The 2010 MLB Season Thread

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I would define successful as someone who performed at their pre-TJ potential for 3-5 years post-surgery.

I would say John, Smoltz, Carpenter, Hudson (though he's really only 1 year in), and Burnett. Josh Johnson, Liriano, and possibly Anibal Sanchez are definitely the current poster children, though its still early. Ryan Dempster may be on the right track.

I'm not saying its not possible for a starter to come back from Tommy John surgery, but its not like there's a long list of them who have come back and been successful starters. Any person who gets it electively is an idiot and the doctor deserves to be jailed.

But the real test needs to be full maturity in the bigs, followed by surgery, and then getting back to the bigs and comparing the results on either side.

Many of the above (Johnson, Liriano, Sanchez, my example of Adenhart) did not reach a point where scouts or baseball people would call them finished products before they got hurt. So we don't know what their baseline level of performance in the majors would be prior to the injuries, with which to compare their post-injury performances.

If you strictly use performance, you can't really use the above examples one way or the other, because we just don't have the stats to know how these players would have performed as fully matured major league pitchers.

To judge these players, you need to go to the scouting reports and the radar gun before and after to get an idea on whether those players returned to their previous levels of ability. As an example, Adenhart, a fireballer in HS pre-injury, did indeed get back his major fastball and by all accounts was the same pitcher post injury that he was pre-injury. I can't speak to the cases of the others, as I never read scouting reports on any of them (prior to since they got hurt).

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I have eevn heard some pitchers say they feel the ligament (and arm) is actually stronger than prior to the surgery.

This is because they were pitching with a damaged ligament for some time before having the surgery.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This is because they were pitching with a damaged ligament for some time before having the surgery.

Hmm, while certainly there has to have been a period of "injury" prior to the surgery, I don't know we can rule out the assertions of these players on the basis of this supposition alone. That would seem to be assuming far too mcuh about what these pitchers are remembering and from when they are remembering it.

[DaddyTorgo]

They were saying before he was drafted that Strasburg had the "Mark Prior style" (like chicken wings?) delivery that made him a huge injury risk.

Not a surprise at all - although maybe a surprise it happened so quickly.

[stevew]

Sack and I were having the discussion about service time. I'm fairly certain they would put him on the 60 day DL, he'd remain there next season and gain a whole year of service time. Are they able to option him to AAA next spring, or would that be contested by his agent/MLBPA?

[molson]

So assuming the report is true, who the heck claimed Manny Ramirez on waivers and think he's worth $4 million for the rest of the season?

And does a team get the compensatory draft pick if they "lose" a player to free agency after only having him on the roster for a month? If so, I can almost see Boston spending $4 million for a draft pick and the for the twisted satisfaction of burrying Manny on the bench in a contract year.

And is a player's no-trade clause implicated if he's just let go on waivers to another team?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Hmm, while certainly there has to have been a period of "injury" prior to the surgery, I don't know we can rule out the assertions of these players on the basis of this supposition alone. That would seem to be assuming far too mcuh about what these pitchers are remembering and from when they are remembering it.

Here's an article that quotes a sports medicine doctor:
Farewell to young baseball arms - Charleston SC - The Post and Courier - postandcourier.com

"There's this myth out there that kids get stronger after Tommy John surgery, that they can throw as hard as they want and for as long as they want and then have surgery and get even better," Geier said. "That's a horrible idea."


"Sure, a high school pitcher comes back stronger than just before he was operated on and was weak," Geier said. "But while healing he is growing and had he not had surgery would have grown stronger anyway and would have had more velocity in his pitches anyway. So, of course, you're stronger after the surgery but it's not the surgery, it's because you had aggressive rehab and because you're older and stronger anyway."

Will Carroll shot this down in an Under the Knife column last year after talking to doctors as well.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Everything I've read has said he will lose a year of service time. Nothing they can do since he is injured.

Mechanics have never really been my thing, but I vaguely recall there being a backlash against all the inverted W stuff (maybe from Carroll?) that many people were taking seriously. Am I crazy?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by molson

So assuming the report is true, who the heck claimed Manny Ramirez on waivers and think he's worth $4 million for the rest of the season?

