Ebola

[claphamsa]

http://www.dallasnews.com/ebola/head...quarantine.ece

[stevew]

I got about a half paragraph in before I decided I I couldn't take it anymore.

[Desnudo]

I think all she's saying is that you need to be clear about what's happening otherwise it's confusing and scary and some effort should be made to make people feel comfortable.

[JPhillips]

What authority do the Governors of NY and NJ have to do this?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

What authority do the Governors of NY and NJ have to do this?

Typically there's a general authority to maintain public safety that's ascribed
to governors. Similar to the authority to declare a state of emergency (don't hammer me on the technical aspect of that, that's a loose comparsion and I've got a massive headache atm)


And if the feds fail to act responsibly -- as they have done thus far -- then bravo to governors who will step up to the plate.

[DaddyTorgo]

Have these governors thought about where they're going to keep all these people that they're quarantining as they start to multiply in #s??

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Have these governors thought about where they're going to keep all these people that they're quarantining as they start to multiply in #s??

Maybe 50 governors all doing the right thing would wake the feds up {shrug}

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by stevew

I got about a half paragraph in before I decided I I couldn't take it anymore.

I disagree.

Not taking a position one way or another on whether or not the quarantine is the right thing to do, but if we're going to quarantine people can we at least treat them like fucking human beings and make sure they have food/water/comfortable accommodations/etc and ya know...not be assholes to them?

Otherwise I'm all for lawsuits against the states for unlawful detainment or whatever until those conditions are improved.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Typically there's a general authority to maintain public safety that's ascribed
to governors. Similar to the authority to declare a state of emergency (don't hammer me on the technical aspect of that, that's a loose comparsion and I've got a massive headache atm)


And if the feds fail to act responsibly -- as they have done thus far -- then bravo to governors who will step up to the plate.

Kudos for a publicity stunt that won't do anything but make it more likely that ebola will spread. Really smart to discourage people from trying to stop the plague before it spreads from western Africa.

[Solecismic]

Has anyone here read the book "Blindness" by Jose Saramago?

Anyway, based on the behavior of this New York doctor, I would hope people would understand why untrained airport security might mishandle the situation. Better training is necessary, but when the professionals who have seen the horrors of Ebola first-hand can't be trusted to take proper precautions, what do they expect?

Ebola is apparently a little easier to transmit than we previously thought. Either that, or doctors and nurses aren't being given proper training on prevention. In either case, it may be appropriate to automatically quarantine those who have been to that region. They may be symptom-free when they land, but, clearly, there's a problem here and self-reporting of symptoms is not working.

It must be absolute hell in Liberia right now. Hopefully, that recent report that there might be hundreds of thousands of new cases a month from now is wrong.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I disagree.

Not taking a position one way or another on whether or not the quarantine is the right thing to do, but if we're going to quarantine people can we at least treat them like fucking human beings and make sure they have food/water/comfortable accommodations/etc and ya know...not be assholes to them?

Otherwise I'm all for lawsuits against the states for unlawful detainment or whatever until those conditions are improved.

Eh, i get all that but tonally it resembled that chick that ranted on youtube about Bath and Body Works not having her special holiday scented candles. Quarantine is not the worst thing ever.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by stevew

Eh, i get all that but tonally it resembled that chick that ranted on youtube about Bath and Body Works not having her special holiday scented candles. Quarantine is not the worst thing ever.

No, it's not, but saying "I'm hungry" while being held for 7 hours and being given just a granola bar is pretty shitty given that this person isn't a damn criminal or anything.

[stevew]

Yeah, obviously they need to get their shot together. I'm not arguing that.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Jesus is not in charge of national security nor public health.

I think the point was that Jesus would probably speak a little differently of those who sacrifice so much to help others than you do.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

No, it's not, but saying "I'm hungry" while being held for 7 hours and being given just a granola bar is pretty shitty given that this person isn't a damn criminal or anything.

Absolutely. But pretty shitty is better than risking an outbreak. And we've thoroughly established that her organization isn't following the rules when it comes to self-reporting of symptoms.

Protocol needs to improve, but her employer and her co-workers are absolutely to blame for the latest round of worry.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Absolutely. But pretty shitty is better than risking an outbreak. And we've thoroughly established that her organization isn't following the rules when it comes to self-reporting of symptoms.

