NFL "Teams Behaving Badly" Thread: 2015

[albionmoonlight]

Bill Belichick vows "swift justice" for whoever failed to deflate 12th football - SportsPickle | SportsPickle

[mckerney]

NFL investigators have visited Browns over in-game texting | ProFootballTalk

Update on the Browns cheating scandal, hopefully the league is swift in suspending Mike Pettine for a season and stripping Cleveland of a this years draft picks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Update on the Browns cheating scandal, hopefully the league is swift in suspending Mike Pettine for a season and stripping Cleveland of a this years draft picks.

I must have missed the part where Pettine has a history of being fast & loose with silly things like rules.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I must have missed the part where Pettine has a history of being fast & loose with silly things like rules.

Cmon Jon, cheating is AOK. We all get to determine how important the integrity of the game is by how "serious" we think it is. I'm going to the office supply cabinet at the office tomorrow and am going to steal fifty pens. It's ok because everyone takes some office supplies and it isn't hurting how anyone else does their jobs. Wow, I can rationalize anything this way.

It's funny. Beli knew nothing. Brady knew nothing. Brady knows he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI, yet he can't tell the difference if it is lower or higher than that. Beli, the coach who knows everything about everything had no clue how the balls were handled before a game, even though his QB was responsible for helping change the rule in the first place.

I have plenty of faults, plenty of them. I'm glad cheating and lying aren't two of them. Someone may hate my guts and think I'm a worthless piece of garbage. But if they make that assessment about me, they are doing it knowing the real me. I can't imagine what it's like to be so successful in my life and still feel the need to cheat to get what I want. I wonder if people would rationalize it away if I cheated. My guess is no.

[ColtCrazy]

Maybe Brady is lying. Maybe Belichick is. Maybe they both are...but something isn't right here. I can't imagine both of them not knowing.

[EagleFan]

Probably both but Brady definitely is. He's a bad liar. Reminded me of my kids trying to lie to get out of something.

[Butter]

I know I said this was lame earlier in the thread, but that was before I knew we were going to get some serious fumble data analysis. I'm totally on board now, not even joking. I want to see more charts and graphs about this.

[miami_fan]

Better security on Superbowl Sunday: The Lombardi trophy or the Patriot game balls?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

Has there been any reporting on what the referees do during their inspection?

Do they actually bother to check the pressure, or do they just feel the balls and say "That's OK" unless a ball is obviously deflated. I kind of suspect that it would be the latter...

There is a lot of good info in this article:

Game 150: The Test | The MMQB with Peter King

“Got the game balls yet?” Mackie says to the locker-room attendant, and as if on cue an orange bag of 24 game balls arrives from a Bears equipment man. Minutes later the Ravens’ bag of 24 shows up. Usually it’s 12 per team, but with the threat of bad weather each team conditioned 24 balls during the week—the Chicago balls will be used when the Bears are on offense, Baltimore’s when the Ravens have the ball—and now Mackie, Waggoner and Paganelli go to work to get the balls prepared. One by one, as if on an assembly line, Mackie checks with a pressure gauge to see if the balls are filled to 12.5 to 13.5 pounds per square inch of pressure. Those that aren’t get taken to the bathroom. There Paganelli uses an electric pump to fill up the balls, Mackie checks the pressure, and Waggoner puts the good ones in the sink, until all are perfect. Then Waggoner marks each by silver Sharpie with an “L” below the NFL shield, Steratore’s branding of each ball so they’re not confused with other balls found on the sidelines. The “L” is in honor of Steratore’s fiancée.

[Grover]

Report: Lieutenant Called "The Cleaner" Also Steelers Security ChiefÂ*

Also, Jackson is saying he never said anything to any Colts officials or equipment managers about the balls seeming under-inflated.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Grover

Report: Lieutenant Called "The Cleaner" Also Steelers Security ChiefÂ*

Also, Jackson is saying he never said anything to any Colts officials or equipment managers about the balls seeming under-inflated.

Like the Brady news conference, that is pure garbage as well. Pagano did not report it, Jackson did not notice anything. . . This despite the fact the team had concerns about the balls in the previous game.

It takes away from the real story anyway. It does not matter how it was reported. It does not matter if the Patriots would ha e won by 3, 6, 14, or the exact amount of points they won by. The story is they cheated. I have seen nothing to get by that simple fact. The only thing I keep hearing is people trying to rationalize why the cheating doesn't matter.

[Grover]

Yes, players from both teams are lying about not noticing anything.

OK, Troy.

[Grover]

Also:

Colts Player: Officials Stopped Using Patriots' Balls In The First Half

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Grover

Also:

Colts Player: Officials Stopped Using Patriots' Balls In The First Half

So what?