And does a team get the compensatory draft pick if they "lose" a player to free agency after only having him on the roster for a month? If so, I can almost see Boston spending $4 million for a draft pick and the for the twisted satisfaction of burrying Manny on the bench in a contract year.

And is a player's no-trade clause implicated if he's just let go on waivers to another team?

Manny can't be offered Arbitration. And if he was offered, he would be eligible for a 1 year 16m dollar deal by accepting(max of 10% decrease)

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

Manny can't be offered Arbitration. And if he was offered, he would be eligible for a 1 year 16m dollar deal by accepting(max of 10% decrease)

Ahh, thanks.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Everything I've read has said he will lose a year of service time. Nothing they can do since he is injured.

Mechanics have never really been my thing, but I vaguely recall there being a backlash against all the inverted W stuff (maybe from Carroll?) that many people were taking seriously. Am I crazy?

I think it was Chris O'Leary who started the anti-inverted W movement. I could be wrong.

He is the guy that pointed out that Prior's mechanics were a problem and Strasburg's as well. Not everyone is sold on the inverted W being the problem with these pitchers though.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think it was Chris O'Leary who started the anti-inverted W movement. I could be wrong.

He is the guy that pointed out that Prior's mechanics were a problem and Strasburg's as well. Not everyone is sold on the inverted W being the problem with these pitchers though.

Seems like empirical evidence is proving him right yet again though.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think it was Chris O'Leary who started the anti-inverted W movement. I could be wrong.

He is the guy that pointed out that Prior's mechanics were a problem and Strasburg's as well. Not everyone is sold on the inverted W being the problem with these pitchers though.

I posted this in the other thread, O'Leary is the author of this blog post:

Here's a good blog post about the inverted W for anyone needing a refresher. Interestingly enough, both Jeremy Bonderman and Anthony Reyes were listed as pitchers with an increased risk of injury (the post was written several years ago) and the poster was right about both players, who have lost time with arm and shoulder injuries the last few years.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Here's an article that quotes a sports medicine doctor:
Farewell to young baseball arms - Charleston SC - The Post and Courier - postandcourier.com



Will Carroll shot this down in an Under the Knife column last year after talking to doctors as well.

Cool, figured there might be something out there like this. Thanks for sharing.

[miked]

I thought the secret team that claimed Manny was Chicago?

[stevew]

is this inverted W? It may be hard to tell from this picture.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by stevew

is this inverted W? It may be hard to tell from this picture.

That looks like it. The thing to look for is the pitching arm's elbow raising above shoulder level. O'Leary has pointed out that guys like Carlos Marmol and Randy Johnson appear to have inverted W mechanics, but their elbows never go above the shoulder.

[cartman]

Why did it become "the inverted W" instead of "the M"?

[DaddyTorgo]

good question. haha

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

That looks like it. The thing to look for is the pitching arm's elbow raising above shoulder level. O'Leary has pointed out that guys like Carlos Marmol and Randy Johnson appear to have inverted W mechanics, but their elbows never go above the shoulder.

The other thing to look for is when the arm starts moving forward to deliver the pitch. It's been argued by Kyle Boddy (who build off work started by Chris O'Leary) that the "inverted W" is just an indicator of the real problem, which is being "late" in bringing the arm forward which supposedly causes greater layback in the arm at the shoulder joint (and also causing greater stress on the elbow).

If you think of the motion as a kinetic chain, here are the steps:

1. As the pitcher drives toward the release point, there is some level of twist that builds up between the hips and the shoulders. The hips and shoulders generally start oriented roughly 90 degrees away from the catcher - for a RHP, that means the hips and shoulders are pointing towards 3rd base, or 90 degrees counter-clockwise from the catcher. As the pitcher drives forward in his stride, the hips start turning towards the catcher before the shoulders do; the more separation there is between the hips and shoulders, the more "whip" action happens as the shoulders accelerate to catch up to the hips, and the more the core muscles propel the arm forward. In extreme cases, like Tim Lincecum, the hip/shoulder separation can approach 90 degrees, with the hips pointed forward to the catcher while the shoulder line is still pointing towards 3rd base.