Protocol needs to improve, but her employer and her co-workers are absolutely to blame for the latest round of worry.

We have? I'm not sure that we have.

[JPhillips]

The doctor did follow protocol. He was monitoring multiple times a day and reported a temperature instantly. It's very very unlikely that anyone who came in contact with him will develop ebola.

It just isn't easy to catch the disease outside of the end stages. Look at the guy that died in Dallas. All of the people that came in contact with him before he entered the hospital are now confirmed negative and that includes people that cleaned vomit and diarrhea.

God, I wish there was someone of prominence that would tell the country everything will be fine. At this stage the panic is a much bigger threat than the disease.

[Julio Riddols]

OH GOD I JUST SNEEZED

Edit: TWICE!!!!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

God, I wish there was someone of prominence that would tell the country everything will be fine. At this stage the panic is a much bigger threat than the disease.

Lots of reference in this thread to people over-reacting. Maybe I'm missing something about the "Ebola Panic of 2014". Are people leaving the cities for the country-side? Or are we just discussing the high levels of news coverage?

EDIT: And I don't say that to be sarcastic, I really don't follow the coverage regarding Ebola outside of the nightly discussion of so-and-so who died or so-and-so who lived.

[JPhillips]

The NYC local channels are running EBOLA ALERT commercials. People are refusing to ride the subways. Schools are closing. The poor bridal shop in Cleveland where the nurse went has lost nearly all its business. A fire station in LA disinfected from top to bottom because a black man with a fever came to a local police station.(The police station also disinfected.) Candidates are running wildly inaccurate commercials. A teacher was put on leave because she was at a conference in Dallas when the patient died.

And that's just off the top of my head. We aren't killing people or fleeing to the country, but there's plenty of media and politician fueled panic.

[Dutch]

You realize you said a lot and quantified nothing, right? X million of people normally ride the subway in a month and this month is was Y million less. I honestly don't know if you mean 3 people refuse to ride the Subway or 3 million.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

God, I wish there was someone of prominence that would tell the country everything will be fine.

In other words, offer an assurance that can't be legitimately & assuredly given?
Just bullshit us?

At this stage the panic is a much bigger threat than the disease.

Panic just seems to be overstating it. People do have the right, it seems to me, to determine what level of risk they deem acceptable.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I think the point was that Jesus would probably speak a little differently of those who sacrifice so much to help others than you do.

I'm not necessarily speaking ill of them for doing so ... I'm simply not willing (nor would any rational person be afaic) to assume additional risk(s) for their choice to do so.

And if that means shooting the first bastard to break quarantine, so be it.

I wouldn't bat a f'n eyelash.

[Dutch]

I've seen Walking Dead...I know what's up!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The doctor did follow protocol. He was monitoring multiple times a day and reported a temperature instantly. It's very very unlikely that anyone who came in contact with him will develop ebola.

It just isn't easy to catch the disease outside of the end stages. Look at the guy that died in Dallas. All of the people that came in contact with him before he entered the hospital are now confirmed negative and that includes people that cleaned vomit and diarrhea.

God, I wish there was someone of prominence that would tell the country everything will be fine. At this stage the panic is a much bigger threat than the disease.

Exactly - i think the only negative regarding procedures you can draw from the doctor's situation is that maybe all fevers should be reported / treated as more potentially serious, at the risk of overreacting to that extreme, rather than waiting till 100.4.

Something more aggressively proactive than that might go a long way towards reassuring people too.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm far from an "OMG EBOLA PANIC" person, but even I have concluded that overseas travel to Europe, complete with it's crowded airports and transitory population isn't worth the added like statistically insignificant risk at this point. There's nothing time-sensitive I have to do over there, so I might as well wait a bit.

[molson]

Treating the people who are trying to help like they're criminals is only going to reduce that group's numbers and effectiveness, which will in turn contribute to help spread of the disease in Africa, and the odd small handful of cases that make it out of Africa.

But this whole thing is becoming an interesting litmus test for revealing stupidity. There's a few people at work and on facebook who I'll never quite look at the same again. It's always kind of disappointing to see that someone is "one of them."

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In other words, offer an assurance that can't be legitimately & assuredly given?
Just bullshit us?



