Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Desnudo]

Counterpoint on the eggs

Food Myths Debunked: Eating Eggs Raises Your Cholesterol Level / Nutrition / Healthy Eating

[QuikSand]

A pretty good public radio show/podcast worth listening to anyway... their most recent offering was a discussion on plant-based diets. It's worth a listen, especially if you are not completely embedded into one camp or the other.

Don't Eat Anything With A Face – IQ2 Debates

The comments on the page are the usual vitriolic spew, sadly, but the debate itself is pretty interesting. I think both sides managed to steer onto some unwise tangents, but I think that's close to inevitable when on stage and in person, rather than in the cool comforts of your internet hovel of choice.

[jaygr]

I'm curious what you folks doing the plant based diet do about fears over pesticides. My wife and I are taking the leap and it is a big concern for my wife, and myself to some extent.

Do you buy mostly organic? I've read that washing doesn't get rid of hardly any pesticides. I've also read there are some concerns over vegetarians having some higher rates of children with birth defects (specifically one effecting boys), with the link possibly being higher exposure to pesticides. With us planning on having another child very soon it is a concern.

We don't mind going for organic, though it will be more expensive and harder to find everything we want.

[QuikSand]

I haven't read/heard the specifics you describe, but I'd be interested.

Off the top of my head, I'm not really persuaded that moving to a plant-based diet really exposes one to more pesticides and genetically modified organisms than a standard diet would. If you're eating factory farmed animals and their products, what do you think they are being fed day after day? Pesticide-laden, genetically-modified corn and other plants. Eating meat doesn't get you out of this mix, it just puts you higher into the food chain -- and with a lot of the worst toxins that tend to be cumulative in nature, it gets like STDs, where once you eat an animal, you're eating all the toxins he ever ate, and so forth.

For our family, we eat mostly organic (which gets you at lest lower in pesticides, away from GMOs, and in some cases away from BPA). There are some guidelines on ways to do this reasonably (the "dirty dozen" would come up on a quick search) - but it is definitely more expensive and limiting. We have several things we will buy conventional, but many others where we stick to the organic. I am the most lax one in my family, mostly out of laziness/expedience.

[jaygr]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I haven't read/heard the specifics you describe, but I'd be interested.

Off the top of my head, I'm not really persuaded that moving to a plant-based diet really exposes one to more pesticides and genetically modified organisms than a standard diet would. If you're eating factory farmed animals and their products, what do you think they are being fed day after day? Pesticide-laden, genetically-modified corn and other plants. Eating meat doesn't get you out of this mix, it just puts you higher into the food chain -- and with a lot of the worst toxins that tend to be cumulative in nature, it gets like STDs, where once you eat an animal, you're eating all the toxins he ever ate, and so forth.

For our family, we eat mostly organic (which gets you at lest lower in pesticides, away from GMOs, and in some cases away from BPA). There are some guidelines on ways to do this reasonably (the "dirty dozen" would come up on a quick search) - but it is definitely more expensive and limiting. We have several things we will buy conventional, but many others where we stick to the organic. I am the most lax one in my family, mostly out of laziness/expedience.

I like your last line because I am much the same way. Here is the video I saw about the pesticides regarding washing and birth defects. It is not a high quality one but I think the site it is from has solid info. I found it originally searching for how well you can rinse off pesticides and was surprised the video had the extra bits about the birth defects.

Can Pesticides Be Rinsed Off? | NutritionFacts.org

I like another video on that site that was linked in this thread already about abdominal aortic aneurysm and its link with meat based diets. That one really hit home because that is what my dad died from much too early.

[QuikSand]

My dad died of the same thing a few years ago, too young. My search for a better way of living is very connected.

[MacroGuru]

Alright,

I figured I would ask in this thread since I have seen several different diets talked about / posted.

I am leaning towards the Paleo diet. For those who are on it, what online resources are you using / have used for the diet?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by MacroGuru

I am leaning towards the Paleo diet. For those who are on it, what online resources are you using / have used for the diet?

