The 2010 MLB Season Thread

[Dr. Sak]

Can you blame him...the Pirates already drove their one annonucer, Lanny Frattare, to drink.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Maybe not so much for how he quit, but why he quit - he didn't want to accept the various responsibilities of the job, and it sounds like those are common to most jobs in the industry. So why hire him? There has to be something more to this, or else that guy was really, really stupid. Maybe in addition to his desk job, he was being asked to get coffee or take the boss's drycleaning or something.

He probably was asked to do these things and, honestly, it's not too far out of line of what he should expect as a minor league employee. Yes, interns usually handle those kinds of things but when it comes down to it everyone does everything. The word "that's not my job" isn't in a minor league employee's vocabulary. I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm just giving some general background on life in a minor league front office.

[Ksyrup]

Well, first it's coffee and drycleaning, and then it's shopping for the boss's wife, and then...well, you know. Perhaps he was smart to leave now.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by samifan24

As someone who called games in the minors for three seasons, I can tell you that yes, that's exactly what a minor league broadcaster does on a daily basis.

You come in and do your "office work" of game notes, press releases and stat packs and also send information to the league or both clubhouses when necessary.

The game is really the downtime--you call your innings and write the game story. Anyone who has worked even one week in the minors knows this. It's always been this way.

I doubt another MiLB team will hire him to call games for them given the spectacular way he left his previous position and the fact that, you know, the job is pretty much the same everywhere.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. At what level did you call games for 3 years? When I was younger, I always aspired to be a broadcaster, and I probably could have done it, but I didn't know if I wanted to do the "climb".

What made you get out of the business? Assuming you aren't in the business anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by samifan24

the job is pretty much the same everywhere.

Except, of course, for those who are not team employees at all, such as with both the Braves AAA & A clubs.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Wow, that's pretty interesting. At what level did you call games for 3 years? When I was younger, I always aspired to be a broadcaster, and I probably could have done it, but I didn't know if I wanted to do the "climb".

What made you get out of the business? Assuming you aren't in the business anymore.

I spent a year in a collegiate summer league and two years in A ball. I got out of the business because it was really hard to make it a career. I worked as a full-time seasonal employee and had to find a retail job every off-season just to keep myself afloat financially.

During the season, most teams will have probably 10-15 interns in the office. During the off-season, the number of full-time employees drops to three or four depending on how many accounts people you have.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except, of course, for those who are not team employees at all, such as with both the Braves AAA & A clubs.

If you're referring to broadcasters that work for a radio station rather than a team, I'm afraid they are quite rare nowadays. Most teams can save money by having the play-by-play guy also handle PR, social media and some ticket sales. Throw in the fact that most play-by-play guys are college students or recent grads and a team can usually find someone willing to work for free to do the job.

[Ksyrup]

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are a few useful comments from the KLAW chat about RBIs that I think sums up the position of the more SABR-inclined folks around here:

Chris (Falmouth)
Can you explain why RBI is considered an archaic stat and what are the stats that should be paid more attention too?

Klaw (1:29 PM)
Your RBI total is a function of who hits in front of you - if you have more guys on base when you bat, you get more RBI opportunities. If you want to get a picture of an individual player's actual contribution to his team, you need to use stats that are just a function of his performance, not his teammates'. Among basic stats OBP and SLG are more useful than AVG or raw RBI totals, and there are advanced stats like wOBA and WAR (which includes fielding, but not always the same metrics) that give a more complete picture.

Jonathan (Wilimington)
Don't you think you've gone more or less completely overboard by saying the RBI is meaningless? It's not like saying W-L's are meaningless for a pitcher (which I agree with). RBI's are only meaningless as stats in the sense that they are susceptible to hitters having fluke years, both good and bad, and hence are not a true barometer of success. However, of course if someone like Cabrera, Pujols or Votto have a lot of RBI's it still speaks of their hitting prowess. Yes?

Klaw (1:38 PM)
What do RBI tell us that a basic stat like SLG doesn't? I'll answer: RBI tell us that they hit behind guys who got on base a lot for them. Not useful information.

Chris (Dallas, TX)
re: RBI. I think people freak out about saying they are "meaningless" because it implies the act of driving in a run is meaningless. Of course driving in runs is important, it is just not indicitave of a particular skill. That about sum it up?

Klaw (1:43 PM)
That's pretty good.