Panic just seems to be overstating it. People do have the right, it seems to me, to determine what level of risk they deem acceptable.

Exactly two people have contracted the disease in the U.S. and both of them worked with an end stage patient and had what has now been deemed to be inadequate protection.

There may not be nothing to worry about, but there is very very little to worry about, certainly far less that a hundred other things that might kill you today.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I'm far from an "OMG EBOLA PANIC" person, but even I have concluded that overseas travel to Europe, complete with it's crowded airports and transitory population isn't worth the added like statistically insignificant risk at this point. There's nothing time-sensitive I have to do over there, so I might as well wait a bit.

If we've learned nothing it's that you need to be proactive like Israel.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

Treating the people who are trying to help like criminals is only going to reduce that group's numbers and effectiveness, which will in turn contribute to help spread of the disease in Africa, and the odd small handful of cases that make it out of Africa.

But this whole thing is becoming an interesting litmus test for revealing stupidity. There's a few people at work and on facebook who I'll never quite look at the same again. It's always kind of disappointing to see that someone is "one of them."

If someone is willing to risk their lives to work in Ebola areas they should be willing to go through a quarantine for 3 weeks and/or undergo some sort of test (which I do not think exists, why isn't there one btw?) to identify they have/not the virus before the 3 weeks.

With that said, the quarantined should be put in a decent shelter, accommodations etc. vs a tent and outhouse.

Ebola cannot be transmitted by asymptomatic folks ... but logically there is a point in time (e.g. overnight) where someone gets a fever and there will be some "x time of risk". Is it beyond the realm of possibility that there kissing/sex could happen and transmission could occur?

I actually think it will get worse before getting better in the US. NY and NJ quarantine isn't bullet proof but why not address the low hanging fruit.

The nurse should just keep quiet, accept it and take one for the cause. IMO her whining to the news is selfish and she should recognize its not just state government but there is a large number of Americans that want this to occur even if they (me) may be proven wrong in the future.

[JPhillips]

a large number of Americans that want this to occur even if they (me) may be proven wrong in the future.

Well then by all means...

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Well then by all means...

I guess I should have added "wrong or right".

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The nurse should just keep quiet, accept it and take one for the cause. IMO her whining to the news is selfish .

Ya, she's definitely a selfish person who isn't doing anything to help the "cause". Not like the true patriots spreading ignorance and panic on the internet.

Edit: She hasn't been told how long she'll be there. She has no flushable toilet, no shower, no clothes other than uncomfortable hospital garb, no TV, nothing to read, no access to a lawyer. She just has to stare at a wall for 3 weeks. She hasn't been told how long she'd be there, and she wasn't told of any plan before they arrested her. There's no real plan about how to do this. And it's all at the directive of a politician (who has already publicly announced she was "obviously ill", even though she's tested negative), and not any medical authority. Maybe because she has spoken out on these conditions, other politicians will try to avoid bad press and treat these people a little better. So maybe it's not so "selfish" to bring these conditions to light, it may just help others from being imprisoned without a plan or access to basic necessities.

There's so much resentment towards these people, from the general public, and now the government. I don't get it. Things are couched in terms of "risk" and such, but I see an underlying resentment as well. People would like this just to be Africa's problem so I think some of this attitude towards these volunteers who form this bridge between Africa and the U.S. in the context of this outbreak has that tone. People didn't even want those doctors transferred directly to the hospital in Atlanta. The only chance Ebola has in the U.S. if the volunteers give up the fight in Africa, and fortunately, that's not much of a chance, because these people are motivated by the welfare of humanity and not fear, or politics, or what other people or the government thinks of them. We'd be so much better off if we had more people like them and so many fewer panicky idiots.

All this and still zero transmissions in America and Europe outside of the healthcare field (and only 3 inside of it, including Spain). We have a ways to go to hit the 1,000 U.S. death toll predicted earlier in this thread. (Though about 20 times that number will be killed by the flu before spring. Why no mandatory quarantines/ prisons for something that will kill 20X the number of the most pessimistic Ebola death protection in this thread - and about 20,000X what the actually Ebola U.S. death toll will be)? It's not out of the "realm of possibility" that someone with the flu boards a plane and infects people who later die from complications from that flu. In fact statistically, that probably happens every year. It's "mostly" the very old, the very young, and very sick, but not entirely. Otherwise healthy people will die from the flu too - certainly more than will die from Ebola in the U.S.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, she's definitely a selfish person who isn't doing anything to help the "cause". Not like the true patriots spreading ignorance and panic on the internet.

