Ebola

[sterlingice]

Haven't seen a thread about it and I guess there are some interesting angles.

First, it's the largest outbreak of Ebola in history so there's that. If there's going to be a disease that wipes us out ala Captain Trips, Ebola won't be it as it's not airborne and symptoms present pretty quickly. It tends to burn itself out pretty quickly, even with a high mortality rate of about 60% in this current outbreak.

Then there was the story about the doctor who died. There's also the doctor who came back to the US and put himself into self quarantine.

Then there's the other two who came back to Emory in the US. I believe there was some panic in some corners of the internet but, really, since it's a fluid transmitted disease, the risk to the US population is really minor. Plus, studying the disease here in good facilities will probably help us immensely in battling the disease.

Finally, there's the potential "miracle" drug they were given. That's getting to some interesting questions about clinical trials, time to market, etc
Ebola drug likely saved American patients - CNN.com

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

If there's going to be a disease that wipes us out ala Captain Tripps

Wild Cards FTW

[sterlingice]

I was going for The Stand, but you did just give me a few minutes of wikipedia reading to catch up

SI

[britrock88]

And the Onion was on top it, as usual:

Experts: Ebola Vaccine At Least 50 White People Away | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[Edward64]

One of these days it'll mutate.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

First, it's the largest outbreak of Ebola in history so there's that. If there's going to be a disease that wipes us out ala Captain Trips, Ebola won't be it as it's not airborne and symptoms present pretty quickly.

Yet, it's not airborne yet. So there's still hope that Ebola could become Captain Trips.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Edward64

One of these days it'll mutate.

That and there are entirely too many 'hold my beer' types in medical research. I'm just waiting for one of them to get an Ebola sample and make it airborne as a proof of concept.

Then we all die.

[miked]

I enjoy the politicians using it for more border control cries. That illegals via Africa are coming through the Mexico border and may be bringing Ebola to the US. As if we don't fly direct from many other cities in Africa and allow people in all the time.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by miked

I enjoy the politicians using it for more border control cries. That illegals via Africa are coming through the Mexico border and may be bringing Ebola to the US. As if we don't fly direct from many other cities in Africa and allow people in all the time.

GOP lawmaker: Migrant kids might have Ebola | TheHill

[molson]

The Atlanta CDC always fucks shit up in novels and movies, but in real life, they've never once caused the extinction of humanity, so I'm inclined to trust their judgment on these things.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by molson

The Atlanta CDC always fucks shit up in novels and movies, but in real life, they've never once caused the extinction of humanity, so I'm inclined to trust their judgment on these things.

All well and good, I just don't understand the point of bringing people back at all. What's the gain? Can't we fly the meds to them, rather than the other way around?

[path12]

Ebola? I hardly knowa!

Seriously though, ebola? I'm against it.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by jeff061

All well and good, I just don't understand the point of bringing people back at all. What's the gain? Can't we fly the meds to them, rather than the other way around?

There is no medication for it. The only thing you can do to improve survival is to provide intensive supportive care (blood transfusions, IV fluids, etc.). We're much better able to provide that level of intensive care here than they are in Africa.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by molson

The Atlanta CDC always fucks shit up in novels and movies, but in real life, they've never once caused the extinction of humanity, so I'm inclined to trust their judgment on these things.

In the last two months they exposed about 80 workers to anthrax because of lax procedures. They also recently located live small pox cultures in an abandoned storage area. The lab director resigned over all of this about a week ago. Please forgive me if my faith in the CDC is fairly low at this point.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Shepp

In the last two months they exposed about 80 workers to anthrax because of lax procedures. They also recently located live small pox cultures in an abandoned storage area. The lab director resigned over all of this about a week ago. Please forgive me if my faith in the CDC is fairly low at this point.

Well I'll tell you what, if Ebola wipes out even a small portion of the U.S. population, I'll buy you a coke.

[cartman]

Location of the CDC Center where the Ebola patient was taken: Atlanta
Headquarters of Coca-Cola: Atlanta

Ask for a Pepsi, Shepp

[Shepp]

I don't understand how anyone can look at the decision to bring these folks back here for treatment and think its a good idea. The doctor and the nurse in question were treating Ebola patients in Africa. I assume they were wearing protective gear and trained in dealing with the infected,yet somehow they got it themselves. Now I'm supposed to blindly trust the assurances of the folks at Emory Hospital because they are highly trained and using protective equipment? Not to mention the fact that the CDC's safety record has not been stellar recently.