2. Every windup and delivery is unique, but one common feature is that at some point as the pitcher is striding forward, he brings his arm up and in a position to quickly whip it forward and deliver the pitch. This is when the violence begins in the shoulder, as the arm rotates backwards to an extreme, stressing the shoulder. The arm is still bent somewhat at the elbow, but as the arm moves forward, the forearm is both rotating and extending, and about the point where the ball is released, the arm is straight, putting a great deal of stress on the elbow. As the arm continues forward, the forearm rotates (or continues to rotate) inward and the elbow is bent again as the arm carries into the follow-through motion.

The argument about the "inverted W" (Chris O'Leary) and the "timing problem" (Kyle Boddy) has to do with when the arm cocks up in the throwing position relative to the forward foot plant; Boddy argues that the problem with the "inverted W" is it leads to the arm getting into the throwing position late, i.e. after the forward foot plant, which leads to greater layback on the arm and thus greater stress on the shoulder joint (and by extension the elbow as well). Here's an example of what Boddy considers late timing:



Compare that with this, which is considered good timing:



O'Leary also focuses a lot on planes, and whether the elbow is cocked above the level of the shoulders as the pitcher's arm is in the ready position, theorizing that this higher angle also puts greater stress on the arm. As well, there are concerns about how far back a pitcher takes his arm in the windup phase as he swings his arm back and up into the ready position - some really try to take their arms well behind their backs (think of rotating your clavicle back and trying to touch your elbow to your back) - this increases the stress on the shoulder.

Also, another thing to note is that many pitching analysts and coaches (Mike Marshall being a particularly extreme example) believe that pronation of the elbow at delivery significantly reduces the strain and stress on the elbow of the pitching motion.

Now, it's important to note that analysis of pitching mechanics is still in a relatively early stage, and there are a lot of theories out there, many of which conflict with each other. The other thing to keep in mind (and this is even more important) is that mechanics are only part of the equation - the bigger piece is the particular pitcher's biology. In particular, it would seem the flexibility of their tendons is key - the more rigid your tendons are, the more prone they'll be to snapping under heavy torque.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

So assuming the report is true, who the heck claimed Manny Ramirez on waivers and think he's worth $4 million for the rest of the season?

And does a team get the compensatory draft pick if they "lose" a player to free agency after only having him on the roster for a month? If so, I can almost see Boston spending $4 million for a draft pick and the for the twisted satisfaction of burrying Manny on the bench in a contract year.

And is a player's no-trade clause implicated if he's just let go on waivers to another team?

He has a .394 wOBA and ,920 OPS, both higher than anyone on the Red Sox other than (the injured) Kevin Youkilis. It doesn't matter because the other Sox claimed him, but you don't think he'd be an upgrade over Bill Hall or Ryan Kalish?

Teams do get the picks for late season acquisitions (see: Billy Wagner last year), but as stevew pointed out, Manny can't be offered arbitration.

There was discussion on a different message board about no-trade clauses when the Red Sox claimed Johnny Damon, and it's pretty certain that "no-trade" is actually a misnomer - it's more of a "no-assignment" clause where a player can reject a waiver claim, but without seeing the exact language of each contract I can't say for certain.

[stevew]

Strasburg should adopt an East German approach to training himself back. As with Voltron, there's really no loss other than money.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He has a .394 wOBA and ,920 OPS, both higher than anyone on the Red Sox other than (the injured) Kevin Youkilis. It doesn't matter because the other Sox claimed him, but you don't think he'd be an upgrade over Bill Hall or Ryan Kalish?

I don't think one player is going to win you a lot of games or necessarily be all that different than what you have over 5 weeks. Especially when you have to factor in at least one DL-stint and a couple of no-shows. And even the OPS drops to .854 in games since his April injury.

For $4 million. I don't know how that makes sense for any team, but I hope to be able to watch it unfold with Chicago.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't think one player is going to win you a lot of games or necessarily be all that different than what you have over 5 weeks. Especially when you have to factor in at least one DL-stint and a couple of no-shows. And even the OPS drops to .854 in games since his April injury.

For $4 million. I don't know how that makes sense for any team, but I hope to be able to watch it unfold with Chicago.