It seems to me that the last point is where the real argument, or maybe misunderstanding, is. Driving in a run is important because scoring runs is how you win a game, but it doesn't tell us anything about the batter that other, better stats can't, because RBI has no skill-related correlation (at least, none that stats like OBP and SLG don't already measure more accurately).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by samifan24

If you're referring to broadcasters that work for a radio station rather than a team, I'm afraid they are quite rare nowadays.

Could be, I certainly haven't spent any time looking franchise by franchise to see. The obvious exception came to mind pretty quickly simply because that's the norm for the two minor league teams I'm most familiar with.

[Ksyrup]

Here's another good comment:

mike (woodridge)
isn't the difference that early baseball statistics, such as wins and rbi, were focused on describing the events that determined the outcome of the game, whereas modern statistics is focused on events that are best fit to predict the outcome of future games? a difference between describing the past and predicting the future?

Klaw (1:49 PM)
I've never heard that before. Makes a lot of sense. I think the modern stats are also about isolating individual performance.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Here's another good comment:

Ya, definitely a good point.

I don't think anybody has ever (seriously) argued that pitcher A, with 16 wins, is a better option for the next season than pitcher B, with 12 wins, based on that criteria alone. That's not what that stat aims to do, and it never has. It's just a very simple way to log baseball history.

Same with RBIs, to a lesser extent. I understood when I was 8 years old in 1986 that RBIs depended a lot on who you have around you, and where you bat in the lineup. That's not a new discovery. It was just a way to tell you what happened in a baseball game. If you were a fan of a higher-scoring team, that had good hitters 1-3, you might think, "shit, our cleanup guy has a chance to drive in 150 this year!" It wasn't believed that those 150 RBIs proved he was better than a cleanup hitter on some other team, it was just an individual accomplishment that one might achieve.

[RedKingGold]

Phillies need to start praying to Jobu because no one in the lineup can hit the curveball.

[sterlingice]

I wish that were true, molson, but I just don't think it is even today. How many people did we hear last year saying how Greinke shouldn't win the Cy Young because he only had 16 wins, never mind that he had one of the top 2 or 3 WAR seasons of the past *decade*?

SI

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I wish that were true, molson, but I just don't think it is even today. How many people did we hear last year saying how Greinke shouldn't win the Cy Young because he only had 16 wins, never mind that he had one of the top 2 or 3 WAR seasons of the past *decade*?

SI

Not only that, but RBIs have always been used by a good number of people as a way to show a player's overall value and clutch hitting ability.

I believe it was Whitey Herzog (could be wrong) who wrote in his book that Fred McGriff was a good example of a guy that just wasn't a good clutch hitter because he led the league in home runs but failed to reach 100 rbis.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Phillies need to start praying to Jobu because no one in the lineup can hit the curveball.

I just realized a couple days ago that Pedro Cerrano is the allstate guy.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just realized a couple days ago that Pedro Cerrano is the allstate guy.

He was also the President on 24.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by samifan24

He was also the President on 24.

It took me most of the first season to realize that was him. Yes, I am ashamed of myself.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I believe it was Whitey Herzog (could be wrong) who wrote in his book that Fred McGriff was a good example of a guy that just wasn't a good clutch hitter because he led the league in home runs but failed to reach 100 rbis.

As much as I enjoyed Crime Dog during his time in the ATL, it probably bears noting here that his 2 out RISP & Late/Close relative OPS numbers were 88-89 in his career. Basically saying that he underperformed vs his total numbers in those situations. Only thing I'm not sure of is what average difference in those across all players actually is, in other words, is it normal that players underperform those situations and to what extent.
Fred McGriff Career Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

It seems possible to me that Herzog (or whomever) could have been drawing a reasonable conclusion & attributing it to rawer stats but was actually getting it right based on observation.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just realized a couple days ago that Pedro Cerrano is the allstate guy.

I just realized that. RIGHT. NOW.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just realized a couple days ago that Pedro Cerrano is the allstate guy.

Straight car, I insure it very much.

Swerve car, underwriters are afraid.

[lordscarlet]

The Nationals announced in a conference call on Friday that right-hander Stephen Strasburg has a significant tear in his ulnar collateral ligament and will likely require Tommy John surgery.

Strasburg has torn elbow ligament | MLB.com: News

[molson]

Originally Posted by Poli

I just realized that. RIGHT. NOW.

Same here.

My mind is blown.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Strasburg has torn elbow ligament | MLB.com: News

Looks like Strasburg needs Tommy John. Just terrible news for the Nationals and baseball. Of course these days plenty of guys come back from TJ surgery but there's always the risk they'll never be the same.