Who are the patriots that you are referring to? Can't (nor may want to) defend them without specific examples to talk about.

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: She hasn't been told how long she'll be there. She has no flushable toilet, no shower, no clothes other than uncomfortable hospital garb, no TV, nothing to read, no access to a lawyer. She just has to stare at a wall for 3 weeks. She hasn't been told how long she'd be there, and she wasn't told of any plan before they arrested her. There's no real plan about how to do this. And it's all at the directive of a politician (who has already publicly announced she was "obviously ill", even though she's tested negative), and not any medical authority. Maybe because she has spoken out on these conditions, other politicians will try to avoid bad press and treat these people a little better. So maybe it's not so "selfish" to bring these conditions to light, it may just help others from being imprisoned without a plan or access to basic necessities.

No doubt they did not get it right, read my comments about there should be better accommodations.

On some other points that have been disputed ...

Don't know why she hadn't been told how long she will be there. Everyone else seems to know? (there's probably a nuance missed somewhere)

No flushing pottie, no shower? Wonder what her accommodations were like in Africa?

Quarantined nurse knocks Ebola policy - CNN.com

After hearing Hickox's phone interview with Candy Crowley on Sunday, New Jersey Health officials emailed CNN's "State of the Union" to refute some of the claims made by Hickox.

In the email, Donna Leusner, communications director for the New Jersey Department of Health, wrote that Hickox did receive reading materials and got computer access.

Leusner also wrote that "the patient was given a copy of the quarantine order on Friday and is receiving regular updated information."

Is there something out there that quotes her saying "I am willing to be quarantined but please get me better accommodations" or has it all been "my basic human rights have been violated", "its just inhumane" etc.

[Solecismic]

There's a difference between panic and common sense. Panic is closing schools because someone was in the same city as someone who was ill. Common sense is quarantining people who had direct contact with people who were at their most contagious and vomiting/experiencing diarrhea/etc.

At some point, the DWB doctor was sick and out in public in NYC. That seems reckless. Even though he's an experienced health-care professional, he couldn't avoid getting sick himself. And he didn't know he was exposed. So obviously, even those who know the most about this disease don't know everything about its transmission.

While I certainly sympathize with the DWB nurse, and hope that airport security personnel receive better training in getting people into quarantine and that quarantine itself is made more comfortable, she, above all people, should understand why this is necessary.

And if DWB is the humanitarian organization it claims to be, then surely everyone there understands the sacrifices they're making. Which include doing everything possible to ensure they don't come back home and harm strangers and loved ones. They've seen this horror first-hand. This isn't the flu.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

And if DWB is the humanitarian organization it claims to be

And there is a very (and increasingly) reasonable point of question.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And there is a very (and increasingly) reasonable point of question.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And there is a very (and increasingly) reasonable point of question.

I know you find the whole concept of helping others suspicious and weird, but what do you think those doctors' real endgame is?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I know you find the whole concept of helping others suspicious and weird, but what do you think those doctors' real endgame is?

Some of the biggest egos on the planet, looking for a way to pat themselves on the m'f'ing back ... if you just want the flat truth.

Haven't met one of their crew yet (and I've known more than one) that wasn't a classic God-complex look-at-me ego maniac desperate for attention.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Some of the biggest egos on the planet, looking for a way to pat themselves on the m'f'ing back ... if you just want the flat truth.

Haven't met one of their crew yet (and I've known more than one) that wasn't a classic God-complex look-at-me ego maniac desperate for attention.

I think that's a pretty common viewpoint, it's that resentment I talked about earlier that manifests itself in the anger expressed against these people. That's one thing I like about you Jon, you say what so many others think but just dance around.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I think that's a pretty common viewpoint, it's that resentment I talked about earlier. That's one thing I like about you Jon, you say what so many others think but just dance around.