I'm not doing Paleo, so if someone comes along with a better idea, jump on it, but for things like this, the more specific subreddits on reddit are often good launching points. Probably not the individual submissions themselves, but for medium popularity subs, there will usually be a really solid collection of information on the right side of the page.

For the paleo subreddit, two places stand out. First is an announcement thread at the top of the page (stickied, basically): STICKY: NEWBIES, START HERE! : Paleo Second is the r/paleo FAQ: faq - Paleo which seems to offer lots of basic info and links to other places.


I started a low carb/high fat diet myself a couple weeks ago, and used the FAQ in the keto subreddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq), and it felt like a very good launching point and served me well for getting started info.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Counterpoint on the eggs

Food Myths Debunked: Eating Eggs Raises Your Cholesterol Level / Nutrition / Healthy Eating

Who Says Eggs Aren't Healthy or Safe? | NutritionFacts.org

A nice addition to the egg discussion.

[Matthean]

Your Panera Lunch Will Soon Be Free of Artificial Ingredients | TakePart

[nol]

Here's an article that made me think about this thread: Lizzie Widdicombe: Could Soylent Replace Food? : The New Yorker

The story of Soylent the company (basically Ensure with most of its calories coming from grains rather than sugar, making you feel more full) is a pretty entertaining read as a kind of tongue-in-cheek "Silicon Valley start-up aiming to 'disrupt' food" profile.

As a concept, it was interesting how the product itself (which in true techie fashion is open-source, endlessly modular, has a hyper-futuristic 'endgame'/insert other catchphrases here) is mostly agnostic about being vegetarian/vegan/paleo/etc., but still touches on a lot of the topics we debate when discussing different diets - finding the best balance of macro and micronutrients, whether something natural/organic is intrinsically better for you, the land/carbon cost of modern agriculture and what that means from a climate perspective, how feasible it is for people from lower economic strata to eat healthily, to name a few.

I don't think I could personally be a Soylent user since I'm more of a novelty seeker when it comes to food, but I could think of a few people I know for whom eating/preparing food tends to be too much of a chore who'd appreciate the step up in nutrition from eating out/pizza/ramen in addition to the time/money savings.

[QuikSand]

I had similar thoughts when I read that article in the Times, and one other, about Soylent. Oddly intriguing. Even if not attractive.

[Kodos]

I love Dr. Greger. Delivers important information with humor.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/more...mmon-diseases/

[Subby]

So I think I might buy some Soylent after reading that article. Fascinating.

[Kodos]

Hey Quik: What are your thoughts on Dr. John McDougall and his whole starch-heavy diet?

[QuikSand]

I don't claim enough expertise to have a firm opinion, really.

Mrs Q is fiddling with a high carb vegan diet right now, with the overwhelming share of her calories coming from fruit, veg, and starch; very little grain but some rice. Many people seem breathlessly excited about the 80-10-10 fruitarian approach, but I don't vest much faith in that meaning anything. They seem to be gorgeous people, though, if that matters.

McDougall seems pretty plain that his approach is geared primary toward weight loss (that's where the real money is, as we know), and from what I have read it seems a little bit thin with regard to it being a more comprehensive good health strategy. I consider that a weakness in a number of diet approaches.

Among my many complicated views on the topic, I am leaning toward "sugar-is-the-enemy" enough that a starchy, bready, carby diet seems like it can't make sense. So I think I have a bias against it, and that has kept me from digging too deeply.

[Kodos]

Thanks for your thoughts, Quik. I really value your opinion on this topic, as you are one of the folks who helped nudge me onto my current path.

I'm continually trying to nudge down my meat intake and have made good headway, and I have really cut down on dairy (which was actually pretty easy). I don't know if I'll ever make it to the vegan state, but I figure any movement in that direction is a positive. If I can boost my starches (especially potatoes) as part of my fruit- and veggie-heavy diet, that works for me.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Based on QuikSand's post below, I put Forks Over Knives in my Netflix cue a while back, and it has been sitting on our shelf for some time. Finally watched it last night. It was an eye-opening experience for me. As a guy whose preferred diet includes meat at lunch and dinner, it really made me sit up and take notice. I'm 5'10, 215 lbs. Clearly, my normal diet is not working for me. So, I'm going to give the plant-based diet a real shot. Maybe even do a dynasty about it.