Why could they not ship the equipment they needed to treat these two over to Africa instead of bringing them here? If they absolutely had to bring them here. Why could they not treat them in a more remote location? Why take such a ridiculous risk, no matter how small the chance of failure, when you don't have to?

[miked]

The facilities and equipment are so much better here than in the middle of Africa, I'm not sure what else we can say to really help you understand. Flying people over there is a much greater risk (because of facilities and care) than bringing them here. It's actually more of a risk to the patient to fly.

And the CDC found the smallpox samples in an NIH lab storage that had been there for 50-60 years (in some long closed place). So blame the NIH.

[miked]

Plus, you live in Atlanta. You are probably 1,000,000x more likely to die in a car accident or stroke than you are to catch Ebola.

[molson]

There's a difference between blind trust and just assuming that you know more than the experts. I'm far from an expert, but have read up some, and there's quite a few reasons it's almost impossible for Ebola to spread in developed countries. And that's without the precautions being taken here. And I'm sure the CDC appreciates the opportunity to study these incidents first-hand to further develop effective treatments.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Shepp

In the last two months they exposed about 80 workers to anthrax because of lax procedures. They also recently located live small pox cultures in an abandoned storage area. The lab director resigned over all of this about a week ago. Please forgive me if my faith in the CDC is fairly low at this point.

Don't forget them recently mislabeling and misplacing an dangerous strain of bird flu back in May.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by flounder

There is no medication for it. The only thing you can do to improve survival is to provide intensive supportive care (blood transfusions, IV fluids, etc.). We're much better able to provide that level of intensive care here than they are in Africa.

Well, other than the drug they just gave those 2 patients.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a difference between blind trust and just assuming that you know more than the experts. I'm far from an expert, but have read up some, and there's quite a few reasons it's almost impossible for Ebola to spread in developed countries. And that's without the precautions being taken here. And I'm sure the CDC appreciates the opportunity to study these incidents first-hand to further develop effective treatments.

I'm sure doctor Brantley was considered an expert and now he has it himself. From what I've read they suspect he and the nurse contacted it in the wash-down room of the facility they were working. No matter how much of an expert someone is they are still prone to make mistakes. I don't think it takes a very vivid imagination to see something similar happening here.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Shepp

I'm sure doctor Brantley was considered an expert and now he has it himself. From what I've read they suspect he and the nurse contacted it in the wash-down room of the facility they were working. No matter how much of an expert someone is they are still prone to make mistakes. I don't think it takes a very vivid imagination to see something similar happening here.

There's a difference between a charity clinic in the heart of ebola county and the CDC's facilities, or really, any facilities in North America. Even in the former, it's pretty tough to get infected. (There are a lot of U.S. and European volunteers there, and how many have gotten infected?) The facilities are hugely different as is the structure - it's easy for an individual to become complacent. It's not an airborne disease and it's not possible for it to spontaneously become one in these patients. It's possible for HIV to be transmitted in poor medical facilities in Africa, that doesn't mean even a typical North American hospital can't handle the risk, even though it is still theoretically possible for HIV to spread in American hospitals too.

Edit: This is a pretty good sourced breakdown of the reality v. the paranoia (i.e., the Donald Trump camp).

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-and-quackery/

[molson]

Originally Posted by miked

Flying people over there is a much greater risk (because of facilities and care) than bringing them here. It's actually more of a risk to the patient to fly.

They planes could theoretically crash into a house and kill the people inside. Planes have crashed into houses before.

[BillJasper]

If Ebola gets me, then it was obviously my time to go.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by molson

There's a difference between a charity clinic in the heart of ebola county and the CDC's facilities, or really, any facilities in North America.

If any facility in North America will do, then why wouldn't it be more prudent to treat them somewhere less populated than metro Atlanta? I'm not questioning the low chances of transmission. I'm wondering why we should be taking unnecessary risks.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Shepp

I don't understand how anyone can look at the decision to bring these folks back here for treatment and think its a good idea. The doctor and the nurse in question were treating Ebola patients in Africa. I assume they were wearing protective gear and trained in dealing with the infected,yet somehow they got it themselves. Now I'm supposed to blindly trust the assurances of the folks at Emory Hospital because they are highly trained and using protective equipment? Not to mention the fact that the CDC's safety record has not been stellar recently.

Why could they not ship the equipment they needed to treat these two over to Africa instead of bringing them here? If they absolutely had to bring them here. Why could they not treat them in a more remote location? Why take such a ridiculous risk, no matter how small the chance of failure, when you don't have to?