It's all just deflecting from the fact that they deflated the balls, and likely have been doing it for some time.

They cheated, this is a fact that can not be denied.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So what?

It's all just deflecting from the fact that they deflated the balls, and likely have been doing it for some time.

They cheated, this is a fact that can not be denied.

It can't? I'll deny it until the NFL offers their official ruling on this.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Grover

Yes, players from both teams are lying about not noticing anything.

OK, Troy.

Grover, do you believe an equipment manager would not tell the head coach about a situation like that? Do you believe a team that had reservations about the balls being used in a game a month ago would forget about it and not be looking for it again? That some equipment manager would raise this to the refs without going through proper channels?

Do you believe Tom Brady, one of the single best QB's in the history of this game and a guy who has as much attention to detail as he has would not know the difference between 12.5psi and 10.5psi? You believe Beli has no clue about the balls on gameday? This is the best coach in the history of this game. This is a guy who knows everything that goes on with the team and he has no clue about the process his starting QB looks gets the balls for the game?

Seriously? Why the Colts are falling all over themselves to pretend they had nothing to do with this is something I cannot explain. But someone is lying for some reason. (Maybe they want to make sure the Patriots don't beat them by 70 nect year? It is easy to see why the Patriots are lying. That is obvious.

[MikeVic]

[Grover]

Obvious to you, perhaps.

Like I said, I'll wait.

[Grover]

My last statement in this thread...

You're on one side of the issue or the other. At this point, nobody is going to budge their point of view.

Agree to disagree.

It's amazing that this seems more egregious than Ray Rice beating his wife, or Adrian Peterson lashing his child. But then again, those are an outrage we can all agree on.

[ColtCrazy]

Kind of agree with Grover here. Frankly, I think Rice and Peterson should have been banned indefinitely and either Brady/Belichick (who ever is behind it) should be suspended a season. But as with most sports things, everyone falls into one of two camps and there's little chance of persuading them one way or another.

[jeff061]

At this point I'm just interested in what the NFL has to say. As of 4pm yesterday they hadn't even spoken to Brady and haven't made any statements. What the hell are they doing? There's so much to this story that's just not adding up and so many anonymous sources.

[NobodyHere]

What exactly would you expect Brady to say if questioned?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Grover

It's amazing that this seems more egregious than Ray Rice beating his wife, or Adrian Peterson lashing his child. But then again, those are an outrage we can all agree on.

I disagree with this characterization. You're falling for recency, because right now we're talking about the deflating balls. But you could not escape the Rice and Peterson things when they happened, either here or in the sports media in general. They were pretty much everywhere.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I disagree with this characterization. You're falling for recency, because right now we're talking about the deflating balls. But you could not escape the Rice and Peterson things when they happened, either here or in the sports media in general. They were pretty much everywhere.

This is within 100 posts of the Ray Rice topic here

[Chief Rum]

Generally, I can't stand Turd. But he said something this morning that I find to be very true, with respect to Belichek.

Turd said, you can't be the smartest guy in the league, and then expect us to accept you being "conveniently dumb" now.

n other words, here's Belichek, who seems like a God among coaches, does everything for a reason, very smart and detail-oriented, and suddenly just play dumb when it comes to stuff like this under his watch. Sorry, just doesn't pass the smell test.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What exactly would you expect Brady to say if questioned?

Unless there is some explanation for this whole situation that has not been reported that completely exonerates everyone on the Patriots.... he's lying. Everyone knows he's lying. What's the point? Longterm he'd come off much better just stating the truth.

I almost wonder if they really checked the balls before the game, despite what they said.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by jeff061

At this point I'm just interested in what the NFL has to say. As of 4pm yesterday they hadn't even spoken to Brady and haven't made any statements. What the hell are they doing? There's so much to this story that's just not adding up and so many anonymous sources.

My guess is they are dragging their feet on purpose. The last thing they want to do is suspend Brady or Belichek for the Superbowl. If they wait until after for punishement they can just claim they wanted to conduct a thorough investigation.

[jeff061]

Not the best PR move. They could straight come out and say they aren't suspending anyone for the Superbowl because it's the Superbowl and I think that would be better received than silence and perceived incompetence.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

Kind of agree with Grover here. Frankly, I think Rice and Peterson should have been banned indefinitely and either Brady/Belichick (who ever is behind it) should be suspended a season. But as with most sports things, everyone falls into one of two camps and there's little chance of persuading them one way or another.

A season?! Holy crap, that is insane. In hockey you get a 2 minute minor penalty for an illegal curve. In baseball you get ejected from the game and possibly a small suspension for using pine tar on a ball. And you want a guy to get an entire season for a deflated football?