[molson]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Strasburg has torn elbow ligament | MLB.com: News

Damn. So that wipes him out for 2011, most likely.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by molson

Damn. So that wipes him out for 2011, most likely.

Poof.

And another pitching phenom goes down. When will GM's learn not to spend absurd amount of cash on pitchers.

[molson]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Poof.

And another pitching phenom goes down. When will GM's learn not to spend absurd amount of cash on pitchers.

Ya, this is going to end up hurting the draft stock/bonuses of young pitchers v. position players, I think.

Why not let someone else develop pitchers and take the risk, and use the bulk of your resources on more stable position players? Stockpile those, and you can put together strong MLB pitching staffs through trades and free agency, aquiring guys who have made it through this early career "danger zone".

I wonder if that kind of already happens - what's the ROI of drafting position players v. pitchers? It seems like there are more "star" position players with the team that originally drafted them than "star" pitchers, but it would be interesting to see that all broken down.

[ISiddiqui]

Ouch... sucks for the Nats.

[miked]

I wonder if any of this can be attributed to completely baby-ing these pitchers? At some point, if you keep limiting the amount of pitches thrown, is it possible that you make them more sensitive to potential injuries? We keep seeing guys that are "careful" and on pitch counts and the such...and they are still getting hurt. I wonder if it's at a higher clip than just non-phenom pitchers who apparently have little need for pitch counts.

[lordscarlet]

On the upside...

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by miked

I wonder if any of this can be attributed to completely baby-ing these pitchers? At some point, if you keep limiting the amount of pitches thrown, is it possible that you make them more sensitive to potential injuries? We keep seeing guys that are "careful" and on pitch counts and the such...and they are still getting hurt. I wonder if it's at a higher clip than just non-phenom pitchers who apparently have little need for pitch counts.

I mean I have no idea how it correlates but it always struck me has crazy how the old time pitchers who went out where every 3 days could escape without these serious injuries.

Granted, perhaps guys were getting seriously hurt and we would never know about it but it makes you wonder.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I mean I have no idea how it correlates but it always struck me has crazy how the old time pitchers who went out where every 3 days could escape without these serious injuries.

Granted, perhaps guys were getting seriously hurt and we would never know about it but it makes you wonder.

I think those guys didn't have access to training/pitching coaches that pushed the arm into doing things that it just can't handle doing. (not throwing a lot of pitches, but throwing pitches in a manner that, while very effective, destroys the arm).

A Nolan Ryan-type comes around once-in-a-generation, but so many others today are pushed to that kind of velocity and can't handle it.

(Of course, I'm just making this shit up off the top my head, so who knows)

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I mean I have no idea how it correlates but it always struck me has crazy how the old time pitchers who went out where every 3 days could escape without these serious injuries.

Granted, perhaps guys were getting seriously hurt and we would never know about it but it makes you wonder.

Originally Posted by molson

I think those guys didn't have access to training/pitching coaches that pushed the arm into doing things that it just can't handle doing. (not throwing a lot of pitches, but throwing pitches in a manner that, while very effective, destroys the arm).

A Nolan Ryan-type comes around once-in-a-generation, but so many others today are pushed to that kind of velocity and can't handle it.

(Of course, I'm just making this shit up off the top my head, so who knows)

There's a Nats message board that I read occasionally that has someone saying that this happened soon after the Nats staff had him change the way he delivers his changeup. The person saying this also says it happens a lot when they "add a new pitch" or change how a young pitcher delivers a pitch.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I mean I have no idea how it correlates but it always struck me has crazy how the old time pitchers who went out where every 3 days could escape without these serious injuries.

Granted, perhaps guys were getting seriously hurt and we would never know about it but it makes you wonder.

I don't think too many of the old time pitchers were throwing 100 MPH+ fastballs. I don't know what you could do with those guys - taking a few MPH off the fastball clearly makes them a less effective pitcher and also the change in mechanics could probably hurt the arm even more. But there's no way right now I would throw serious money at any power pitcher in the draft, the chance that he's going to flame out is just too great.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just realized a couple days ago that Pedro Cerrano is the allstate guy.

And Jamie Moyer was Eddie Harris.

"Are you telling me Jesus Christ couldn't hit a curveball?"

[RedKingGold]

Somehow, the Phillies will be blamed for this.

[RedKingGold]

Seriously though, is Tommy John that bad anymore? I'd think an injury to the shoulder would be much more serious, especially when the arm injury is closer to the forearm.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Somehow, the Phillies will be blamed for this.