I've met at least three people who have worked with DWB over the years. I wouldn't give you a dime for any of them (or the lot of 'em), some of the most wholly unlikable SOB's I've ever come across.

Does that anecdotal experience color my perception of the group as a whole? Probably. Hell, it's a near certainty.

But nothing they've come up with in this latest bit of media attention does much to dissuade me of that initial impression.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Who are the patriots that you are referring to? Can't (nor may want to) defend them without specific examples to talk about.

No doubt they did not get it right, read my comments about there should be better accommodations.

On some other points that have been disputed ...

Don't know why she hadn't been told how long she will be there. Everyone else seems to know? (there's probably a nuance missed somewhere)

No flushing pottie, no shower? Wonder what her accommodations were like in Africa?

Quarantined nurse knocks Ebola policy - CNN.com

Is there something out there that quotes her saying "I am willing to be quarantined but please get me better accommodations" or has it all been "my basic human rights have been violated", "its just inhumane" etc.

The facts should come out in the course of the legal action which looks like is coming this week. But just from the photos alone, she deserves better. This is a conscious choice by politicians in an election season to aggressively attack the situation here in a manner that risks the efforts in Africa. 21 days alone in a tent in those conditions may very well change the equation for some of those volunteering. If I was one of those doctors based in the NYC area, I'd just fly into a different airport and lay low for a few weeks.

Edit: Which is probably part of the goal of the political strategy here. There were people in this thread who were scared to have ebola patients in hospitals in their city. Those of that mindset in NYC would probably rather have a doctor laying low somewhere else than watched in a NYC hospital, so it makes sense for politicians to try to make that happen.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by molson

The facts should come out in the course of the legal action which looks like is coming this week. But just from the photos alone, she deserves better. This is a conscious choice by politicians in an election season to aggressively attack the situation here in a manner that risks the efforts in Africa. 21 days alone in a tent in those conditions may very well change the equation for some of those volunteering. If I was one of those doctors based in the NYC area, I'd just fly into a different airport and lay low for a few weeks.

I agree, there is no doubt in my mind that she deserves better accommodation. If NY and NJ don't improve them, then I would support legal action to make accommodations better.

[BillJasper]

I still don't get the panic. We've had, I believe, one death in the U.S and probably a dozen infected total.

I hate the 24-hour news cycle where they blow everything out of proportion in a battle for ratings.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I still don't get the panic. We've had, I believe, one death in the U.S and probably a dozen infected total.

I hate the 24-hour news cycle where they blow everything out of proportion in a battle for ratings.

4 total infections. the panic has already done way more damage than even a full blown epidemic would have been.

[BillJasper]

EBOLA!!! Dun! Dun! Dun!

My wife has threatened to rip the cable wire out of the wall if I don't quit watching the news.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

4 total infections. the panic has already done way more damage than even a full blown epidemic would have been.

you shut up or i'll have you quarantined!

[jeff061]

Constantly reminded how full of shit Americans are when they preach how resilient they are during times of crisis. Nothing but hysteria and knee reactions causing far more damage than the so called crisis itself.

Over and over and over again. Infuriating.

We may be the least tough and resilient country on the planet.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Lots of reference in this thread to people over-reacting. Maybe I'm missing something about the "Ebola Panic of 2014". Are people leaving the cities for the country-side? Or are we just discussing the high levels of news coverage?

Some say Ebola fears are a factor in the stock market tanking recently, but of course that can't be proven.

Some of the other things I've read about - some people being afraid to travel, others pulling their kids from schools, a college rejecting applications from Africans, an African student trip to study business in America cancelled, a few school closings, people calling 911 when black people have been ill in public and telling dispatch that the person has ebola, and about a million stupid comments, and now a doctor quarantined with no notice, in questionable conditions. And collaterally, a risk now that the panic here may impact efforts on the ground in Africa. So nothing ground-shattering yet, but I think it has shown that we are not a resilient people. It is scary to think what would happen here the next time we face a real threat.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

And collaterally, a risk now that the panic here may impact efforts on the ground in Africa.

How many people do you think really give a fuck about that risk?

Sierra Leone 71% Muslim. Guinea 85% Muslim. (Liberia the opposite direction, about 86% Christian).

And I'm not trying to be ugly, I'm just asking you what I think is a very genuine part of the equation.