By coincidence, I had already started a diet (actually, my wife and I agreed to a weight-loss competition) last Friday when I stopped drinking soda and chose healthy snacks over the usual crap I eat. In the afternoon at work, I decided to go for 15-minute walks instead of grabbing a soda and candy bar on my break to wake me up. I noticed I get the same uptick in energy from the walk as I did from the caffeine/sugar fix. In the first week, I lost 3.6 pounds. A good start. I'd like to get down to 175 or 180.

Just as an update, roughly 2.5 years later, I am in the low 180s after starting out around 215 in December of 2011. I still eat some meat, but most of my diet now comes from veggies, fruits, nuts and whole grains. If a veggie alternative to a meat dish is available, I usually take it.

Recently, I hit 500 days without soda, although that has been an ongoing struggle. I've been good, but that doesn't mean I haven't been tempted to give in now and then. I've largely eliminated dairy. I still have cheese on occasion, but a lot less than I used to consume. Mostly on pizza. I have fruit smoothies or whole wheat bagels instead of cereal for breakfast, so milk is almost completely out of my diet now. Except for the occasional ice cream.

As some know from the Strava thread, I started out walking a couple of years ago and then moved into running. Combining the exercise with the dietary changes has made a real positive difference in my health. If anyone else has stories about how changing their diet has helped, I'd love to hear them. I find them pretty inspiring. I'm still working toward 175...

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Thanks for your thoughts, Quik. I really value your opinion on this topic, as you are one of the folks who helped nudge me onto my current path.

Very gratifying to hear that, particularly since it seems to be working for you as part of a larger smarter approach.

I'm basically still in the same orbit I have been in for a while - down about 50 pounds from pre-diet, all my bloodwork very good, and no medication other than occasional B-12 and iodine supplements. I have fallen short of some goals for this summer, but hope that a recent intra-family challenge might provide the swift kick I need to get back out running. Maybe this thread and mini-confession could help too.

I'm still guilty of too much bad food in my generally good approach. I order fried potatoes more than is reasonable, often for lack of good options, and still eat more grains (even white grains) than I wish I did. So, I still consider myself a work in progress on those fronts. But I have not deliberately broken the "no animal products" pledge for more than 3 years - for me, I think that clarity of that as a rule has been important, as a pledge to "do better at this" or "eat less of that" doesn't have the same pull, I think. I am not a very disciplined person - my relative success at this is an aberration, basically.

Cheers!
(lifts a spinach smoothie glass)

[Kodos]

I've been adding spinach to my smoothies too. And I recently discovered that the veggie delight at Subway is pretty decent with spinach instead of lettuce.

French fries are a weak point for me too, although baked fries from the oven are a step in the right direction. For soda, trying to cut back didn't work for me. Like you, I needed a firm "can't have it ever" rule. I've stuck to it, but boy have there been days where I wanted to break it. It doesn't help that I hate tea and coffee. Chocolate is really my only source of caffeine now.

I think I could fairly easily go no dairy. I use silken tofu instead of yogurt in my smoothies. That was an easy enough change. Cheese, outside of pizza, is easy to ditch. No cereal makes no milk easy enough. On the other hand, with meat, every now and then, I just want to enjoy a good steak or some chicken wings. Which is why I doubt I'll ever go full vegetarian. Still, my diet is so much better than it used to be. And it shows. For a while, I was getting "have you lost weight" remarks on a regular basis. It was pretty gratifying.

[QuikSand]

In my work life, I'm a fairly public figure and do a bit of speaking, so I still get a fair number of the "you look great" stuff, with some of them (amusingly, but understandably) coming to me with a bit of hesitation, as people worry that my somewhat drastic weight loss might have arisen from illness.