I think you mean Phillies fans.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Seriously though, is Tommy John that bad anymore? I'd think an injury to the shoulder would be much more serious, especially when the arm injury is closer to the forearm.

Ya, it seems like the number they throw out now is 90% chance of recoverying fully. Which is still pretty low, really, a 1/10 chance that he's basically done. And he loses 1+ seasons.

[Logan]

I feel bad for every Nats fan...except one.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

I feel bad for every Nats fan...except one.

Obama?

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Seriously though, is Tommy John that bad anymore? I'd think an injury to the shoulder would be much more serious, especially when the arm injury is closer to the forearm.

Well, he's 67 and hasn't pitched for 21 years, but he's surely better than Chan Ho Park... oh, wait.

Can you name 5 pitchers who have been successful starters after Tommy John surgery?

[Chubby]

where'sthe thread where people were talking about players electively getting TJ surgery because it made them better/stronger?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Well, he's 67 and hasn't pitched for 21 years, but he's surely better than Chan Ho Park... oh, wait.

Can you name 5 pitchers who have been successful starters after Tommy John surgery?

LOL.

And let's see:

Tommy John surgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not an inspiring list there towards the bottom.

Though Strasburg's early start would definitely seem to give him a shot at the all time Tommy John surgery record (THREE TJ surgeries, pulled off by former Boston Red Sox closer - albiet for five minutes - Chad Fox)

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Chubby

where'sthe thread where people were talking about players electively getting TJ surgery because it made them better/stronger?

I think you're looking for the Darwin awards thread.

[Travis]

Chris Carpenter, Shaun Marcum, Francisco Liriano and Josh Johnson all seem to be recent examples of guys who have made full (or are awfully close) recoveries from Tommy John surgery. Add in Jordan Zimmerman and Kyle Drabek for youngsters who are either just coming back (Zimmerman) or have been fairly successful in the minors (Drabek) this year and have had the procedure.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Well, he's 67 and hasn't pitched for 21 years, but he's surely better than Chan Ho Park... oh, wait.

Can you name 5 pitchers who have been successful starters after Tommy John surgery?

Define "successful". Nick Adenhart before he passed away was fully recovered from his TJ surgery at the end of his HS career ansd seemingly had the talent and ability to be a top end pitcher.

There have been a ton of others, of course, although I am drawing a blank right now. But I think the success rate for returning fully after the surgery is pretty good. I have eevn heard some pitchers say they feel the ligament (and arm) is actually stronger than prior to the surgery.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by molson

Obama?

Nope, he's a Sox fan. Nats fans surely won't forget that.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Define "successful". Nick Adenhart before he passed away was fully recovered from his TJ surgery at the end of his HS career ansd seemingly had the talent and ability to be a top end pitcher.

There have been a ton of others, of course, although I am drawing a blank right now. But I think the success rate for returning fully after the surgery is pretty good. I have eevn heard some pitchers say they feel the ligament (and arm) is actually stronger than prior to the surgery.

I would define successful as someone who performed at their pre-TJ potential for 3-5 years post-surgery.

I would say John, Smoltz, Carpenter, Hudson (though he's really only 1 year in), and Burnett. Josh Johnson, Liriano, and possibly Anibal Sanchez are definitely the current poster children, though its still early. Ryan Dempster may be on the right track.

I'm not saying its not possible for a starter to come back from Tommy John surgery, but its not like there's a long list of them who have come back and been successful starters. Any person who gets it electively is an idiot and the doctor deserves to be jailed.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Seriously though, is Tommy John that bad anymore? I'd think an injury to the shoulder would be much more serious, especially when the arm injury is closer to the forearm.

I think it depends on your mechanics. Having had bilateral shoulder reconstructions and ankle surgery that is very similar to TJ surgery (in some ways the elbow and ankle are similar-ish joints, and how they fix the ulnar collateral ligament with TJ is similar to how they fixed my ankle via what's known as a Crisman-Snook procedure), I'd think TJ is worse than shoulder surgery. But I think at the end of the day it would come down to how you throw. There are some pitchers who seem to put more stress on their shoulders and some who put more on the elbow.

Either way, bummer for Strasburg and the Nats.

/tk

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Logan

I feel bad for every Nats fan...except one.

+1

Originally Posted by molson

I think you mean Phillies fans.

Beat me to the punch.

I hope he comes back healthy and 100%.

[k0ruptr]

Matt Morris was decent after TJ Surgery as well.. Pretty sure he almost won the cy young even one year. If I remember correctly.