You're biased against him if you're assuming he goes on the DL and no-shows in a 5-week span. Best-case scenario is 2008 after he went to the Dodgers where he added 2-3 wins (fangraphs doesn't split out wpa by team), which was the difference between them making the playoffs or not, and led them to the 2nd round. Even without adding in any additional fans or interest he brought via personality and star power, making the playoffs alone is worth around $15-20 million. Now, you take a White Sox team that is 3.5 out and BP gives a 14% chance of making the playoffs, and replace who - Mark Teahan? Andruw Jones? (I would say Juan Pierre, but clearly he's not leaving the lineup) with Ramirez, maybe it ups the chances 10%.

Does it make sense fiscally once all the numbers and probabilities are broken down? Probably not, but most owners care about more than just the bottom line, or they'd be running their teams like the Pirates, so once you're already spending ~$150 million ($105m payroll+all the other costs), what's another $4 million for a piece that gives you an additional 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 shot at the playoffs?

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

You're biased against him if you're assuming he goes on the DL and no-shows in a 5-week span. Best-case scenario is 2008 after he went to the Dodgers where he added 2-3 wins (fangraphs doesn't split out wpa by team), which was the difference between them making the playoffs or not, and led them to the 2nd round. Even without adding in any additional fans or interest he brought via personality and star power, making the playoffs alone is worth around $15-20 million. Now, you take a White Sox team that is 3.5 out and BP gives a 14% chance of making the playoffs, and replace who - Mark Teahan? Andruw Jones? (I would say Juan Pierre, but clearly he's not leaving the lineup) with Ramirez, maybe it ups the chances 10%.

Does it make sense fiscally once all the numbers and probabilities are broken down? Probably not, but most owners care about more than just the bottom line, or they'd be running their teams like the Pirates, so once you're already spending ~$150 million ($105m payroll+all the other costs), what's another $4 million for a piece that gives you an additional 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 shot at the playoffs?

I'm definitely bias against Ramirez, but also against late-season acquisitions. Especially when the late-season is late August. Ramirez, or whoever, might be better than a replacement player in that small sample size, but I don't think he (or almost anyone) is going to significantly increase your playoff chances at this point (and they could easily hurt them - would it be that shocking if Manny had a bad September?). And best-case scenario has to be something less than 2008, since he's 2 years older now, and a far worse player by every measure.

[kingfc22]

Damnit Lincecum. I get home from dinner only to see you have given up 4 runs before the 5th inning, AGAIN!

[DaddyTorgo]

re: manny

i thought a lot of the money was deferred so it's less than $2mil they're picking up this year

[Suicane75]

Jim Tracy is horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Like 3 of Ubaldos last 4 starts he's been left out too long when a blind bird with his head up a frogs ass could see it.

[Izulde]

FWIW, I think Manny will mean a significant number of wins for us over the course of the season. Our DH situation was horrible and now that we finally have a legit DH, the offense will improve considerably.

And with the White Sox being 3 games back, the difference he provides might just be enough.

[stevew]

By significant you mean 1 to 2 right?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm definitely bias(ed) against Ramirez, but also against late-season acquisitions. Especially when the late-season is late August. Ramirez, or whoever, might be better than a replacement player in that small sample size, but I don't think he (or almost anyone) is going to significantly increase your playoff chances at this point (and they could easily hurt them - would it be that shocking if Manny had a bad September?). And best-case scenario has to be something less than 2008, since he's 2 years older now, and a far worse player by every measure.

I tend to agree that statistically late-season acquisitions are rarely worth much, but whether Manny turns into Roy Hobbs or shits the bed, replacing a DH (or two) who OPS .700 with one around .900 is an upgrade, and the potential tails of the curve either way don't change that (I also disagree that Manny's best-case scenario is far worse than fall 2008 - between sss and the chance he hits better with a chip on his shoulder, I wouldn't put a 1.200+ ops month out of his grasp.)

There has been a lot of work done on marginal wins, the amount their cost increases above 90/92 wins, and the amount scarcity near/after the trade deadline plays. Is the slight upgrade in playoff chances worth $4 million? - again, probably not in the long-term, but considering the amount teams pay for a whole season and the average cost in talent of in-season acquisitions, I don't think $4 million in pure cash is a bad deal. Personalities aside I would support it 100% for the Red Sox, and for a team like the White Sox that might not have a chance to make the playoffs every year he actually might be more valuable.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by stevew

By significant you mean 1 to 2 right?