I still desire foods I no longer eat. While I have found that my sympathies for animal rights arguments in general have grown once I had less personal guilt/stake in them, I'm still in this for health reasons, and the moral arguments enough would not be enough to prevent me from drifting back, I don't think.

My funniest weak moments are actually with smells - particularly fried chicken. I wasn't a huge fan back when I ate plenty of meat (even when I was doing low carb to varying degrees) but now I don't think there's a more provocative smell. I recently traveled on an all-inclusive cruise and separately to NOLA, and both settings were tempting, but I managed without major difficulty.

I have mostly given up soda as well. I occasionally get the Zevia brand of stevia-sweetened stuff (not exactly sure why I bend there) and I have moments of weakness in bars when I order a diet cola infused drink. Yeah, alcohol is another area where I could really afford to do better if I were really being honest with myself and serious about things. I joke that I was on a "bourbon and french fries" diet during my last super busy stretch of a few months at work. More true than I'd like to admit (the new bourbon-themed bar with great fries and no other vegan options 150 yards from my office is a curse, I say).

[aston217]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

A pretty good public radio show/podcast worth listening to anyway... their most recent offering was a discussion on plant-based diets. It's worth a listen, especially if you are not completely embedded into one camp or the other.

Don't Eat Anything With A Face – IQ2 Debates

The comments on the page are the usual vitriolic spew, sadly, but the debate itself is pretty interesting. I think both sides managed to steer onto some unwise tangents, but I think that's close to inevitable when on stage and in person, rather than in the cool comforts of your internet hovel of choice.

I listened to this and I was surprised at how lopsided the final vote turned out to be. I thought the 'against' side had made a pretty good case.

[QuikSand]

..and at the risk of overstaying my welcome...

Understandably, most of the talk here has focused on weight and cardio health. It's the most visible dividend from a change in diet (and exercise) to lose weight, and to appear to be making strides with your bloodwork, etc.

A significant part of this, in my mind, is also trying to manage toxins and the potential for cancers. Eating lower on the food chain seems (okay, seems to some, I know there are doubters in all crevasses) to play a real role on those fronts as well.

I'll go to Greger again, as his post from today hits right in this wheel house:

Cancer and the Animal-to-Plant Protein Ratio | NutritionFacts.org

[Kodos]

I love Dr. Greger.

[Buccaneer]

Not sure if this is an appropriate thread but wanted to share something. When I got back from a long road trip in June, decided to make several major changes to my lifestyle starting the first of July. I got back to swimming laps 4-5 days a week and significantly changed my eating habits to healthy foods consistently. For breakfast, it's always a protein/fiber fruit/yogurt smoothie (thanks to Magic Bullet); for lunch, low carb sandwich, unsalted cashews and granola/yogurt; and for dinner, usually a large salad (occasional fish or meat) - not to mention continuing to drink plenty of water. It's amazing how I had eliminated the need and interest in snacking and how I have developed a craving for healthy (i.e., non-processed, low fat and sugar) foods. The result of all this has been a BMI in the normal range for the first time in many years and my cholesterol going from 232 to 171.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Not sure if this is an appropriate thread but wanted to share something. When I got back from a long road trip in June, decided to make several major changes to my lifestyle starting the first of July. I got back to swimming laps 4-5 days a week and significantly changed my eating habits to healthy foods consistently. For breakfast, it's always a protein/fiber fruit/yogurt smoothie (thanks to Magic Bullet); for lunch, low carb sandwich, unsalted cashews and granola/yogurt; and for dinner, usually a large salad (occasional fish or meat) - not to mention continuing to drink plenty of water. It's amazing how I had eliminated the need and interest in snacking and how I have developed a craving for healthy (i.e., non-processed, low fat and sugar) foods. The result of all this has been a BMI in the normal range for the first time in many years and my cholesterol going from 232 to 171.

Awesome! Great News!

[Kodos]

Nice job, Bucc!

[QuikSand]

That's a great update, Bucc.

