.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Not surprising. And not worth arguing with you.

Yes. Because individuals clearly need weapons that can fire off hundreds of rounds to keep their family "safe". It obviously worked out well for this individual's mother.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Suffice to say that I could hardly disagree more.

Originally Posted by Kodos

Not surprising. And not worth arguing with you.

Responses like that is the reason why we cannot have a dialog, not to mention Blackie's vitrol.

Pilot said it best, it's the price we pay to live in a free society, just like the fall of the WTC. So many things go right every single day because of the freedoms we have, it doesn't make sense to give any up for exceptional events (as tragic as they are). If we were being assaulted every day or in a war on this land, then yes temporarily.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

It obviously worked out well for this individual's mother.

Her poor judgment pales in comparison to the Constitution.

[Kodos]

We have all sorts of examples of semiautomatic guns inflicting a bunch of casualties. But I can't remember a single episode where Rambo came in and offed the threat with his trusty semiautomatic gun before innocent lives were lost. So how exactly is the ready availability of these guns helping keep anyone safe?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Responses like that is the reason why we cannot have a dialog, not to mention Blackie's vitrol.

Hey, I was trying to keep the reply as calm as possible. That was as good as I could come up with.

[whomario]

point of interest: How often do weapons get used successfully for self defense ? In comparison to (say) baseball bats ?

Also, the constitution is from 1791. I get that people would cite it and think it´s still relevant, but isn´t it a little weak as an argument in modern times ? I mean, when i´m writing my current paper on modern media development i´m not going to get my information off a book from the 60s.

on the "sending them back to school" issue: There´s just no right answer to that one, especially with kids that young. They could not get the significance (of the building, not the event) or they could be scared off (and associate it with the event) going into any other big building or any other school.

[Ben E Lou]

This is precisely why I don't want gun control debated in this thread. Completely predictable. Enough.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

We have all sorts of examples of semiautomatic guns inflicting a bunch of casualties. But I can't remember a single episode where Rambo came in and offed the threat with his trusty semiautomatic gun before innocent lives were lost. So how exactly is the ready availability of these guns helping keep anyone safe?

You have an extremely tiny percentage of those weapons being misued by criminals. Their use for defense in high profile public situations is a comically weak angle to work since they are not generally the weapon of choice for daily carry in public.

They are primarily a range weapon that has home defense applications (emphasis being on home defense rather than personal defense). Personally, at close quarters against relatively small numbers I'd prefer a multi-round 12 gauge for the higher lethality but that's a personal thing.

edit to add: Please note that my reply cross-posted Ben's request/instruction. Composing while he was posting in other words.

[spleen1015]

Made the mistake of looking through CNN's profiles on the victims.

[Toddzilla]

For those that listen to Opie and Anthony, you know that Anthony is a gun nut to the extreme. He's got all kinds of guns and rifles and semi-automatic weapons and he loves them. Loves his guns and loves the Second Amendment. He tweeted this weekend "The only gun that I own than isn't locked away and alarmed is the one on my hip. With the Second Amendment comes responsibility." Indeed.

[DougW]

6-year-olds Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto are being buried today. Sort of football related .. Little Jack was a huge Giants fan, and Victor Cruz heard about this Cruz wrote "R.I.P. Jack Pinto," "Jack Pinto, my hero" and "This one is 4 U!" on his cleats and gloves before playing the Atlanta Falcons Sunday.

Cruz told reporters he spoke to the family Saturday after hearing Jack was a Giants fan. Cruz was told the family planned to bury Jack in Cruz's No. 80 Giants jersey.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by DougW

6-year-olds Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto are being buried today. Sort of football related .. Little Jack was a huge Giants fan, and Victor Cruz heard about this Cruz wrote "R.I.P. Jack Pinto," "Jack Pinto, my hero" and "This one is 4 U!" on his cleats and gloves before playing the Atlanta Falcons Sunday.

Cruz told reporters he spoke to the family Saturday after hearing Jack was a Giants fan. Cruz was told the family planned to bury Jack in Cruz's No. 80 Giants jersey.

Yeah, Cruz was his favorite player.

I'm going back to avoiding all of this stuff. I can't handle it.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You have an extremely tiny percentage of those weapons being misued by criminals. Their use for defense in high profile public situations is a comically weak angle to work since they are not generally the weapon of choice for daily carry in public.

They are primarily a range weapon that has home defense applications (emphasis being on home defense rather than personal defense). Personally, at close quarters against relatively small numbers I'd prefer a multi-round 12 gauge for the higher lethality but that's a personal thing.

edit to add: Please note that my reply cross-posted Ben's request/instruction. Composing while he was posting in other words.

Because you're having to ward off invading armies from your house on a regular basis?