And by "over the course of the season," I assume he means like 25-30 games, right?

[stevew]

I know it's stupid to gush over players on a shit team like the Pirates, but IF Jose Tabata is 22 years old i think he has a very bright future. I can see him being in the hunt for the batting title multiple times.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by stevew

Jose Tabata is 22 years old

25 in US years.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by panerd

Plus if the season ended today Cinci would avoid playing in September. We will see your guys September 3rd after our road trip consisting of Houston, Pittsburgh, and Washington.

[DeToxRox]

Okay Angels fans, this guy has to be a Troll right?

Mike Napoli Claimed on Waivers, Not in Lineup Sunday - Halos Heaven

The White Sox have the worst record of any team still in the AL hunt. However, a team out of contention might look kindly on two more years of arbitration-ruled club control for Napoli. Could the Detroit Tigers have made a claim and will offer Miguel Cabrera in a trade to the Angels for Napoli? Cabrera's hefty salary and tipsy reputation would have had an easier chance at clearing waivers than many sluggers. Players claimed on waivers can only be traded to the claiming team. All players involved in a trade that are on a major league club's 40-man roster.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Brian F'n McCann FTW !

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Brian F'n McCann FTW !

I was listening on the radio and almost swerved off the road. I can't believe they did it yet again!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Okay Angels fans, this guy has to be a Troll right?

Mike Napoli Claimed on Waivers, Not in Lineup Sunday - Halos Heaven

I am away from home & posting from my phone, so I didn't follow the link. That said, if it's the main guy on Halo's Heaven, he's not a troll; he's legit. Halo's Heaven is one of the top Angels blogs.

This actually wouldn't surprise me. The Angels have coveted Mcab for a while. Tried to get him from the Marlins & there were Mcab to the Angels rumors this year at the trade deadline this year. Angels have big time organizational depth at catcher and scioscia loves Mathis behind the plate, even though the Angels desperately need Nap's bat in the lineup (this is a source of contention between fans & scioscia).

Then work in the atmosphere. Management is disgusted by how this team has done, & Moreno wants a winner. Watching the Angels on offense this season has been excruciating. I have never seen a more pathetic lineup by a supposed "contender".

[BishopMVP]

Without even getting into why the Tigers would trade MCab now instead of last offseason before he put up this great season, everything I've seen says it was the Red Sox who were awarded the claim on Napoli. Trade=unlikely though.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Brian F'n McCann FTW !

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I was listening on the radio and almost swerved off the road. I can't believe they did it yet again!

Gah! Annoying.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Do you seriously think Cabrera would get through waivers? I mean, that sounds preposterous to me.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Without even getting into why the Tigers would trade MCab now instead of last offseason before he put up this great season, everything I've seen says it was the Red Sox who were awarded the claim on Napoli. Trade=unlikely though.

Yeah, Boston Red Sox news posted that they claimed him off waivers but have to work out details, or Angels can keep him. Red Sox claim Angels' Napoli off waivers | redsox.com: News

/tk

[Chief Rum]

Halo's Heaven now has the Red Sox as the claiming team, so that seems to be the word out there.

I really hope that a trade doesn't happen. Napoli is a perfect fit for Fenway, and I would guess that he would slide right into a DH role after Ortiz leaves (not sure when Ortiz's contract is up and he's doing better this season, but still...) and become a huge power bat for them.

I have always felt that Scioscia's awful way of handling hitters and putting together lineups has always limited Napoli, who, if he ever get consistent time at one position and one spot in the lineup, could be a regular 30-40 HR guy. This is exactly the situation I would fear as an Angels fan, that they would ship Napoli (with decreased value because of how Scioscia has played him) for a prospect or two to a despised rival, and then watch him blossom into a lineup anchor for the Sox.

So I really hope the Angels are holding the Sox to a high standard in any trade for Nap. If they trade him to the Sox, it damn well better hurt for the Sox to make that trade.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Do you seriously think Cabrera would get through waivers? I mean, that sounds preposterous to me.