[cartman]

Has anyone tried one of the offerings from "Beyond Meat"? I had read a few articles and was curious, so I picked up a pack of the chicken strips at the store and cooked them up last night for chicken soft tacos. They do a great job of emulating the texture of chicken meat, but the taste was just off. I'd read where people were saying they couldn't tell the difference between real chicken and Beyond Meat, but it wasn't anywhere close for me.

[QuikSand]

I'm a pretty big fan, but I always dress stuff up a bit anyway. For me, piled under a bunch of beans and peppers and guac and olives, I really like their faux chicken strips. I make a pretty solid chicken salad with them, too, using Just Mayo.

There's certainly a lot of priming involved, though. If you're told you will not be able to tell any difference at all, I think that's unreasonable. But to me, they are close enough. I've served both items to non-vegetarian friends, without any pushback.

[Kodos]

Just ordered Proteinaholoic after positive reviews from Dr. Greger and others. Has anyone here read it yet?

[Radii]

Thoughts on the Pritikin Diet

This doesn't specifically discuss vegetarian diets and isn't the most scientific thing in the world but at its core is a topic that I'm interested in frequently, especially when reading this thread.

My diet is dominated by high fat meats. I don't intentionally eat any vegetables (I do eat some but I have no rule about getting x number of servings of vegetables a day). There are some guys I look up to who have gone literally 100% carnivore for 6+ months at a time (Zero Carb Interview: Kevin Fenderson | Eat Meat. Drink Water. <-- this guy mods the low carb forum on myfitnesspal that I'm very active in).

Recently, there was chatter about a diet involving obtaining 90% of their calories from (good/non-refined) carbs, almost entirely rice I believe, and seeing the exact same benefits as low carb diets offer.

Frequently I see posts in this thread talking about the benefits of limiting or completely eliminating meat with regards to heart health, insulin health markers, even the potential to limit cancer risk. I find this fascinating, because I eat almost literally the exact opposite diet as advocated in the original discussion here, and I see consistent research on a low carb, high fat diet dominated by eating meat offering the exact same benefits, including benefits with regard to cancer: Ketogenic Diets and Cancer - The Current State of Research. Anecdotally in addition to my weight loss so far, I've also achieved normal blood pressure, normal cholesterol, normal markers for diabetes and more generally and more importantly insulin resistence... getting ~70% of my calories from fat, much of it saturated fat, and not caring at all about my vegetable intake. Most folks in this thread achieve the exact same results by limiting their meat intake massively, focusing on lean meats (which I shun), and eating a heavily plant based diet. I find this fascinating.


I'm not really going anywhere with this, I was just thinking about the general idea when I saw this thread bumped today, and then saw this post about insulin linked in a low carb forum and figured I'd ramble a bit here. I enjoy reading the stuff that gets posted when this thread is bumped, and love seeing the different ways that different folks are able to find the best ways to get healthy. It sometimes feels to me like, as long as you ignore the shit that comes out of FDA recommendations, you'll be A-OK :P

[QuikSand]

It is frustrating and fascinating. Even within the plant-based community, we see stark differences and their adherents basically shouting one another down -- over whether to include things like nuts and seeds, fruit smoothies, whole grain products, sugars generally, and gluten. It's downright perplexing, especially while nearly every faction claims studies and results to back up their argument.

[albionmoonlight]

So there are now schools of thought telling us to avoid too much fat, to avoid too many carbs, and to avoid too much protein.

Other than that, though, we can eat whatever we want.

[Kodos]

Go easy on the water there, buddy.

[QuikSand]

On this front, one of my takeaways is that pretty much every thought-out diet plan urges its followers to avoid massive sugar bombs, and to avoid highly processed foods (loaded with way too much sodium, preservatives, and other additives). I also think that people who are thoughtful enough to follow any given approach are more likely to be watching and reducing calories, even if they aren't obliged to do so under their program.