I'm going to guess you can't ship a giant electron microscope to Africa or any number of diagnostic tools we have that are large. The science is the valuable thing from bringing them back here. There's nothing you can bring to a place bad enough to have Ebola spreading that will give 1/10th the knowledge we gain from this.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Shepp

If any facility in North America will do, then why wouldn't it be more prudent to treat them somewhere less populated than metro Atlanta? I'm not questioning the low chances of transmission. I'm wondering why we should be taking unnecessary risks.

Wasn't the deal that they took them to 1 of 4 facilities that have the highest level of containment to minimize the risk?

Like anything, there is no way to shrink anything down to 0% risk. Getting out of bed in the morning has inherent risks. But I think the risks to Atlanta are less than the risks to everyone else if it's not studied in a first world setting.

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by Shepp

If any facility in North America will do, then why wouldn't it be more prudent to treat them somewhere less populated than metro Atlanta? I'm not questioning the low chances of transmission. I'm wondering why we should be taking unnecessary risks.

I didn't say any facility "will do", but the risk of Ebola transferring from any North American hospital into the general population is minuscule. But in terms of treatment, chance of survival, and opportunity to learn about the disease and treatment, surely the CDC and associated hospital is the best place. This is a situation of interest to the United States government. It's odd to me that you're worried about the risk of ebola running amok in Atlanta but you'd rather have a rural North Dakota hospital handling things. In reality, it's not going to spread in either place, but if you think that's a real risk, don't you want the experts on infectious diseases handling things?

[larrymcg421]

They better not let Ryan White come to my son's school!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

I didn't say any facility "will do", but the risk of Ebola transferring from any North American hospital into the general population is minuscule. But in terms of treatment, chance of survival, and opportunity to learn about the disease and treatment, surely the CDC and associated hospital is the best place. This is a situation of interest to the United States government. It's odd to me that you're worried about the risk of ebola running amok in Atlanta but you'd rather have a rural North Dakota hospital handling things. In reality, it's not going to spread in either place, but if you think that's a real risk, don't you want the experts on infectious diseases handling things?

It's classic NIMBY.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I didn't say any facility "will do", but the risk of Ebola transferring from any North American hospital into the general population is minuscule. But in terms of treatment, chance of survival, and opportunity to learn about the disease and treatment, surely the CDC and associated hospital is the best place. This is a situation of interest to the United States government. It's odd to me that you're worried about the risk of ebola running amok in Atlanta but you'd rather have a rural North Dakota hospital handling things. In reality, it's not going to spread in either place, but if you think that's a real risk, don't you want the experts on infectious diseases handling things?

There's also the fact that a large percentage of the reason the disease is spreading is people who don't understand the necessity for quarantine and, quite frankly, disposing of the bodies correctly and not trying to give them a "traditional" burial. I'd be a lot more worried about random people who either don't know they have symptoms or are trying to hide them (like the American who died in Nigeria, or the potential case in NYC) than from health care workers who self-quarantined themselves.

[ISiddiqui]

FWIW, most Atlantans think it is a VERY good idea to bring the ebola patients to Emory, which is literally across the street from the CDC (well, Emory hospital is more like 2 blocks, but the parking deck I used for my first year at law school was right across from the CDC south entrance ).

[JPhillips]

They are American citizens working a humanitarian mission. They deserve the best treatment we can provide.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by jeff061

All well and good, I just don't understand the point of bringing people back at all. What's the gain? Can't we fly the meds to them, rather than the other way around?

Aside from the better able to treat them thing, if you don't think the CDC is relishing this as a better opportunity to study the disease with tech that is not cost effective to be shipped over the Africa, you are nuts.

[bhlloy]

I'm sure the top doctors in the US aren't exactly queuing up to go to West Africa to treat him either.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by britrock88

And the Onion was on top it, as usual:

Experts: Ebola Vaccine At Least 50 White People Away | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Originally Posted by mckerney

GOP lawmaker: Migrant kids might have Ebola | TheHill

Originally Posted by molson

The Atlanta CDC always fucks shit up in novels and movies, but in real life, they've never once caused the extinction of humanity, so I'm inclined to trust their judgment on these things.

But what if the CDC hires white people that vote Republican? I'm sure that will scare the fuck out of the liberals.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are American citizens working a humanitarian mission. They deserve the best treatment we can provide.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I'm sure the top doctors in the US aren't exactly queuing up to go to West Africa to treat him either.

The Top Doctors in the US should be willing to take their talents to Africa to help unless they are damned sure they won't fuck this up. And if they are white doctors and vote Republican...how can we trust them!?

[bhlloy]

Been drinking much?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are American citizens working a humanitarian mission. They deserve the best treatment we can provide.