[jeff061]

Yeah. Because Spygate. Am i rite??!?!!

[Lathum]

I think a lot of people are saying a year because that is what Sean Payton got. I think they are using it as a starting point.

Not saying I agree, but it would be entertaining.

I wonder if Belicheck gets a year if he just walks away? He isn't exactly young, and Brady is almost done. He could walk away and not have to suffer having his legacy tarnished with a string of losing seasons once Brady hangs em up.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Grover

This is within 100 posts of the Ray Rice topic here

The Ray Rice thread itself perhaps. But there was tons of Ray Rice talk at at least two different times, and in other various NFL threads. Trust me, Ray Rice was tons bigger.

[Kodos]

A coworker who is a New England fan fell and hurt her knee, so we are sending her flowers and a card. When I signed it, I got to say "Don't worry if your knee is swelling. I'm sure Tom Brady would be happy to swing by and deflate it for you."

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Grover

This is within 100 posts of the Ray Rice topic here

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The Ray Rice thread itself perhaps. But there was tons of Ray Rice talk at at least two different times, and in other various NFL threads. Trust me, Ray Rice was tons bigger.

Most people were pretty much in agreement on Rice (except Goodell originally, of course) whereas the arguing back and forth was a bit more ongoing here.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Unless there is some explanation for this whole situation that has not been reported that completely exonerates everyone on the Patriots.... he's lying. Everyone knows he's lying. What's the point? Longterm he'd come off much better just stating the truth.

I almost wonder if they really checked the balls before the game, despite what they said.

!
I'd wager that referee Walt Anderson only checked 1 of the balls. Especially if the other 11 were all exactly the same pressure.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The Ray Rice thread itself perhaps. But there was tons of Ray Rice talk at at least two different times, and in other various NFL threads. Trust me, Ray Rice was tons bigger.

I looked back on that because of something I read in the Goodell thread. There wasn't very much Ray Rice talk until the video. He was playing and getting standing ovations in Baltimore.

After the video, it's close, but I think this might be bigger. We don't even have any word from the NFL yet.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by molson

I looked back on that because of something I read in the Goodell thread. There wasn't very much Ray Rice talk until the video. He was playing and getting standing ovations in Baltimore.

This I just don't get. How do you cheer for a player who has been known to beat up women?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

I looked back on that because of something I read in the Goodell thread. There wasn't very much Ray Rice talk until the video. He was playing and getting standing ovations in Baltimore.

After the video, it's close, but I think this might be bigger. We don't even have any word from the NFL yet.

I think that Logan is right that there wasn't disagreement on the Rice thing, so that makes actual post numbers here at FOFC more in line. But that Rice thing was absolutely everywhere for what felt like a month. You couldn't avoid it, even if you don't follow sports.

This thing is going to have to get a whole lot bigger before I begin to put it in the same stratosphere as Ray Rice.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think a lot of people are saying a year because that is what Sean Payton got. I think they are using it as a starting point.

It's a crazy starting point. Bounty Gate is a player safety issue. People were literally being paid to hurt other people. This is a competitive imbalance issue. Brady (or whoever) tried to gain a competitive edge. So lets compare to other issues of players cheating to gain a competitive edge. The easiest to see in football is probably steroids. Guys get what, 4 games for that? And the coaches get nothing. And you can't tell me that coaches would be any more or less aware or responsible of steroid use than ball doctoring. So 4 games for 'roiding up, which I would argue is both far more impactful than ball air pressure and also starts to cross lines into the player safety realm (faster, stronger, concussions, etc).

If this warrants any suspension at all I can't see how it could be for anything more than 1 or 2 games.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

It's a crazy starting point. Bounty Gate is a player safety issue. People were literally being paid to hurt other people. This is a competitive imbalance issue. Brady (or whoever) tried to gain a competitive edge. So lets compare to other issues of players cheating to gain a competitive edge. The easiest to see in football is probably steroids. Guys get what, 4 games for that? And the coaches get nothing. And you can't tell me that coaches would be any more or less aware or responsible of steroid use than ball doctoring. So 4 games for 'roiding up, which I would argue is both far more impactful than ball air pressure and also starts to cross lines into the player safety realm (faster, stronger, concussions, etc).

If this warrants any suspension at all I can't see how it could be for anything more than 1 or 2 games.

I agree. Even if they find this has been going on for years, I can't see a full season suspension. Worst case, they should get a small suspension (1-2 games), lose some cap space and a pick or two. But, I have no idea with Goodell. I'm in the "Tyson zone" on punishment levying by him. I could see just a 25K fine because him and Kraft are buddies and he wants to minimize this in hopes it goes away. Or, I could see him suspending Brady for half a season because he wants to show he's not a pushover. All options are open at this point.