Contract. Last year's off field issues.

Yeah, I could see that happening.

That said, it seems clear now that it's the Red Sox that have claimed Naps.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Contract. Last year's off field issues.

Yeah, I could see that happening.

That said, it seems clear now that it's the Red Sox that have claimed Naps.

The speculation last offseason was that those issues might make him available cheaply in a trade, but nothing in his conduct or performance this season has diminished his value even further to the point he would pass through waivers. I mean, you're talking about Mike Napoli and his .850-.900 OPS upside sliding in as Red Sox DH. You think we wouldn't take Miguel Cabrera at no talent cost? Maybe his contract is $3-$4 million too much per year, but I think we've learned our lesson post-Teixeira and would accept that to acquire one of the 20-25 legitimate middle of the order bats.

Napoli alone I would definitely take for free considering the team control years left, but I wouldn't be happy if they slotted him in as Ortiz's heir apparent at DH. Same rationale with re-signing Victor Martinez and sliding him over to DH/1B permanently - an .800-.850 OPS from even a below average defensive catcher is enough to make him near-elite, but is league average out of the DH/1B position. I'm guessing at this point we pick up Ortiz's option for 1 more year, or try to sign Adam Dunn to a 1-2 year stopgap deal.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The speculation last offseason was that those issues might make him available cheaply in a trade, but nothing in his conduct or performance this season has diminished his value even further to the point he would pass through waivers. I mean, you're talking about Mike Napoli and his .850-.900 OPS upside sliding in as Red Sox DH. You think we wouldn't take Miguel Cabrera at no talent cost? Maybe his contract is $3-$4 million too much per year, but I think we've learned our lesson post-Teixeira and would accept that to acquire one of the 20-25 legitimate middle of the order bats.

Napoli alone I would definitely take for free considering the team control years left, but I wouldn't be happy if they slotted him in as Ortiz's heir apparent at DH. Same rationale with re-signing Victor Martinez and sliding him over to DH/1B permanently - an .800-.850 OPS from even a below average defensive catcher is enough to make him near-elite, but is league average out of the DH/1B position. I'm guessing at this point we pick up Ortiz's option for 1 more year, or try to sign Adam Dunn to a 1-2 year stopgap deal.

You guys wouldn't get a shot at Cabrera before the Angels do. Would a team with a worse record than the Angels in the AL (what is that 7-8 teams?) take on a contract that big? I doubt it.

[BishopMVP]

But then that's him being traded to the claiming team, not him passing through waivers and being available to anyone. (I'm unsure on what happens if the Red Sox claimed Napoli and the Angels a Red Sox like Kalish made it through to LAA. Could the two be traded for each other even though neither passed through waivers? I would lean yes, but not sure 100%.)

Either way, the excitable part of Red Sox nation has been sucked into the pipe dream of a cheap, available Miguel Cabrera too, but I don't think Detroit has ever been close to as eager to get rid of him as either of our fanbases think/wish them to be.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

But then that's him being traded to the claiming team, not him passing through waivers and being available to anyone. (I'm unsure on what happens if the Red Sox claimed Napoli and the Angels a Red Sox like Kalish made it through to LAA. Could the two be traded for each other even though neither passed through waivers? I would lean yes, but not sure 100%.)

Either way, the excitable part of Red Sox nation has been sucked into the pipe dream of a cheap, available Miguel Cabrera too, but I don't think Detroit has ever been close to as eager to get rid of him as either of our fanbases think/wish them to be.

I was figuring Cabrera hasn't passed through waivers yet actually. He would have to be for this trade to happen of course (whcih isn't happening, since the Sox claimed, but you get my hypothetical...), and then when he was, the Angels would claim him before the Red Sox got a shot, so then a Napoli deal with Cabrera would happen without the Sox ever getting involved.

But, like I said, moot point. I actually do think the Tigers aren't that anxious to keep him, because of the contract. That may have eased some with his season this year, but that's still a hefty contract. Lot of rumors out there the past year for a guy a team doesn't have some interest in moving.

[terpkristin]

ManRam to ChiSox?

/tk