I agree but up to a practical point ...

If it wasn't ebola but something that is airborne, we wouldn't bring them back.

[path12]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They are American citizens working a humanitarian mission. They deserve the best treatment we can provide.

What he said.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree but up to a practical point ...

If it wasn't ebola but something that is airborne, we wouldn't bring them back.

They wouldn't do it publicly because people are freaking out about even this, but, I'm sure they could transfer people with infectious airborne diseases, and I bet they have.

[Julio Riddols]

I contracted it in Sierra Leone
Where there's lots of rain
and people got the EBOLA, E-B-O-L-A ebola...

I got a fever, started crapping my pants
I am in constant pain and I have no chance
With the ebola, E-B-O-L-A ebola, no, no no not ebola

Well, for whatever reason they're letting me fly
I'm gonna take my disease to the states and die
from the ebola, E-B-O-L-A, ebola..

Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why they think they can help me but I hope they can
with my ebola, E-B-O-L-A ebola..

Well, I'm in such pain I don't wanna survive
Wish Dr. K could take my life
This viral disease has got me on my knees
in a place designed by the CDC

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by jeff061

All well and good, I just don't understand the point of bringing people back at all. What's the gain? Can't we fly the meds to them, rather than the other way around?

They are Americans. Shouldn't they be given the best treatment possible from their country?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Shepp

If any facility in North America will do, then why wouldn't it be more prudent to treat them somewhere less populated than metro Atlanta? I'm not questioning the low chances of transmission. I'm wondering why we should be taking unnecessary risks.

You do understand that ebola isn't an airborne virus right?

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

They wouldn't do it publicly because people are freaking out about even this, but, I'm sure they could transfer people with infectious airborne diseases, and I bet they have.

Well, if it were as bad as Ebola and an airborne disease, they wouldn't do it, but if there were a disease with those characteristics, humankind would have been wiped out long before we developed the technology to be discussing it on computers.

When characterizing a disease's biosafety threat as level 1-4, both severity of symptoms and ease of transmission are considered. Ebola-like hemorrhagic fevers as well as smallpox characterize much of level 4. Smallpox is airborne and much, much more infectious than ebola, but much easier to treat (vaccination soon enough after exposure often takes care of it, and even if not the fatality rate is about half that of Ebola's).

In other words, yes they've likely transferred people with infectious airborne diseases before because the symptoms of most airborne diseases are not severe enough to cause a widespread panic.

For comparison's sake, lab work involving isolating HIV from blood samples is biosafety level 2+. That requires doing stuff like locking the room to prevent non-certified personnel from entering, only working with the samples from behind a pressurized hood, wearing a lab coat, multiple pairs of gloves, and eye protection while disposing of those and all other items used in a biohazard waste container. That sounds intense, but compare that to:

The entrance and exit of a level four biolab will contain multiple showers, a vacuum room, an ultraviolet light room, and other safety precautions designed to destroy all traces of the biohazard. Multiple airlocks are employed and are electronically secured to prevent both doors from opening at the same time. All air and water service going to and coming from a biosafety level 4 (or P4) lab will undergo similar decontamination procedures to eliminate the possibility of an accidental release.

The facility is either in a separate building or in a controlled area within a building, which is completely isolated from all other areas of the building. A specific facility operations manual is prepared or adopted. Building protocols for preventing contamination often use negatively pressurized facilities, which, even if compromised, would severely inhibit an outbreak of aerosol pathogens.

Suffice it to say there aren't too many labs capable of that and most of them are federal facilities, so that answers the whole why Atlanta thing.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

They are Americans. Shouldn't they be given the best treatment possible from their country?

That seems like an awfully high bar. Does that mean we fly back any American with any potentially life threatening disease in any, say, non-western European country?

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

They are Americans. Shouldn't they be given the best treatment possible from their country?

To what extent do we take that when they are in harm's way of their own accord?

[flounder]

Healthcare workers put themselves in harm's way of their own accord every day in this country. However, if we're going to start withholding care from them, that will probably change.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

The Atlanta CDC always fucks shit up in novels and movies, but in real life, they've never once caused the extinction of humanity, so I'm inclined to trust their judgment on these things.

I officially love this post.

Originally Posted by Dutch

The Top Doctors in the US should be willing to take their talents to Africa to help unless they are damned sure they won't fuck this up. And if they are white doctors and vote Republican...how can we trust them!?

Are you suggesting a problem to ship white Republicans to the ebola-striken parts of West Africa? If so, this is a cause I can get behind, Dutch!