All told, I think a good deal of the positive outcomes on the weight/cardio front might come from those items, independent of the route taken to get there. Cut out the white bread baloney sandwiches and hot fudge sundaes, and it might not matter that much what you sub in for them, at least on those superficial levels.

[QuikSand]

While I have not committed to such an approach (and suspect I lack the discipline to do so), I find the logic here pretty interesting and relevant to this conversation:

Why I am a Pegan – or Paleo-Vegan – and Why You Should Be Too! - Dr. Mark Hyman

Here’s what that looks like.

Focus on the glycemic load of your diet. This can be done on a vegan or paleo diet, but harder on a vegan diet. Focus on more protein and fats. Nuts (not peanuts), seeds (flax, chia, hemp, sesame, pumpkin), coconut, avocados, sardines, olive oil.
Eat the right fats. Stay away from most vegetable oils such as canola, sunflower, corn, and especially soybean oil which now comprises about 10 percent of our calories. Focus instead on omega 3 fats, nuts, coconut, avocados and yes, even saturated fat from grass fed or sustainably raised animals.
Eat mostly plants – lots of low glycemic vegetables and fruits. This should be 75 percent of your diet and your plate. I usually make 2 to 3 vegetable dishes per meal.
Focus on nuts and seeds. They are full of protein, minerals, and good fats and they lower the risk of heart disease and diabetes.
Avoid dairy – it is for growing calves into cows, not for humans. Try goat or sheep products and only as a treat. And always organic.
Avoid gluten – Most is from Franken Wheat – so look for heirloom wheat (Einkorn); if you are not gluten sensitive, then consider it an occasional treat.
Eat gluten-free whole grains sparingly– they still raise blood sugar and can trigger autoimmunity.
Eat beans sparingly – lentils are best. Stay away from big starchy beans.
Eat meat or animal products as a condiment, not a main course. Read The Third Plate by Dan Barber to understand how shifts in our eating habits could save the environment and ourselves. Vegetables should take center stage and meat should be a side dish.
Think of sugar as an occasional treat – in all its various forms (i.e., use occasionally and sparingly).

[AlexB]

Might be worth a read Radii

Processed meats do cause cancer - WHO - BBC News

Overview is that sausages, ham, bacon etc are in their eyes definitely linked to cancer, and unprocessed red meats probably are.

Although immediate reaction is eating small amounts of each is unlikely to be an issue, and branding them carcinogenic is probably a step too far, as clearly not in same league as tobacco. No-one ever got cancer from sitting next to someone eating a rare steak

[Kodos]

Maybe if they were smoking while they had the rare steak.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Might be worth a read Radii

Processed meats do cause cancer - WHO - BBC News

Overview is that sausages, ham, bacon etc are in their eyes definitely linked to cancer, and unprocessed red meats probably are.

Although immediate reaction is eating small amounts of each is unlikely to be an issue, and branding them carcinogenic is probably a step too far, as clearly not in same league as tobacco. No-one ever got cancer from sitting next to someone eating a rare steak

Yeah I've read that and read some discussions on it (which is virtually worthless, as everything about every individual study just gets attacked like crazy by people who may not like the results).

I don't smoke any meats I cook myself, and bacon is the only thing I eat that falls into the processed category, though I admittedly do quite enjoy my bacon.

Currently my feeling on that is really simple. This is the only way of eating that's ever worked for me, and its benefits due to reduced weight and reduction in insulin resistance outweight any possible negatives. So I'm absolutely content for now. I have a layman's understanding that there are cancer starving and cancer preventing benefits to eating a ketogenic diet, even if its done via lots of red meat, that make it a net positive overall. I have seen conversations in low carb forums settle on the idea that based on trying to aggregate all of the current research out there, a ketogenic diet that involves lots of red meat probably increases the likelyhood of some types of cancers and decreases others and overall decreases the likelyhood compared with the standard american diet. I can definitely admit that its a lot more straight forward when analyzing cancer research on vegetarian diets.