[Kodos]

The history of cheating in the franchise to me should inflate the punishment. And if it is a supsension, it should start with the Super Bowl. The infraction occurred this season. The punishment should too.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Kodos

The history of cheating in the franchise to me should inflate the punishment. And if it is a supsension, it should start with the Super Bowl. The infraction occurred this season. The punishment should too.

Really? So should the next Seahawks player that gets caught using a banned substance be punished more than 4 games because the franchise has a history of banned substance abusers?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think a lot of people are saying a year because that is what Sean Payton got. I think they are using it as a starting point.

Not saying I agree, but it would be entertaining.

I wonder if Belicheck gets a year if he just walks away? He isn't exactly young, and Brady is almost done. He could walk away and not have to suffer having his legacy tarnished with a string of losing seasons once Brady hangs em up.

This is madness. Can't believe that this thing is still running. Can't believe it was ever a thing in the first place.

[molson]

Suspensions or other serious individual penalties just aren't happening unless the NFL can prove that actual specified individuals did something. And I think it's going to be hard for them to prove that. People are kind of skipping that part.

This is an interesting theory. The Patriots could have screwed with the football levels by inflating and storing them in a 90+ degree room. If they did that, they could have passed inspection, and then deflated fairly quickly over time outside without any tampering, even though it was pretty warm that day.

Science! One Way To Deflate a Football Without Even Touching It - Patriots - Boston.com

If it wasn't something like this, then ball boys are manually deflating balls on the sidelines, and you'd think that some video or photo of that would emerge (or of them smuggling the balls back into the stadium for tampering).

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Kodos

The history of cheating in the franchise to me should inflate the punishment. And if it is a supsension, it should start with the Super Bowl. The infraction occurred this season. The punishment should too.

The history of Suh being a dirty player didn't get him suspended for stepping on Rodgers.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by molson

Suspensions or other serious individual penalties just aren't happening unless the NFL can prove that actual specified individuals did something. And I think it's going to be hard for them to prove that. People are kind of skipping that part.

This is an interesting theory. The Patriots could have screwed with the football levels by inflating and storing them in a 90+ degree room. If they did that, they could have passed inspection, and then deflated fairly quickly over time outside without any tampering, even though it was pretty warm that day.

Science! One Way To Deflate a Football Without Even Touching It - Patriots - Boston.com

If it wasn't something like this, then ball boys are manually deflating balls on the sidelines, and you'd think that some video or photo of that would emerge (or of them smuggling the balls back into the stadium for tampering).

We focus on the temperature difference yet neglect the atmospheric conditions. It seemed as if a front moved in and with the rain usually brings a low pressure system. If the pressure in the atmosphere decreases, the pressure inside the ball actually increases which could counter act any theories on the temperature deflating the ball.

The nerd in me looked back in my old Thermodynamics books and we have (P1*V1)/T1 = (P2*V2)/T2. Tampering aside we have V1 = V2. And P1 and P2 are comprised of P1 = (P1ball + P1atmosphere) and P2 = (P2ball + P2atmosphere).

The atmospherice and temperature data are readily available so it should make the pressure drop (or increase) due to the weather only an easy calculation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Really? So should the next Seahawks player that gets caught using a banned substance be punished more than 4 games because the franchise has a history of banned substance abusers?

While I view banned substance use as more individual to the player and, like you, I wouldn't support greater punishment for a player just because of a franchise's history, I do believe that Pete Carroll doesn't exactly police his players too much when it comes to this stuff. And I believe he does that intentionally.

Of course, my opinion on that could be influenced by the fact I believe that Carroll is a two-faced, cheating bastard.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Kodos

The history of cheating in the franchise to me should inflate the punishment. And if it is a supsension, it should start with the Super Bowl. The infraction occurred this season. The punishment should too.

I agree with the idea that the punishment should be bigger because the Pats have been caught cheating before. I don't agree with anything else you said, though.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Grover

The history of Suh being a dirty player didn't get him suspended for stepping on Rodgers.

It should have.

[Logan]

On punishment, you also have to remember that the PED suspension amounts are collectively bargained. If there was no such thing as a union, would those suspensions be the same? That's essentially what we're dealing with here on Belichick and for anything player-related that falls outside of anything that's been established in writing.

I don't think we see suspensions either outside of some smoking gun emerging, as it's just going to be too hard to prove...but yeah I think if that were to happen, a year for Belichick and/or Brady would be perfectly valid. There's a whole lot of stuff that could fall under "attempting to gain a competitive advantage" when you're talking about professional sports but if what actually happened was that someone was involved in purposely altering the ball after it had gone through a league-required inspection process...I mean, that's some serious fucking stones. And that's what you (attempt to) punish.