There are other options for me while still remaining ketogenic. There is actually a subset of folks who eat a vegetarian ketogenic diet. I suspect I will never be one of those people, but I do try to avoid saying "I would NEVER do that" and being overly resistant to something different. I could dramatically increase my intake of green veggies and lower my intake of meat and remain ketogenic. One thing I'll very likely do at some point is experiment with less saturated fat, which for me would basically mean lowering bacon intake and eating a lot of avocado, which would cut down/out my biggest source of processed stuff. I like experimenting at times within the ketogenic realm, but I've been trying to stick with what I know works lately since I spent too much of the summer off plan and stalled myself out a good bit.

[Subby]

Between this new report and the video I saw on FB of a pig doing a puzzle...I might be out on meat. Uggggh.

[Kodos]

Edit. Perhaps same article as the one above...

Breaking News: World Health Organization Says Processed and Red Meats Can Cause Cancer

[Kodos]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...ave-the-planet

I guess this could have gone in the Global Warming thread too.

[QuikSand]

Since he has gotten a bit of run in this thread:

How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease: Michael Greger, Gene Stone: 9781250066114: Amazon.com: Books

[Kodos]

I'm reading that book currently, having finished Proteinaholic a week or two ago.

[QuikSand]

Mrs Q is immersed, too. I am debating whether it would make any sense as an audiobook listen, but am leaning against.I very rarely actually heft books in hand to spend time reading, but I listen voraciously to both audiobooks and podcasts in the car and during exercise.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm reading that book currently, having finished Proteinaholic a week or two ago.

I assume the conclusion here is going to be pro-vegetarian, which is fine. But I'm curious about the macronutrient breakdown since protein is specifically mentioned in the name of the book. Is there a set amount of protein/fat/carbs this book recommends, or is it a more general "you just don't need much protein".

FWIW, even though I nearly all of my calories come from meat and dairy, I probably eat far less protein than the average person, even healthy person who is obsessed with their bonless skinless chicken breasts. So I'm curious about the macronutrient recommendations that come from that.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

If you're trying to do oatmeal, I can't recommend this stuff highly enough:

McCANN'S Steel Cut Irish Oatmeal, 28-Ounce Tins (Pack of 4): Amazon.com: Grocery & Gourmet Food

And for crying out loud... ir you're going to make an effort, make an effort. get rid of the 13-unpronouncable-ingredient packets, man up, and boil some fucking water. Even buying the dirt cheap rolled oats from the shelf is much cheaper than instant packets, far better for you, and at worst it takes 5 minutes to make. Seriously.

We tend to make a batch by tossing it into the slow cooker at night, and it's great for the morning. Works well for grits, too, if that's your thing.

If you want to get serious with your oatmeal, some crushed nuts and/or things like flaxseed can make it even more of an energy boost for the morning. Bob's Red Mill makes a pretty good multi-grain hot cereal as well, if you're looking for variety.

Finally hopped on the oatmeal bandwagon over the holidays. Tried the quick oats version first. Buried them in berries and added some brown sugar. Great way to start the day. Even tried your steel-cut oats. More effort, but still pretty tasty when you throw in fruit and brown sugar to taste.

Originally Posted by QuikSand

In the very unlikely event that you're interested in reading and/or learning about the topic, there's quite a lot of information on the topic available.

Sites like:

http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm

Plant-based foods and prevention of cardiovascular disease: an overview

The Science Behind Clinton's Plant-Based Diet Program

Engine 2

The Engine 2 Diet | Page not found

The Engine 2 Diet | Page not found

I don't personally claim the medical or scientific expertise to arbitrate among competing claims in this area, and regret if I have left that impression.

I am a rational person, I have read quite a lot of material on this topic (including a number of detractors) and have come away very impressed that there's an awful lot to it. To me, The China Study was just immensely powerful -- with a major research study looking across one culture (and thereby removing most dramatic effects of racial/ethnic differences) the prevalence of a whole slate of diseases are powerfully connected to the presence of animal products and processed foods in our diets.

I am trying to be careful in my claims here, as well. I'm not saying that we could wipe out cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases, and the like with dietary changes -- while the effects are seemingly powerful in all those cases, it doesn't appear that we could simply win the battles there with diet alone. But with heart disease in particular, I believe we probably could. That's our country's number one killer by far, and it appears as though nobody needs to be dying of it.

I know I sound like a cultist here... and it's possible that this is some bill of goods designed to sell a little product and make a few people famous. Can't rule it out, I suppose.

So what's the downside if I and my family start eating way, way healthier than before? Maybe my personal risk of dying of a heart attack in my 40s or 50s drops by only 50% instead of 100%? Maybe my kids don't really make huge gains in preventing cancer, but only yield healthier bodies and minds by virtue of eating better. I can live with partial outcomes like that, I think, even if I'm being "duped" into making these healthier choices.

I've done a lot of reading over the past few years too, and I am thoroughly convinced of the health benefits of a plant-based whole food diet. I lost 30 pounds and have maintained it for 2 years with no "dieting" to speak of. I don't eat salads, I don't starve myself. I feel so much better than I did at 215 pounds. Two plus months ago, I took the plunge and went from eating meat occasionally to not eating meat at all, and managed to lose a little weight over the holidays in the process. I occasionally get the hankering for chicken wings or something, but on a day-to-day basis, I don't feel like I'm missing out. I've also cut out dairy, except for what I refer to as "incidental dairy" like milk chocolate bars. I don't eat cheese or milk, but if there is a little butter in the mashed potatoes, that's okay. I won't put it in myself, but if it's already there, I usually won't let that stop me from eating them.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Radii

I assume the conclusion here is going to be pro-vegetarian, which is fine. But I'm curious about the macronutrient breakdown since protein is specifically mentioned in the name of the book. Is there a set amount of protein/fat/carbs this book recommends, or is it a more general "you just don't need much protein".

FWIW, even though I nearly all of my calories come from meat and dairy, I probably eat far less protein than the average person, even healthy person who is obsessed with their bonless skinless chicken breasts. So I'm curious about the macronutrient recommendations that come from that.

Oops. I didn't want to respond to this without looking at the book because I didn't want to misrepresent what he wrote. I'll try to remember to look this up at home. He's definitely pro-vegetarian, and says there is no need to eat meat to get protein. I'll see if I can find you a more specific response later.

[jaygr]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I've done a lot of reading over the past few years too, and I am thoroughly convinced of the health benefits of a plant-based whole food diet. I lost 30 pounds and have maintained it for 2 years with no "dieting" to speak of. I don't eat salads, I don't starve myself. I feel so much better than I did at 215 pounds. Two plus months ago, I took the plunge and went from eating meat occasionally to not eating meat at all, and managed to lose a little weight over the holidays in the process. I occasionally get the hankering for chicken wings or something, but on a day-to-day basis, I don't feel like I'm missing out. I've also cut out dairy, except for what I refer to as "incidental dairy" like milk chocolate bars. I don't eat cheese or milk, but if there is a little butter in the mashed potatoes, that's okay. I won't put it in myself, but if it's already there, I usually won't let that stop me from eating them.

I had similar results with the plant-based whole food diet when I started it pretty much exactly 2 years ago. I just changed my diet and did not even add any exercise and I still lost about 25 lbs in around 6 months.

What got me, however, was around that 6th month my wife was pregnant with our second. That really threw a wrench into things as we slowly fell off the diet as she gained her pregnancy weight and I gain my "sympathy" weight . Then of course once we had the baby (in addition to a toddler) there was no time get back on the diet.

Now we're finally at a place where we are trying the diet again as we started Monday. I am really excited to be on it again. Unfortunately over the last year and a half I did gain all of the 25lbs back, almost exactly. I've also felt like shit, especially recently and I know a big reason is my diet. I felt really good last time on the diet so I am looking forward to it.

As with you I am a real believer in the plant-based whole food diet. I think the proof is there in how you feel after making the change. It wasn't only the weight loss but there was a noticeable difference for my whole body and mind.